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MNSCI .22 Prone Rifle PR60 & PR40, 50m & 100yd, Aggregate Shoot next Sat & Sun.

  • 15-08-2010 10:28pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭


    Full Details confirmed for the MNSCI .22 Prone Rifle Weekend Competition to be held at Midlands over next weekend on Saturday and Sunday, 21st & 22nd August, at 50m and 100yd ranges. Announcement on the NTSA website here: MNSCI Weekend Aggregate 50m & 100yd Competition (No Online Detail Booking Needed - Just be there & Sign in on Saturday morning!;))
    The Midlands National Shooting Centre of Ireland are running a Prone Rifle Weekend Aggregate competition to take place on Sat 21st and Sunday 22nd August 2010 at the MNSCI ranges in Blueball, Co. Offaly. This is the first competition of this size to be held in many years and the first competition incorporating 100 yards shooting in almost ten years.
    There will be no pre-booking for this competition which will be an aggregate of 200 shots equally divided between 50m and 100 yards. The 50m element will be shot using the Gehmann target changers and the 100 yards will be shot on NSRA three bull cards. Details on the 50m and 100 yard ranges will run simultaneously.
    First details at 10:30am both days.
    Course of fire:
    Saturday 21st August
    60 shots at 50m and 40 shots at 100 yards Sunday 22nd August 40 shots at 50m and 60 shots at 100 yards
    Detail timings:
    Saturday 21st August
    50m details every 90 minutes (75 min) on Gehmann boxes 5 shots per bull 100 yard details every 35 minutes (25 min) on NSRA three bull targets 10 shots per bull Sunday 22nd August 50m details every 60 minutes (50 min) on Gehmann boxes 5 shots per bull 100 yard details every 35 minutes (25 min) on NSRA three bull targets 10 shots per bull
    Booking:
    Details will be available on a first come, first served basis. Details, Firing Points and targets will be allocated by the stats officer of the day.
    Prizes:
    Weekend Aggregate: 1st to 3rd overall and 1st to 3rd in classes B, C and D (score ex 2000) Weekend 50m Aggregate: 1st to 3rd overall and 1st to 3rd in classes B, C and D (score ex 1000) Weekend 100 yard Aggregate: 1st to 3rd overall and 1st to 3rd in classes B, C and D (score ex 1000) Saturday Aggregate: 1st place only (score ex 1000) Sunday Aggregate: 1st place only (score ex 1000)
    Entry Fee:
    €30 per entry for entire aggregate competition.
     
    Please Note:
    In the interest of orderly detail changeovers, competitors are required to be ready to move onto the firing point before the end of the preceding detail. The outgoing detail MUST move their kit to the back of the firing point before collecting their targets. Rifles can be assembled in the designated area, but bolts must be removed or breech flags inserted at all times before commencement of the detail. Assembled rifles may not be left unattended unless cased. Targets must have the competitor’s name, firing point and detail start time marked clearly before commencement of the detail. It is the responsibility of individual competitors to ensure that their targets are securely fixed to the backing boards.

    Details on the NTSA website.

    See you all there!

    dC:cool:


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    It's going to be a great course of fire. Only €30 for the whole weekend. That's an excellent entry fee. Hopefully we'll see a load of people there because this should be excellent. Given the 100 yard stuff, the prizes are well open as well. Really looking forward to it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    I assume this is ISSF type shooting?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    I assume this is ISSF type shooting?

    Broadly speaking, aye. Being shot on Gehmann boxes, the 50m stages will be pretty much pure ISSF. The 100 yard stages are a British NSRA style event. in large part, it imitates the weekend aggregate at Bisley, so it should be great fun. Some of the lads will be fresh back (the weekend agg was this weekend) so they'll hopefully be able to put in a decent show.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    I'd forgotten how hard 100yd is with iron sights! Once I got sighted in I was OK, but it took a long time to get there. It's particularly hard when your spotting scope only shows holes which are two rounds in size or which break a line! :(

    Still, I had fun and enjoyed a good day's shooting. I'm looking forward to tomorrow.

    If anyone's in Midlands tomorrow, come over and say hi.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I seem to remember the worst of it being that you damn near need a power drill to get the rearsights wound up enough to go from 50m to 100yds in any sort of reasonable time :D
    25 yds indoors to 50m outdoors was only ever a few clicks because they're on either side of the apogee, but 100yds, you're really having to crank it on a bit.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭Coronal


    Some of us never had that problem, owing to having 2 clicks per ring at 50 m :P 20, on the other hand...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    100 yards is not pretty. I could get settled and started shooting tens (Better than I was managing at 50m, but that's another rant) but then you'd miss a wind flick, and while it might punish you for a nine at 50m, it might cost you a seven at a hundred! I shot on a gust I didn't see and got a six! I'd love to do more of it to improve my 50m wind reading. Must try it again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    It's tough alright, but there are a few things that could help a lot. Having backer cards and holes cut in the target board behind the bulls help pick out the shot holes. My biggest problem was being able to pick out my target; I had to pin the target over the number to get it high enough so I wasn't getting too much of the ground baffles in my sights for the bottom bull. The numbers need to be a lot bigger and alternately coloured to help.

    There's a lot of wind between you and the target ;)


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Current scores:

    Name|Saturday 50m 60shot|Saturday 100yd 40shot|Sunday 50m 40shot|Sunday 100yd 60shot
    Alan de Lacy|551|362||
    Conor McDermottroe|577|383||549
    David Franklin|555|354|384|
    Ray Kane|569|366||557
    Joe Kinane|519|||
    PJ Harding|573|359||543
    Kealan Symes|537|355||540
    Sean Baldwin|581|375||552
    Dave O'Reilly|524|325||
    Mike Madigan|546|344|369|
    Ray Reilly|576|347||
    Stephen Hogan|565|360||
    Peter Daynes||||
    Mark Kearney||||


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Nicely done at 100 there Conor, and the 50 wasn't bad either!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Conor had a 377 in the 50m (with my rifle ;)) and I had a 370 today. AFAIK, Conor won the Saturday competition and it was looking good for Sean Baldwin to win the aggregate.

    Not enough scores in by the time I left to be sure, but I must say well done to Midlands for running this, it was a fantastic weekend's shooting. Fair play to fat_tony who's sights wouldn't click up to 100 yards, so having inserted a shim overnight, proceeded to shoot 100 shots at 100 yards and 40 shots at 50m today.

    Serious stamina called on to do that :cool:


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Full scores:

    Competitor|Club|Class|Saturday 50m 60 shot|Saturday 100yd 40 shot|Saturday Aggregate|Sunday 50m 40 shot|Sunday 100yd 60 shot|Sunday Aggregate|50m Aggregate|100yd Aggregate|Weekend Aggregate
    Alan de Lacy|MNSCI|C|551|362|913|373|536|909|924|898|1822
    Conor McDermottroe|MNSCI|A|577|383|960|377|549|926|954|932|1886
    Dave O'Reilly|DFST|D|524|325|849|364|503|867|888|828|1716
    David Franklin|DURC|A|555|354|909|384|544|928|939|898|1837
    Joe Kinane|RRPC|D|519|342|861|347|504|851|866|846|1712
    Kealan Symes|RRPC|B|537|355|892|370|540|910|907|895|1802
    Mark Kearney|DURC|B|DNS|DNS|0|DNS|565|565|0|565|565
    Mike Madigan|RRPC|B|546|349|895|369|537|906|915|886|1801
    Peter Daynes|DURC|B|DNS|DNS|0|361|547|908|361|547|908
    PJ Harding|DRC|B|573|359|932|379|543|922|952|902|1854
    Ray Kane|DFST|A|569|366|935|388|557|945|957|923|1880
    Ray Reilly|DURC|A|576|347|923|384|545|929|960|892|1852
    Sean Baldwin|DFST|A|581|375|956|387|552|939|968|927|1895
    Stephen Hogan|MNSCI|B|565|360|925|DNS|DNS|0|565|360|925


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭FLOYDSTER


    Well done Conor!!, and to all involved in organising the shoot!, I hope to make the next one!!;)


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    FLOYDSTER wrote: »
    Well done Conor!!

    Thanks!
    FLOYDSTER wrote: »
    and to all involved in organising the shoot!, I hope to make the next one!!;)

    Uh-oh... :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    That was hard. I am now sore. However, managed to salvage a remotely useful match. Lost an eight when a wasp landed on my finger during the 50m today, so could have easily been better. Still, there'll be next time. At least I improved on yesterday. Was a great match. Fantastic to get that much shooting in a week. Easily doubled what I'd already done!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Just a few thoughts on the inaugural Midlands weekend aggregate.

    First, didn't talk to anyone who didn't think it was a great idea (had to get that out of the way first ;)). Everyone enjoyed it immensely and took something positive away from the experience.

    Shooting at 100 yards took a little getting used to, but most people improved on the second day (although some who will remain nameless had a nice calm detail on Saturday :)). There sure is a lot of wind from 50m out to 100 yards :eek:.

    Numbers need to be higher. It was organised so that people could always find a free firing point, but there tended to be a predomination at one distance or another which made it a bit unbalanced.

    Pre-booking of details needs to be implemented for the next time and a longer run in for entries. Indeed there could be entries from the UK if it were advertised there, as it's great value for money.

    A few more volunteers would help take some of the load off the Midlands lads who were swamped with work at times. Also at least a second stats officer so that one person isn't stuck all weekend going blind from staring at targets ;). Electronic targets would be great :).

    I hadn't seen the new layout for 50m on the Gehmann boxes, but I was absolutely gobsmacked at the work done on that range. The target gallery was an absolutely fantastic bit of work which I believe is down to ezridax, I never got the chance to say well done to him, so I'm doing it now.

    200 match shots in two days is very intensive and tiring, but I'm sure the benefits will be apparent over the coming months.

    Finally, well done to all who competed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    I am creaking and sore, baffled and disoriented, so it's just like one really big match. Hopefully being baffled and disoriented is just part of the process of improvement now. :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    rrpc wrote: »
    Just a few thoughts on the inaugural Midlands weekend aggregate.

    First, didn't talk to anyone who didn't think it was a great idea (had to get that out of the way first ;)). Everyone enjoyed it immensely and took something positive away from the experience.

    Shooting at 100 yards took a little getting used to, but most people improved on the second day (although some who will remain nameless had a nice calm detail on Saturday :)). There sure is a lot of wind from 50m out to 100 yards :eek:.

    Numbers need to be higher. It was organised so that people could always find a free firing point, but there tended to be a predomination at one distance or another which made it a bit unbalanced.

    Pre-booking of details needs to be implemented for the next time and a longer run in for entries. Indeed there could be entries from the UK if it were advertised there, as it's great value for money.

    A few more volunteers would help take some of the load off the Midlands lads who were swamped with work at times. Also at least a second stats officer so that one person isn't stuck all weekend going blind from staring at targets ;). Electronic targets would be great :).

    I hadn't seen the new layout for 50m on the Gehmann boxes, but I was absolutely gobsmacked at the work done on that range. The target gallery was an absolutely fantastic bit of work which I believe is down to ezridax, I never got the chance to say well done to him, so I'm doing it now.

    200 match shots in two days is very intensive and tiring, but I'm sure the benefits will be apparent over the coming months.

    Finally, well done to all who competed.

    If you only knew the sheer amount of manhours Ezridax and co have put in free gratis.

    Legends :D


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    If you only knew the sheer amount of manhours Ezridax and co have put in free gratis.

    Legends :D

    I've done a small amount of work improving DURC and rrpc has worked on improving the range in Rathdrum. Anyone who has done even a little bit of work maintaining or improving a range can tell that there was a massive amount of work put into the Midlands ranges.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Don't suppose anyone took photos? I keep hearing great things and I'm dying to see the new range!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Sparks wrote: »
    Don't suppose anyone took photos? I keep hearing great things and I'm dying to see the new range!

    You need to get off your arse and get to a range! ;) Wasn't that wedding lark supposed to help when herself got sick of you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    That was the plan... :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Sparks wrote: »
    That was the plan... :D

    Surely her tolerance can't be *that* high...



    Yesyesyes, she did marry you. Blah blah blah.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Well, I should be able to get out to WTSC this week at least once to do some AP shooting. I even have permission! Work will probably stop me getting to DURC on thursday though :( Stupid US timeshifting...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Those DURC evenings are good alright. Was teaching Ais to shoot kneeling last week. Shot a 92 for her first string. Definitely promising beginnings.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    rrpc wrote: »
    Numbers need to be higher.

    Going by the most recent classification list, and from the results, the biggest "hole" in the numbers is at the lower end. There were only 3 competitors from classes C and D.

    Perhaps we need more focus on getting beginners to competitions?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    IRLConor wrote: »
    Going by the most recent classification list, and from the results, the biggest "hole" in the numbers is at the lower end. There were only 3 competitors from classes C and D.

    Perhaps we need more focus on getting beginners to competitions?

    Y'know, it's close enough to the GB Jr International that we could invite the attendees from that to come to Ireland and shoot here at this; that'd add one or two hundred shooters to the mix. And we've been asked, every single year for the past decade, to run a match that the US and SA and other teams could come to for just that kind of thing...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Sparks wrote: »
    Y'know, it's close enough to the GB Jr International that we could invite the attendees from that to come to Ireland and shoot here at this; that'd add one or two hundred shooters to the mix. And we've been asked, every single year for the past decade, to run a match that the US and SA and other teams could come to for just that kind of thing...

    We then have the delightful logistics dance of trying to run two hundred people through a course of fire with eight firing points.

    "Welcome to the DURC 50m Open prone event. The competition consists of sixty consecutive competition shots. You are allowed unlimited sighting shots before the competition shots, however they are included in the time limit. The total time allowed is eight minutes."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Sadly, it's going to be a dribble or a firehose IWM, no matter what. You might start by just inviting the US team and the GB team over and expand as you go, but that's more a trial run than a proper international really, and unless you could expand it later, you'd risk insulting the other teams.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Sparks wrote: »
    Sadly, it's going to be a dribble or a firehose IWM, no matter what. You might start by just inviting the US team and the GB team over and expand as you go, but that's more a trial run than a proper international really, and unless you could expand it later, you'd risk insulting the other teams.

    It's a question of facilities. We don't have them. We could do it in Comber or the like, but that's it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    Sparks wrote: »
    Don't suppose anyone took photos? I keep hearing great things and I'm dying to see the new range!

    I took a couple of the 1200, but I said I would not post them until it was finished.
    There will be an album of pics posted then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    It's a question of facilities. We don't have them. We could do it in Comber or the like, but that's it.
    Well, we've run nationals up there before... but that wouldn't help the numbers in Midlands :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Sparks wrote: »
    Well, we've run nationals up there before... but that wouldn't help the numbers in Midlands :(

    Yep, and if you run it up there, it becomes an NI event, as feck all shooters from south of the border will travel for it. It's painful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    That's why we needed the europass directive to demand it be the sole document needed to travel and shoot with :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Sparks wrote: »
    That's why we needed the europass directive to demand it be the sole document needed to travel and shoot with :(

    That'll be nice alright, but I'd be very surprised if many more people started travelling.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    That'll be nice alright, but I'd be very surprised if many more people started travelling.
    For a start we could advertise it in 'The Rifleman' (NSRA mag) which would reach the UK guys and start from there. If you started at 8am, you could run seven 60 shot details up to 18:30. That's 70 through in a day with ten firing points. Not too shabby ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    There are loads of 50m Prone Ranges, with ten firing points a piece, all around the country,

    Eagles,
    DRC,
    BRC,
    ECSC,
    MNSCI
    FRC

    that's 60 firing points right there.

    Whereas they all have covered firing points you would have to deal with the rounds travelling through the dreaded "outside" with unponderables such as "wind" and "air".

    If you had 200 competitors, just have a lotto to decide who shoots where and kick it off - need a few heads per club to run the match and submit scores to 'central processing'

    I've seen 200 people shooting Prone in Bisley, just lying in a line in a field.

    If it's that they want to come here for a big shoot then you can do it - if it's that you want them to go somewhere specific for a shoot - you can't do it.

    B'Man


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Sparks wrote: »
    Y'know, it's close enough to the GB Jr International that we could invite the attendees from that to come to Ireland and shoot here at this; that'd add one or two hundred shooters to the mix. And we've been asked, every single year for the past decade, to run a match that the US and SA and other teams could come to for just that kind of thing...

    TBH, I was thinking that if we added 10 class C/D shooters and 5 class A/B shooters we'd have doubled the attendance and provided more competition for those shooting lower scores (thereby helping them improve).

    As much as I'd love to see 200 or 70 or whatever extra shooters, that can only really happen if overseas shooters come here in large numbers. I can't see those numbers jumping through the paperwork hoops any time soon.

    We can get 10-15 more shooters out of the domestic circuit with a lot less grief and that would double this year's attendance. That would make it the largest ISSF/NSRA/NTSA-style competition I've seen south of the border in the last decade, so I don't think that goal is lacking in ambition!

    EDIT: My rough, back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that Midlands, in the configuration it was set up in over the weekend, would have a capacity for about 50 PR60 competitors a day and fewer 40@100yd competitors.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Bananaman wrote: »
    There are loads of 50m Prone Ranges, with ten firing points a piece, all around the country,

    Eagles,
    DRC,
    BRC,
    ECSC,
    MNSCI
    FRC

    that's 60 firing points right there.
    Good and all as it sounds, you're supposed to fire on the same range if it's to be a proper fair match ;). BRC and DRC have 8 apiece btw and ECSC has a max of 9; the bays are just a bit too narrow to squeeze 4 in. Fermoy has a 40' container for 50m prone rifle so it's the same as DRC; though you could try shooting from under the benches on the BR range at a pinch. :eek:
    Whereas they all have covered firing points you would have to deal with the rounds travelling through the dreaded "outside" with unponderables such as "wind" and "air".
    If you know of a 50m or 100 yard indoor range, I'm all ears :D
    I've seen 200 people shooting Prone in Bisley, just lying in a line in a field.
    It's actually a tarmac 'road' that's used as a firing point. I've shot on it many times; nice and cushy for the elbows :D.
    If it's that they want to come here for a big shoot then you can do it - if it's that you want them to go somewhere specific for a shoot - you can't do it.
    B'Man
    If you've got the numbers, there's always a means to do it. For example you could run an extra day and seggregate classes so that each class shoots together and thus has equality of conditions.

    I think getting 50-70 would be achievable in the short term, once you get there I doubt it would be too much of an imposition to enlarge the facilities. Midlands has another 50m range with capacity for an extra 8-10 firing points. The 100 yards could be expanded into the 200 yard range easily by just moving the target line forwards.

    Wouldn't it be great to have such problems? ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    IRLConor wrote: »
    TBH, I was thinking that if we added 10 class C/D shooters and 5 class A/B shooters we'd have doubled the attendance and provided more competition for those shooting lower scores (thereby helping them improve).
    That would undoubtedly have to be the first port of call. There are forty odd people in the classification and it should be possible to have thirty of them turn up.
    As much as I'd love to see 200 or 70 or whatever extra shooters, that can only really happen if overseas shooters come here in large numbers. I can't see those numbers jumping through the paperwork hoops any time soon.
    The entry fee for the Bisley Championship Aggregate (280 competition shots) was £92.60 this year. The entry fee for the Weekend Aggregate (120 shots) was £27.50, and you also have the registration fee which was anything between £5.50 and £22.50 depending on your NSRA membership. If you include the cost of the visitor's permit, the cost for the 200 competition shots in Midlands would be €70 (£58) which is very competitive. You just include the permit form with the entry form and handle the logistics from this end.
    We can get 10-15 more shooters out of the domestic circuit with a lot less grief and that would double this year's attendance. That would make it the largest ISSF/NSRA/NTSA-style competition I've seen south of the border in the last decade, so I don't think that goal is lacking in ambition!
    But that doesn't mean you don't at least try to get overseas entries. I think last weekend coincided with the UK bank holiday, so there's an additional point in its favour.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    There are loads of 50m Prone Ranges, with ten firing points a piece, all around the country
    Can't do that B'man, you'd be breaking one of the first ISSF rules, namely that everyone competes on a level playing field - not one guy shooting in calm gray conditions and another is wrestling with mirage and blinding sunshine on a different range on the far side of the country, while a third is slowly drowning as his mat sinks through the floor of a third range in the middle of a torrential downpour.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    IRLConor wrote: »
    TBH, I was thinking that if we added 10 class C/D shooters and 5 class A/B shooters we'd have doubled the attendance and provided more competition for those shooting lower scores (thereby helping them improve).

    As much as I'd love to see 200 or 70 or whatever extra shooters, that can only really happen if overseas shooters come here in large numbers. I can't see those numbers jumping through the paperwork hoops any time soon.

    We can get 10-15 more shooters out of the domestic circuit with a lot less grief and that would double this year's attendance. That would make it the largest ISSF/NSRA/NTSA-style competition I've seen south of the border in the last decade, so I don't think that goal is lacking in ambition!

    EDIT: My rough, back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that Midlands, in the configuration it was set up in over the weekend, would have a capacity for about 50 PR60 competitors a day and fewer 40@100yd competitors.

    I don't know what the number of new entrants to PR60 are (I'm discounting the ones who sign up in freshers week and are never seen again) but it has to be very low.

    People are too quick to throw up reasons why you cannot do something - rather than try to come up with circumstances under which you could do it.

    To increase your numbers you need to attract the Sporting Rifle shooters - there are an order of magnitude more people shooting sporting rifle than shooting PR60 at the moment. If you could even get the Prone shooters from one club e.g. Eagles - to enter a competition - it would be double what you have altogether in PR60 competition in the entire country (and they are VERY good).

    I think the best way to do that is the cross-discipline shoots like they have in DRC - where you have both PR60 and Sporting Rifle on the same day so people have an option to try the other. However, these need to be planned with better co-ordination.

    NASRPC has already been trying to contact the NTSA Rifle Co-ordinator to look into this (aswell as trying to co-ordinate the 2011 calendars to not clash) to no avail. (Same with Pistol)

    B'Man


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    I don't know what the number of new entrants to PR60 are (I'm discounting the ones who sign up in freshers week and are never seen again) but it has to be very low.
    It really isn't - there are a good 50-60 new entrants to PR60 in DURC each year who would shoot regularly (once a week or once a fortnight) in DURC; they just never get in a car and drive half-way round Wicklow to shoot at other ranges because it doesn't appeal to them, for various reasons which include (but are not by any means limited to):
    • The competitions not being promoted enough to a wider audience
    • The competitions not being promoted enough to the potential shooters
    • The potential shooters not knowing what they'd be getting into
    • The potential shooters not knowing what level of proficiency they need to be at
    • The potential shooters not knowing what equipment they need to own
    • The potential shooters just not thinking it's worth it to drive to the top of a remote Wicklow hill to shoot for a prize that they don't really want all that much (those who actually value the prizes as accomplishments almost never need encouragement to go to matches)

    All those are utterly fixable though, it's just that noone wants to fix the last one (raise the cost of a match by a tenner and put all the extra money raised in entry fees into cash prizes, and you'll get nothing but complaints and a fall-off in entries); and the former all take man-hours to fix and those are like hens teeth these days.

    The electronic targets have done more to drive up competition in the last year or two than most stuff, to be honest, with the exception of the range work Ezri's been doing with the others in Midlands.
    People are too quick to throw up reasons why you cannot do something - rather than try to come up with circumstances under which you could do it.
    You've got to remember - we're dealing with people who're not pushed to go to a match right now. So we have to sell, not berate people for not wanting to go; at least, if we want to drive the numbers up. This is a case where you have to pull, not push.
    To increase your numbers you need to attract the Sporting Rifle shooters - there are an order of magnitude more people shooting sporting rifle than shooting PR60 at the moment. If you could even get the Prone shooters from one club e.g. Eagles - to enter a competition - it would be double what you have altogether in PR60 competition in the entire country (and they are VERY good).
    At what they do, yes, but what do we do if they show up, score lower than the 17-year-olds coming in off their first match, and get ticked off and go home? That then poisons the well for the next time. And that has happened, both here and abroad - it's a more common problem than you'd think. We've seen the top shooters in one discipline come into another, get beaten by a large margin by juniors and then vanish as a result.

    If you're going to do a cross-discipline shoot, you've got to do a cross-discipline shoot; not an ISSF shoot where you dump people in unaware of what they're going into. They have to have a chance to get familiar with the target and the course of fire and the rules, and get an idea of what they'll be doing. Otherwise, it's utterly unfair. (And it's not just ISSF - the same applies to all the shooting sports).

    Besides which, you have to ask - are you trying to run a large ISSF match or a large cross-discipline match here? (Personally, I think there's more than enough room to run both, and both would be successful and desirable; but both are completely seperate things).
    NASRPC has already been trying to contact the NTSA Rifle Co-ordinator to look into this (aswell as trying to co-ordinate the 2011 calendars to not clash) to no avail. (Same with Pistol)
    Not sure you'll ever get the calendars to not clash - and that's not the end of the world. It'd be nice if the larger events didn't clash, like the nationals and so forth, so that PR efforts don't compete; but even that's not likely to be easy since there are only so many weekends to use and everyone's trying to avoid the GAA and IRFU finals and the like, and noone wants to shoot on bank holiday weekends as they're off with family and sleeping.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Bananaman wrote: »
    I don't know what the number of new entrants to PR60 are (I'm discounting the ones who sign up in freshers week and are never seen again) but it has to be very low.
    You actually get quite a few every year, sometimes as much as ten, but you also get a corresponding drop off at the other end as guys leave college and get involved in work commitments etc. There's also the whole rigmarole of getting gear which is a bit of a shock when you've been using club gear. Some of the non college clubs have gear, but many don't so there's a big cost inherent in joining a club and getting gear.
    People are too quick to throw up reasons why you cannot do something - rather than try to come up with circumstances under which you could do it.
    Nope, you look at the difficulties and deal with them in a realistic manner. Having enough firing points isn't a big enough problem yet, but it's one that can be dealt with if and when it arises. In an earlier post, I gave a couple of different options of doing that.
    To increase your numbers you need to attract the Sporting Rifle shooters - there are an order of magnitude more people shooting sporting rifle than shooting PR60 at the moment. If you could even get the Prone shooters from one club e.g. Eagles - to enter a competition - it would be double what you have altogether in PR60 competition in the entire country (and they are VERY good).
    I know the guys shooting sporter and there are certainly some very good shots who have done very well with prone rifle when they've tried it. Invariably though, when asked, they're not prepared to get the equipment or put in the training. I've had some long discussions with the best sporting rifle people and that's the answer I always get. They're winning everything in sporting rifle and aren't prepared not to be top dog when they transfer to another discipline.
    I think the best way to do that is the cross-discipline shoots like they have in DRC - where you have both PR60 and Sporting Rifle on the same day so people have an option to try the other. However, these need to be planned with better co-ordination.
    We do this in Rathdrum as well and that's how we see how good some of the guys are, and that's where I've had those conversations. To the best of my knowledge I know of only four people over the last 15 years who've transferred.
    NASRPC has already been trying to contact the NTSA Rifle Co-ordinator to look into this (aswell as trying to co-ordinate the 2011 calendars to not clash) to no avail. (Same with Pistol)

    B'Man
    I remember that email which was referring to calendar clashes rather than cross discipline shooting. There is only one person currently who shoots both sporting and prone rifle, so we were a bit bemused by the email tbh. The 2011 calendar hasn't been finalised yet and perhaps you're not aware that the NTSA calendar is a coordinated calendar derived from the individual club's calendars. It says this clearly on the NTSA website on the calendar page. The NTSA only run the National championships and the odd international selection match where there is no corresponding club match, so it's pretty much out of our control to decide on when matches are held.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭dCorbus


    Full set of results up on the NTSA website now: http://www.targetshooting.ie/
    Makes for some interesting reading when you see the breakdowns.
    The 4 events and the various distances and conditions made the "leader board" a moveable feast!:D

    All-in-all a very enjoyable weekends shooting.

    :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭dCorbus


    BTW, in relation to the other stuff about having 70 - 200 shooters here "on the line", let's try to walk first before we run!:p

    Cross-discipline shoots are great fun - but they're a different thing entirely to a competition shoot IMO.

    I agree with IRLConor that first we should be concentrating on getting our own numbers up at all the competitions. There's always a good excuse / reason why a competition cannot be attended - but funnily enough, it's the same people making the excuses and the same people turning up! Odd that.;)

    And if lads can come all the way from Mayo to shoot one detail (extremely well, i may add), lads can (usually) travel from Norn' Iron, lads can cancel their family arrangements (risking divorce), and 14 shooters can turn up, then the reasons listed by Sparks above are more excuse than reason.

    Let's look at getting the numbers up first.

    I should note that this was a MNSCI Event (not a NTSA-run event - as others have pointed out the majority of events on the NTSA calender are club events, with only the Nationals etc being NTSA-run events), albeit with much much much assistance and back-up provided from NTSA members to the MNSCI members running the event.

    B'Man, some good points - but we have yet to see any such 50m PR60 events promoted by many of the clubs you list above: You know me, I'd turn up at the opening of an envelope, so if any of the clubs mentioned want to promote a 50m PR60 shoot, I'd probably be there!!
    We can get 10-15 more shooters out of the domestic circuit with a lot less grief and that would double this year's attendance. That would make it the largest ISSF/NSRA/NTSA-style competition I've seen south of the border in the last decade, so I don't think that goal is lacking in ambition!

    Eminently sensible!:)
    If you had 200 competitors, just have a lotto to decide who shoots where and kick it off - need a few heads per club to run the match and submit scores to 'central processing'

    Eminently insane!:D:rolleyes:

    But if someone (else) wants to organise such a concurrently-run nationwide event, off ya go!

    6 Ranges = Minimum 18 RO's, 6 Markers/Scorers, godknows how many boxes of targets, windflags, etc etc, PLUS a timing, coordination, and communications operation not seen since Desert Storm.:rolleyes: PLUS transport, directions, 6 different districts to apply to for Visitor Permits, etc. etc. PLUS.....

    ....there'd be no-one from Ireland actually shooting, because they'd be needed to run this nationwide event!

    But, hey, off ya go!;) Have Fun!:D

    But seriously.......

    The weekend shoot at MNSCI was great fun and very enjoyable (or so I thought anyway, and isn't that the only opinion that counts:rolleyes:) - the "introduction" of 100yd .22 PR shooting should def be built on. So let's hope this event becomes an annual one. We've 12 months to get more to attend!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    I think ye may have missed my point.

    I am not talking about people transferring from one discipline to another - that is extremely unlikely - for all of the reasons you have stated and many more- not least of which is they have already chosen their main discipline.

    I am not talking about trying to convince college students to drive to the ends of the country to shoot matches - as you say it is hard enough to get them to go to a match downstairs in the college when they only have to bring a membership[ card.

    What I am talking about is if you want to have a large Prone Rifle match then you have multiple disciplines and try to attract them all.
    Have PR60 Events and have Sporting Rifle events. That way you attract people from both codes.

    As all the equipment to do either is there people have the option to "try" the other one - if you're worried about making an arse of yourself by being beaten by a 17 year old you are in the wrong game - that day will come for all of us.

    You could have an award for overall aggregate for those that do take part in both. If you do happen to be good at both you win - if people from one code and not that great at the iother but are all equally poor then you are in with a chance.

    End of the day you have a big shoot - you get people to try the 'other stuff' and see it has no horns on it and hopefully have a bit of craic.

    As I said earlier.
    Bananaman wrote: »
    People are too quick to throw up reasons why you cannot do something - rather than try to come up with circumstances under which you could do it.

    As to charging more to make bigger trophies - I think people would prefer a smaller medal and more money in their arse pocket to buy ammo- but that's just me.

    B'Man


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    dCorbus wrote: »
    the reasons listed by Sparks above are more excuse than reason.
    They're an excuse for already competing shooters; they're a reason for potential new shooters. And they're mostly yanked from what we learnt in seminars from crowds like Volunteer Ireland - and are pretty well-known at this point. Biggest thing to turn off a volunteer is not knowing what they're getting into in some detail; next biggest thing is not seeing why they'd get into it in the first place (which is counter-intuitive, I thought it'd be the other way round, but there you go).

    The electronics have been a bit of a success for this, mind, and if we pushed them a bit more, had more photos/video of them in use so the new shooters could see what they could be trying, as well as a few videos of lads shooting on a pleasant-looking range on a warm sunny day... well that's motivation right there :)
    PLUS.....
    ....there'd be no-one from Ireland actually shooting, because they'd be needed to run this nationwide event!
    There'd be noone range officering or stats officering either, they'd be too busy handling all the complaints from Paddy and Mick who drew the "wrong" range to compete on and therefore couldn't possibly beat Tom and Harry who drew the "easy" range to shoot on...
    So let's hope this event becomes an annual one.
    You know, that really is step one - run the thing again :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭dCorbus


    BTW Where were you on Saturday and Sunday, sparks?:p

    :D:D:D:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    I am not talking about trying to convince college students to drive to the ends of the country to shoot matches - as you say it is hard enough to get them to go to a match downstairs in the college when they only have to bring a membership[ card.
    Actually, that's easy enough (at least for DURC, not sure what UCD's experience is like) - club championships and club matches there tended to range from busy to full while I was there. It's convincing college students to give up the weekend they're working on to come in at 0800 and pack gear and pile into someone else's car (dunno 'bout you but my student days didn't include being given a car and I damn sure never had enough money to buy one :D ) and go to somewhere they've never been before to do something they're not sure they're any good at against people they've never met in a place they've never been.

    From a volunteerism point of view, it's a genuinely nontrivial task.
    Have PR60 Events and have Sporting Rifle events. That way you attract people from both codes.
    But that's not a large PR60 match, that's two medium-size matches happening concurrently, and you can't even share range personnel or resources the way you can for class matches.
    As to charging more to make bigger trophies - I think people would prefer a smaller medal and more money in their arse pocket to buy ammo- but that's just me.
    That's what I meant by cash prizes. But most people just think that they can't win against Paddy or Joe or Mick and so don't want to pay entry fees with cash prizes because they think they might as well just give the prize to Paddy and cut out the middleman.

    Of course, there's always sponsorship. If DURC can get a Shilen barrel for a prize just by asking via email, it can't be competely impossible to do.


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