What are your thoughts on IMF intervention?

Brussels Sprout

The above graph was in the 'irish economy in graphs' thread and sums up the problems that our economy is in pretty well.

With 3 banks still hoovering up money, welfare costs rising and tax income falling I think it's fairly safe to say that we're in pretty bad economic shape and the future is far from certain.

With that in mind is there a realistic possibility that the IMF will be required to bail us out? I must admit that I don't know a lot about them except that they seem to be the lender of last resort-the global equivalent of a back alley loan shark.

In the past they have bailed out, amongst others, Hungary, Iceland, Latvia, Ukraine, Argentina, the south east Asian countries, Russia and, in 1976, Britain.

This is from their website:

How IMF lending helps
IMF lending aims to give countries breathing room to implement adjustment policies and reforms that will restore conditions for strong and sustainable growth, employment, and social investment. These policies will vary depending upon the country's circumstances, including the causes of the problems. For instance, a country facing a sudden drop in the price of a key export may simply need financial assistance to tide it over until prices recover and to help ease the pain of an otherwise sudden and sharp adjustment. A country suffering from capital flight needs to address the problems that led to the loss of investor confidence: perhaps interest rates that are too low, a large government budget deficit and debt stock that is growing too fast, or an inefficient, poorly regulated domestic banking system.
Before a member country can receive a loan, the country's authorities and the IMF must agree on a program of economic policies. A country's commitments to undertake certain policy actions are an integral part of IMF lending. They are designed to ensure that the funds will be used to resolve balance of payments problems. They would also help to restore or create access to support from other creditors and donors. A country's return to economic and financial health allows the IMF to be repaid, making the funds available to other members.

link

So, will we be saved from having to go to the IMF because of our membership of the eurozone?

Do you think that the austerity measures brought about by the IMF would be a good thing for the country in the long term or that they would knock us back sixty years?

hinault

I can't see the European Commission allowing/supporting IMF intervention in a Eurozone country.

And the introduction of IMF may not be politically acceptable for domestic reasons either.
Hungary at the moment is going through terrible situation because the IMF austerity plan has no political/popular support.


With regard to your graph, the tax yield target for 2010 is €31b approximately.

Liam Byrne

A graph like that just makes me wonder where all the surplus is gone.

MrDarcy

hinault wrote: »

I can't see the European Commission allowing/supporting IMF intervention in a Eurozone country.

And the introduction of IMF may not be politically acceptable for domestic reasons either.
Hungary at the moment is going through terrible situation because the IMF austerity plan has no political/popular support.


With regard to your graph, the tax yield target for 2010 is €31b approximately.

And no reform plan in Ireland will have popular support here either because the people who will be subject to it in the main will be the very people who need to have their salaries cut. If it was popular I'd argue that the government could have done it and there would be no need for IMF intervention. There is no argument but that too much was given during what were perceived to be good times and once these things are given it is next to impossible to take them back. All these notional entitlements now have to be completely deconstructed in the heads of public sector workers, the set up that they have become accustomed to is so so far away from what is considered to be normal in the private sector, that there isn't a hope of any government, even a half credible and partially competent one, in restoring any sense of industrial equilibrium now.

The public sector unions need to be nuked and the only people who can sort this now I believe, are the IMF or some European variant of the IMF, where money is lent subject to actual change as opposed to fannying around with Croke Park Deals and assuring the very people whose pay need to be cut by around 20%-30%, that they will be untouched from herein.

hinault

MrDarcy wrote: »

And no reform plan in Ireland will have popular support here either because the people who will be subject to it in the main will be the very people who need to have their salaries cut. If it was popular I'd argue that the government could have done it and there would be no need for IMF intervention. There is no argument but that too much was given during what were perceived to be good times and once these things are given it is next to impossible to take them back. All these notional entitlements now have to be completely deconstructed in the heads of public sector workers, the set up that they have become accustomed to is so so far away from what is considered to be normal in the private sector, that there isn't a hope of any government, even a half credible and partially competent one, in restoring any sense of industrial equilibrium now.

The public sector unions need to be nuked and the only people who can sort this now I believe, are the IMF or some European variant of the IMF, where money is lent subject to actual change as opposed to fannying around with Croke Park Deals and assuring the very people whose pay need to be cut by around 20%-30%, that they will be untouched from herein.

Hungary has gone through 4 years of austerity measures with input from the IMF and it still hasn't managed to rectify their economy.

Let me reiterate, I agree that our spending is far in excess of our income as a country.

If Germany and France can pay hospital consultants €100kpa for example, there is no reason why we can't do so as well.

RichardAnd

I think the IMF coming in could, in the long run, be a good thing as they could do what we can't simply because they aren't answerable to the people. However, I would not be rejoicing the day I see them landing in dublin and it is my earnest wish that it does not come to that.

MrDarcy

hinault wrote: »

Hungary has gone through 4 years of austerity measures with input from the IMF and it still hasn't managed to rectify their economy.

Well then you can only shudder at thoughts of the absolute state that Hungary would be in now if the IMF didn't get involved. As a citizen it could not be more clear to me that we are simply unable to get on top of our problems in this country. We don't deserve the right to vote, simple as that in my eyes.

The people who died for this country in 1916 must be kicking their coffins around Glasnevin Cemetery at this stage in shame and disgust at what we have managed to do with their gift to the Irish people which was freedom.

We have allowed the privilege of public office to be polluted by self serving scumbags who are not fit to sleep rough down in the Phoenix Park.

Scarab80

hinault wrote: »

I can't see the European Commission allowing/supporting IMF intervention in a Eurozone country.

You better tell the EC that the IMF are in Greece then.

hinault

Scarab80 wrote: »

You better tell the EC that the IMF are in Greece then.

ECB/EU provided the majority of the funds for the Greek bailout.

IMF were invited to participate at the behest of Merkel.

Sandvich

The IMF has a horrendous track record.

The problem is most efforts to keep a government afloat ultimately end up harmful to the economy.

There's no easy answer.

GSF

I just wonder if a debt spiral will happen. The OP's graph is likely based on more reasonable interest rates on national debt than Ireland is currently availing of. If interest repayments take up more and more of the tax take, we can never emerge from this situation. It will take us down but very slowly. It will be like carbon monoxide poisioning; it will happen so gradually that we wont realise it is happening until its too late.

Jaysoose

I have been saying it for the past two years...The irish goverment cant do simple maths and if left as is they will bring this country down.

The only option is to bring in the IMF...who knows if it will work but its certainly a better alternative than whats going on now.

Brussels Sprout

GSF wrote: »

I just wonder if a debt spiral will happen. The OP's graph is likely based on more reasonable interest rates on national debt than Ireland is currently availing of. If interest repayments take up more and more of the tax take, we can never emerge from this situation. It will take us down but very slowly. It will be like carbon monoxide poisioning; it will happen so gradually that we wont realise it is happening until its too late.

David McWilliams talked about this in a recent blog post:

Before we get bogged down in more spin, let’s look at the facts.
The Live Register is at 444,900. The ESRI predicts that 120,000 will leave the country in the next 18 months, on top of the 100,000 who have already gone in the past 18 months.
Government income is only covering 70pc of its expenditure (that is before accounting for the bailout of Anglo.)
Our national debt is heading inexorably towards 100pc of GDP, driven by both our falling GDP and our rising debt.
And now that the State is paying nearly 6pc interest on our debt, this means that the debt-to-GDP ratio will spiral out of control. A simple rule of thumb on debt dynamics is that if a country’s debt gets to 100pc of its income, the growth rate has to be greater than the rate of interest on the debt in order for the debt to stabilise.
Our growth rate will probably not hit more than 6pc again in a generation. So without huge increases in taxation and deep cuts, the deficit will spiral out of control. But the more you cut and tax, the less the growth rate and the more the efforts to cut the debt fail. This process — known in economics as a ‘failed fiscal adjustment’ — occurred all over the world in the 1980s.
This is why the markets are penalising Ireland. As pointed out by Paul Krugman, the Nobel prize winner for economics, far from being rewarded for our orthodox, IMF-friendly deficit-cutting programme, the markets are charging us more for debt. Why are interest rates for Irish debt rising? Because the risk of a blowout here is rising. It really is that simple.

link

Sounds like he’s saying that even IMF type cuts won’t help us now. He’s insinuating that bankruptcy and defaulting on our loans is on the cards. What will this mean exactly?

Jaysoose

Sandvich wrote: »

The IMF has a horrendous track record.

The problem is most efforts to keep a government afloat ultimately end up harmful to the economy.

There's no easy answer.

More horrendous than the current goverments policy of propping up banks while introducing levies and stealth taxes to pay for their complete lack of ideas.

In all fairness the goverment agreed to not cut public servants pay for the next 4 years even though it has been admitted they get to much. This is the same goverment that are introducing a levy on electricity so a STATE SUBSIDISED company can research green energy even though the same company is turning a healthy profit. This is the same goverment whos minister for transport takes the goverment jet to Donegal and then on to london for a mickey mouse meeting while his car is driven to meet him. They are doing all these things while expecting us to change our lifestyles and struggle to pay the bills with businesses going bust every day and the live register increasing daily.

Yet they still tell us we ave stabilised and things are turning round.

We need help and we need it fast, if the IMF have a bad record thats fine but it couldnt be any worse than the Shower we have running the kip now.

irishh_bob

hinault wrote: »

Hungary has gone through 4 years of austerity measures with input from the IMF and it still hasn't managed to rectify their economy.

Let me reiterate, I agree that our spending is far in excess of our income as a country.

If Germany and France can pay hospital consultants €100kpa for example, there is no reason why we can't do so as well.

have you ever been to hungary ??? , we might not be the straightest shooters in this country but were scandanavian compared to that lot in terms of corrupt free practice , hungary is a dump in every way shape and form

Jaysoose

irishh_bob wrote: »

have you ever been to hungary ??? , we might not be the straightest shooters in this country but were scandanavian compared to that lot in terms of corrupt free practice , hungary is a dump in every way shape and form

Why are we comparing ourselves to hungary? The "at least we are not as bad as those guys" argument doesnt help our situation.

hinault

irishh_bob wrote: »

have you ever been to hungary ??? , we might not be the straightest shooters in this country but were scandanavian compared to that lot in terms of corrupt free practice , hungary is a dump in every way shape and form

It may well be a dump.

But the IMF has been involved in trying to sort out Hungary's problems since 2006.

I merely make the point that the IMF doesn't automatically equate with finding a solution, using Hungary as an example.

dan_d

I don't think the IMF would solve our problems as such....but possibly the threat of their intervention might produce an effect from our politicians?

The kind of threat that says "you need to do X,Y and Z, or we'll be coming in and doing it for you after this date".

I've mixed feelings on the IMF.

Cookie_Monster

The benefit of the IMF would be complete lack of political input and they could take the needed measures to address things like public service pay rates, number, social welfare payment and minimum wages, which the body politic has little nerve to do anything real about.

I imagine the IMF would also endanger our competitive advantages such as the low corp tax rate and various beneficial tax treaties that it supports.

What we really need is the Eurozone (ie France and Germany) to tell our government what to do, rather than go to the IMF extreme.

P. Breathnach

irishh_bob wrote: »

have you ever been to hungary ??? , we might not be the straightest shooters in this country but were scandanavian compared to that lot in terms of corrupt free practice , hungary is a dump in every way shape and form

Here we go again! How about declaring your interest? You know, your unsatisfactory property investment.

In terms of corruption, Hungary is not particularly bad, and if judged in relation to other states that have emerged from behind the iron curtain, is among the least corrupt of those states that are still finding their feet. For rankings, see http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

Jaysoose

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The benefit of the IMF would be complete lack of political input and they could take the needed measures to address things like public service pay rates, number, social welfare payment and minimum wages, which the body politic has little nerve to do anything real about.

I imagine the IMF would also endanger our competitive advantages such as the low corp tax rate and various beneficial tax treaties that it supports.

What we really need is the Eurozone (ie France and Germany) to tell our government what to do, rather than go to the IMF extreme.

I disagree the IMF need to come in and make the changes happen, if this goverment is allowed to continue we will fall a further two years behind. The changes need to be implemented IMMEDIATELY and the unions etc need to be brought into line...this will not happen with our politicians at the helm.

If the goverment are left they will make no changes and this country will default..its that simple.. there is no more time for bull**** and waffle.

Brussels Sprout

Jaysoose wrote: »

If the goverment are left they will make no changes and this country will default..its that simple.. there is no more time for bull**** and waffle.

And what happens then? (I'm not being smart-I genuinely do not know and am curious as it seems that this has a good chance of actually happening)

Will we be kicked out of the euro?
Will there be a run on the banks?
Will all social welfare and public sector salaries be stopped?

Jaysoose

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

And what happens then? (I'm not being smart-I genuinely do not know and am curious as it seems that this has a good chance of actually happening)

Will we be kicked out of the euro?
Will there be a run on the banks?
Will all social welfare and public sector salaries be stopped?

Im not claiming to have a crystal ball but anyone with eyes can see the current approach is completely wrong and leading us to ruin. The goverment have had ample time to put processes in place to sort this mess out but have buried their heads in the sand and done NOTHING...

dan_d

Actually, I think they're taking the approach that they did their emergency budgets long before anyone else did, and weren't they great.It kept people quiet for a while. Except...now, it's becoming painfully obvious that it just wasn't enough.

We have to cut everywhere. And I've a feeling Dec budget will be horrible.But I agree we have to cut wages, jobs, benefits, union agreements, everything.

I've 2 major problems with all this though. Firstly, as said many, many times before, the Gov are not cutting their own wages/expenses etc, nor those of senior civil servants. Nor are they holding anyone responsible for what happened in recent years - above a certain level in society, it's as if nothing ever happened.

Secondly, all these cuts will result in more people having absolutely no money and struggling, and more jobs being lost....and just nothing being done about it.Nothing.Zero.Zilch.More and more people joining the dole queues and our politicians patting themselves on the back every time 10 jobs are created. Emigration will balloon - as if it hasn't already.

It's just sickening.So while the idea of the IMF is a necessary one, and I don't think that our politicians will do anything until this happens......I'm just not convinced that it won't create more problems than it solves. And emigration will, yet again, save the ruling classes from being totally destroyed by the ordinary Irish person..

P. Breathnach

dan_d wrote: »

... Firstly, as said many, many times before, the Gov are not cutting their own wages/expenses etc, nor those of senior civil servants....

No matter how often it is said, it is still untrue.

McDougal

The day the IMF arrives then it's the day democracy dies. Assuming you believe we have democracy as it is.

Jaysoose

McDougal wrote: »

The day the IMF arrives then it's the day democracy dies. Assuming you believe we have democracy as it is.

Whats democratic about refusing to hold byelections to cling on to power.

Sleepy

What would be undemocratic about it?

The IMF only intervene where they're invited to do so by the elected representatives of the people.

The alternative would be a default and a virtually cessation of government spending as we struggled to keep the country running without access to the credit provided by those we'd just defaulted on...

Count Dooku

McDougal wrote: »

The day the IMF arrives then it's the day democracy dies. Assuming you believe we have democracy as it is.

Do you mean that that noisy left wing minority will be not able to dictate how to spend other people’s money?

dan_d

Possibly true, but let's face it, democracy isn't working out so well for us right now.

rumour

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No matter how often it is said, it is still untrue.

Perhaps this should be the subject of another thread. What Public Sector wages have been reduced as opposed to levies or special taxes??

What defacto mandatory reductions in pay/salaries have there been?

I am not being facetious but I genuinely do not know.

rumour

McDougal wrote: »

The day the IMF arrives then it's the day democracy dies. Assuming you believe we have democracy as it is.

:eek: Wow...how about we just vote for them not to come!!! EASY

amacca

dan_d wrote: »

Nor are they holding anyone responsible for what happened in recent years - above a certain level in society, it's as if nothing ever happened.

that would be my gripe anyway....consequences are still not happening for those that (imo anyway) be it willfully (to feather their own nests) or stupidly (believed the fairytale was true) caused the greatest harm.

you may point to the odd posterboy casualty (s fitz - I wonder how badly off he really is) but where are the consequences for those that had almost direct parts to play in our tragi-comedy of a country

I don't want pain anymore than the person next door but if its necessary and even more of it is on the way then I'd like to see those responsible bear the brunt or even some of it.

P. Breathnach

rumour wrote: »

Perhaps this should be the subject of another thread. What Public Sector wages have been reduced as opposed to levies or special taxes??

Why exclude levies? The "pension-related levy" had a significant impact on people's pockets.

What defacto mandatory reductions in pay/salaries have there been?

In the 2010 budget, there were pay cuts ranging from 5% for lower-paid public servants to 20% at the highest pay levels. See here (p. 29): http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/Annexes%20to%20the%20Summary%20of%20Budget%20Measures%20Final.pdf

I am not being facetious but I genuinely do not know.

The typical public servant was hit twice in a year: the pensions levy and the pay cuts announced in the budget. I am sure that dan_d, who prompted my response, is not the only one who has forgotten this.

irishh_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Here we go again! How about declaring your interest? You know, your unsatisfactory property investment.

In terms of corruption, Hungary is not particularly bad, and if judged in relation to other states that have emerged from behind the iron curtain, is among the least corrupt of those states that are still finding their feet. For rankings, see http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

the only place ive ever mentioned a property investment in relation to hungary , was in the accomodation and property section , you on the other hand have brought this up on several occasions , in the travel section of all places and now here , how about you give it a rest for a while , just because i had a property deal which went sour in hungary doesnt negate the fact that hungary is a place where corruption is rampant at every level , hell the goverment was found to have lied about the countrys finances a few years ago which led directley to its current predictament

Sleepy

Sounds quite similar to our own government's carry on bob! I've only visited Budapest briefly (due to be back there in about a month) but from a tourists point of view, their public transport infrastructure and (city centre at least) architecture put ours in the shade...

irishh_bob

Sleepy wrote: »

Sounds quite similar to our own government's carry on bob! I've only visited Budapest briefly (due to be back there in about a month) but from a tourists point of view, their public transport infrastructure and (city centre at least) architecture put ours in the shade...

all former communitst countries had excellent public transport , thats beside the point

rumour

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why exclude levies? The "pension-related levy" had a significant impact on people's pockets..

I'm trying to ascertain what real inroads we have made to reducing our deficit. I'm inclined to start a new thread where I'll explain this. It will obviously provoke a heated debate but what are the solutions?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In the 2010 budget, there were pay cuts ranging from 5% for lower-paid public servants to 20% at the highest pay levels. See here (p. 29): http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/Annexes%20to%20the%20Summary%20of%20Budget%20Measures%20Final.pdf..

Thanks, I'll digest this and want to start a new thread.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The typical public servant was hit twice in a year: the pensions levy and the pay cuts announced in the budget. I am sure that dan_d, who prompted my response, is not the only one who has forgotten this..

I have sympathy with the plight of public servants, I have family members in this sector, but the 100,000 plus that emigrated did not come from the public sector and the extra 200,000 plus on the dole did not come from the public sector so I just want to keep things balanced.

P. Breathnach

irishh_bob wrote: »

the only place ive ever mentioned a property investment in relation to hungary , was in the accomodation and property section , you on the other hand have brought this up on several occasions , in the travel section of all places and now here , how about you give it a rest for a while , just because i had a property deal which went sour in hungary doesnt negate the fact that hungary is a place where corruption is rampant at every level , hell the goverment was found to have lied about the countrys finances a few years ago which led directley to its current predictament

So you want a free run at bad-mouthing a nation? I showed that your allegation of corruption is a distortion, but you see no need to back your claims up.

How about your giving it a rest?

irishh_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So you want a free run at bad-mouthing a nation? I showed that your allegation of corruption is a distortion, but you see no need to back your claims up.

How about your giving it a rest?

not my problem you have such a soft spot for a particular eastern european nation , i wasnt even the one who brought hungary up , i merley replied to a previous poster who mentioned IMF involvment in that basket case economy

McDougal

Sleepy wrote: »

What would be undemocratic about it?

The IMF only intervene where they're invited to do so by the elected representatives of the people.

The alternative would be a default and a virtually cessation of government spending as we struggled to keep the country running without access to the credit provided by those we'd just defaulted on...

I don't remember handing control to the IMF on any manifestos

And no that is not the only alternative.

McDougal

rumour wrote: »

I'm trying to ascertain what real inroads we have made to reducing our deficit. I'm inclined to start a new thread where I'll explain this. It will obviously provoke a heated debate but what are the solutions?





Thanks, I'll digest this and want to start a new thread.



I have sympathy with the plight of public servants, I have family members in this sector, but the 100,000 plus that emigrated did not come from the public sector and the extra 200,000 plus on the dole did not come from the public sector so I just want to keep things balanced.

Could you explain how sacking public sector workers will help create jobs in the private sector? Surely it will just cut the disposable income of those workers, increase social welfare payments and cut valuable services.

Count Dooku

McDougal wrote: »

Could you explain how sacking public sector workers will help create jobs in the private sector? Surely it will just cut the disposable income of those workers, increase social welfare payments and cut valuable services.

1) Not all services are valuable - government can close half of quango's and nobody will ever realize that it happened, except few failed politicians and PS unions leaders.
2) If it is true that public sector holds the most educated people in Ireland, who deserves their high salaries, it will create supply of well educated workforce on labour market and it will attract more MNC's
3) It will remove big difference between privileged PS workers, who have jobs for life and private sector workers, who don't have any privileges and must pay for everything

RichardAnd

Count Dooku wrote: »

2) If it is true that public sector holds the most educated people in Ireland, who deserves their high salaries, it will create supply of well educated workforce on labour market and it will attract more MNC's

Most well educated, perhaps. However the public sector is not the place to be for gaining experience in applying that education.

rumour

McDougal wrote: »

Could you explain how sacking public sector workers will help create jobs in the private sector? Surely it will just cut the disposable income of those workers, increase social welfare payments and cut valuable services.

You are right, disposable income will change. This is what I beieve is referred to as structural change. The idea of creating the economy by borrowed government to keep shops open doesn't resolve how it will be paid back.
The structural change is that private sector income should be in excess of government borrowing in addition to the private sector not borrowing like lunatics also. Unfortunately (understatement) both public and private sector went absolutely insane in this country.

I don't recall saying we should sack people rather pay them less for the same job!! If that doesn't work we have to sack them. This is against the back drop of us having no money at all because no one will lend to us any more. That is the worst scenario which believe it or not most private sector people are trying to help resolve.

Sandvich

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that that noisy left wing minority will be not able to dictate how to spend other people’s money?

Typical reactionary thought.

The IMF's policies have in many cases stunted growth and they do not have a stellar track record. I believe as usual this is not of real concern to the right wingers who are more concerned in pissing off hippies than real economic growth.

dan_d

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The typical public servant was hit twice in a year: the pensions levy and the pay cuts announced in the budget. I am sure that dan_d, who prompted my response, is not the only one who has forgotten this.

It's not that I've forgotten this P. Breathnach. It's just.....firstly, I was referring to senior civil servants, as in, those who are paid over 100,000 a year, along with members of our Government. Particularly in relation to our ministers, it's been shown time and again that they are paid far and beyond Governments in other countries, that are multiples the size of ours. When you add in the fact that there are so many of them, and that (we can only assume), a large number of them are creaming expenses left, right and centre....it makes me want the IMF to come in the door and rid them of their delusions. I've already explained my feelings on the IMF, based on the OP's question, so I'm not explaining that again.

As for your ordinary civil servant - I know there are people in there who work hard, who are good at their jobs, etc,etc. But as with every thing, there are those who aren't. And who are getting paid far and beyond what they should be. And who like to boast that their job is "easy". As for pension levies - well, most of us have to pay that anyway, it's not what you'd call a paycut for the rest of us. It's reality.

I'm not getting into this argument again, for the simple reason that we are unlikely to see eye to eye on it. I'm a 27 yr old civil engineer, out of work for a month, paying into my own pension since I was 24, working 50 hour weeks (as a basic week) for the last 5 years, and I can't find work. I don't know what your background is, but since the row is about public sector, I'm not going to be agreeing with a lot of what you say. I'm under no illusions....there's good and bad in there as with everything...but from my point of view, there's a huge amount of wastage and just plain stupidity with regard to working practices going on, along with the fact that the unions practically run the public service. At the end of the day, the public service and it's pay bill will be part of the reason that the IMF may have to be called in. Or may chose to simply show up at the door. We fooled a lot of people by not including our bank bailouts in the original balance sheets, when we initially started trying to pull ourselves back up. I just think that regardless of what Patrick Honohan said today, the reality of the situation is absolutely grim. And we've a country with a lot of people who are all for fixing the situation but not as long as it has any impact whatsoever on their lifestyles or their pay packets.

As I've said - I don't think the IMF is a solution, but something's got to give.

Count Dooku

Sandvich wrote: »

Typical reactionary thought.

The IMF's policies have in many cases stunted growth and they do not have a stellar track record. I believe as usual this is not of real concern to the right wingers who are more concerned in pissing off hippies than real economic growth.

Nobody will call IMF, if there is any chance for growth
IMF is like antibiotic – it can be used only as last option against excessive populism and doesn’t guarantee success at all, only will give a small chance
Zimbabwe is a good example where country can be without IMF advices

McDougal

Count Dooku wrote: »

1) Not all services are valuable - government can close half of quango's and nobody will ever realize that it happened, except few failed politicians and PS unions leaders.
2) If it is true that public sector holds the most educated people in Ireland, who deserves their high salaries, it will create supply of well educated workforce on labour market and it will attract more MNC's
3) It will remove big difference between privileged PS workers, who have jobs for life and private sector workers, who don't have any privileges and must pay for everything

Really? Ok give me the number of gaurds you want sacked, the number of nurses, the number of doctors, the number of teachers etc And don't give me this quango nonsense. Name the exact quangos you would cull how many work therel and how much it would save.

P. Breathnach

McDougal wrote: »

Really? Ok give me the number of gaurds you want sacked, the number of nurses, the number of doctors, the number of teachers etc And don't give me this quango nonsense. Name the exact quangos you would cull how many work therel and how much it would save.

If we abolish just one quango, fire all its staff, and discontinue its all programmes, we can virtually eliminate our budgetary problems. Say goodbye to the HSE.

demonspawn

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A graph like that just makes me wonder where all the surplus is gone.

Under Betrie's mattress?