Sorry i can't accept your money.

Super-Rush

My mate went into a petrol station last night to get a few things. When he went to pay he realised the only cash he had on him was a €200 note. The person behind the counter told him that the manager had told him not to take any note over €100. Since when did people stop accepting legal money? If he thought it was fake he could have used the note scanner. What would have happened if my friend had put petrol in his car?

amcalester

Legal Tender is payment that cannot be refused in settlement of a debt.

As your friend wasn't in debt to the shop when he went to pay, the shop was perfectly entitled to refuse the €200 note i.e. your friend made an offer to buy the goods from the shop and the shop declined to enter into contract.

As far as I know if the petrol was already in the car then the shop would have to accept the €200 note but would not be obliged to give change. The over payment would be viewed as a gift to the shop.

reunion

amcalester wrote: »

As far as I know if the petrol was already in the car then the shop would have to accept the €200 note but would not be obliged to give change. The over payment would be viewed as a gift to the shop.

Are you sure? This does not seem right.....

amcalester

reunion wrote: »

Are you sure? This does not seem right.....

I'm pretty sure I'm right. Legal tender means that it must be accepted in payment of a debt but there is no obligation to provide change.

Improbable

The part about shops not having to accept a particular denomination is legit. If the goods or service was exchanged before the payment was due to be made like in a restaurant setting, then I think they would be forced to accept any legal tender or cancel the debt. I'm honestly surprised by the issue with getting changed though, if it is indeed true.

Gillo

There was a massive thread about this a while back, it's quite common and a general security measure a lot of businesses carry out. Put it this way it's one thing taking a hit on a €10 euro note it's a completely different story when it's a €200, if it turns out to be fake and while note checkers are useful you will still get a few fakes slipping through.

Also bare in mind that they'd have to pay out a massive amount of change on a tender that size and it could well wipe out the cashiers float.

Dublindude69

We've been told not to take notes larger then €50. Reason being (Don't know if I'm being fed Bull****) is apperntly there are fakes going around that are so good that the detector pens can't spot them.

blubloblu

If you had petrol in the tank, they would be obliged to accept the €200 and would owe change from the accepted price.

Gardoggle

I wouldnt know what a €100 or €200 note looks like.. when I go to the ATM the machine always gives me fifties, where do these notes come from? I've seen signs in shops refusing to take them.

Drumpot

Remember I was on a bus into town and the busman refused change. Your man rightly said "legal tender" and the busman grudgingly accepted it!

Ive seen that at a few petrol stations I have been in . . Is it the right of the vendor to refuse cash ?!

Dublindude69

Drumpot wrote: »

Remember I was on a bus into town and the busman refused change. Your man rightly said "legal tender" and the busman grudgingly accepted it!

Ive seen that at a few petrol stations I have been in . . Is it the right of the vendor to refuse cash ?!

Someone used €200 to pay for a bus? I didn't think buses accepted notes anyway.

dudara

From a general Wikipedia article

In some jurisdictions legal tender can be refused as payment if no debt exists prior to the time of payment (where the obligation to pay may arise at the same time as the offer of payment). For example vending machines and transport staff do not have to accept the largest denomination of banknote. Shopkeepers can reject large banknotes — this is covered by the legal concept known as invitation to treat. However, restaurants that do not collect payment until after a meal is served would have to accept that legal tender for the debt incurred in purchasing the meal.

gbee

The vendor has the right to refuse large denomination notes, like offering €200 for a €20 purchase or indeed a child offering a €50 for 10C worth of sweets.

Change, the issue of change [when I was retailing like back in the stone age now] was once that the bank honoured the note the customer would then get his change.

BTW, I ws selling petrol for 35 Pence a GALLON in old currency, Punts I think, but I sold in the old Sterling linked Irish £ too, went through the conversion.

P. Breathnach

blubloblu wrote: »

If you had petrol in the tank, they would be obliged to accept the €200 and would owe change from the accepted price.

Not quite. There is no legal obligation on any person to give change. They do so to oblige customers and in the hope that they will get repeat business.

The euro is legal tender in Ireland. If you owe me €47.34, then I am obliged to accept €47.34 in cash from you in full settlement of your debt; I am not obliged to accept €50.00 and return €2.66 to you.

Drumpot

Dublindude69 wrote: »

Someone used €200 to pay for a bus? I didn't think buses accepted notes anyway.

Sorry, I should of elaborated. The guy had €10 in change and the bus driver didnt want to have to count it ! !

JohnC.

Drumpot wrote: »

Sorry, I should of elaborated. The guy had €10 in change and the bus driver didnt want to have to count it ! !

Was it a lot of small change? If it was, I'd certainly understand the bus driver not wanting to count it, as well as other customers not wanting to be delayed by someone being awkward.

Additionally, if there were over 50 coins, the bus driver definitely didn't have to accept it.

UrbanSea

The Paddy Power in town has a sign up saying it won't accept 200e notes.
Just a word for people.
I had a customer tell me yesterday that there are a whole load of fake 50e notes in circulation.

kn

amcalester wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I'm right. Legal tender means that it must be accepted in payment of a debt but there is no obligation to provide change.

Correct. There is an absolute legal obligation to accept the legal tender of the State. In fact under the (I think) 1947 Central Bank Act you are no longer obliged to pay for any goods or services where the legal tender of the State has been refused i.e. you can walk off without paying. The only limit on this relates to payment using coinage where there is a limit of circa 50 quid above which the trader can refuse to accept payment in coinage.

Refusal to give change would be theft!

Bucklesman

kn wrote: »

The only limit on this relates to payment using coinage where there is a limit of circa 50 quid above which the trader can refuse to accept payment in coinage.

It's actually a maximum of fifty coins; big difference to the poor cashier tbh!

Sktchr

I heard somewhere (Don't know how true it is), that legally you do not have to accept over ten coins (whatever denominations) when receiving payment for goods/services. But generally common sense and courtesy comes into play. I've often had someone come into the shop where I work asking to get rid of some of the change in their pocket when paying. I've no problem with that.

dudara

Sktchr wrote: »

I heard somewhere (Don't know how true it is), that legally you do not have to accept over ten coins (whatever denominations) when receiving payment for goods/services.

The legal limit is 50 coins.

didntgotoplan

Dublindude69 wrote: »

We've been told not to take notes larger then €50. Reason being (Don't know if I'm being fed Bull****) is apperntly there are fakes going around that are so good that the detector pens can't spot them.

Yes this happened in the shop I work.
My boss took in a €50 note from a guy, it past through all our detector routine(i.e those money pens, feeling for the ridges, compare them against a similar note etc.) and found nothing wrong with it. So she accepted it but felt there was something weird with the note, when it quickly became very fragile.

So she brought it to a bank and their machine said it was a fake. So we got a machine in now that every €50 goes through first.

clarke1991

I used to work in a shop. A man came in and got €20 Diesel and some chewing gum, he handed me a €500 note:p! I was like 'amm, d'ya have anything smaller?'. Changed it in the end for him tho, although there wasn't an awful lot left in the till after:rolleyes:

wmpdd3

Dublindude69 wrote: »

We've been told not to take notes larger then €50. Reason being (Don't know if I'm being fed Bull****) is apperntly there are fakes going around that are so good that the detector pens can't spot them.

I have seen 3 fake €200 notes, all passed the pen test and had holograms but they all had dodgy feeling raised strips in the top middle of the note.

And we don't accept anything more than €100 note, when we did, we used to get atleast 4 large notes per day now we get none.

dxhound2005

They are legal tender but our Central Bank has never printed €200 or €500 notes, any in circulation originated abroad. There are high grade counterfeit notes being made so some shops don't want to risk being stung.

jahalpin

A fake note obviously wouldn't be legal tender, so a shop doesn't have to accept one that it believes may be a counterfeit.

Due to the fact that there are so many fakes around and it is very difficult for a normal till-worker to tell a fake from the original, only the banks have the required equipment to really tell if a note is a fake due to the high quality forgeries going around at the moment, it is far safer for a shop-owner to err on the side of caution and refuse to accept high value, high risk notes.

I would have thought that it would be very unusual for a bank to give 200 or 5pp euros unless they were specifically asked for them. Several countries, including the UK, have basically banned bureau de changes from accepting these high value notes as they are normally used by criminal gangs etc to move high quantities of cash around.

91011

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I have seen 3 fake €200 notes, all passed the pen test and had holograms but they all had dodgy feeling raised strips in the top middle of the note

These were the braille marks - and possibly the onl;y feature that is not in fake notes.

The €200 fakes can be of exceptional quality - similar paper, watermarks and even what seems to be a strip going through. (they're worth €200 so a lot of work is put into them)

The only thing not copied so far is the braille marks. (top & left of middle on nall notes) They are applied in such a way that they can be felt by an experienced finger even on an old note.

Next time you are changing euro notes in a UK bank or non euro bank, watch them feel for the braille marks.

Corruptedmorals

I can understand someone using a €200 note in somewhere like Arnotts or even Tesco (though I remember hearing that Tesco tills don't carry €50's, they don't have access to them or something, same as Boots) but really a Petrol station, they don't carry massive amounts of change around, their aim is to keep as little cash as possible on the premises.

Where I work accepts the €200 and the €500. Nobody using these notes spends more than €40. They usually come in soon after opening and are absolutely gobsmacked that I don't have €460 change for them and have to go to the safe. Ignorant, change your mad notes at the bank.

jpb1974

When he went to pay he realised the only cash he had on him was a €200 note.

"Damn... I've only just realised I've only a €200 note on me" - as if.

If I had a €200 note in my pocket I'd 100% know it.

bugler

jpb1974 wrote: »

"Damn... I've only just realised I've only a €200 note on me" - as if.

If I had a €200 note in my pocket I'd 100% know it.

That's missing the point. He may have known he had a €200 note - but he may well have thought he had a €20 note too.

jpb1974

OK.. back to the original question then:

What would have happened if my friend had put petrol in his car?

A few possibilities:

1. It just so happened that you had a score in your pocket and you lent it to your friend and a catastrophe was averted

2. He used his Laser or Credit Card

3. You'd have been sent running to the nearest bank to change it whilst your friend was held hostage as collateral. That's assuming that bank was open

4. They would've went outside and drained the fuel from the car and sent you on your merry way... assuming you had enough fuel in the tank to get as far as merry way

5. Ye start busking outside and when you'd earned enough you pay'd for the petrol

jpb1974

6. The gal behind the counter sighs and says "OK, just this once, but next time remember we can't accept anything larger than a €50 note". You call back a fortnight later and she's gone... turns out she got the sack.

jor el

Most likely they'd issue you with a bill for the amount, possibly looking for some sort of security deposit to be left (drivers licence, ATM card or something else you'd definitely go back for).

delllat

a guy in an internet cafe in camden st refused to take a 50 euro note off me once when i had used the internet for 30 min and owed him €1

he told me i had to leave my phone with him and he would return it when it i came back and paid the €1

i told him he wasnt getting my phone,call the guards if u want

in the end he let me go across the road to the spar (with the phone ) and break the 50 and i paid him his €1

cheeky cnut

the_syco

delllat wrote: »

a guy in an internet cafe in camden st refused to take a 50 euro note off me once when i had used the internet for 30 min and owed him €1

Most of these places your float is €50, so he probably thought you were a

delllat wrote: »

cheeky cnut

trying to get out of paying.

cherryghost

the_syco wrote: »

Most of these places your float is €50, so he probably thought you were a

trying to get out of paying.

Yeah I have to do that a few times here in the internet cafe in Athlone. Just not enough money in the till to hand over the change like that, especially when the shop doesnt deal with large charges anyway. I do hate it though, asking for something smaller, but I don't really have a choice.

Also, although we can take limited 50's we can not, in any circumstances accept over 100 euro. We've been stung twice in the last few years and had turned down some 100s as they were found to be counterfeit.

delllat

the_syco wrote: »

Most of these places your float is €50, so he probably thought you were a

trying to get out of paying.

i still wasnt leaving a 300 euro phone full of personal info as security for a €1 debt

its his problem if he cant break a 50

Our man in Havana

Correct. The Gardaí will not get involved as it is a civil matter. Legal tender was offered to satisfy a debt. His problem entirely.

P. Breathnach

delllat wrote: »

... its his problem if he cant break a 50

That's a poor attitude. You owed the money. It is your problem to pay it.

Haddockman wrote: »

Correct. ... Legal tender was offered to satisfy a debt. His problem entirely.

Incorrect. A €50 is not legal tender in settlement of a €1 debt. Unless you decide that you don't want change.

As a general principle, if you decide to be precious and stand on your rights, you had better make sure that you know what those rights are.

Our man in Havana

Nice to see the high horse brigade in attendance.

dxhound2005

Some more thoughts on the subject from earlier this year.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055893997

Corruptedmorals

delllat wrote: »

i still wasnt leaving a 300 euro phone full of personal info as security for a €1 debt

its his problem if he cant break a 50

People who work in shops don't make the rules/set the float.

Our man in Havana

The offer was made to settle the debt and he refused.

Minstrel27

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's a poor attitude. You owed the money. It is your problem to pay it.



Incorrect. A €50 is not legal tender in settlement of a €1 debt. Unless you decide that you don't want change.

Please point me to where it says in law that a €50 note is not legal tender when paying €1. I find that to be absolutely incredible.

Johnny_the_fox

similar scenario

The term 'legal tender' is key to the currency issue, as it only actually refers to a narrow definition of what is acceptable for the settlement of a debt, and does not carry any real practical meaning in everyday life. Just because a note (or other means of payment) is not legal tender does not mean that it is illegal or unacceptable.

people should start writing IOUs.

P. Breathnach

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Please point me to where it says in law that a €50 note is not legal tender when paying €1. I find that to be absolutely incredible.

You are looking at things the wrong way around. The proper question to ask is what is legal tender, not what is not. The conventional definition of legal tender is that which must be accepted in settlement of a debt. There is no provision in law obliging a trader to give change. See, for example, http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Legal_tender and look at the second paragraph for the point about change.

delllat

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's a poor attitude. You owed the money. It is your problem to pay it.



Incorrect. A €50 is not legal tender in settlement of a €1 debt. Unless you decide that you don't want change.

As a general principle, if you decide to be precious and stand on your rights, you had better make sure that you know what those rights are.

if you read my post,i OFFERED to pay it

the guy is running a business in DUBLIN CITY CENTRE ,this was well before the recession kicked in so a €50 wasnt a huge amount at the time

people had higher salaries and more disposable cash ,if people are going to stop accepting 50s they should be taken out of legal tender cause whats the point of banks giving us notes we cant spend ?

delllat

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's a poor attitude. You owed the money. It is your problem to pay it.



Incorrect. A €50 is not legal tender in settlement of a €1 debt. Unless you decide that you don't want change.

As a general principle, if you decide to be precious and stand on your rights, you had better make sure that you know what those rights are.

no shop is entitled to keep your change ,which law says that ?

P. Breathnach

delllat wrote: »

if you read my post,i OFFERED to pay it

the guy is running a business in DUBLIN CITY CENTRE ,this was well before the recession kicked in so a €50 wasnt a huge amount at the time

people had higher salaries and more disposable cash ,if people are going to stop accepting 50s they should be taken out of legal tender cause whats the point of banks giving us notes we cant spend ?

It's very simple, and you have missed the point. If you owe somebody €1, the only legal tender is €1 (one coin, or a mix of coins: it doesn't really matter).

If you tender a larger amount, the creditor can refuse it or refuse to give change. Of course we can see that generally retail traders provide change as a convenience for customers, but they are not obliged to. If the trader does not have enough change, that's your problem, not his.

A €50 note is legal tender for a debt of €50.

P. Breathnach

delllat wrote: »

no shop is entitled to keep your change ,which law says that ?

No shop is obliged to give you change.

Minstrel27 asked for a source; I gave one; now you simply assert a claim at variance with what I cited.

Your turn: give me a source that says that a shopkeeper is obliged to give change.

delllat

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No shop is obliged to give you change.

well that would null my obligation to pay them :rolleyes: