City, Urban, and Rural Governance.

Red_Marauder

Any of us who spend a lot of time in rural Ireland and a lot of time in urban centres such as Dublin, can see that in Ireland, there exists a large urban-rural divide.
It is a division which at best challenges and at worst hampers the efficiency and the competency of the national legislature. The country is simply too socially diverse to rule as one distinct bloc.

Surely the best system of governance on this island is one which is vastly decentralised into regions with their own legislative autonomy, raising much of their own taxes and only coming under the umbrella of National Government in line with the judiciary, the constitution and matters relating to foreign policy.

So often it seems that what is good for Dublin is bad for the countryside, and vice versa. There seems to be this impossible balancing act being maintained by the National Government with the mute and ineffective urban and county councils playing little or no serious role in local governance - much to the historic and continued detriment of the rural regions.

So as one of the most centralised countries in Europe, is it about time that we devolve from Dublin and take a more local approach to Governing the country?

Sulmac

Have a look at this thread, OP. Although it's more about the number of local authorities, a few of us have suggested a system akin to the one you're proposing.

Denerick

NO DECENTRALISATION!

For christs sake. Why would you want to create yet another political class? Politicians do enough damage, please let the citizens get on with their lives to the best of their ability. The last thing Ireland need is another layer of hacks permeating our political system and sucking the marrow from the bone of what could still be a virtuous island.

johnnyskeleton

Red_Marauder wrote: »

So often it seems that what is good for Dublin is bad for the countryside, and vice versa. There seems to be this impossible balancing act being maintained by the National Government with the mute and ineffective urban and county councils playing little or no serious role in local governance - much to the historic and continued detriment of the rural regions.

Most of the tax and wealth in the country is based in Dublin, Cork and Galway. So you could well have a situation where there are great schools, hospitals and policing in the cities, while people in, say, Leitrim have tumble down schools and no hospitals to speak of.

I like the idea of it - i.e. you can have certain areas of the country with low tax and low services, others with high tax and high services, but the reality is that most of the country is being subsidised by the cities, in particular Dublin.

Equally, it was brinksmanship between local councils that lead, in part (I accept that s.23 was a greater incentive) to the vast number of uninhabited newly built estates across the country. Leitrim, Longford and Roscommon councils were under pressure to approve more and more planning applications in order to secure more construction jobs for their counties. Even now, some councils are looking for a solution to their own problems which is to the detriment of the country at large.

However corrupt and incompetent our national candidates are, our local candidates are worse - it's just that they are given much less power and responsibility so less opportunity to defraud/mess up. Giving them more power will not help Ireland.

Finally, what happens to county councils like Galway, where through spenthrift policies they run out of money all too easily.

silverharp

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Any of us who spend a lot of time in rural Ireland and a lot of time in urban centres such as Dublin, can see that in Ireland, there exists a large urban-rural divide.
It is a division which at best challenges and at worst hampers the efficiency and the competency of the national legislature. The country is simply too socially diverse to rule as one distinct bloc.

Surely the best system of governance on this island is one which is vastly decentralised into regions with their own legislative autonomy, raising much of their own taxes and only coming under the umbrella of National Government in line with the judiciary, the constitution and matters relating to foreign policy.

So often it seems that what is good for Dublin is bad for the countryside, and vice versa. There seems to be this impossible balancing act being maintained by the National Government with the mute and ineffective urban and county councils playing little or no serious role in local governance - much to the historic and continued detriment of the rural regions.

So as one of the most centralised countries in Europe, is it about time that we devolve from Dublin and take a more local approach to Governing the country?

you are so lucky to have that perspective, I wish I knew people that had experience of city and county life

However If Ireland had been set up in the way you suggest it may have been better for everyone concerned. People would have hopefully been more innovatve instead of waiting for gov. handouts. Our infrastructure would have been more efficient as people would be less spread out, and it would be a more accountable form of government.

now I think the challenge is to downsize government, decentralisation can wait.

Red_Marauder

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Most of the tax and wealth in the country is based in Dublin, Cork and Galway. So you could well have a situation where there are great schools, hospitals and policing in the cities, while people in, say, Leitrim have tumble down schools and no hospitals to speak of.

Being reasonably familiar with Leitrim, I'm not sure that isn't already the case, but I see your point.

Why do you say most wealth is based in the city? I am guessing you might be mistaking rural taxation disproportionately with the agricultural economy.

The largest exports in 2009 were in chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and the computer hardware industries. These are industries that tend not to be based in the cities.
http://www.finfacts.ie/artman/upload..._jan072010.jpg

In 2008, 7bn euro of our exports were agri-foods or live animal exports. They were our third biggest single export and relate mainly to the rural economy.

Not one of the industries I see in that exports list that I have linked to are "city" industries. So certainly, the rural economy has great scope for having more legislative and financial autonomy.

johnnyskeleton

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Being reasonably familiar with Leitrim, I'm not sure that isn't already the case, but I see your point.

Why do you say most wealth is based in the city? I am guessing you might be mistaking rural taxation disproportionately with the agricultural economy.

The largest exports in 2009 were in chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and the computer hardware industries. These are industries that tend not to be based in the cities.
http://www.finfacts.ie/artman/upload..._jan072010.jpg

In 2008, 7bn euro of our exports were agri-foods or live animal exports. They were our third biggest single export and relate mainly to the rural economy.

Not one of the industries I see in that exports list that I have linked to are "city" industries. So certainly, the rural economy has great scope for having more legislative and financial autonomy.

More than half of the country's tax is paid in Dublin - link.

So if most of our productive industry is based outside of the cities, why are the people and corporations of Dublin paying so much tax? Are they paying too much from their own generosity, or are there massive tax subsidies to country industry or both?

dan719

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

More than half of the country's tax is paid in Dublin - link.

So if most of our productive industry is based outside of the cities, why are the people and corporations of Dublin paying so much tax? Are they paying too much from their own generosity, or are there massive tax subsidies to country industry or both?

Hi,

Most headquarters of large corporations are likely to be based in areas such as Dublin. This is where corporation tax will be credited to.

If you want to take the credit for this taxation, you sure as hell better be willing to pick up the bill for the bank bail out, as the headquarters are, wait for it, in Dublin.

cyclopath2001

dan719 wrote: »

you want to take the credit for this taxation, you sure as hell better be willing to pick up the bill for the bank bail out, as the headquarters are, wait for it, in Dublin.

But the wortheless properties that are supposed to back the loans managed by NAMA are not in Dublin.

metrovelvet

Hmnnn...

I think for all of us in the countryside who are paying our motor tax faithfully, the lads on Kildare Street should post out sports bras with the tax disc to protect us while having to drive on no less than disgraceful roads with crater sized potholes.

cyclopath2001

metrovelvet wrote: »

the lads on Kildare Street should post out sports bras with the tax disc to protect us while having to drive on no less than disgraceful roads with crater sized potholes.

....While driving from 'decentralised' public service offices to one-off houses in the middle of nowehere.

Liam Byrne

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

....While driving from 'decentralised' public service offices to one-off houses in the middle of nowehere.

Define "middle of nowhere". I'm outside a city, but I'm probably nearer to hospital, shopping centre and other facilities than someone stuck in the back of an impersonal sprawling housing estate who probably has to walk 2 miles through said housing estate to the local pub or shop.

thebman

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

But the wortheless properties that are supposed to back the loans managed by NAMA are not in Dublin.

Really, link please?? Seems massively inaccurate.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

....While driving from 'decentralised' public service offices to one-off houses in the middle of nowehere.

Right except for many of the people I know who work for private sector companies and live in planned housing estates in the country and even if they are in one off housing, the planning laws let them ... ...

Cool Mo D

Red_Marauder wrote: »

...
The largest exports in 2009 were in chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and the computer hardware industries. These are industries that tend not to be based in the cities.
http://www.finfacts.ie/artman/upload..._jan072010.jpg
...

What!?

Of course the chemical and pharmaceutical industries are based in cities. Almost the entire pharmaceutical and chemical industry is situated around Cork, with medical devices based around Galway and biopharma in Dublin. Computer hardware is based in Dublin and Cork. Your exports only include merchandise - which excludes software and technological services (e.g. Microsoft, Apple, Google, and Facebook), which have their European offices in Dublin and Cork. Really, the rural economy is based on agriculture and related services, some industry, especially food related, and the public sector.

Nemi

dan719 wrote: »

Most headquarters of large corporations are likely to be based in areas such as Dublin. This is where corporation tax will be credited to.

Corporation Tax only accounts for about 10% of total tax take. Within that 10%, the most likely cause of a disproportion amount of that being generated in Dublin (in the past, at any rate) might be traced to the IFSC.

Manic Moran

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Most of the tax and wealth in the country is based in Dublin, Cork and Galway. So you could well have a situation where there are great schools, hospitals and policing in the cities, while people in, say, Leitrim have tumble down schools and no hospitals to speak of.

I like the idea of it - i.e. you can have certain areas of the country with low tax and low services, others with high tax and high services, but the reality is that most of the country is being subsidised by the cities, in particular Dublin.

It's one of the reasons that I like the American system where the rural States have a little (But not too much) more sway per inhabitant than the urban ones. Whether the cities like it or not, they are dependant on the rual areas for their sustainment. Though the voters tend to work on short-term interests (new services for themselves) and as a result most votes go to the people who send the most money to the cities, if the rural areas are neglected, the quality of life available to the city dwellers will eventually degrade.

Seems to work the best of both ways. Rural areas are not ignored, and the 'national pot' is still administered centrally from Dublin.

NTM

Liam Byrne

Aren't all "state" cars and vans (an Post, Garda, ESB, TDs) registered as "D" regs, paying road tax in Dublin instead of the counties in which they operate ?

Not to mention the businesses who have their Irish HQ in Dublin, thereby paying taxes (and their company car taxes) via Dublin addresses ?

Also, with heads of banks and large companies generally based in Dublin, and they're the ones getting paid half a million each or more, then their tax would be "higher" too.

I'd be interested in figuring out what the amount-per-head was; obviously Dublin will pay more, because of a larger population (and the fact that they have proper public transport, etc means they get a larger amount of the spend, too) but is there any factual, per-person and per-circumstance basis, comparing like with like, to a general "Dublin pays more tax" theory ?

Head The Wall

State cars don't pay tax or VRT as far as I know.

liammur

No doubt if counties could compete individually the whole landscape would change overnight, for instance, IDA have targets set for dublin and cork until 2020, but what about elsewhere ?. The government are making a mess of regionalisation and something radical needs to be done.

It's a bit similar to DAA authority controlling shannon airport. No airport will do well if a rival is in control. A bit like if liverpool were depending on man utd for transfer funds!

Nemi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Aren't all "state" cars and vans (an Post, Garda, ESB, TDs) registered as "D" regs, paying road tax in Dublin instead of the counties in which they operate ?

According to this State owned cars are exempt from motor tax, so I expect the answer is no.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd be interested in figuring out what the amount-per-head was; obviously Dublin will pay more, because of a larger population (and the fact that they have proper public transport, etc means they get a larger amount of the spend, too) but is there any factual, per-person and per-circumstance basis, comparing like with like, to a general "Dublin pays more tax" theory ?

I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for, but the CSO do publish figures on regional income. It includes a figure for what residents in each county pay in tax and receive in social transfers. So, for the sake of argument, someone living in Roscommon but working in Galway would have their tax and income counted as Roscommon.

What those figures show is that only households in the Dublin and Mid East regions make a net contribution to State funds. In other words, your assumption that the Eastern region gets more out seems questionable.

That's probably not what you want to hear, but that seems to be the situation.

Nemi

liammur wrote: »

No doubt if counties could compete individually the whole landscape would change overnight, for instance, IDA have targets set for dublin and cork until 2020, but what about elsewhere ?. The government are making a mess of regionalisation and something radical needs to be done.

But, with respect, we've heard all this before. IDA have invested quite a lot of energy in attract industry to the regions. What they've pointed out is they could be much more effective if they were allowed to concentrate on the regional cities.

And, yes, the do have regional targets. The target is to aim to get half of all new jobs outside of Dublin and Cork. But I expect that depends on half of all projects wanting to locate outside Dublin and Cork.

At least, I hope they won't tell someone to get the feck out of Cork because they want them to go to Donegal.

liammur wrote: »

It's a bit similar to DAA authority controlling shannon airport. No airport will do well if a rival is in control. A bit like if liverpool were depending on man utd for transfer funds!

But the reason Shannon is still linked to Dublin is its not capable of generating enough income to survive on its own. You might recall a few years back the local airport board did a deal with Ryanair. Ryanair just found that there wasn't that much interest in travelling to the Mid West.

And its not especially lack of promotion. Shannon Development is an independent agency with a specific remit to attract business to the Mid West, including a role in promoting and generating business for the airport.

liammur

Nemi wrote: »

But, with respect, we've heard all this before. IDA have invested quite a lot of energy in attract industry to the regions. What they've pointed out is they could be much more effective if they were allowed to concentrate on the regional cities.

And, yes, the do have regional targets. The target is to aim to get half of all new jobs outside of Dublin and Cork. But I expect that depends on half of all projects wanting to locate outside Dublin and Cork.

At least, I hope they won't tell someone to get the feck out of Cork because they want them to go to Donegal.But the reason Shannon is still linked to Dublin is its not capable of generating enough income to survive on its own. You might recall a few years back the local airport board did a deal with Ryanair. Ryanair just found that there wasn't that much interest in travelling to the Mid West.

And its not especially lack of promotion. Shannon Development is an independent agency with a specific remit to attract business to the Mid West, including a role in promoting and generating business for the airport.

The IDA have been shambolic, and that's being kind to them.
Shannon's problem is that the region has been more or less run into ground ( Cork has got as many IDA jobs in 2010, as limerick has since 1997) so I can't see much of a future for it to be honest.
Can anyone tell me what shannon development have done in the last 10 years? (apart from waste plenty of money of course)

Nemi

liammur wrote: »

The IDA have been shambolic, and that's being kind to them.
Shannon's problem is that the region has been more or less run into ground ( Cork has got as many IDA jobs in 2010, as limerick has since 1997) so I can't see much of a future for it to be honest.
Can anyone tell me what shannon development have done in the last 10 years? (apart from waste plenty of money of course)

But what would you change in the situation? I mean, is it really all about national agencies attracting in FDI? Do regions themselves not have to make something of whatever opportunities they have?

I could understand the South East feeling they get overlooked. Where's the Suir Development Agency, the airport with the 3,000 metre runway and the (very sore point) University?

But, in the case of the Mid West, or the West generally, there never seems to have been much of a problem getting resources. Its just that not much seems to have been achieved, despite all that effort.

And I suppose the problem of that mediocre outcome in the Mid West is it undermines the credibility of the idea that all regional development needs is a bit of Government support. If that was the case, why is there so little to show around the Shannon region?

So what would you actually do to change things? Linking to the governance theme in the title of this thread, my own feeling is just need to have regional administrative structures that make sense. That means structures that ignore county. No problem with county remaining as a basis for sporting organisations. But they're useless as anything else.

Once you've large enough units, you can delegate tax-raising powers to them. Then public action becomes an activity of local people raising local money for common purpose, instead of political activity being about how much money you can rob from the public purse.

Think of how differently people in Roscommon would feel about their hospital, if it was run with locally raised money that they actually needed for health care. I'd think you'd pretty soon find that they would have worked out that a fully fledged acute hospital is not their priority, when they can obtain better service more efficiently in Galway.

liammur

Nemi wrote: »

I could understand the South East feeling they get overlooked. Where's the Suir Development Agency, the airport with the 3,000 metre runway and the (very sore point) University?

I would not disagree with this.
These underperforming agencies should just be scrapped, they seem to be accountable to no one.
You would think that the country is small enough and central government should be able to maximise regions' capabilities, but alas, not so.

Nemi

liammur wrote: »

You would think that the country is small enough and central government should be able to maximise regions' capabilities, but alas, not so.

What I was getting at more is that its hardly all down to central government. Surely, at some stage, its just up to people to assemble a life out of whatever resources are available within the region. My point about the Mid West was it seems to have had quite generous resources.

And, for the sake of argument, the airport with the 3,000 metre runway is there. Its not that these resources have vanished into somebody's travel claim. Plus, there's a long-established development agency headquartered in the area, and so forth.

My point is more to wonder what sort of governance structure you need to bring all that together. I mean, I'd guess a lot of the board of Shannon Development probably are local notables in the region. So its not as if its accountable to some shady group who cannot be identified.

I just feel whatever went wrong in the Mid West must give some indication of what mistakes are to be avoided.

liammur

I agree fully.

Mid west's problem has been the failure to attract IDA jobs since 1997. These are the drivers of a region. Less than 1,000 speaks volumes.

Now, who would you blame for this, the IDA, the government, local authorities? Probably them all.

Nemi

liammur wrote: »

Now, who would you blame for this, the IDA, the government, local authorities? Probably them all.

We could, but I'm just a little wary of the 'we're all a little to blame' sort of approach.

In any event, I think the assumption that regional development is all about attracting FDI is actually a large part of the problem. I don't think FDI is ever (strategically) intended to be a perpetual driver of growth. The intention is that technology and skills transfer should take place. For the sake of argument, there should now be a core of managers and workers skilled through their exposure to working for Dell.

The problem we seem to have is making something of that exposure. And its hard to see what's missing.

But, mostly, I don't think it can quickly be dismissed as "Sure, the State supplied all necessary infrastructure here - University, port, airport, local Development agency; they just forgot to turn on the 'FDI jobs' hose, which is all they ever needed to do".

This might be the wrong thread, but I think there's a more fundamental discussion to be had about what our beliefs are about how the economy works. For my part, I don't believe 'jobs' are something invented in Texas and imported into Ireland via the IDA.

liammur

Nemi wrote: »

We could, but I'm just a little wary of the 'we're all a little to blame' sort of approach.

In any event, I think the assumption that regional development is all about attracting FDI is actually a large part of the problem. I don't think FDI is ever (strategically) intended to be a perpetual driver of growth. The intention is that technology and skills transfer should take place. For the sake of argument, there should now be a core of managers and workers skilled through their exposure to working for Dell.

The problem we seem to have is making something of that exposure. And its hard to see what's missing.

But, mostly, I don't think it can quickly be dismissed as "Sure, the State supplied all necessary infrastructure here - University, port, airport, local Development agency; they just forgot to turn on the 'FDI jobs' hose, which is all they ever needed to do".

This might be the wrong thread, but I think there's a more fundamental discussion to be had about what our beliefs are about how the economy works. For my part, I don't believe 'jobs' are something invented in Texas and imported into Ireland via the IDA.

I would regard you as certainly 1 of best contributors I've come across on the boards, and I don't think we'd be in the mess we are in if had people like you in policy decision making roles.