Does Ireland have too many local authorities?

Ren2k7 · 10-07-2010 10:16pm #1

Hi all. First post on boards. I couldn't find a thread dealing with this topic so I went and created a thread regarding Irelands local authorities and whether there is too many of them.

Given the state of our countrys finances is it worth having 34 local bodies for a population of just under 4.5 million people and are we getting value for money from the various county and city councils.

Below is a map of Ireland I knocked together showing a "possible" amalgamation of local government into 9 regional authorities each centred around one major growth town/city as well as population figures.

This is only a suggestion of one possible scenario. Any thoughts?

Sulmac · 10-07-2010 10:58pm

First of all, welcome to boards.ie, OP - based on your first post, you seem to have a lot of good ideas.

Local government in Ireland is a mess. Almost everyone agrees with this. Local authorities are strapped for cash, have little power and are dependent on the central government for funding.

We have 34 county/city councils and 75 town/borough councils. That is quite a lot, given the vast differences in population and demography. I mean, look at these extremes:

Dublin City Council - 506,211
...
Leitrim County Council - 28,950

and

Dundalk Town Council - 29,037
...
Ballybay Town Council - 407

Another problem these authorities have is their borders. Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and (to an extent) Galway cities stretch far beyond their borders into neighbouring authorities, some towns (Athlone, Drogheda) are split by county boundaries. This GAA county mentality has got to stop. Local government should be based around urban areas (or, in rural areas, groups of villages), not the system given to us by the British over a hundred years ago.

I would favour something like you have proposed, OP, and have previously suggested having a two-tier system (like most European countries do) based around something like the eight regions (as all but one - Border - are based around a relatively large urban area), with smaller municipalities (similar to the old rural districts and based around cities, towns, certain large villages, groups of islands, etc.) inside each region.

Regions would be given a lot of power from the central government to run themselves (such as transport), and crucially, fund themselves. Municipalities would be pretty much similar to what local authorities are now - dealing with day-to-day issues such as refuse collection, local parks, etc. They could also raise their own revenue, but would also get money from the regional government.

The general idea is that we have a more streamlined system, and, more importantly, that we can get the national government to care about national issues - not local issues which could be dealt with at a municipal or regional level!

mikemac · 10-07-2010 11:13pm

You expect Kerry people to have their regional centre in Cork? :eek::eek::eek:
Oh, I predict riots on the streets of Tralee!

Ah no, it's seems a well worked solution, welcome to boards.

In our area we have a town council, an urban district council and a county council.
And it's often the same people on all of them, it achieves very little.
First two posts here are good and could work

As said, how are you going to overcome the GAA mentality though, it won't be easy but reform could be pushed through

Ren2k7 · 10-07-2010 11:42pm

Thanks for the welcome. Both of your replies bring up a good point. Many councils and their constituents, especially in the rural heartlands, will oppose any changes to the death as they would feel it intrudes on their regional identity and culture, even if it may be beneficial to them in the long term.

A similar plan was made in the UK a few years ago with the then Labour government attempting to bring in "Regional Assemblies" but it was voted down in the first referendum as voters saw it as another unnecessary quango. Any attempt to regionalise Ireland would have to be done in a way that showed to the electorate that any boundary changes would be beneficial to them and not just another layer of bureaucracy but rather a more efficient form of local government.

As for Kerry having Cork as their regional capital they could always rename the city Kerry

. I doubt that would placate the Healy-Rae family up in the kingdom though.

Wolfe Tone · 11-07-2010 12:50am

Personally I think those regions are a bit too big.

Ren2k7 · 11-07-2010 2:45am

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I think those regions are a bit too big.

The idea I was getting at was to provide a more efficient form of local government based on population not on the physical size of the area. Each region would have a fairly uniform population size and would be self funding through municipal taxes controlled by the regional government, albeit with central government looking after stuff like Gardai, HSE, social welfare, etc.

Each region would have all the powers currently held by city and county councils but would also have certain revenue raising powers.

The map I put together is a rough idea but is based on the concept of regions in ireland as the second poster mentioned. The traditional 32 county structure would still be used in certain situations, after all the six counties in Northern Ireland were abolished years ago but are still retained for cultural and sporting events, eg. GAA. This would still be the case in the Republic.

By moving powers away from central government to the regions it would go some way in demonstrating to Unionists in the north that their own affairs could still be retained and not infringed upon in the event of a United Ireland and that they need not fear encroachment by the government in Dublin.:) Constitutional provisionals could be put into place to ensure the rights of regional governments is not interfered with.

In fact I would go further and say that the regions would constitute the federalisation of Ireland and provide far greater democracy and accountability than the mangled mess we have at the minute.

Overheal · 11-07-2010 5:20am

and excuse the gov't to make Cork City the only maternity ward in the Southwest, for example?

From what I recall people were livid enough about the Ennis-Limerick situation, and their argument had merit when it came to A&E.

As it stands if you want to analogize yourself with the US, Ireland is already doing on par with State and County level local authority by land area. I think its more a question of better defining who is responsible for what; not consolidating.

Ren2k7 · 11-07-2010 5:35am

With regard health services I can see merit in the idea of centralising certain non-emergency services, e.g. outpatients appointments, cancer treatment, specialist care, etc in regional centres as is the policy of the HSE today. I live in the midlands so for major treatment I would be expected to travel to Mullingar and probably Tullamore once Mullingar is downgraded. This is unfortunate but is to be expected as there isn't the population density to sustain many of these services in many scattered locations.

However, I agree that A+E services should not be cut and centralised miles from many people. If fact, it should be the one health service that is kept as local as possible as common sense will tell you that in an emergency you don't want to be travelling miles to the nearest A+E department because the one in your town hospital was closed as what has recently happened with Monaghan Hospital and Louth County Hospital in Dundalk.

gandalf · 11-07-2010 9:09am

I think 9 is still too many. I would suggest 4 or 5 based on the provinces with one LA around the great Dublin area. Far too much duplication and waste as its stands for the population we have in this country. Also give councillors more decision making power and make them full time paid positions.

chughes · 11-07-2010 9:25am

On the face of it Op, what you are suggesting makes sense. However, this being Ireland, it hasn't a hope in hell of being implemented. If you look at what happened when the various health authorities were amalgamated into the HSE, you still had the same employee structures which meant that all the senior positions that were available before the HSE were still there afterwards. These senior positions are much coveted and I can't see a situation being allowed to happen where senior councils positions such as county manager would be allowed to disappear.

Too many people have a vested interest in keeping the status quo so while your idea makes a lot of sense, it's just not going to happen.

rugbyman · 11-07-2010 9:31am

It is interesting to read this thread.
For some years now our County Council has been taking some functions from the three townCouncils
I believe that considerable efficiencies have been introduced. I have no doubt that hundreds of jobs could be eliminated by handing over much more to the County Council., I would imagine that retiring workers will not be replaced in many cases.the process of elimination of the minor councils is actually in train and may not be a bad thing.

the present crisis has made these changes both more necessary and easier to bring about.

the great changes referred to by others, doing away with counties may well be efficient but may be a bit much at one time.
Vive la Change.

regards,Rugbyman

rugbyman · 11-07-2010 9:35am

Gandalf,
re your comments on more money and more decision making powers is a wo edged sword.

responsible civil servants can make good decisions on an issue and get it by the councillors, but more power to the councillors will make fudge decisions ,based on their localities.

Though i can see merit in your proposal.

Regards, rugbyman

silverharp · 11-07-2010 10:05am

if you wanted efficiency gains from a local government structure, I'd go for a structure based roughly on the provences except 3 not 4. Anything smaller and you are into serious duplication of administration costs and local empire building.

Ren2k7 · 11-07-2010 2:51pm

chughes wrote: »

On the face of it Op, what you are suggesting makes sense. However, this being Ireland, it hasn't a hope in hell of being implemented. If you look at what happened when the various health authorities were amalgamated into the HSE, you still had the same employee structures which meant that all the senior positions that were available before the HSE were still there afterwards. These senior positions are much coveted and I can't see a situation being allowed to happen where senior councils positions such as county manager would be allowed to disappear.

Too many people have a vested interest in keeping the status quo so while your idea makes a lot of sense, it's just not going to happen.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you on this

. Wasn't the old health boards referred to as "The Eleven Kingdoms" due to the way senior roles within each board were coveted by local politicians and ruled them like their own personal fiefdoms.

That would be the biggest worry I would have if amalgamation of local bodies took place but a cull of public sector workers in duplicate roles did not occur.

Sulmac · 11-07-2010 3:06pm

My own idea for a regional system would be something like this:

The black dots would be the regional "capitals" (the Midlands one is Athlone).

murphaph · 11-07-2010 3:17pm

Fair play OP, have been in favour of serious reduction in the number of agencies involved in local government for ages.

Seriously, there are BILLIONS to be saved in ireland, the government has barely scratched the surface. The ugly word is redundancies but ultimately Ireland doesn't need 40 odd payroll departments processing pay for all those local authorities, such "admin" functions could be seriously streamlined with NO EFFECT on services to the end user (except those services becoming cheaper).

I think this reform will have to come some day tbh.

Ren2k7 · 11-07-2010 3:26pm

Sulmac wrote: »

My own idea for a regional system would be something like this:

The black dots would be the regional "capitals" (the Midlands one is Athlone).

Your suggestion is quite similar to the current regions model used in Ireland.

From Wikipedia

I think having roughly 8 regions would be the optimum number. It's still important to ensure regions are not to large to be distant and remote from its citizens so I don't think having the counties merged into four provinces would be effective.

murphaph · 11-07-2010 3:41pm

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I think having roughly 8 regions would be the optimum number. It's still important to ensure regions are not to large to be distant and remote from its citizens so I don't think having the counties merged into four provinces would be effective.

I think the current setup leaves people feeling about as remote from democracy as it's possible to feel as they believe everything of importance is decided "up in Dublin" and Dubs think the rural clique in Leinster House pull all the strings. Nobody is happy with the current setup (except the vested interests).

At present, many people (a majority?) call their local TD about that pothole, before the council. This mentality has got to change.

Sulmac · 11-07-2010 3:43pm

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Your suggestion is quite similar to the current regions model used in Ireland.

I think having roughly 8 regions would be the optimum number. It's still important to ensure regions are not to large to be distant and remote from its citizens so I don't think having the counties merged into four provinces would be effective.

I based it off the current regions, which have the right idea (being based around large cities/towns), but are unfortunately themselves made up of the current county councils.

North Mayo has gone to the North West region, since it's closer to Sligo than Galway.

North Clare (around the Burren) gone to the West, since it's closer to Galway than Limerick.

North Kerry to the Mid-West, since it's closer to Limerick than Cork.

Parts of Roscommon have gone to the Midlands, so as to not "split" towns like Athlone.

Louth has gone from the Border region to the new "Capital" region, which emcompasses the current Greater Dublin Area and bits of neighbouring counties (like South Monaghan).

I don't like the current set up of not having all of the Greater Dublin Area as one region, since Dublin's influence (in terms of services and commuters) stretches far beyond the old "County Dublin" boundaries.

The general idea was to get rid of the "sticky-outy" bits that the current regions have, and trying to make sure no part of any region is more than, say, 100km from the "capital" (although that's hard to do with the "Border" region!).

Ren2k7 · 11-07-2010 4:04pm

Sulmac wrote: »

I based it off the current regions, which have the right idea (being based around large cities/towns), but are unfortunately themselves made up of the current county councils.

North Mayo has gone to the North West region, since it's closer to Sligo than Galway.

North Clare (around the Burren) gone to the West, since it's closer to Galway than Limerick.

North Kerry to the Mid-West, since it's closer to Limerick than Cork.

Parts of Roscommon have gone to the Midlands, so as to not "split" towns like Athlone.

Louth has gone from the Border region to the new "Capital" region, which emcompasses the current Greater Dublin Area and bits of neighbouring counties (like South Monaghan).

I don't like the current set up of not having all of the Greater Dublin Area as one region, since Dublin's influence (in terms of services and commuters) stretches far beyond the old "County Dublin" boundaries.

The general idea was to get rid of the "sticky-outy" bits that the current regions have, and trying to make sure no part of any region is more than, say, 100km from the "capital" (although that's hard to do with the "Border" region!).

There is centainly a case to be made for establishing a boundries commission to look into this matter and take on these suggestions. I doubt we here on this thread have been the first to suggest such proposals. In fact I recall some time ago reading a report calling for a regions based approach to local government with each region centred around a high growth centre.

Though I doubt any of their recommendations will be implemented such as is Ireland.:(

Ren2k7 · 11-07-2010 4:07pm

murphaph wrote: »

At present, many people (a majority?) call their local TD about that pothole, before the council. This mentality has got to change.

I know exactly what you mean. I've heard of people in my area ringing their local TD about getting a council house. Surely the name 'council house' would suggest you call the council you live in

Sulmac · 11-07-2010 8:01pm

Ren2k7 wrote: »

There is centainly a case to be made for establishing a boundries commission to look into this matter and take on these suggestions. I doubt we here on this thread have been the first to suggest such proposals. In fact I recall some time ago reading a report calling for a regions based approach to local government with each region centred around a high growth centre.

What needs to be done is for them to get a blank map and draw completely new boundaries, not taking into consideration the "traditional" provincial, county or city boundaries.

Many reports have suggested a city-region based approach to local government and infrastructural development, most recently this one from Engineers Ireland that says we should base development around key centres. It would appear to be a no-brainer but it would be hell to implement due to the prevailing GAA-mentality in a lot of the country.

edit: I forgot to say, a few months ago it was reported that the government was going to bring in regional assemblies based on the current eight regions from the map above. It's a step in the right direction, if it ever comes to pass, but I'm sure it'll be implemented in some half-hearted way and we'll just end up with another layer of bureaucracy and QUANGOs.

Ren2k7 · 11-07-2010 10:16pm

A new system that would leave Ireland with three tiers of government is expected to be proposed in a white paper to be published before the summer. The new system of regional government would include elected regional assemblies, and would result in Ireland having local, regional and national government tiers - as in many European countries.
..
Some in Fianna Fáil fear that the new proposals would erode the power of the 34 existing local authorities, and the party has set up an internal group to examine the plans. There is particular unease among senators - who rely on county councillors for their support - about proposals that would limit the current councils’ powers.

Why doesn't any of this suprise me? Do politicians only care about their own job security instead of the good of the nation or am I being to cynical? :mad:

To be honest, these plans for regional assemblies can only work if each region completely replaces the amalgamated council areas instead of simply adding another layer of government to an already bloated public sector mess.

Below the regional level there would be the regional capital district council, e.g. Cork City Council in the South West Region and other towns of a minimum size in the region would have town councils. Apart from that villages, townlands and the countryside in general would be the responsibility of the regional government.

But this is Ireland we're talking about so these plans will never see the light of day

. I guess we'll see what's in the details when if the white paper is presented soon.

Sulmac · 11-07-2010 10:48pm

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Below the regional level there would be the regional capital district council, e.g. Cork City Council in the South West Region and other towns of a minimum size in the region would have town councils. Apart from that villages, townlands and the countryside in general would be the responsibility of the regional government.

What I would do is have municipalities below the regions. I would base it off a system found in countries like the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark (in particular - they have just undergone huge reform of local government) and Sweden.

Each substantial urban area (say, population of over 10,000-15,000) would have a municipality covering all of it (so the Dublin urban area would be across one municipality, not four local authorities like now) plus neighbouring rural areas.

In less "urban" areas, smaller towns and villages would "group" together to form one single municipality and share services. This would cover both urban and rural areas.

Certain islands (e.g. Achill Island), groups of islands (e.g. Aran Islands) and peninsulas (e.g. Inishowen) would also form their own municipalities, due to geography.

I would also have "sub-municipalities" in Dublin, due mainly to the huge size the Dublin urban area has (over 1 million people), like they have in Amsterdam. Each would have around 100,000 people but would be answerable to the main municipal authority.

Basically, the idea is that every bit of territory is part of a municipality, a region and then the State.

The idea of municipalities is to deal with local issues at the lowest level - not at a regional or national level. Local roads (potholes!), local housing, local (primary) schools, waste management, etc. should all be dealt with at the local level.

At the regional level we would have regional roads, some health services (mainly provision in the form of providing hospitals and health centres), public transport, tourism, higher education, etc. dealt with.

The national level should be reserved to issues of national importance, such as the economy or justice.

Also, I would give regions and municipalities a degree of revenue-raising abilities.

I know that, on the face of it, it appears that my idea just creates a huge amount of bureaucracy and QUANGOs, but the idea is to streamline services and have clear places to go with certain issues - instead of running off to Leinster House or your local TD every time you have a problem!

nuac · 11-07-2010 11:29pm

Interesting topic.

Biggest problem with local government finances is that after abolition of rates on residences in 1977 the funding lost was never properly replaced.

central government controls the cash and the decision making.

It should be looked at from the bottom up. There are some very successful Town Councils ( former Urban District Councils ) who have achieved a lot for their towns.

Nijmegen · 11-07-2010 11:57pm

In Ireland the tendency has largely been towards centralisation of power in Government, with a large body of local quangos left behind to suck up money and throw it around.

There is no strategy, and it is correct to say that we follow a rigid "GAA County" approach, and one of the biggest immediate issues to any rationalisation of local government is thrown up immediately in the pissing contest that becomes Kerry getting rolled into a local area with a HQ in Cork.

Ireland is a very, very small country, and we could do things a lot more efficiently if we had better local government - larger control areas with the ability to make a real impact.

But our political class like to put all the power into Dublin.

Another issue, relating to Dublin, is how in a more "federal" system we would have to redistribute wealth of the country - we could not go to a largely local-tax system because Dublin and the East tend to subsidize a huge amount of what goes on out West.

All issues to be overcome. But in general a sensible look and solution to local government should be found.

But this being the banana republic of Ireland, don't hold your breath.

silverharp · 12-07-2010 8:22am

Nijmegen wrote: »

Another issue, relating to Dublin, is how in a more "federal" system we would have to redistribute wealth of the country - we could not go to a largely local-tax system because Dublin and the East tend to subsidize a huge amount of what goes on out West.

Which should stop, people ought to create or follow opportunities rather then spending their time lobbying for other taxpayers to support them. It just adds to the cost of living or everyone.

Nijmegen · 12-07-2010 8:54am

silverharp wrote: »

Which should stop, people ought to create or follow opportunities rather then spending their time lobbying for other taxpayers to support them. It just adds to the cost of living or everyone.

In any country, federal or otherwise, one part of the country subsidises another. Even in the US, home of the free market etc etc.

silverharp · 12-07-2010 1:34pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

In any country, federal or otherwise, one part of the country subsidises another. Even in the US, home of the free market etc etc.

it doesnt make it right or sensible. Most goverments have a habit of developing unsustainable practices which are based more on political lobbying rather then a prudent use of scarce resources.

Ren2k7 · 12-07-2010 7:07pm

The regional assemblies approach will probably be implemented in a half-arsed manner due to massive lobbying by Fianna Fail TDs and councillors and other assorted rural sorts so at the very least the government should merge some of the counties together.

For example. Cavan and Monaghan already share some services like being part of the same HSE hospital group so they could be merged. It would be relatively easy to carry out and efficiency savings could be achieved. Likewise the Westmeath County Council National Roads Office is responsible for some Longford national routes (N4, N5) as well as the two counties forming a single Dail constituency would make the merger of these two practical and sensible.

Pittens · 12-07-2010 7:49pm

The real problem here is the GAA. The GAA has inspired an almost ethnic like belief in the county system. I suppose the "historic" counties could be maintained as a non-legal fiction for the GAA, and other events.

otherwise good idea, OP.

Does Ireland have too many local authorities?

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