Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Third of WHO advisers received support from drug firms

Options
13»

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    Pace2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    sligopark wrote: »
    Yes plenty of evidence past chemotherapy and this cancer scare tactic
    There is plenty of evidence showing chemo is effective in treating certain forms of cancer; I think the burden of proof is on you here to show me otherwise.

    Hint: LInking to Naturalnews or http://naturesmother.myfreeforum.org/(WTF?} won't do much to convince people.
    or HIV scare tactic - Gaysus I can get HIV from eating my greens and that nasty Gerson therapy LOL
    Who the hell ever suggested anything like this?
    You guys sound like drug pushers
    You sound like a pseudoskeptic conspiricary nut, but then none of use are perfect.
    truly healthy lifestyles or the latest trends or useless advice from their GP that includes taking the latest drug pushed?
    People who eat their greens, avoid smoking and drinking too much alcohol etc. Few people are immune to cancer.

    And whilst I do think drugs are overprescribed for minor ailments, it is actually the CAM proponents who are pushing pills and potions, claiming they are essential for a healthy lifestyle.

    How many healthy robust people do you know that fall to TB or deep infection (which I presume follows some operation for ill health and so rules out the healthy robust individuals I know)?
    There was an outbreak of TB in St. Joseph's School a few years ago, affecting more than 10 students. All were under 18, and presumably quite healthy and robust.

    Anyone who suffers a deep wound, which are not confined to the operating theatre, is susceptible to a nasty infection which could well be fatal without antibiotics.

    I am not the biggest fan of Big Pharma myself, but completely denouncing every single treatment they offer is insanity.


  • Options
    #63
    sligopark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Do you even know what that word means?

    yes and I doubt that you know much about epigenetics or you wouldn't have posted something so ignorant of the latest discovery in genetics


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Gee, what would I be basing that on? Vaccines? Antibiotics? Antimalarials? Immunosuppressants?

    A tip - check out WHO Dale scales etc... and don't forget the impact of hygiene


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    There is plenty of evidence showing chemo is effective in treating certain forms of cancer; I think the burden of proof is on you here to show me otherwise.

    sorry you brought up the scare tactic I countered it sorry but its rubbish - you prove that nothing works better than poisoning your body till the choice comes down to the cancer or you.

    But I will give you a lead - Michael Gearin Tosh - Living Proof here - 10 pence will buy you a copy


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    Who the hell ever suggested anything like this?

    The HIV scare? sorry not you but bleg


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    Few people are immune to cancer.

    you would be surprised - perhaps stating such before actually understanding the role of immunity and its role in recognising, fighting and preventing is a bit premature


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    There was an outbreak of TB in St. Joseph's School a few years ago, affecting more than 10 students. All were under 18, and presumably quite healthy and robust.

    and no doubt vaccinated too


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    Anyone who suffers a deep wound, which are not confined to the operating theatre, is susceptible to a nasty infection which could well be fatal without antibiotics.

    sorry not unless it is filled with earth rust or sh1te

    never had antibiotics after any cuts requiring A&E attention and I have had heaps (and gave up the obligatory tetanus a long time ago) nor was I ever offered


  • Options
    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,427 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sligopark wrote: »
    never had antibiotics after any cuts requiring A&E attention and I have had heaps (and gave up the obligatory tetanus a long time ago) nor was I ever offered

    They obviously weren't that deep then.

    Claiming that the drugs industry has done nothing to help mankind is utterly farcical. Antibiotics and vaccination are 2 of the major reasons for increased life expectancy and decreased infant mortality in the developed world.

    Sure, big pharmaceutical companies are always going to be focused on reaping maximum financial benefit, that is their prerogative. I would also agree that the pharmaceutical industry and the medical profession can be a bit too cosy at times.

    However to say that as a whole the pharmaceutical/medical advances of the past 100 years, and particularly from 1928 onwards have not been beneficial to mankind is completley ridiculous.


  • Options
    #65
    sligopark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They obviously weren't that deep then.

    to the bone and into the deeper layers - on at least two occasions requiring surgical consult
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Claiming that the drugs industry has done nothing to help mankind is utterly farcical. Antibiotics and vaccination are 2 of the major reasons for increased life expectancy and decreased infant mortality in the developed world.

    are you sure - according to whom?

    What other pay offs health wise have there been?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I would also agree that the pharmaceutical industry and the medical profession can be a bit too cosy at times.

    +1


  • Options
    #66
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,188 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    sligopark wrote: »
    yes and I doubt that you know much about epigenetics or you wouldn't have posted something so ignorant of the latest discovery in genetics
    I'd be lying if I said I was. Care to elaborate with a source? I did do a module on chromatin remodelers for my degree but if you're referring to gene therapy, that's a long way away yet though it has shown promise. Also, it would not do much in the case of allele-dominant disorders like Huntingdon's disease.
    sligopark wrote: »
    A tip - check out WHO Dale scales etc... and don't forget the impact of hygiene

    Hygiene is rather effective but it can only do so much.
    sligopark wrote: »
    But I will give you a lead - Michael Gearin Tosh - Living Proof here - 10 pence will buy you a copy

    So... one guy doesn't die of cancer and you think that disproves the field of medicine?
    sligopark wrote: »
    and no doubt vaccinated too

    No vaccine is 100% effective at protecting 100% of those vaccinated. It just gives your body a much better chance at eliminating the pathogen before it can establish an infection. Mycobacterium tuberculosis is an extremely difficult pathogen to eliminate and the inflammation it can cause is just as damaging as the microbe itself. It is treated with an extremely strict 6 month regimen of antibiotics

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    sligopark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I'd be lying if I said I was.

    no problem - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090412081315.htm


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Hygiene is rather effective but it can only do so much.

    hygiene has been primary - which wouild you rather grant a third world country - the money to establish clean water and food or the money to vaccinate?

    Why does everyone force them to vaccinate?

    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    So... one guy doesn't die of cancer and you think that disproves the field of medicine?

    sorry you need to read how he (as an Oxford Don) came to the conclusion chemotherapy was not the be all end all that it has been made out to be and why he chose an evidence based approach.


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    No vaccine is 100% effective at protecting 100% of those vaccinated. It just gives your body a much better chance at eliminating the pathogen before it can establish an infection.

    whilst it is supposed to work as such it does not.

    And the claim of 100% is exactly what is claimed with vaccine swith the excuse that lack of herd immunity renders this less (which of course is a load of sh1te)


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Mycobacterium tuberculosis is an extremely difficult pathogen to eliminate and the inflammation it can cause is just as damaging as the microbe itself. It is treated with an extremely strict 6 month regimen of antibiotics

    Would agree and the mutations seen between different populations of TB and the event of world wide migrant movement has rendered the vaccinations useless at best and contributory at worst.


  • Options
    #68
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,188 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    sligopark wrote: »
    no problem - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090412081315.htm

    I don't see anything here which would lead to a cure to genetic disorders. I already knew this from my degree. Epigenetics is about gene regulation. The problem with genetic disorders is that a gene's function is either absent or decreased.
    sligopark wrote: »
    hygiene has been primary - which wouild you rather grant a third world country - the money to establish clean water and food or the money to vaccinate?

    Well.. the food & drink obviously. Vaccines don't keep you alive, they protect you from infection by certain infectious diseases. The immune system is an expensive piece of kit. No vaccine will do any good if you're too malnourished to respond to it.
    sligopark wrote: »
    sorry you need to read how he (as an Oxford Don) came to the conclusion chemotherapy was not the be all end all that it has been made out to be and why he chose an evidence based approach.

    This proves nothing. You need a much bigger sample size than 1 person.
    sligopark wrote: »
    whilst it is supposed to work as such it does not.

    And the claim of 100% is exactly what is claimed with vaccine swith the excuse that lack of herd immunity renders this less (which of course is a load of sh1te)

    What do you mean it doesn't. I've never heard anyone claim any vaccine was 100% effective. I know someone who got the full MMR course and she still contracted measles but most people didn't when it was going around. Vaccines only decrease the chance of you developing an infection. They introduce your immune system to a pathogen so it can recognise and clear it in future encounters.
    sligopark wrote: »
    Would agree and the mutations seen between different populations of TB and the event of world wide migrant movement has rendered the vaccinations useless at best and contributory at worst.

    Mutations do not render vaccines useless. And 10 vaccinated people contracting TB does not disprove the efficacy of vaccination. And if you do not receive the antibiotics you die anyway. Seems like an easy choice from here.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Options
    #69
    sligopark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't see anything here which would lead to a cure to genetic disorders. I already knew this from my degree. Epigenetics is about gene regulation. The problem with genetic disorders is that a gene's function is either absent or decreased.

    I never mentioned genetic disorders you did. I simply mentioned epigenetics and then you relayed your lackof knowledge of such.


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The immune system is an expensive piece of kit. No vaccine will do any good if you're too malnourished to respond to it.

    Sorry its not - its free and can be primed better with normal childhood diseases that now are scary killers


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    This proves nothing. You need a much bigger sample size than 1 person.

    sorry given your admitted lack of genetics and presumably health care science and his qualifications who are you to talk?

    Personally I ll take his educated and well thought out reason any day rather than someone blindly following a faith


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    What do you mean it doesn't. I've never heard anyone claim any vaccine was 100% effective. I know someone who got the full MMR course and she still contracted measles but most people didn't when it was going around. Vaccines only decrease the chance of you developing an infection. They introduce your immune system to a pathogen so it can recognise and clear it in future encounters.

    and when that pathogen mutates? What next - the vaccine still work?


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Mutations do not render vaccines useless. And 10 vaccinated people contracting TB does not disprove the efficacy of vaccination.


    . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-‘”. . . . . . . . . .``~.,
    . . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .“-.,
    . . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ”:,
    . . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\,
    . . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,}
    . . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.}
    . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:”. . . ./
    . . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./
    . . . . . . . /__.(. . .“~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./
    . . . . . . /(_. . ”~,_. . . ..“~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/
    . . . .. .{.._$;_. . .”=,_. . . .“-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~”; /. .. .}
    . . .. . .((. . .*~_. . . .”=-._. . .“;,,./`. . /” . . . ./. .. ../
    . . . .. . .\`~,. . ..“~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../
    . . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-”
    . . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\
    . . . . . . \`~.*-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..|,./.....\,__
    ,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|. . . . . . ..`=~-,
    . .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
    . . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--==``
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    And if you do not receive the antibiotics you die anyway. Seems like an easy choice from here.

    It might well be having had the vaccine predictably fail.


  • Options
    #70
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    sligopark wrote: »


    sorry you need to read how he (as an Oxford Don) came to the conclusion chemotherapy was not the be all end all that it has been made out to be and why he chose an evidence based approach.


    Funny. Penelope Dingle chose (read was told to choose by her husband) the same "evidence based" approach.


  • Options
    #71
    sligopark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    sock puppet wrote: »
    Funny. Penelope Dingle chose (read was told to choose by her husband) the same "evidence based" approach.

    Hardly comical but he is alive and she is not. How many chemo patients die during treatment or fail to survive five years plus?

    when we are on the vein of random internet links

    http://invw.org/chemo-main


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,188 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    You brought up epigenetics when I said that genetic disorders are incurable and alleviating the symptoms is the best we can do presently.
    And when I said the immune systems was expensive I meant in terms of amounts of energy and fuel it requires to function correctly.
    The Immune system can respond to tumours which might explain why this chap got better. However, due to the selection pressure and the buildup of mutations in our DNA as we age, the likelihood of developing a tumour invisible to the immune system increases.
    His qualifications are all arts ffs. Did you even read that link you posted?
    And, there are several types of vaccine available. Some involve dead organisms, some involve fragments of dead organisms. The idea is to expose these to the immune system which will retain the best fit antibodies and T cells to the exposed pathogen material. It would take quite a few mutations to get round this.
    Antibiotics, on the other had tend to block enzymes and proteins. A single base mutation in the pathogen DNA can block this. For example, Enterococci develop resistance to Vancomycin because of the addition of a single hydrogen to the cell wall. The reaction here is quite intricate. It also means that antibiotics tend not to be that toxic compared to other medications.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Options
    #73
    Pace2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    sligopark wrote: »
    I
    sorry given your admitted lack of genetics and presumably health care science and his qualifications who are you to talk?
    ie. You'll listen to rhetoric over hard science.

    You're claiming that there are better "natural" remedies for treating the forms of cancer for which chemo is used, and you think one book detailing one person's experience with these treatments is enough to confirm this, partially because he's an Oxford don (who is not trained in medicine).

    You're suggesting that HIV is simply "a scare."

    You're implying that there is little or no need for antibiotics, again because of the experiences of one person (you).

    You're saying all these things like they're common sense but they're not; they are fringe views and I'll state again that in such situations the onus is on you to provide evidence to the contrary - and by evidence I mean proper, peer-reviewed studies and not books about this one dude's non-medical opinion on cancer treatment or links to site for mothers wishing to give birth naturally.

    It's pretty harmless when someone thinks wild blue-green algae will make them live to 150 and give them a bigger dick, but views like yours are frankly dangerous.


  • Options
    #74
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    sligopark wrote: »
    Hardly comical but he is alive and she is not. How many chemo patients die during treatment or fail to survive five years plus?

    He isn't alive.


  • Options
    #75
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,188 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    +1.
    I don't like saying things straight out like that pace2008 but I more or less agree.

    My qualifications? I have a microbiology degree from Trinity and I am now doing a Biomedical Science masters. I have done Immunology research in St. James's Hospital and am now in the middle of another Immunology research project. It is a subject close to my heart and one I hope to spend the rest of my life in.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Options
    #76
    Corsendonk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Why can't the health care system apply the same rigereous high standards of hygiene that high risk food factories have in place? Doctors and nurses have minimal hygiene standards in place, they don't disrobe between zones. There seems to be a culture of poor controls in place.


  • Options
    #77
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,060 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    Why can't the health care system apply the same rigereous high standards of hygiene that high risk food factories have in place? Doctors and nurses have minimal hygiene standards in place, they don't disrobe between zones. There seems to be a culture of poor controls in place.

    That's more to do with poor management than anything else. Go into any private hospital, like the Beacon Clinic for example and you'll be amazed by the difference in standards. Millions are wasted every year in public healthcare on redtape and over-administration when it could be spent on improving basic standards within hospitals


  • Options
    #78
    sligopark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    sock puppet wrote: »
    He isn't alive.

    Sorry he lived on and recovered but died from a blood infection.

    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    My qualifications? I have a microbiology degree from Trinity and I am now doing a Biomedical Science masters. I have done Immunology research in St. James's Hospital and am now in the middle of another Immunology research project. It is a subject close to my heart and one I hope to spend the rest of my life in.

    perhaps you should begin with a brush up on epigenetics then


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    ie. You'll listen to rhetoric over hard science.

    You're claiming that there are better "natural" remedies for treating the forms of cancer for which chemo is used, and you think one book detailing one person's experience with these treatments is enough to confirm this, partially because he's an Oxford don (who is not trained in medicine).

    I am suggesting chemo is not the be all end all and it isn't.
    Pace2008 wrote: »
    You're suggesting that HIV is simply "a scare."

    Nope - misquote - bleg introduced it after you raised the scare tactic of 'what would you do if you had cancer?' like there wasn't a choice.


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    You're implying that there is little or no need for antibiotics, again because of the experiences of one person (you).

    I never have heard of anyone prescribed antibiotics post cut deep or otherwise although many have had tetanus on the same basis you refer to.

    Pace2008 wrote: »
    You're saying all these things like they're common sense

    They are

    Pace2008 wrote: »
    views like yours are frankly dangerous.

    this sounds like the catholic bishops of the eighties or further back when they forced belief in an earth at the centre of the universe and fought against Darwin... give it a rest

    Pace2008 wrote: »
    It's pretty harmless when someone thinks wild blue-green algae will make them live to 150 and give them a bigger dick

    blue algae makes your dick bigger??



    Besides all of which this is heading offtopic which is the pharmaceutical industry shaping world wide health policies using the WHO as a vehicle for wealth creation rather than health promotion.


  • Options
    #79
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,188 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    sligopark wrote: »
    perhaps you should begin with a brush up on epigenetics then

    Seems to me you need a proper introduction to the subject.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Options
    #80
    eightyfish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭eightyfish


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Go into any private hospital, like the Beacon Clinic for example and you'll be amazed by the difference in standards.

    Or go into any hospital in France, Germany, Canada or Australia an you will be amazed by the difference in standards.


Advertisement