The Borg are ****

Cookie_Monster

I think the Borg are **** and here’s why...
First appearance and Best of both worlds were really good but since then it has all been crap. Totally evil and unstoppable apart from a very good way of “killing” them thought up. Also what happened to the ship wreckage? A ship of that size would leave a huge quantity of wreckage that the Feds could pour over and analyze forever basically and come up with all sorts of tech gains.

First Contact:

Why send only one ship?
How come it does not take one shot to slag the entire launch area, the cube could take down Starfleet warships (akiras) with greater ease?
Why not go further back in time?
Why not transport to a major city and start assimilating everyone they meet?
Why not learn from that failure and go back in time in the Delta Quad and travel from there or meet past selves and improve.

Voyager:

Where to start, so many fails.
Final episode established a transwarp exit in the Sol system, why did they not use that previously and send dozens of ships directly to earth?
Assimilating Janeway, Tuvok & Torres, how can they not be aware that it hasn’t worked properly? Do they not have systems and diagnostics in place to foresee such problems? Why doesn’t the ship change to trap or kill them?
Why at any point after meeting the borg first do they never simply drop out of transwarp and frag Voyager or assimilate it. It had proven to be both a threat and a tech source.

Every episode from BOBW 2 waters them down to virtually nothing

nyarlothothep

I quite liked the next gen Borg episodes, they may have lost their unstoppable villains status as result of them but meh, I find scary villains to be a bit passe afterwhile, I Borg and Descent are among my favourite tng eps. First Contact was big stupid blockbuster film, yes I think it was pretty bad, the borg queen idea ruined the mystique of the borg although Alison Krige in the role was excellent.

Now voyager, there I totally agree. Voyager destroyed all that was good with trek, some might say enterprise but enterprise was just the Igor to Voyagers Frankenstein. Voyager also ruined the Q, everything it touched turned to sh1t. Do you remember the really lame ass klingon episode where some klingon woman becomes attracted to Harry? When I finished watching that I was like "I want one hour of my life back." As a result I refuse to recognize anything that happened in Voyager as being real and all the events that did happen are merely the delusions/implanted memories of the crew as they were sent back through space by the care taker.

Amtmann

The answer to your question is simple and disappointing: sloppy writing and poorly conceived plots.

CSaber

Problem with the Borg as a concept is there is only so much you can do with them. In their first appearance they are seen as relentless, hive-mind, beings interested in technology.
In BoBW they change in order to get part in the plot and are suddenly not interested in technology but assimilating people and civilisations.
And from then on they are seen like a virus trying to take over the galaxy by absorbing people into their collective and trying to reach perfection. Indeed in FC they go from assimilation chambers to being able to assimilate people through nanites launched from tubes in their hands.
And when we reach Voyager the Borg are on a Vendetta against humanity it seems, with the Voyager Borg bearing little resemblance to the Q Who? Borg.

The problem with the Borg as unstoppable villains is that our heroes need to stop them and each time our heroes win the Borg look less threatening. Bit like the Daleks in Dr. Who.

azezil

My take on it is that human's are more of a curiosity than anything else, not worth the effort of sending lots of ships to assimilate.

The Borg's quest for perfection makes humanity a low priority target, the queen describes human's as having "below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems". And Q warns Picard "that it's not interested in human lifeforms, only the ship's technology", which lets face it is far below borg level tech.

Cookie_Monster

azezil wrote: »

My take on it is that human's are more of a curiosity than anything else, not worth the effort of sending lots of ships to assimilate.

The Borg's quest for perfection makes humanity a low priority target, the queen describes human's as having "below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems". And Q warns Picard "that it's not interested in human lifeforms, only the ship's technology", which lets face it is far below borg level tech.

then why even send a time travelling ship?

Cookie_Monster

not canon but

star trek destiny reveals the borg to be started by humans, merged with Cealiar, guess that gives the obsession with humanity

azezil

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

then why even send a time travelling ship?

To resolve the temporal paradox

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

it's just bad bad writing, nothing that should be too unfamiliar to any fan of star trek

Johnny Storm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I think the Borg are **** and here’s why... Every episode from BOBW 2 waters them down to virtually nothing

I fully agree. ( I thought the one with "Hugh" was OK too.)
They are just like zombies in First Contact and totally over-used and burned out in Voyager

Riskymove

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

then why even send a time travelling ship?

my memory of the film is that the borg sphere created some sort of rift to escape being destroyed in a battle which sent it back.....and enterprise followed it

i dont think it was a planned trip to the past

Cookie_Monster

Riskymove wrote: »

my memory of the film is that the borg sphere created some sort of rift to escape being destroyed in a battle which sent it back.....and enterprise followed it

i dont think it was a planned trip to the past

but they clearly knew how to do it regardless, I highly doubt that it the 30 odd seconds that the battle changed they came up with time travel

Riskymove

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but they clearly knew how to do it regardless, I highly doubt that it the 30 odd seconds that the battle changed they came up with time travel

over the years there have been various examples of just that in star trek

'Captain, its theoretically possible....but never been tried!!!!' etc etc


anyway, amybe the Borg tried a few times...only for the 'time police from the future' so beloved of Star trek kept tackling them:rolleyes::rolleyes:

monkeypants

Agree with most of the points made here. The Borg were a scary race when we first met them in Q Who? as they weren't interested in negotiations or treaties and couldn't be slowed down much never mind stopped. As far as plot goes, the writers probably realised at the end of Best of Both Worlds that they couldn't stop the Borg, so they made up some nonsense where Picard gets them stuck in the Borg equivalent of a GOTO loop. And then they explode.

Voyager made it worse for me by showing that the Borg didn't control all of the Delta quadrant. Why bother travelling all the way to Earth, one ship at a time, if you haven't sorted out your own back yard?

First Contact and DSG worked for me due to what I felt was more realistic ship combat. TNG and Voyager both went with the idea of letting the other ship fire first, continue firing while the Enterprise/Voyager crew shake about in their seats before Picard/Janeway shout out "Return Fire," which they do. Once. One shot. The sequence then repeats and at some point a crew member while be thrown backwards as a pile of inconvenient firework hidden behind their console explodes. How many times did we nearly see Enterprise/Voyager get their asses handed to them? Enterprise D was supposed to carry 275 torpedoes; what I would have given to hear Picard shout "Mr. Worf, fire all torpedoes. If there are any left when we get back to Starbase X, I'm throwing you in the brig!"

Sorry about that off-topic rant.

As for time travel: everything's possible if you just reverse the polarity of something or other and/or use the "override" command which seems to be built into every computer system.

syklops

anyway, amybe the Borg tried a few times...only for the 'time police from the future' so beloved of Star trek kept tackling them

And in which series was the time Police introduced? Thats right, you guessed it! Voyager.

That entire season raped the star trek universe.

Enterprise at lesat was sufficiently different in a different time that it couldn't do massive damage to the Genre. Voyager though, was very similar ship(correct me if I am wrong but it was Excelsior class?) to the enterprise, almost identical uniforms etc. It was Star Trek: The Next Generation Lite.

Cookie_Monster

monkeypants wrote: »

Enterprise D was supposed to carry 275 torpedoes; what I would have given to hear Picard shout "Mr. Worf, fire all torpedoes. If there are any left when we get back to Starbase X, I'm throwing you in the brig!"

would loved to have seen an Akira using all 15 launchers in a scene actually...

Cookie_Monster

syklops wrote: »

And in which series was the time Police introduced? Thats right, you guessed it! Voyager.

That entire season raped the star trek universe.

Enterprise at lesat was sufficiently different in a different time that it couldn't do massive damage to the Genre. Voyager though, was very similar ship(correct me if I am wrong but it was Excelsior class?) to the enterprise, almost identical uniforms etc. It was Star Trek: The Next Generation Lite.

Intrepid actually, Excelsior class was the standard rustbucket fleet ship which had been around since movie 6

CSaber

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Intrepid actually, Excelsior class was the standard rustbucket fleet ship which had been around since movie 6

Movie 3!!

Have to remember initially the producers had a certain concept for Voyager. TV station said that's nice but really the most popular Trek series was TNG so can we have just a new version of that please?

cyrusdvirus

Wasn't RDM's little spat with the ST franchise driven by the fact that Voyager never showed the results of Battle Damage/ Got into a more worn look as time went on??

Apart from the Ep Year of Hell (one of Voyagers better ones) the ship always looked like it had just come from a Shipwash!!

Not comparing BSG and ANY of the ST franchise, but at least Galactica showed battle damage as the series went on.

I know that the technology aboard a SF ship is far advanced of the Colonial Fleet, what with replication units etc and that they could re-generate any bits of the ship that were knocked about etc, but (WARNING, ENTERING PLOT HOLE CITY HERE) wasn't there a limitation on replicator rations at the start of VOY? Then all of a sudden they had enough juice to do pretty much whatever they wanted....

norrie rugger

gatecrash wrote: »

(WARNING, ENTERING PLOT HOLE CITY HERE) wasn't there a limitation on replicator rations at the start of VOY? Then all of a sudden they had enough juice to do pretty much whatever they wanted....

Shur didn't Captain J risk the ship for some ****ing coffee

DirkVoodoo

First Contact: It's a movie, it made for a good premise despite the plot holes.

Voyager: Yes, they destroyed the borg. The whole point of the borg was they were unstoppable, it doesn't quite work when Janeway and her insufferable crew become the unstoppable force.

Awful, awful series. I know Ron Moore said it was one of his major problems with the series and something he rectified in BSG, but the whole idea of Voyager as a series made no sense. Everyone was so bloody happy to let Janeway and her principles sabotage every effort to get home, the ship never seemed to age and the only episodes I ever enjoyed were "year of hell" or the initial species 8472 storyline.

opinion guy

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

First Contact: It's a movie, it made for a good premise despite the plot holes.

Voyager: Yes, they destroyed the borg. The whole point of the borg was they were unstoppable, it doesn't quite work when Janeway and her insufferable crew become the unstoppable force.

Awful, awful series. I know Ron Moore said it was one of his major problems with the series and something he rectified in BSG, but the whole idea of Voyager as a series made no sense. Everyone was so bloody happy to let Janeway and her principles sabotage every effort to get home, the ship never seemed to age and the only episodes I ever enjoyed were "year of hell" or the initial species 8472 storyline.

Speaking of Species 8472 they went from being unstoppable baddies worse even than the Borg to friends in a few episodes. Its just Trek - its what they do. Remember when Klingons used to be scary ? Now they are just like aged 80's rockers who've drank too much over the years

DirkVoodoo

opinion guy wrote: »

Speaking of Species 8472 they went from being unstoppable baddies worse even than the Borg to friends in a few episodes. Its just Trek - its what they do. Remember when Klingons used to be scary ? Now they are just like aged 80's rockers who've drank too much over the years

Yeah that annoyed me no end, didn't Paris or Chakotay even try to bed one?

What annoyed me about Voyager is they took a lot "beams" to a whole new level. Every single storyline could be conveniently wrapped up by sending "an inverted tachyon pulse" or some other such nonsense. It was passable in the 90s for TNG, I though maybe Voyager would have grown up a bit since then and tried to make it feel like a lone ship struggling to get home rather than "The Borg? Oh, cycle through all our available beams until you find one that completely disables their ship".

opinion guy

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Yeah that annoyed me no end, didn't Paris or Chakotay even try to bed one?

heheeh - good job Riker or Kirk weren't around or there would be litter of human-8472 hybrids running about the place:D:P

CSaber

gatecrash wrote: »

Wasn't RDM's little spat with the ST franchise driven by the fact that Voyager never showed the results of Battle Damage/ Got into a more worn look as time went on??

Apart from the Ep Year of Hell (one of Voyagers better ones) the ship always looked like it had just come from a Shipwash!!

Not comparing BSG and ANY of the ST franchise, but at least Galactica showed battle damage as the series went on.

I know that the technology aboard a SF ship is far advanced of the Colonial Fleet, what with replication units etc and that they could re-generate any bits of the ship that were knocked about etc, but (WARNING, ENTERING PLOT HOLE CITY HERE) wasn't there a limitation on replicator rations at the start of VOY? Then all of a sudden they had enough juice to do pretty much whatever they wanted....

I think RDM said in an interview once that his experience on/with Voyager was one of his inspirations for BSG. So at least one positive came out of Voyager!

Lantus

The borg were a great adversary in TNG up to Both worlds.

First contact was a watchable action movie but fell down at the very near start.....

IF! The borg could travel back in time, why not just do it in the delta quadrant and then travel quietly through empty space to earth?

Once I realised that it was hardto stomach.

All the TNG movies have used 'angry picard' that shoots and kills and is so unlike the tv series that I was left wondering who he was quite often.

Enterprise has some superb episodes and I think the whole xindi thing was their downfall but the borg episode. ouch. The rwiters need to be renewed. and i don't mean like the new star trek film new blood.

normal people please. good writing where story and a protagonist mean something.

opinion guy

lol i loved first contact. Angry Pickard rocks

CSaber

I love FC. One of my favourite Trek films. Picard's 'The Line Must Be Drawn Here' scene is a classic.

norrie rugger

Execpt that it has plot holes that you could fly a Cube through

Magic Eight Ball

norrie rugger wrote: »

Execpt that it has plot holes that you could fly a Cube through

They literally did.. and it ended up in mid 21st century!

norrie rugger

Magic Eight Ball wrote: »

They literally did.. and it ended up in mid 21st century!

They only flew a sphere through lol

opinion guy

Pffftt.......plot holes:rolleyes:

It had action! Action action kick ass action. No bloody peace conferences or diplomatic missions. Ass-whooping abounds!!

Magic Eight Ball

norrie rugger wrote: »

They only flew a sphere through lol

I was waiting for that.

Stark

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Yeah that annoyed me no end, didn't Paris or Chakotay even try to bed one?

Paris got with the Klingon. Chakotay tried to bed a member of species 8472 in human disguise. I imagine the scene would be not unlike the octopus sex scene in "Galaxy quest".

norrie rugger

opinion guy wrote: »

Pffftt.......plot holes:rolleyes:

It had action! Action action kick ass action. No bloody peace conferences or diplomatic missions. Ass-whooping abounds!!

So not fully Star Trek.

Stark

http://www.theonion.com/video/trekkies-bash-new-star-trek-film-as-fun-watchable,14333/

opinion guy

Stark wrote: »

http://www.theonion.com/video/trekkies-bash-new-star-trek-film-as-fun-watchable,14333/

:D:D:D:D

IvySlayer

Voyager just ruined the Borg.

I loved them in First Contact and TNG. I'm glad DS9 writers had the sense not to touch the Borg.

Damn you Captain Painway :mad:

PeterIanStaker

opinion guy wrote: »

Pffftt.......plot holes:rolleyes:

It had action! Action action kick ass action. No bloody peace conferences or diplomatic missions. Ass-whooping abounds!!

ASSIMILATE THIS!!!!! :cool:

komodosp

Riskymove wrote: »

over the years there have been various examples of just that in star trek

'Captain, its theoretically possible....but never been tried!!!!' etc etc

That would have been a great ending to Voyager

The bridge is on fire, and the ship is about to explode, and the last line is Torres to Janeway, "Look captain, I told you it had never been tried!"

komodosp

I totally agree with the spirit of the post but...

A ship of that size would leave a huge quantity of wreckage that the Feds could pour over and analyze forever basically and come up with all sorts of tech gains.

In fairness though, that kind of justifies the Borg becoming less threatening.

All in all, though, Star Trek has kind of ruined premises like this. Time Travel and the Borg have been two of my favourite aspects of Star Trek, and both of them have been ruined by trivialising them

KenSwee

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I think the Borg are **** and here’s why...
First appearance and Best of both worlds were really good but since then it has all been crap. Totally evil and unstoppable apart from a very good way of “killing” them thought up. Also what happened to the ship wreckage? A ship of that size would leave a huge quantity of wreckage that the Feds could pour over and analyze forever basically and come up with all sorts of tech gains.

First Contact:

Why send only one ship?
How come it does not take one shot to slag the entire launch area, the cube could take down Starfleet warships (akiras) with greater ease?
Why not go further back in time?
Why not transport to a major city and start assimilating everyone they meet?
Why not learn from that failure and go back in time in the Delta Quad and travel from there or meet past selves and improve.

Voyager:

Where to start, so many fails.
Final episode established a transwarp exit in the Sol system, why did they not use that previously and send dozens of ships directly to earth?
Assimilating Janeway, Tuvok & Torres, how can they not be aware that it hasn’t worked properly? Do they not have systems and diagnostics in place to foresee such problems? Why doesn’t the ship change to trap or kill them?
Why at any point after meeting the borg first do they never simply drop out of transwarp and frag Voyager or assimilate it. It had proven to be both a threat and a tech source.

Every episode from BOBW 2 waters them down to virtually nothing

Cannon Fodder tries to explain the apparent lack of thunder the Borg apply to the Federation here.