do we live in a fair and equal country

blacksmith105

Hands up out there in forum land who think that Ireland is a fair and equal country to live in for the ordinary person

Lets take a look

1. Banks are bailed out by the taxpayer and will leave us with a bill for the next 20 years but yet they increase their charges and interest rates to prop up their bottom line and inflict suffering on the very people that saved them in the first place

2. Ordinary joe soap who is unable to pay a fine is being sent to prison by a legal system which has not changed since 1820 , Yet Ivor the engine scams the system for 80k gets caught and gets 20 days suspended from the senate on full pay no jail for him

3. We were told at the last budget that this was going to be the toughest ever and we were on the road to recovery , yet we hear that budget 2011 will take 800-1000 euro out the pockets of each family through extra charges be it increased income tax , green tax, etc etc etc

4. Our state services are top heavy and are one of the most expsensive not just in europe but the world, how many in the public sector have been made redundent as per the McCarthy report ..... NIL


Finally how many think that FF party will start giving goodies away in 2011 to try and buy the next election from the gob****es who voted them in the last one ..

Cookie_Monster

no its not, not in any way

fontanalis

I think Ireland takes the saying "it's not what you know but who you know" to a completely different level.

RonMexico

It is in me bollix.

RichardAnd

Of course it isn't and only a fool would expect it to be. If you look at history, one over bearing constant is human in equality and there is absolutely no reason to think this has gone away or will ever cease. You will never beat the system that is in place and no matter how irritating it is, your best bet is simply to make the best of what you can and not let yourself become bogged down by others.

changes

blacksmith105 wrote: »

Finally how many think that FF party will start giving goodies away in 2011 to try and buy the next election from the gob****es who voted them in the last one ..

Yeah they most certainly will start giving away the goodies in the runup to the next election and will prob get back in..... god help this country.

Our political system is rotten, we end up with useless people running for office. Its very sad.

Cookie_Monster

Its not only politics though, every aspect of Irish society is unequal and unfair.

Hard working people carry the most burden, those who do little get the most benefit.
Crime goes unpunished, sentencing is a joke
Ageism and sexism are alive and well in most services and industries in one form or other. Legislation backs this up in many cases.
Few state services actually operate in the customers favour, IE and hospitals a major case in point
Prices are extremely high for everything

ei.sdraob

define "fair"

The_Honeybadger

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Hard working people carry the most burden, those who do little get the most benefit.
Crime goes unpunished, sentencing is a joke
Ageism and sexism are alive and well in most services and industries in one form or other. Legislation backs this up in many cases.
Few state services actually operate in the customers favour, IE and hospitals a major case in point
Prices are extremely high for everything

+1 I think this is a fair summary. Why we tolerate it is a very interesting question, in 99% of other democracies Ivor Callely and others who have abused the espenses sytem would have resigned by now and would be facing police charges, NAMA would have been at least debated properly before being bulldozed through and people would be in jail for corporate crimes etc, I could go on. Why are we so tolerant as to let this go on, I don't think FF will get back in next term, but will probably only be out for one term, as FG / Labour will have to take some really unpopular decisions during their stint at the helm. "Ah sure what can ya do" is the response you would get from most people if you asked them for their thoughts on our current crisis. In answer to Op no this is not a fair and equitable country but what would have to happen in order for people to take to the streets I wonder?

hinault

Ireland is a deeply unfair and a deeply inequitable society.

For a society which is supposed to be founded on republican ideals (by republican I mean everyone being treated equally), we're a long way from that.

I also think that for a society who's educated class came through Roman Catholic educational system, it says it all that the main practitioners of deceit/deception are all products of that same education system.
(before anyone accuses me of being anti -Catholic, I am a practicing RC).

invinciblePRSTV

Ireland is a classic banana republic where the interests of the wealthy and political elites and pampered middle classes are put to the fore above all others. Let's do a checklist;

Endemic political corruption

State subsidies directed to those who need them the least

Cosseted professional classes

two tier health, law and education systems

old boys network

Political patronage/gombeenarchy

Gestapo

blacksmith105 wrote: »

Hands up out there in forum land who think that Ireland is a fair and equal country to live in for the ordinary person

Lets take a look

1. Banks are bailed out by the taxpayer and will leave us with a bill for the next 20 years but yet they increase their charges and interest rates to prop up their bottom line and inflict suffering on the very people that saved them in the first place

2. Ordinary joe soap who is unable to pay a fine is being sent to prison by a legal system which has not changed since 1820 , Yet Ivor the engine scams the system for 80k gets caught and gets 20 days suspended from the senate on full pay no jail for him

3. We were told at the last budget that this was going to be the toughest ever and we were on the road to recovery , yet we hear that budget 2011 will take 800-1000 euro out the pockets of each family through extra charges be it increased income tax , green tax, etc etc etc

4. Our state services are top heavy and are one of the most expsensive not just in europe but the world, how many in the public sector have been made redundent as per the McCarthy report ..... NIL


Finally how many think that FF party will start giving goodies away in 2011 to try and buy the next election from the gob****es who voted them in the last one ..

Fair for who the people or the politicians?

MrDarcy

This country is a joke. I was driving down last Cherry Orchard Hospital on Monday morning and I couldn't help but notice all the junkies getting out of and back into taxi's, there was a queue of taxi's outside the place where they get their drugs, all being paid for by the HSE no doubt, to collect their Methadone.

The same evening I met a friend who is trying to start a business to get himself off the dole but can't get assistance from any quarter. There is no government agency that will gve him a loan to get him off the ground and we are talking about a few hundred quid here.

However we have money to pay for taxi's to collect junkies at their house, bring them down for their drugs, pay for their taxi and their drugs and bring them back to their house, all paid for by the taxpayer.

And this is called "treatment" and if you object to this, you are told that these drug addicts need treatment and that you are anti-treatment of disadvantaged people/citizens. This sounds to me like about as much sense as giving an chronic alcoholic a gift voucher for a Molloy's Liquer store every week, paying for a taxi for them to go down to Molloy's and back and doing all of this in the name of "much needed treatment"...

I feel as a country we seriously need to cop the f*ck on and have a look at ourselves. Paying tax payers money for drug addicts to get free drugs and taxi's for collecting drugs?!?!?!? Why don't the HSE just not give them a f*cking carry out/"Phone your drug order into us", service and drop the drugs to their house???

We are so stupid in this country, we'd put up with anything. There is nothing that could be put on the 9 O' Clock news tonight or any other night that would cause us to look at ourselves...

ART6

An electoral system that permits a number of individual votes (first, second, preferences etc) is bound to lead to inequalities of the type to which the OP refers. It was that which got the Greens into power and kept the PDs there long past their sell by date. It is that which keeps FF in power when the majority of the population, it appears, want them out and preferably sunk in the Atlantic with concrete wellies. It leads to deals with (very) minority parties in coalitions who represent vested interests that are not necessarily in the interests of the majority. It leads to carbon taxes in a recession, public money spent on counting bats and frogs and building road underpasses for badgers while failing to provide safe roadside footpaths for children walking to school (and then culling said badgers to limit bovine TB -- cheaper to not build the underpasses and let 'em get run over).

In the same political system there is also the matter of political donations that lead to big finance and big industry funding FF and FG, and the unions funding Labour. He who pays the penny calls the tune. At the moment we have a government that won an election using funds provided by big finance and big industry (via the Galway tent perhaps?). Can we really believe that a bank, for example, might make a large donation to FF without having any interest in whether or not they get elected or what they do afterwards?

Given those considerations it would be niaive to expect anything resembling equality. FF/Greens represent the bankers, FG don't know who they represent, and Labour represent the unions. That would seem to leave getting on for 3 million people who are not represented by anyone.

And before anyone asks, no I don't have masses of figures and statistics to support what I say. I have just been around long enough to understand how Irish politics operates.

Sleepy

Can there be such a thing as a fair AND equal society?

If everyone is rewarded equaly, there's no incentive anyone to perform to their best.

We can strive for equality of opportunity i.e. everyone has the same entitlement to education, health care, security and opportunity to apply for a job and to be hired / promoted based on ability etc. That's fair. However, since we're not all equal, there will always be an imbalance in rewards received for working to the best of one's ability e.g. a Ronaldo will always be paid more than a Kevin Kilbane.

Dilynnio

I think in order to have a good quality of life in this country, you need to have a nice stash of money for a rainy day!

You either need to be very well off or be getting social welfare benefits in order to survive.

If you fall into the middle class/upper working class you are screwed.....as there is no breaks/help/benefits for you really you only survive to make ends meet and the odd bit of fun on a rainy day.

So no it is not really fair or equal!

shampon

One day I want to know what it is like to live in a real country.

dan_d

As I said in a previous thread - I'd like to live in a real country for a while. I was referring to Canada at the time, for the simple reason that the quality of life is good, cities are developed with the needs of the people in mind, with outdoor sports areas, interconnected,, thought-out public transport. Medical insurance is paid for through a tax to the Gov, that means your doctor visit costs you about 20 dollars, and your prescriptions 10-20 dollars. Laws are made in the interest of the citizens of the country, not the ruling parties.

I couldn't care less what I might earn elsewhere - I just want to live in a real country for a while, instead of this backwater of a country.

Liam Byrne

Sleepy wrote: »

Can there be such a thing as a fair AND equal society?

If everyone is rewarded equaly, there's no incentive anyone to perform to their best.

We can strive for equality of opportunity i.e. everyone has the same entitlement to education, health care, security and opportunity to apply for a job and to be hired / promoted based on ability etc. That's fair. However, since we're not all equal, there will always be an imbalance in rewards received for working to the best of one's ability e.g. a Ronaldo will always be paid more than a Kevin Kilbane.

Fair point, however in Ireland Kilbane is paid more because his auntie once shagged an FF minister behind the Galway Tent.

* Disclaimer : names have been used only to tie-in with the previous example, and suitable apologies in advance to Ms Kilbane for even fictionally / analogically suggesting that she has such poor taste...there is no intention to infer that such an encounter ever occurred

RichardAnd

Sleepy wrote: »

Can there be such a thing as a fair AND equal society?

If everyone is rewarded equaly, there's no incentive anyone to perform to their best.

We can strive for equality of opportunity i.e. everyone has the same entitlement to education, health care, security and opportunity to apply for a job and to be hired / promoted based on ability etc. That's fair. However, since we're not all equal, there will always be an imbalance in rewards received for working to the best of one's ability e.g. a Ronaldo will always be paid more than a Kevin Kilbane.

Yes but in the case of those two, Ronaldo is a far better player than Kilbane. So to an extent, that situation is fair.

But talent and ability doesn't always mean success for an individual. Rubbish like Twilight and Harry Potter makes millions whilst brilliant works of fiction might never make it through a publisher. Is is fair that second rate talent makes a fortune? No, but it happens.

jimmycrackcorm

The middle class will get more taxed such as water and property taxes while those on social welfare get now benefits and exemptions so that working will become something that you do to stave boredom. In that sense, yes indeed, the country is becoming fairer albeit unfairly so.

daithicarr

ART6 wrote: »

An electoral system that permits a number of individual votes (first, second, preferences etc) is bound to lead to inequalities of the type to which the OP refers. It was that which got the Greens into power and kept the PDs there long past their sell by date. It is that which keeps FF in power when the majority of the population, it appears, want them out and preferably sunk in the Atlantic with concrete wellies. It leads to deals with (very) minority parties in coalitions who represent vested interests that are not necessarily in the interests of the majority. It leads to carbon taxes in a recession, public money spent on counting bats and frogs and building road underpasses for badgers while failing to provide safe roadside footpaths for children walking to school (and then culling said badgers to limit bovine TB -- cheaper to not build the underpasses and let 'em get run over).

a first past the post system isint any fairer, in fact id say its more unfair, a minority of the population can win a majority of the seats most of the time and some people will disengage from the politicla system when partys they support wont ever get a seat, plus it makes it near impossible for a new party to enter the system

Cookie_Monster

daithicarr wrote: »

a first past the post system isint any fairer, in fact id say its more unfair, a minority of the population can win a majority of the seats most of the time and some people will disengage from the politicla system when partys they support wont ever get a seat, plus it makes it near impossible for a new party to enter the system

its much fairer. one vote per person. Now you can have effectively 12 votes in some constituencies and only 4 in others depending on running numbers, its such a stupid system IMO.

daithicarr

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its much fairer. one vote per person. Now you can have effectively 12 votes in some constituencies and only 4 in others depending on running numbers, its such a stupid system IMO.

i would completely disagree, proportional representation is more representative of the population, with one vote the party with the biggest amount of votes can from the goverement, so if say across the country ff got 35%, FG got 30% labour got 20% other got 15% between them it would mean FF got in to power with a massive majority, despite only having support of 35% of the population, it would squeeze out smaller partys, make it hard for any one to challange the established parys and make people disconect even more as they would feel theyr views cant be represented and they have no hope of getting anyone in to power.

professore

What are you going to do about it ?? You make your own "fair".

If the architects of the French Revolution or the 1916 patriots had sat around bellyaching then nothing would have happened. Piss or get off the pot. The world doesn't owe you a living.

Life isn't fair. Get used to it.

Have a go at doing something to improve your local community and you will quickly see what's really wrong with Ireland. You will meet a wall of resistence to any change.

Cookie_Monster

daithicarr wrote: »

i would completely disagree, proportional representation is more representative of the population, with one vote the party with the biggest amount of votes can from the goverement, so if say across the country ff got 35%, FG got 30% labour got 20% other got 15% between them it would mean FF got in to power with a massive majority, despite only having support of 35% of the population, it would squeeze out smaller partys, make it hard for any one to challange the established parys and make people disconect even more as they would feel theyr views cant be represented and they have no hope of getting anyone in to power.

what, just like it is currently?

Sleepy

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yes but in the case of those two, Ronaldo is a far better player than Kilbane. So to an extent, that situation is fair.

But talent and ability doesn't always mean success for an individual. Rubbish like Twilight and Harry Potter makes millions whilst brilliant works of fiction might never make it through a publisher. Is is fair that second rate talent makes a fortune? No, but it happens.

Art is entirely subjective so perhaps a bad area to look at, if more people want to read JK Rowling's books than, for the sake of argument Douglas Coupland's why shouldn't she make more money than him? She's doing the job of writing books that sell better than he is.

You could equally argue that Cowon make far better mp3 players than Apple but because Apple do a far better job of marketing their products they make more money.

Once you give everyone the same access to education, health etc. their success after that will come down to their talent, work ethic, personal choice, market preferences, talent and blind luck. Since you can't legislate for any of those factors, they have to be discounted when adjudicating if the society is 'fair' imho.

daithicarr

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what, just like it is currently?

no not at all, if you had say 150 constituancys, and the election results were as above you would get 150 FF members of parliment for 35% of vote, the way we have now gives a closer reflection of the electorates wishs, it could be reformed to make it more representative with things like a list system. first past the post is even less representative not more and there for less fair to the wishs of the people if it excludes a lot if not most of their wishs

Cookie_Monster

daithicarr wrote: »

no not at all, if you had say 150 constituancys, and the election results were as above you would get 150 FF members of parliment for 35% of vote, the way we have now gives a closer reflection of the electorates wishs, it could be reformed to make it more representative with things like a list system. first past the post is even less representative not more and there for less fair to the wishs of the people if it excludes a lot if not most of their wishs

I just don't see it as fair that depending on where you live and how you vote your vote can be worth 1, or 2 or 10.

A single non transferable vote with still 3-4 seats per area is the fairest way IMO, well actually democracy isin't exactly a good form of gov but its what we are stuck with due to limits of technology and interest.

daithicarr

id rather see larger constituancys of 10 or more TD's, which would allow greater representation, a party with 10% support could get in canidates, and hopefully a larger area might remove some of the localism in irish politics along with a national list system. so say 50 canidates in 5-6 regions and 50 taken from a national list system . or something along these lines

PattheMetaller

By no means do we live in anything like a fair and equal country.

Public Servant numbers are reducing (most certainly where i work) through non-renewal of temporary contracts and retirements combined with the recruitment embargo.

While there are plenty of middle to senior management types triping over each other and carrying files under their arms to look good, fornt line services are suffering. I took my father to his Alzheimer's Consultant this morning and his hands are tied in what he can offer due to cuts. Be it care in the community or day care. He stated that if we were in the UK it wouldn't be an issue.

It turns my stomach when the banks come in looking for more billions from the tax payer and the Government finds it but can not fund a proper health care system which is a basic human right. Meanwhile, with our money, the banks are paying bonus's and gym fees right, left, and centre.

Welease

PattheMetaller wrote: »

By no means do we live in anything like a fair and equal country.

Public Servant numbers are reducing (most certainly where i work) through non-renewal of temporary contracts and retirements combined with the recruitment embargo.

While there are plenty of middle to senior management types triping over each other and carrying files under their arms to look good, fornt line services are suffering. I took my father to his Alzheimer's Consultant this morning and his hands are tied in what he can offer due to cuts. Be it care in the community or day care. He stated that if we were in the UK it wouldn't be an issue.

It turns my stomach when the banks come in looking for more billions from the tax payer and the Government finds it but can not fund a proper health care system which is a basic human right. Meanwhile, with our money, the banks are paying bonus's and gym fees right, left, and centre.

Did you think the implementation of the CP agreement would result in anything else? If the unions want to continue to protect the swathes of unnecessary middle managements and inefficient practices, then front line services get cut.

The question is.. (assuming you are in a union), would you (and your colleagues) be taking this back to your unions and boss's and demanding change..The HSE (and other departments) are not necessarily underfunded, they just choose to spend their (large) allocation is rather unproductive ways, large amounts of unnecessary management being one (union members voted to keep this in place until 2014).


Regarding the OP's question.. You need to define fair.. Fair does not have the same meaning to different people when their situation is taken into consideration..

Is it fair that someone who works long hours for minimum wage gets only a little more than someone who doesn't work and can churns out kids?
It it fair that someone who has been hit by the recession has to take massive cut in pay if they find themselves unemployed through no fault of thier own, and could lose their house etc?
Is it fair that someone who is employed and working to keep themselves employed but struggles to pay their bills has to continue to pay more and more tax to fund those who don't/can't work, so they don't see a reduction in their quality of life..

Depending on which situation you are in, you opinion on "fair" will differ, and there are plenty of people in each of the situations above.

Joe1919

'Fair' and 'equal' are different words. Been fair does not necessarly mean been equal. Things like 'merit', 'ability' and 'needs' have to be taken into account, but the argument is by how much.

WalterMitty

What is fair and equal about a public service getting 30+% more than similarly equivalently qualified private sector worker while also having job security and a pension that is worth 30-50% on top of wages in its value for which they only pay a small fraction.

who says any society should be fair and equal? these are subjective qualities supposedly desired by many but when we look at voting of Irish people they dont want the much more egalitarian policies of the left.

I think most people want a safety net for those who are vulnerable or old or sick but also want those who are fit and healthy to be rewared according to their abilities and the effort they exert.

Society has actually benefitted from peoples greed as it pushes the greedy but capable people to do things better or more efficiently in hope of profiting. If everyone got same pay there would be much less effort exerted by many of the population to make advances in technology(medical,IT,engineering), ways of organsing business and society etc. Most humans act in their own and close friends/familes self interest which is understandable given its evolutionary advantage and capitalism combined with these allows for accelerated devlopment of civilissation but of course it cant be allowed to run out of control.

PattheMetaller

blacksmith105 wrote: »

4. Our state services are top heavy and are one of the most expsensive not just in europe but the world, how many in the public sector have been made redundent as per the McCarthy report ..... NIL ..

I agree with the OP's sentiments about top heaviness, plus in my experience there are many in the state services at all levels who do as little as possible. Those of us (myself included) who carry out our duties fully (as we are expected to) are tarnished with the same brush.

A wholesale cull of public servants is the preferred option of many. But what happens when there aren't enough paramedics to respond to your 999 call? What happens if there are not enough Council workers to fix your burst water main?

Welease wrote: »

It it fair that someone who has been hit by the recession has to take massive cut in pay if they find themselves unemployed through no fault of thier own, and could lose their house

Likewise, is it fair that this should happen to Public Servants just because it happened to his or her private sector neighbour?

WalterMitty wrote: »

I think most people want a safety net for those who are vulnerable or old or sick but also want those who are fit and healthy to be rewared according to their abilities and the effort they exert.

I agree with your comments. However, many feel that fit, healthy public servants should not be rewarded for their abilities and effort. Personally, I sacrificed a lot to climb my grade structure, including long hours of further education and many interviews. What sticks in my craw is the fact that a sizeable portion of the population expect me, and others in the public service like me, to apologise for it and be made redundant to satisfy their blood lust.

oppenheimer1

Has humanity ever produced a society that was fair. Why should Ireland be held to unattainable standard?

Welease

PattheMetaller wrote: »

I agree with the OP's sentiments about top heaviness, plus in my experience there are many in the state services at all levels who do as little as possible. Those of us (myself included) who carry out our duties fully (as we are expected to) are tarnished with the same brush.

A wholesale cull of public servants is the preferred option of many. But what happens when there aren't enough paramedics to respond to your 999 call? What happens if there are not enough Council workers to fix your burst water main?



Likewise, is it fair that this should happen to Public Servants just because it happened to his or her private sector neighbour?



I agree with your comments. However, many feel that fit, healthy public servants should not be rewarded for their abilities and effort. Personally, I sacrificed a lot to climb my grade structure, including long hours of further education and many interviews. What sticks in my craw is the fact that a sizeable portion of the population expect me, and others in the public service like me, to apologise for it and be made redundant to satisfy their blood lust.

You can't have your cake and eat it..

The top heavy status quo & waste has been maintained because your unions enforced it under threat of prolonged industrial action when this country was on its knees if they didnt get their way..

The government didnt ask for it..
The populace of this country didnt ask for it

Your unions (and by extension you) asked for it, and forced the government to agree.. Next time you complain about the lack of front line services, it may be worth looking in the mirror too see one of the many people who forced this to happen.. (harsh as this sounds)

Mister men

No country is fair and equal. Power and money corrupt all.

Mister men

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Has humanity ever produced a society that was fair. Why should Ireland be held to unattainable standard?

True but that does'nt mean we can't strive to be better.

theg81der

Lifes not fair! We could live in a worse country, at least we have some degree of freedom (no hanging for being gay or 9 year olds married of and mistreated) and no one is starving or homeless if they just fill in a few forms, put things in proportion will you.

We have the politicians we deserve (well not me since I didn`t vote for this shower could see through them a mile off) but just look at how the common man has behaved in the last few years, if they`d been in the politicaians shoes they might have done worse. As far as I see everyone is corrupt and jealous they didn`t get some of the dosh that the bankers an politicians got off with.

PattheMetaller

Welease wrote: »

You can't have your cake and eat it..

The top heavy status quo & waste has been maintained because your unions enforced it under threat of prolonged industrial action when this country was on its knees if they didnt get their way..

The government didnt ask for it..
The populace of this country didnt ask for it

Your unions (and by extension you) asked for it, and forced the government to agree.. Next time you complain about the lack of front line services, it may be worth looking in the mirror too see one of the many people who forced this to happen.. (harsh as this sounds)

How pray tell am I having my cake and eating it? So by your reckoning I am responsible for the mess this country is in because I got off my arse and made a decent career for myself, which just so happened to be in the public sector? Would you have so much distain for me if i was Private Sector?

And because i did, I am responsible for my father and many others not getting the front line medical services they need after a lifetime of paying their dues?? There would be even less front line services if a cull of those still in employment was to be undertaken. Not to mention the knock on effect to the wider community.

Perhaps you should re-direct your obvious hate for public servants at those in central government, banking, property development, and career welfare claimants who miraculously still availed of dole payments when the country was in full bloom (harsh as this sounds).

I make no apologies to you or anyone for having worked hard and still being in a job.

And i will continue to complain about lack of front line services when they effect my family and community.

Welease

PattheMetaller wrote: »

How pray tell am I having my cake and eating it? So by your reckoning I am responsible for the mess this country is in because I got off my arse and made a decent career for myself, which just so happened to be in the public sector? Would you have so much distain for me if i was Private Sector?

And because i did, I am responsible for my father and many others not getting the front line medical services they need after a lifetime of paying their dues?? There would be even less front line services if a cull of those still in employment was to be undertaken. Not to mention the knock on effect to the wider community.

Perhaps you should re-direct your obvious hate for public servants at those in central government, banking, property development, and career welfare claimants who miraculously still availed of dole payments when the country was in full bloom (harsh as this sounds).

I make no apologies to you or anyone for having worked hard and still being in a job.

And i will continue to complain about lack of front line services when they effect my family and community.

Attached health spend for OECD countries 2008... Bottom part of bar (dark) is the public spend.. Then try to explain to me why we receive piss poor service, have front line staff cuts and how this is the fault or bankers or developers? Lets put the blame squarely where it should lie, the unions and their members for continuing to squander the scant resources of this country.



You are missing or avoiding the point.. The problem is not due to lack of funding!

Your unions had the chance to allow the restructuring of services over the next couple of years which would make the best use of the funding given (our funding of the HSE for example is one of the highest per capita in OECD reports).

You stopped that happening by forcing the CP agreement. No one else can or should be blamed for that.. Adequate funding is provided!!!

It completely illogical to force the continuance of swathes of middle management one day, then complain about lack of front line services the next.

(my parents were both public sector/semi state, so I don't have a blind hatred of the PS, but I will point out the illogicality (to me) of your complaints.)

PattheMetaller

Firstly: I have not stated in any post if I am a union member. Secondly: If i was a union member you are jumping to the conclusion that I voted for the CP agreement in any ballot. Thirdly: I am by no means middle or senior managment.

I fully agree that re-organisation is needed (not only in the HSE), including the weeding out of dossers. I cannot comment about HSE as I am not HSE. I can however become voiciferous if the care and resources needed for the populance's needs are not available and it effects my family.

The polititians, bankers and developers are responsible for the mess we are in. If it wasn't for them there would be plenty of funding available to maintain services combined with re-structuring

Welease

PattheMetaller wrote: »

The polititians, bankers and developers are responsible for the mess we are in. If it wasn't for them there would be plenty of funding available to maintain services combined with re-structuring

/sigh... there is plenty of funding available and it's provided.. did you bother to read the graph?

Or is it just easier to ignore the facs and put the blame elsewhere continually....

PattheMetaller

And did you bother to read my last post where I stated i am not HSE and agreed that reform is needed.

It seems you are pretty good at picking only one sentence out to re-inforce your arguement.

Welease

PattheMetaller wrote: »

And did you bother to read my last post where I stated i am not HSE and agreed that reform is needed.

It seems you are pretty good at picking only one sentence out to re-inforce your arguement.

Doesn't the CP agreement implement the same deal across all PS? Wasnt it voted though on a majority basis under the umbrella of all the PS unions (i.e all PS staff)? (as in, the HSE unions could not pass these agreement without the backing of the majority of all the other unions and PS staff)

PattheMetaller

PattheMetaller wrote: »

Firstly: I have not stated in any post if I am a union member. Secondly: If i was a union member you are jumping to the conclusion that I voted for the CP agreement in any ballot.

Just a couple of points there that you convieniently overlooked among others.

So to sum up, rather than continually go around in circles, you feel that any public or civil servant should not have the gall to complain about lack of front line services?

Welease

PattheMetaller wrote: »

Just a couple of points there that you convieniently overlooked among others.

So to sum up, rather than continually go around in circles, you feel that any public or civil servant should not have the gall to complain about lack of front line services?

They have the right to complain, but they also have the right to have it pointed out just what the CP agreement cost this country..

(which is no more right or wrong than your refusal too accept that the implementation of the CP agreement across all PS services led to the situation whereby we cant get rid of the middle management you complain about, and the PS staff are directly responsible for it's implementation)..

The PS are the primary people in this country who can remedy the situation.. but go ahead keep blaming bankers and property developers..

lmimmfn

fair, here? lmfao, pull the other one, its a great country if youre willing to splash out on brown envelopes though( definately as good if not better than india or similar )

PattheMetaller

Welease wrote: »

They have the right to complain, but they also have the right to have it pointed out just what the CP agreement cost this country....... but go ahead keep blaming bankers and property developers..

So the taxpayer hadn't to pump billions into various banks directly due to their unrecoverable loans from property developers? The CP agreement is the only ingredient in the stew we are in?

Welease

PattheMetaller wrote: »

So the taxpayer hadn't to pump billions into various banks directly due to their unrecoverable loans from property developers? The CP agreement is the only ingredient in the stew we are in?

If the issues that you were complaining about (the lack front line staff) were related to inadequate funding then you would have a point..

But the problems are not related to inadequate funding, they are related to an agreement the means thousands of unnecessaty staff in the HSE are kept in place (iirc McCarthy report suggest removing 6,ooo unnecessary HSE staff), and they cannot be replaced with much needed front line staff.

Bailout of banks are not the issue here, and is the usual attempt at deflection.