The NCHD Training Grant

Amnesiac_ie

Question:

Does anybody have the official line on where we stand as regards the training grant as of July 2010? Medical Manpower in my hosptial claim to "not know" what the situation is and whether I should submit a claim form or not. My college has not billed me for a "Training Fee" this year however; is it foolishly optimistic of me to assume my employer/the HSE will be paying this for the remainder of my training?

SleepDoc

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

Question:

Does anybody have the official line on where we stand as regards the training grant as of July 2010? Medical Manpower in my hosptial claim to "not know" what the situation is and whether I should submit a claim form or not. My college has not billed me for a "Training Fee" this year however; is it foolishly optimistic of me to assume my employer/the HSE will be paying this for the remainder of my training?

The official position in the hospital I work in is that if your course etc is not on the HSE list it won't be paid for. And then only to the tune of 450 euro.

It's a paycut. A big whopping pay cut. On top of the other crap.

How far are the HSE trying to push their luck?

locum-motion

Don't you just love Boards.ie?

"Amnesiac" asks a question, "SleepDoc" answers it!

resus

HSE management will push it until all of us are abroad, then shut down services using HIQA under the guise of "insufficient clinical staffing cover," saving €€€€€ and then boasting how good and efficient they are and how they all deserve a pay rise.

Amnesiac_ie

The IMO have been very quiet on this issue... anyone have an official IMO line?

Jane5

I would imagine the "official IMO line" is just them asking how high the HSE wants doctors to jump so they can "negotiate" a jumping distance on our behalf.
I am totally convinced by now that the IMO is in the pay of the HSE and so is deliberately negotiating badly for the HSE's benefit and our detriment. This is just my opinion, with no factual evidence to back it up. However, it surely seems that way.

Hey, by the way!
Check this out: http://www.imt.ie/news/2010/08/cross-site-working-proposed-for-nchds.html

Pastafarian

Jane5 why would the HSE pay the IMO when the IMO is a fundamentall compromised organisation tobeing with. The IMO represents NCHD's, consultants, GP's and public health doctors. Now forget the public health doctors for a minute - how can one organisation represent both NCHD's and consultants ? It can't - you see the results yourself. These two groups whilst having some common interests also have mutually exclusive interests. Particularly when it comes to working hours, conditions and training - the very stuff the IMO is supposedly negotiating

Nchd2010

I don't mean to be argumentative or anything, but how exactly do NCHDs and consultants have "mutually exclusive" interests?

Pastafarian

Nchd2010 wrote: »

I don't mean to be argumentative or anything, but how exactly do NCHDs and consultants have "mutually exclusive" interests?

Wow your case of Stockholm syndrome is even more severe than I realised. Alternatively again I am forced to wonder if you are an NCHD because if you were this is such a no brainer.

1. Working hours. NCHD's are entitled to work in law abiding EWTD compliant jobs. Most want that. Some Stockholm cases like yourself (assuming you aren't an HSE propaganda tool) are with the consulants making life harder for the rest of us by giving tacit approval to the status quo. Most consultants are against EWTD and want their staff working entire weekends in the name of 'continuity of care'. Thus remaining in denial that handover is an inevitability and instead of learning to do handover better, sticking their heads in the sand.

2. Training. Due to the lack of proper organised training, NCHD's are dependent on the mood of consultants to provide teaching. This is directly contravened against the time demands on consultants and frankly the financial incentives of getting themselves over to the private clinic ASAP. Yet consultants decide the training structure and syllabus.

Jane5

He's not an NCHD, don't worry. Ask him a question only an NCHD would know

Nchd2010

Go on. This could be fun.

Pastafarian

Nchd2010 I've no interest in playing games with you. I believe you either are or were an NCHD.

What I am interested in is whether you agree or disagree that consultants and nchd's have sometimes directly opposing interests or not ?

Nchd2010

I really don't believe that consultants working in teaching hospitals are solely motivated by money and are only looking to the private hospital as quick as possible. If that was the case, they could easily double or treble their money working solely in private practice. If you ask questions and are proactive, you'll find that even those with private interests are more than happy to teach.

At the moment, though I'm in training for a non-surgical specialty, I'm working in a job where many procedures are performed. There is no benefit to me learning these kind of things long term. But my consultants are more than happy to take things a little slower, and teach me.

Pastafarian

Again Nchd2010 you are avoiding the question. Those are some nice anecdotes you've provided, but noone asked you for tips on getting training - we all know how the current system works. I do feel compelled to provide my own counter anecdote that I personally know of many consultatns <SNIP>(nevermind teach anyone) because they are busy doing other things.

I'll ask again:

Do you agree or disagree that consutlants and nchd's sometimes have directly opposing interests when it come sot working hours and training ?

A second question more specific to the current debate - do you believe one organisation, the IMO, can adequately represent both groups at the same time on a group level despite those opposing interests ?

Nchd2010

Neither of your questions really can be answered in one word. If you want one word answers, then no and yes.

However, there may be an odd time when the odd consultant might have to attend a clinic or whatever and can't sit down to teach/train. I don't think you can really generalise this. Also, seeing as you're so principled and righteous, have you put your concerns about consultants not fulfilling their contractual obligations in writing to either the HSE, HIQA, Comhairle na n-Ospidéal, or the relevant hospital authorities? If not, why not?

Secondly, I think you may find that the IMO plays a relatively small role in representing consultants. The IHCA is a far more popular union for consultants these days. Where you aware of this?

I'd appreciate similar courtesy from yourself in directly answering these questions Pastafarian. Thanks

sam34

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Neither of your questions really can be answered in one word. If you want one word answers, then no and yes.

when/where did pastafarian ask for one-word answers?

Nchd2010

He/She didn't. However I had fairly extensively answered the first question and he/she doesn't seem to have bothered reading a lot of my posts on another thread. Just trying to keep things simple. Probably for the best with such people.:cool:

sam34

Nchd2010 wrote: »

He/She didn't. However I had fairly extensively answered the first question and he/she doesn't seem to have bothered reading a lot of my posts on another thread. Just trying to keep things simple. Probably for the best with such people.:cool:

in fairness, you cant blame someone for not reading your posts on a different thread

Nchd2010

sam34 wrote: »

in fairness, you cant blame someone for not reading your posts on a different thread

Merciful hour. I meant that on another thread, he asked me questions more than once that I had answered extensively. Have a gander...the Hse breaking contractual agreement AGAIN thread. It's quite a read tbf.:)

sam34

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Merciful hour. I meant that on another thread, he asked me questions more than once that I had answered extensively. Have a gander...the Hse breaking contractual agreement AGAIN thread. It's quite a read tbf.:)

apologies, i took you up wrong and thought you were complaining that he wasnt addressing posts you made on that thread during the discussion here.

Pastafarian

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Neither of your questions really can be answered in one word. If you want one word answers, then no and yes.

However, there may be an odd time when the odd consultant might have to attend a clinic or whatever and can't sit down to teach/train. I don't think you can really generalise this. Also, seeing as you're so principled and righteous, have you put your concerns about consultants not fulfilling their contractual obligations in writing to either the HSE, HIQA, Comhairle na n-Ospidéal, or the relevant hospital authorities? If not, why not?

I am talking about consultants <SNIP>.
I have discussed some concerns regarding training and workign horus with a senior consultant (in fact two now that I think of it) and it became apparent from that conversation that they do not share those concerns, or at least if they do are not prepared to do anything about it. I see little point in writing letters etc since my experience in previous dealings with HSE/hospital authorities is that they will ignore them.

Secondly, I think you may find that the IMO plays a relatively small role in representing consultants. The IHCA is a far more popular union for consultants these days. Where you aware of this?

I am WELL aware of this. Of course the existence and popularity if the IHCA is BECAUSE one organisation can't represent both groups adequately and the consultants realised this and set up their own group. The IMO is hamstrung in terms of representing adequately the rights of NCHD's (or consultants for that matter).

I'd appreciate similar courtesy from yourself in directly answering these questions Pastafarian. Thanks

Done. Note I kept it free of rambling off topic anecdotes and unasked for patronising self-glorifying advice.

sam34 wrote: »

when/where did pastafarian ask for one-word answers?

I didn't. But since apparently reading comprehension is a bug-bear of nchd2010 I would like to point out that 'no' and 'yes' are not grammatically correct or even logical responses to the question 'do you agree or disagree....'

Nchd2010 wrote: »

He/She didn't. However I had fairly extensively answered the first question and he/she doesn't seem to have bothered reading a lot of my posts on another thread. Just trying to keep things simple. Probably for the best with such people.:cool:

I read all your answers. I didn't respond to each individual story and poitn you made because I felt it was distracting from the central issues of the thread and quite frankly I didn't want to turn it into a sniping and bitching match - which you seem to wish to do. If you want me to tear apart your stories and assumptions (of which there are many) on the other thread I will. (but later - I have to go somewhere now). Incidentally - can you leave off the personal insults please such as keepign things simple with 'such people' ? Thanks.

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Merciful hour. I meant that on another thread, he asked me questions more than once that I had answered extensively. Have a gander...the Hse breaking contractual agreement AGAIN thread. It's quite a read tbf.:)

You may have thought you answered my questinos but your answers were off the point.


Nchd2010 I have one further question for you: are you a consultant or do you locum as a consultant ?

Jane5

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Neither of your questions really can be answered in one word. If you want one word answers, then no and yes.

However, there may be an odd time when the odd consultant might have to attend a clinic or whatever and can't sit down to teach/train. I don't think you can really generalise this. Also, seeing as you're so principled and righteous, have you put your concerns about consultants not fulfilling their contractual obligations in writing to either the HSE, HIQA, Comhairle na n-Ospidéal, or the relevant hospital authorities? If not, why not?

Secondly, I think you may find that the IMO plays a relatively small role in representing consultants. The IHCA is a far more popular union for consultants these days. Where you aware of this?

I'd appreciate similar courtesy from yourself in directly answering these questions Pastafarian. Thanks

I'm taking this extraordinary statement as proof that you aren't an Irish NCHD. Any NCHD who has been in the system for more than a week knows damn well what would happen to them if they wrote to the HSE, HIQA or the relevant hospital authorities about their consultants not fulfilling their contractual obligations.

Nchd2010

Jane5, what exactly would happen, say if you made an anonymous complaint?

Pastafarian, I look forward to you tearing apart my assumptions and stories. Also you're right. I was kind of skim reading your posts because they're a little hysterical. Read the first question as "do you agree" soz.

Pastafarian

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Jane5, what exactly would happen, say if you made an anonymous complaint?

Pastafarian, I look forward to you tearing apart my assumptions and stories. Also you're right. I was kind of skim reading your posts because they're a little hysterical. Read the first question as "do you agree" soz.

Fair enough I'll take it as you don't agree. If you think mine are hysterical well - I find yours very patronising and completely lacking in insight that other people don't see things the way you do - trust me more nchd's agree with me than they do with you. Understand my side-swiping here is in direct response to yours. I don't wish to fight like that but if you do it I will respond in kind. I'll get back to the other thread tonight. I won't snipe and bitch if you won't - deal ?

So my question: are you a consulant then or locum consutlant ?

Jane5

Well, "NCHD" 2010,

Two things.

You cannot make "anonymous complaints". If a complaint such as this is made, it is a serious allegation, not to be taken lightly. Who made it, why they made it, etc etc, would have to be known or the complaint could not progress any further. It's like writing a letter to the newspaper, name and address must be supplied, and can only be withheld at the paper's discretion, and revealed if the contents of the letter turn out to be libellous.

Also, I have no beef with any particular consultant. I get on fine with just about all of mine, and my working conditions and training expenses are a completely separate issue to me, unrelated to any consultant's behaviour.

Jane5

So how long have you been a consultant, "NCHD 2010"?

I know you're not gonna answer this, or the question on the other thread regarding private vs public and how to address the shortfall in training funds.

Nchd2010

I can tell you now, if you want to make a complaint to HIQA anonymously, it can be done. I've done so within the last month, regarding a consultant I worked with who I felt was dangerously deficient.

Do you guys honestly think I'm a consultant pretending to be an NCHD? Wow.

more nchd's agree with me than they do with you

Of course they do, because most Irish NCHDs followed a honeyed path from private school with grinds to University in Trinners or D4 and never understood that actually sometimes sacrifices need to be made for the greater good. I know several classmates who are always going on about how difficult it is to pay the mortgage. Well no ****...that's what happens if you buy a house in an overinflated market...the country doesn't have to bail you out. And we're really close to defaulting on sovereign debt. Like really really close, from what I'm hearing.

Nchd2010

Just to clarify in case there's any doubt. I'm definitely not a consultant. Or a locum consultant. Far from it.

Pastafarian

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Of course they do, because most Irish NCHDs followed a honeyed path from private school with grinds to University in Trinners or D4 and never understood that actually sometimes sacrifices need to be made for the greater good. I know several classmates who are always going on about how difficult it is to pay the mortgage. Well no ****...that's what happens if you buy a house in an overinflated market...the country doesn't have to bail you out. And we're really close to defaulting on sovereign debt. Like really really close, from what I'm hearing.

Again the arrogance of your presumptions is astounding. See my latest post on the other thread. NCHD's agree with me out of a sense of duty to their patients - not out of some sense of entitlement.
The ironic thing is - you are actually part of the problem here. By defending and supporting the status quo you are making things worse for patients. Quite frankly I think you should be ashamed of your own arrogance and selfrighteousness.

RobFowl

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Of course they do, because most Irish NCHDs followed a honeyed path from private school with grinds to University in Trinners or D4 and never understood that actually sometimes sacrifices need to be made for the greater good.

Personally I worked in a fast food restaurants to get through college and certainly did not go to a private school or get grinds.

Some of my class are now consultants and very few (if any TBH) conform to your clichéd view. All of us worked hard and long hours far too often without any pay at all. Sleep deprivation and eating vending machine food while stuck in hospitals over 48-72 hour stints was more my experience rather than the dossing in the Res you suggest NCHD's get overtime for.

I suspect any medical experience you have was garnered from the "Doctor in the house" films.

Things have moved on from the 1950's so please take your prejudges and shove them....

PS Jane5 and Pastafarin especially may I suggest the following; go to NCHD2010's profile and follow these instructions;)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/faq.php?faq=bie_faq_whatelse#faq_bie_faq_whatelse_ignore

Nchd2010

In 2001, UCD had 937 students from semi and unskilled backgrounds.

I'd love to know why the middle classes pay for education in prestige schools. Sure none of the students ever go on to do medicine or anything. As for the Institute...

Good thinking though. Block out anyone who disagrees with you on the basis of fact. It'll be much easier to live in your world of endless victimhood.

Well done, really mature.

I wonder why hospitals bother with a doctors res? Sure there's noone that ever goes there. Ever. :rolleyes: