Muntjac with .22/250

Half-cocked

Had some unconfirmed Muntjac sightings down near our patch and plan to do a recce along the waterways looking for tracks etc. The terrain is perfect for Muntjac so I'm hopeful of bagging one. Just wondering if the new NPWS rule on 60 grain minimum bullet weight for deer (in .22/250) applies to Muntjac? I had a hard time getting hold of a supply of 60's, seems a waste to use them on such a small animal. 55grain is perfectly adequate for Muntjac. I bet the NPWS didn't take them into account when it made this ruling.

tfox

Personally if I had Muntjac on my ground I would leave them well be. Let the little beggars breed for a while

But maybe I'm just a greedy selfish hunter

sonofthegun

i was told that muntjac are classed as vermin ie non native and released illeagaly therfore you can use whatever you want to knock them even the shootgun.please correct if im wrong
stog

daithi55

sonofthegun wrote: »

i was told that muntjac are classed as vermin ie non native and released illeagaly therfore you can use whatever you want to knock them even the shootgun.please correct if im wrong
stog

there not classed as vermin if so they wouldnt be on the deer permits
also there is a season for them which happens to run all year
the only people allowed shoot them are people with deer permits with a deer calibre
would agree 100 percent that the deer calibres herea are to powerful for them a .223 would be perfect

sonofthegun

daithi55 wrote: »

there not classed as vermin if so they wouldnt be on the deer permits
also there is a season for them which happens to run all year
the only people allowed shoot them are people with deer permits with a deer calibre
would agree 100 percent that the deer calibres herea are to powerful for them a .223 would be perfect

didnt know they were on the deer permits is that a new thing i only heard a conversation about shooting muntjac at a gun club meeting last year.
has anyone ever seen one saw pictures and some in a zoo they are bit on the small side to be useing deer calibers on im only going by the size off them how much knocking could it take

daithi55

sonofthegun wrote: »

didnt know they were on the deer permits is that a new thing i only heard a conversation about shooting muntjac at a gun club meeting last year.
has anyone ever seen one saw pictures and some in a zoo they are bit on the small side to be useing deer calibers on im only going by the size off them how much knocking could it take

here they are on youtube very distinctive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5mGU4H2Txc

round tower huntsman

sonofthegun wrote: »

i was told that muntjac are classed as vermin ie non native and released illeagaly therfore you can use whatever you want to knock them even the shootgun.please correct if im wrong
stog

has it been confirmed 100% official like that muntjac are here?

Tackleberrywho

I think Munties have been on deer permits 3 seasons now.

As pointed out season is 365 days, with a deer appropriate calibre.

Several Muntie reported kills returned on renewals.

I don't personally know of any stalkers who have bagged them, if i get6 one; by god I would have to get a photo of it, with a newspaper as a reference in the background to prove it is Ireland!

daithi55

round tower huntsman wrote: »

has it been confirmed 100% official like that muntjac are here?

they have been reported shot on peoples deer returns in 2 or 3 places around the country is all

check this link
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055944618

jwshooter

Half-cocked wrote: »

Had some unconfirmed Muntjac sightings down near our patch and plan to do a recce along the waterways looking for tracks etc. The terrain is perfect for Muntjac so I'm hopeful of bagging one. Just wondering if the new NPWS rule on 60 grain minimum bullet weight for deer (in .22/250) applies to Muntjac? I had a hard time getting hold of a supply of 60's, seems a waste to use them on such a small animal. 55grain is perfectly adequate for Muntjac. I bet the NPWS didn't take them into account when it made this ruling.

right you going to shoot muntjac on your patch ..do you know how to tell a lactating female ?.

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

right you going to shoot muntjac on your patch ..do you know how to tell a lactating female ?.

If she has an elder as they say in the midlands?

jwshooter

if i was culling hinds in the morning ,i would take for granted that she might have a dependant a foot .

considering muntjac can breed all year round ,how would you know to shoot or not ? .

landkeeper

jw he's not asking how to tell if it's suckling or not he's asking if it's legal to shoot it with a 22-250 with 60grn bullets

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

if i was culling hinds in the morning ,i would take for granted that she might have a dependant a foot .

considering muntjac can breed all year round ,how would you know to shoot or not ? .

Well when suckling she will not be in peak condition as all her energy is going on milk creation, she will be thinner and have enlarged nipples(teets)

considering there breeding one would have to make a choice, Cull as invasive species, or hunt in control.

I would have to say, I'd be cruel to be kind, after watching a program on RTE 1 this eve in regards to grey Vs Red.

Munties are not supposed to be here, because some idiot(s) brought them in, we as hunters owe it to the sport to eliminate them before they become widespread

round tower huntsman

if they're vermin and a danger to native wildlife then seasons dont matter.
do we have seasons for mink?
who'd have the heart to kill a milky mink?

jwshooter

landkeeper wrote: »

jw he's not asking how to tell if it's suckling or not he's asking if it's legal to shoot it with a 22-250 with 60grn bullets

well there deer are they not . so yes as stated by npws a 60gr bullet is required .

as deer they should still be given the respect as hunters we show to any animal .

to orphan a fawn for the sake of a shot ,is not except able .in your going to hunt something your not familiar with you arm yourself with knowledge about the animal in question .

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

well there deer are they not . so yes as stated by npws a 60gr bullet is required .

as deer they should still be given the respect as hunters we show to any animal .

to orphan a fawn for the sake of a shot ,is not except able .in your going to hunt something your not familiar with you arm yourself with knowledge about the animal in question .

Shoot the fawn first, then the doe.
They are not supposed to be here.

The people who introduced them should have considered this, there is a very valid reason why the season is 365 to eliminate them.

jwshooter

round tower huntsman wrote: »

if they're vermin and a danger to native wildlife then seasons dont matter.
do we have seasons for mink?
who'd have the heart to kill a milky mink?

im just filling out my deer hunting returns for last season . on the application ,muntjac are on it .

so that does not make them vermin now does it . what danger to native wild life are u on about ?.

deerhunter1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Well when suckling she will not be in peak condition as all her energy is going on milk creation, she will be thinner and have enlarged nipples(teets)

considering there breeding one would have to make a choice, Cull as invasive species, or hunt in control.

I would have to say, I'd be cruel to be kind, after watching a program on RTE 1 this eve in regards to grey Vs Red.

Munties are not supposed to be here, because some idiot(s) brought them in, we as hunters owe it to the sport to eliminate them before they become widespread

Well said 100% agree, we are obliged as hunters/sportsmen to protect our habitat

jwshooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Shoot the fawn first, then the doe.
They are not supposed to be here.

The people who introduced them should have considered this, there is a very valid reason why the season is 365 to eliminate them.

the reason there is a 365 day season on them is there have no set breeding season .

what if the fawn is not a foot at the time ,how do you tell if you can shoot the female .

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

the reason there is a 365 day season on them is there have no set breeding season .

what if the fawn is not a foot at the time ,how do you tell if you can shoot the female .

With the Nightfoce on 32 mag, I can see better than a swaro

JW,
NPWS have put no restrictions on male/female/young/old munties

Therefore they just want to regulate who shoots them, and that they use .22-250 1700ft/lbs or greater

I did not make the rules JW.

I will endeavor to enforce them in regards to Munties.

The folk that released them should be sought and prosecuted for releasing an alien species into our eco system.

jwshooter

[QUOTE=Tackleberrywho;67366669

you some man if you can see all that .

there has only been one reported kill in the republic


not the same as there not a threat to any other animal .

some idiots ,brought in rabbits ,sika ,fallow,potato,coffee,sugar ,pepper,sitka spruce, etc .


we as hunters should not jump on band wagons out of ignorance.

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

some idiots ,brought in rabbits ,sika ,fallow,potato,coffee,sugar ,pepper,sitka spruce, etc .


we as hunters should not jump on band wagons out of ignorance.

You are trying to give me a history lesson?

I'm familiar with your synopsis, however i don't agree.

I never jump on band wagons, and Ignorance was introducing Sika,Fallow, Bunnies, Grey squirrels etc etc without being a breast of the consequences

jwshooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You are trying to give me a history lesson?

I'm familiar with your synopsis, however i don't agree.

I never jump on band wagons, and Ignorance was introducing Sika,Fallow, Bunnies, Grey squirrels etc etc without being a breast of the consequences

presumptions are the mother of all f@ck ups .

you presume muntjac have been let off into the wilds of ireland ,where is your proof of this ? well.

i have seen a pic of one ,a english keeper had . in the ( years ) that have passed not another pic have i seen .

and your going to wipe out the problem in the mid lands :pac::pac::pac:

arrowloopboy

Just a ****en pitty somebody wouldn't start introducing a few wild pigs,not enough meat on them muntys:D

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

presumptions are the mother of all f@ck ups .

you presume muntjac have been let off into the wilds of ireland ,where is your proof of this ? well.

i have seen a pic of one ,a english keeper had . in the ( years ) that have passed not another pic have i seen .

and your going to wipe out the problem in the mid lands :pac::pac::pac:

NO JW, we won't let it be a problem, and let folk know not to destroy our countryside.

All the reports are your side of the country, not mine :cool:
NPWS have had info attached with their permits for the last few years.

The must be making presumptions too

jwshooter

any way tac back to the culling of female muntjac ,that you had not the answer to .( before you wear google out looking for it ).

the only way to be sure a female muntjac has "not" a dependant is shoot only heavily pregnant does .

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

any way tac back to the culling of female muntjac ,that you had not the answer to .( before you wear google out looking for it ).

the only way to be sure a female muntjac has "not" a dependant is shoot only heavily pregnant does .

JW, I was pullin calves as long as you have been shooting them.
I know the look of a pregnant animal, from farming stock.

If a female is suckling she has bigger tits! with a milk sack.
I told you my personal experiences.

I could not be ars*d googling, + we only got Broadband in 2007, I've been around animals much longer than that, I've owned several bloodstock and livestock of my own. Bought ,my first rifle out of a good day at the mart!

No google has helped me scull cattle to date! Or hold mares while a stallion mounted her!

That stuff one learns from experience, just like judging when a heifer/filly is in calf/foal without a scanner.

Can be done, if you can read the signs

round tower huntsman

jwshooter wrote: »

im just filling out my deer hunting returns for last season . on the application ,muntjac are on it .

so that does not make them vermin now does it . what danger to native wild life are u on about ?.

tbh i dont know enough about deer hunting or muntjac to get in to a debate bout it. but didnt gormless himself issue a shoot on sight order in regards to munties afaik??

CJhaughey

round tower huntsman wrote: »

but didnt gormless himself issue a shoot on sight order in regards to munties afaik??

That man should not be listened to in any way shape or form.
The practice of taking advice from Green ministers is not a good one IMO.

round tower huntsman

your dead right there.

natdog

jwshooter wrote: »

any way tac back to the culling of female muntjac ,that you had not the answer to .( before you wear google out looking for it ).

the only way to be sure a female muntjac has "not" a dependant is shoot only heavily pregnant does .

I dont think it really matters male female fawn they should be all shot on sight they are an invasive species and to use previous introductions as an argument is rubbish. Invasive species ireland have them on there sight and they reckon they can destroy native shrubs.
Maybe some of the people that are supportive of there introduction think they might make some money out of them in the long run if you know what I mean jw.

round tower huntsman

that was my understanding of them. that they were a menance like the grey squirell and were to be killed on sight.

Half-cocked

Oooops...I didn't mean to start off a p1ssing contest when I started this thread:D

Can I tell a lactating female? Yes, if I'm close enough and the light is good. So in the field, not with any certainty. I'll stick to antlered animals to avoid that conundrum. As posted above, you can shoot visibly pregnant females if you don't want to orphan fawns, but I don't like to do that - I have done it in the UK and it just isn't right. Some one asked what harm Muntjac are doing. They cause serious damage to river and stream banks and spawning beds. We have numerous small waterays on our shoot and often see large salmon spawning there. Don't want Muntjac trampling all over the beds. All this is academic if it turns out there are no Muntjac in the area, as I said in my first post, we've only had unconfirmed sightings. If they are there, they breed like rabbits and will need to be controlled. I'm also interested to find out which type of Muntjac have been introduced here, I assume Reeves Muntjac, the same as in the UK. If so, only the males grow antlers.

jwshooter

Half-cocked wrote: »

Oooops...I didn't mean to start off a p1ssing contest when I started this thread:D

Can I tell a lactating female? Yes, if I'm close enough and the light is good. So in the field, not with any certainty. I'll stick to antlered animals to avoid that conundrum. As posted above, you can shoot visibly pregnant females if you don't want to orphan fawns, but I don't like to do that - I have done it in the UK and it just isn't right. Some one asked what harm Muntjac are doing. They cause serious damage to river and stream banks and spawning beds. We have numerous small waterays on our shoot and often see large salmon spawning there. Don't want Muntjac trampling all over the beds. All this is academic if it turns out there are no Muntjac in the area, as I said in my first post, we've only had unconfirmed sightings. If they are there, they breed like rabbits and will need to be controlled. I'm also interested to find out which type of Muntjac have been introduced here, I assume Reeves Muntjac, the same as in the UK. If so, only the males grow antlers.

im glad some one has seen my point . im not sure where you read the bit about tramping on salmon spawning beds .

it should be easy to know a lactation muntjac doe when you see one ,as the have utters on them like friesian cows " apparently "

Half-cocked

jwshooter wrote: »

im glad some one has seen my point . im not sure where you read the bit about tramping on salmon spawning beds .

it should be easy to know a lactation muntjac doe when you see one ,as the have utters on them like friesian cows " apparently "

But unfortunately they are usually seen belly deep in riverbank plants/marshland , so the udders arent visible.......

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

im glad some one has seen my point . im not sure where you read the bit about tramping on salmon spawning beds .

it should be easy to know a lactation muntjac doe when you see one ,as the have utters on them like friesian cows " apparently "

I said that, we call utters Elders in the midlands, like the elderberry

Elderberries hang down full of juice , like a Doe full of milk;)

Also, they will be skinny as their offspring suckling will be hard on them.
I'm glad someone has seen my point too!

I did not google it

Tackleberrywho

Half-cocked wrote: »

But unfortunately they are usually seen belly deep in riverbank plants/marshland , so the udders arent visible.......

Then threat them like Mink or Rats, Take no prosioners :D

It wasn't me!

Lads, we'd all strive not to shoot vixens with dependant young, or a fallow doe with a dependant fawn, so let's all maintain our ethical position with regard to muntjac as well. It's a little nasty to see people who suddenly lose their moral positions at this particular prospect.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Lads, we'd all strive not to shoot vixens with dependant young, or a fallow doe with a dependant fawn, so let's all maintain our ethical position with regard to muntjac as well. It's a little nasty to see people who suddenly lose their moral positions at this particular prospect.

If I were a sheep farmer, Vixens young or not would meet the grim reaper.
I "believe" we should stop a problem before it starts, prevention is better than cure.

I have very strong morals on people messing with the eco system.
Munty could damage the whole eco system irreversably.

Young are normally easier shot than adults in most species in any case, as "pardon the pun" they are not street wise.
Adults are far cuter hoors and will scarper.

So shoot the young first, then the males and females.
Then no problem "if a problem exists"

bunny shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

..........Munty could damage the whole eco system irreversably....

In what way/s

johngalway

I don't know much about munties, but I do know retention of morals can become quite an expensive exercise when said vixens drop date arrives a couple of weeks before my ewes drop date :eek:

Grizzly 45

Getting back to suitable calibres.For the size of them even a .22 magnum is plenty gun.People have been shooting them in India with those for years.

jwshooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Getting back to suitable calibres.For the size of them even a .22 magnum is plenty gun.People have been shooting them in India with those for years.

ya ,one problem we dont live in india .

Half-cocked

Well, I've had it clarified. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the Muntjac) the Wildlife Act covers all deer species - including unforeseen introductions, and the same rules and regs apply to Muntjac as our native species. So anyone hunting them is forced to be seriously over-gunned for the job. At least from an ethical standpoint, overkill is preferable to having them sprayed with birdshot and wounded with rimfire ammo.

jwshooter

personally i think that any one that will orphan a calf/fawn in the name of deer management or flora protection ,should have there deer hunting licence revoked as well as having there stalking rifle taken away from them .

as they show no regard for the animals that they hunt and there frame of mind would suggest that they sneezed there brains out last winter .

Dusty87

I would have to agree with jw on this one. I have shot a vixen with cubs once. For a farmer. And would do it if i had to for my own poultry but would rather not. With muntie as they breed all year round they wil nearly always have a calf wit them (weather its dependent or not). To leave a calf die seems a bit cruel. To me anyway.

buck hunter

Not that i shoot deer fawn/calves, but from a deer management point of view, if you have a problem with a mother and her calf you are supposerd to take the calf before the mother so you dont end up with the calf running of and dying....

Dusty87

buck hunter wrote: »

Not that i shoot deer fawn/calves, but from a deer management point of view, if you have a problem with a mother and her calf you are supposerd to take the calf before the mother so you dont end up with the calf running of and dying....

i know that, i think you misunderstood me. just some people were sayin about shootin the doe etc, but wit muntjac they wil nearly always have a calf at foot so to tell weather its dependant or not would be hard. I agree with you to shoot the fawn.

Tackleberrywho

Dusty87 wrote: »

i know that, i think you misunderstood me. just some people were sayin about shootin the doe etc, but wit muntjac they wil nearly always have a calf at foot so to tell weather its dependant or not would be hard. I agree with you to shoot the fawn.

When I had a section 42 the only regulation was that I shoot the calf first. Which I would do. as a previously mentioned point was, if unsure just shoot males, No males x Time = No Females!!

I would worry about the knock on affects from their expansion, like the zebra mussel, Grey squirrel had on our eco system. If they damage river banks they could have unknown affects on the eco system........

Back on topic a ,.22/250 would be a fine rifle for them, nice and light with mild recoil.

jwshooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

When I had a section 42 the only regulation was that I shoot the calf first. Which I would do. as a previously mentioned point was, if unsure just shoot males, No males x Time = No Females!!

I would worry about the knock on affects from their expansion, like the zebra mussel, Grey squirrel had on our eco system. If they damage river banks they could have unknown affects on the eco system........

Back on topic a ,.22/250 would be a fine rifle for them, nice and light with mild recoil.

previously mentioned point ,you would have no problem with leaving orphaned animals .

and thats a big " if " .


i would not let you have lego let alone a section 42 .