Are Irish State Benefits too generous.

alex73

Ok,, before I get bombarded with messages....Let me explain my post.

I have 2 foreign friends who came here to work, They got jobs but there made redundant after a number of months. Social welfare said they were not entitled to benefits as they had not worked for long enough in Ireland. So it was either find a new job or go home.

One of my friends looked for a Job for 6 weeks and got one in a hotel doing night work. The other got a job in a Petrol station. They told me that in Ireland there are still jobs if people really want them. (both a earning in the region of 400 euros a week). They also said the Irish welfare payments are more than the average monthly wage in many EU countries.

Now I know its stupid to suggest there are 400,000 jobs out there for the over 400,000 people unemployed. But even back in 2004/5 we had over 100,000 people unemployed yet 200,000 people were able to come to Ireland and find work. (beggers belief but true)

My friends opinion is that Irish social welfare payments are too high and that they don't encourage people who are long term unemployed to work.

tenchi-fan

Yes, benefits are far too generous.

The usual argument is "I'd like to see YOU survive on €200 a week." The thing is, I *could* do it. I just chose not to because I can earn a lot more by working. However, if the option was a suite of benefits (jobseekers, rent allowance and a medical card) versus a minimum wage job with antisocial hours and the expense of taxis and other work-related expenses I would be very tempted not to work.

There was a time in this country that people had no money. Kids used to run out to the streets to pick up coal that fell from the coal lorry, and in the country people used to hunt rabbits and spend their time picking shotgun pellets out of them before they could eat! Now the name of the game is convenience. Some people have become too lazy to work.

Lone parents benefits are far too high also. I often notice a lot of these people who leave the post office with their benefits push their child's buggy off the footpath because they know the oncoming traffic have to stop and let them cross the road. By the same token, if they don't receive enough in benefits their kids will be the first to suffer.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Some people don't want jobs because they know that they can make a better living on social welfare. It's sad but there is truth to it! There are those that won't bring in as much money if they get a job, as well as those who won't marry their partners for the same reasons. More benefits without them!

And for the record this was said straight out by people interviewed on RTE1

cee_jay

Not really suited to State Benefits - moving to Irish Economy.

Denerick

There are some rock bottom jobs but there are few and far between. For every vacancy in McDonalds there are at the very least 20 applicants. Your foreign friends have a misty view on this, I think.

Generally, welfare should be cut. I know far too many people my age with no dependants and who live comfortably and spend the money on drink. It should be means tested, parents with family members should be shielded from the worst.

Brussels Sprout

Since 2008 I've been on the dole twice, for 5 months and then 7 months the second time. I hated being on it and felt really uncomfortable collecting it every week and especially going to the dole office every month to sign on. I ended up leaving the country to find work on both occasions.

I was able to live pretty comfortably (obviously had to cut out all luxuries from my lifestyle) on it and felt that the size of the payments were certainly a deterrent to finding a minimum wage job.

When I had to go to the social welfare office in the UK to get a national insurance number for work, I told them about the level of payments over here. They were shocked. As you all probably know it's 60 pounds per week over here and people have to sign on every fortnight for it. And yes the UK is cheaper but not so much so that we need to be paying out three times as much dole to people. The funny thing is I keep hearing in the media over here about how they have to cut benefits to deter people from not actively seeking work-I can only imagine what they would say about the Irish system!

Like public sector wages, social welfare payments rose on the wave of the Celtic Tiger and now that that has crashed they have remained stranded at an artificially high level. Our country is running a massive budget deficit and both of these must be cut. Doing either though will be hugely unpopular with the affected parties, who comprise a large section of the electorate. It would take a brave politician to do so. Hence I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Welease

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Since 2008 I've been on the dole twice, for 5 months and then 7 months the second time. I hated being on it and felt really uncomfortable collecting it every week and especially going to the dole office every month to sign on. I ended up leaving the country to find work on both occasions.

(unpopular comment incoming)

Thats always been my concern.. The celtic tiger populace in Ireland seem to now believe that its' the governments job to find them work. If no jobs are available, then it's up to someone else to put the effort in to get them a job..

The slush funds and borrowing from the government will run out soon enough, then people will get a real dose of reality..

It's your job to get yourself some work.. here or in another country, and if you don't have the skills then you better get them..

Brussels Sprout

Welease wrote: »

(unpopular comment incoming)

Thats always been my concern.. The celtic tiger populace in Ireland seem to now believe that its' the governments job to find them work. If no jobs are available, then it's up to someone else to put the effort in to get them a job..

The slush funds and borrowing from the government will run out soon enough, then people will get a real dose of reality..

It's your job to get yourself some work.. here or in another country, and if you don't have the skills then you better get them..

I think you misread the tone of my post. The point that I was trying to make was that I'd rather emigrate then stay on the dole. However if you don't share that attitude then the generous social welfare benefits certainly won't make you change your mind.

I in no way stated that I expected to have a job handed to me. Please be more careful with your assumptions.

McDougal

Typical reationary rubbish from the small minded posters on here. The reason for unemployment doubling in 18 months is not because benifits are too high.

Welease

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I think you misread the tone of my post. The point that I was trying to make was that I'd rather emigrate then stay on the dole. However if you don't share that attitude then the generous social welfare benefits certainly won't make you change your mind.

I in no way stated that I expected to have a job handed to me. Please be more careful with your assumptions.

Sorry... my post read wrong. it wasnt directed at you.. You, like me (although I left 20 odd years ago) left to find work..

Others seem to believe that it's up to the government, fdi, industry to create the type of work (with suitable) pay that they want to take, otherwise benefits need to be kept high enough to keep them in the lifestyle they are used to.

EDit - I bolded your "left" comment to enforce my point.. but i probably needed to express that better.. apologies.

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Typical reationary rubbish from the small minded posters on here. The reason for unemployment doubling in 18 months is not because benifits are too high.

No it's because of multiple factors.. one being the high cost of employment.. and you seem to believe raising wages and adding further pensions fixes this.. :rolleyes:

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

No it's because of multiple factors.. one being the high cost of employment.. and you seem to believe raising wages and adding further pensions fixes this.. :rolleyes:

So what will cutting medical cards, OAP bus passes and the dole actually achieve? All it will mean is less disposable income and a drop in consumption. Do you think that is a good thing?

Denerick

McDougal wrote: »

So what will cutting medical cards, OAP bus passes and the dole actually achieve? All it will mean is less disposable income and a drop in consumption. Do you think that is a good thing?

In the short term, perhaps. In the long term you will notice a great benefit from a decreased tax and debt burden. As an old French economist/politician once said following the end of the Napoleonic wars, 'it is what you don't see' that brings prosperity. There was anxiety about demobilisation after 1815 but it was clearly better to demobilise hundreds of thousands of soldiers and deal with the economic risks (Businesses which relied on military supply contracts) and social costs (Demobilised armies are always a social burden) than keep the status quo.

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

So what will cutting medical cards, OAP bus passes and the dole actually achieve? All it will mean is less disposable income and a drop in consumption. Do you think that is a good thing?

We don't need to cut medical cards or OAP passes if the services being delivered were efficient.. however they are not, they are wrapped up in red tape and union inefficiencies.. so we end up with (for example) the HSE where we pay one of the highest per capita rates for health in OECD but have one of the worst services..

Do you think thats acceptable? (see I can avoid every question also, and just keep creating new ones... )

longhalloween

This argument is redundant and has been done to death many times on boards. Although I've yet to see anyone who is on the dole complain that its too high...

Maybe its a case of 'don't knock it until you try it'.

McDougal

Denerick wrote: »

In the short term, perhaps. In the long term you will notice a great benefit from a decreased tax and debt burden. As an old French economist/politician once said following the end of the Napoleonic wars, 'it is what you don't see' that brings prosperity. There was anxiety about demobilisation after 1815 but it was clearly better to demobilise hundreds of thousands of soldiers and deal with the economic risks (Businesses which relied on military supply contracts) and social costs (Demobilised armies are always a social burden) than keep the status quo.

So take away people's medical cards so we can cut the taxation on millionaires by a few %? In fact the rich in Ireland pay barely any tax anyway. They get their accountants and lawyers to wriggle out of it for them. It's much better for the economy for the poor to have money to spend in local shops rather than having the rich piss away money on property speculation and going on golfing holidays.

Welease

longhalloween wrote: »

This argument is redundant and has been done to death many times on boards. Although I've yet to see anyone who is on the dole complain that its too high...

Maybe its a case of 'don't knock it until you try it'.

I've not heard many people claim to be overpaid. But wages seems to be one of the reasons companies choose to locate elsewhere, and dole seems (in the case of the north) to be the reason some people choose to sign on here..

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

So take away people's medical cards so we can cut the taxation on millionaires by a few %? In fact the rich in Ireland pay barely any tax anyway. They get their accountants and lawyers to wriggle out of it for them. It's much better for the economy for the poor to have money to spend in local shops rather than having the rich piss away money on property speculation and going on golfing holidays.

oh dear... here we go again..

I could spend the time putting a link showing that the lowest 50% of earners in this country don't actually pay tax.. but I assume like the other thread you wont even bother to read it...

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

oh dear... here we go again..

I could spend the time putting a link showing that the lowest 50% of earners in this country don't actually pay tax.. but I assume like the other thread you wont even bother to read it...

Maybe they don't pay tax but they make alot of profit for rich folks who don't work nearly as hard.

paky

alex73 wrote: »

Ok,, before I get bombarded with messages....Let me explain my post.

I have 2 foreign friends who came here to work, They got jobs but there made redundant after a number of months. Social welfare said they were not entitled to benefits as they had not worked for long enough in Ireland. So it was either find a new job or go home.

One of my friends looked for a Job for 6 weeks and got one in a hotel doing night work. The other got a job in a Petrol station. They told me that in Ireland there are still jobs if people really want them. (both a earning in the region of 400 euros a week). They also said the Irish welfare payments are more than the average monthly wage in many EU countries.

Now I know its stupid to suggest there are 400,000 jobs out there for the over 400,000 people unemployed. But even back in 2004/5 we had over 100,000 people unemployed yet 200,000 people were able to come to Ireland and find work. (beggers belief but true)

My friends opinion is that Irish social welfare payments are too high and that they don't encourage people who are long term unemployed to work.

Irish social welfare payments are way too high. I was on the doel here in Belfast for about 3 weeks and I got about 80pound a fortnight. It definitly gave me the incentive to work!!!!
I think its a bit late to cut social welfare payments in the south now. I think it would of made more sense to do it during the boom when there was plenty of work about.

Having said that I do believe the government had a hidden agenda for having social welfare payments so high!

Brussels Sprout

McDougal wrote: »

Typical reationary rubbish from the small minded posters on here. The reason for unemployment doubling in 18 months is not because benifits are too high.

It's certainly not the reason why people get onto the dole in the first place but I believe that it keeps them on it longer than they would be if it was half the level that it is. I know half a dozen people with college degrees and 3-4 years experience who haven't even bothered trying to find work abroad because they'd rather wait it out in Ireland for the same kind of pre-bust job to come along again. It's called jobseeker's benefit for a reason.

The system also encourages stagnation amongst people because if they go back to college to retrain then they'll lose their welfare in many cases. Faced with this prospect most people won't even consider this option.

Joe1919

'That is why we are making the following targeted changes:
for new applicants, the rate of Job-seekers Allowance and Supplementary Welfare Allowance for persons aged 20 and 21 years of age who have no dependent children is being reduced to 100 per week and for those aged between 22 and 24 to 150 per week; and for all other cases, the rate will be reduced to 150 per week where job offers or activation measures have been refused.'
2009 Budget Speech http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2010/financialstatement.aspx

My opinion is that they intend making changes in the future but the social welfare system is overloaded at present, with people queuing on the streets. Don't forget that it takes time to check out cases and there are systems of appeals, rights to an oral hearing etc. and this creates extra work.

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Maybe they don't pay tax but they make alot of profit for rich folks who don't work nearly as hard.

I was working on a long response to this.. then i remembered

a) You wont bother to read any of the data
b) You just pop out populist opinions, and don't care to understand the situtation..

So I didn't bother... but i will leave you with this (which you will ignore)..

people don't get rich (in general) by doing nothing.... if they still have a viable business and a company, they probably have worked harder than you could ever understand (given as far as I understand, you don't pay income tax, so (and I may be wrong, open to correct) you dont have a job...

Flex

Yes, it is too generous for what we can afford and its a completely screwed up system. Perfect example; I found out on Friday evening when I was out with my friends that one of our other 'friends' had just received back dated dole payments. He applied in March and last week was given just over €3,800. Hes 24, lives at home with his parents who provide everything for him, has literally never worked a day in his life, never paid a single cent of PAYE or PRSI and has no intention of finding a job (he sleeps all day and stays awake all night drinking and playing World of Warcraft or watching TV). I could probably count on one hand the amount of CV's hes ever sent out looking for a job in the last 5 years. And as far as we're aware he'll be getting €150 a week or so from now on (until he goes to college in a few weeks, which he will no doubt drop out of before the end of first year, but not until after costing the country a few thousand euros in college fees). :mad:

Byron85

Flex wrote: »

Yes, it is too generous for what we can afford and its a completely screwed up system. Perfect example; I found out on Friday evening when I was out with my friends that one of our other 'friends' had just received back dated dole payments. He applied in March and last week was given just over €3,800. Hes 24, lives at home with his parents who provide everything for him, has literally never worked a day in his life, never paid a single cent of PAYE or PRSI and has no intention of finding a job (he sleeps all day and stays awake all night drinking and playing World of Warcraft or watching TV). I could probably count on one hand the amount of CV's hes ever sent out looking for a job in the last 5 years. And as far as we're aware he'll be getting €150 a week or so from now on (until he goes to college in a few weeks, which he will no doubt drop out of before the end of first year, but not until after costing the country a few thousand euros in college fees). :mad:

How about you mind your own business? Moan moan moan.

paky

Flex wrote: »

Yes, it is too generous for what we can afford and its a completely screwed up system. Perfect example; I found out on Friday evening when I was out with my friends that one of our other 'friends' had just received back dated dole payments. He applied in March and last week was given just over €3,800. Hes 24, lives at home with his parents who provide everything for him, has literally never worked a day in his life, never paid a single cent of PAYE or PRSI and has no intention of finding a job (he sleeps all day and stays awake all night drinking and playing World of Warcraft or watching TV). I could probably count on one hand the amount of CV's hes ever sent out looking for a job in the last 5 years. And as far as we're aware he'll be getting €150 a week or so from now on (until he goes to college in a few weeks, which he will no doubt drop out of before the end of first year, but not until after costing the country a few thousand euros in college fees). :mad:

hes only getten the doel now, hes 24 and never worked a day in his life? what was he doing b4 he applied in march?

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

I was working on a long response to this.. then i remembered

a) You wont bother to read any of the data
b) You just pop out populist opinions, and don't care to understand the situtation..

So I didn't bother... but i will leave you with this (which you will ignore)..

people don't get rich (in general) by doing nothing.... if they still have a viable business and a company, they probably have worked harder than you could ever understand (given as far as I understand, you don't pay income tax, so (and I may be wrong, open to correct) you dont have a job...

Are you saying no one makes profit off the work of others? The rich pay tax from the money they steal off the workers so in reality its the low paid workers who pay all the tax.

Denerick

McDougal wrote: »

Are you saying no one makes profit off the work of others? The rich pay tax from the money they steal off the workers so in reality its the low paid workers who pay all the tax.

Behold, the new (less articulate) Karl Marx!

Flex

Byron85 wrote: »

How about you mind your own business? Moan moan moan.

:rolleyes:

Flex

paky wrote: »

hes only getten the doel now, hes 24 and never worked a day in his life? what was he doing b4 he applied in march?

Nothing, sitting around playing World of Warcraft and watching TV

paky

Welease wrote: »

I was working on a long response to this.. then i remembered

a) You wont bother to read any of the data
b) You just pop out populist opinions, and don't care to understand the situtation..

So I didn't bother... but i will leave you with this (which you will ignore)..

people don't get rich (in general) by doing nothing.... if they still have a viable business and a company, have worked they probably harder than you could ever understand (given as far as I understand, you don't pay income tax, so (and I may be wrong, open to correct) you dont have a job...

so your saying that people that are rich work harder than people who are not?

so bill gates is a billionaire because he works harder than me?

i would put wealth down to opportunity, fortunate circumstances and hard work.
I know plenty of people who break there backs in minimum wage jobs and it doesnt seem to make them any richer.

McDougal

Flex wrote: »

Nothing, sitting around playing World of Warcraft and watching TV

In that case his family should be paying more tax

Denerick

McDougal wrote: »

In that case his family should be paying more tax

Or he could get a job.

paky

Flex wrote: »

Nothing, sitting around playing World of Warcraft and watching TV

so why did he suddenly start claiming benefits after lets say 6 years of leaving school?

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Are you saying no one makes profit off the work of others?

If I ever said that.. you would be able to quote it.. given your lack of quote, we both know the answer to that one...

McDougal wrote: »

The rich pay tax from the money they steal off the workers so in reality its the low paid workers who pay all the tax.

Your are either an economics genius or an idiot.. I'll give you the benefit of doubt if you can find any economics expert who backs up your opinion...

Flex

paky wrote: »

so why did he suddenly start claiming benefits after lets say 6 years of leaving school?

His sister was going down to sign on and he went with her. Before that, Id put it down to him being too lazy or being asleep during the hours the welfare office was open.

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

If I ever said that.. you would be able to quote it.. given your lack of quote, we both know the answer to that one...



Your are either an economics genius or an idiot.. I'll give you the benefit of doubt if you can find any economics expert who backs up your opinion...

You've never read Das Kapital I take it? It's a sad day when Marc Coleman is more influential than Karl Marx.

Welease

paky wrote: »

so your saying that people that are rich work harder than people who are not?

so bill gates is a billionaire because he works harder than me?

i would put wealth down to opportunity, fortunate circumstances and hard work.
I know plenty of people who break there backs in minimum wage jobs and it doesnt seem to make them any richer.

Its about value...

You can break your back digging ditches... should you be paid more than someone who takes a risk, creates a company and develops a product run on 99% of computers globally? who might never break a sweat?

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

You've never read Das Kapital I take it? It's a sad day when Marc Coleman is more influential than Karl Marx.

Short answer for (and not that short)....


Umm no.. I don't have any data/facts/links to back up my opinion....

Brussels Sprout

paky wrote: »

so your saying that people that are rich work harder than people who are not?

so bill gates is a billionaire because he works harder than me?

i would put wealth down to opportunity, fortunate circumstances and hard work.
I know plenty of people who break there backs in minimum wage jobs and it doesnt seem to make them any richer.

I'd nearly agree with you apart from I think that opportunity and fortunate circumstances are kind of the same thing.

I think you need talent, hard work and luck to become rich.

Bill Gates had all three in spades. Someone working a minimum wage job may be a hard worker but may be either unlucky or not particularly talented at something more prized or both.

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

Short answer for (and not that short)....


Umm no.. I don't have any data/facts/links to back up my opinion....

Are you honestly telling me you've never heard the theory of surplus value?

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Are you honestly telling me you've never heard the theory of surplus value?

No, I'm telling you (as per the charter of this very forum) that if you....

2. Continuing Threads

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If you wish to discuss a separate issue which has arisen in a discussion, then take it to a separate thread, and post a link in the original thread if you feel it appropriate.
When offering an opinion, please state so. Please do not present an opinion as "fact" - it only leads to flaming and a moderator may demand further evidence.

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If at any stage you feel (as previously requested) you can offer a quote/link or data to back up your opinion... then be my guest..

paky

Welease wrote: »

Its about value...

You can break your back digging ditches... should you be paid more than someone who takes a risk, creates a company and develops a product run on 99% of computers globally? who might never break a sweat?

No you shouldnt but not everybodies sole purpose in life is to serve the economy

Welease

paky wrote: »

No you shouldnt but not everybodies sole purpose in life is to serve the economy

Of course it's not.. but you were the one who raised the issue that Bill Gates was a billionaire because he might work harder than you...

(and yeah, i bet he worked a lot harder than you ever worked, and he was a damn load smarter than you or me)

paky

Welease wrote: »

Of course it's not.. but you were the one who raised the issue that Bill Gates was a billionaire because he might work harder than you...

(and yeah, i bet he worked a lot harder than you ever worked, and he was a damn load smarter than you or me)

wtf makes you think that? have you ever met me?
speak for yourself!

Welease

paky wrote: »

wtf makes you think that? have you ever met me?
speak for yourself!

Interesting..

I didn't claim anything... You raised the issue that Gates is a billionaire, and deduced that it was because he worked harder..

I agree it wasnt his purpose to serve the economy..

Beyond that.. why do you have an issue with him, or feel you should earn what he does?

Brussels Sprout

Welease wrote: »

Its about value...

You can break your back digging ditches... should you be paid more than someone who takes a risk, creates a company and develops a product run on 99% of computers globally? who might never break a sweat?

With the construction industry in the state it is the only diches being dug nowadays are by the county council. Therefore ditch diggers are probably doing a lot better than a lot of the rest of the population

Welease

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

With the construction industry in the state it is the only diches being dug nowadays are by the county council. Therefore ditch diggers are probably doing a lot better than a lot of the rest of the population

Even better... as per the bin men.. they can outsource for cheaper and sit on their asses as per the Croke Park agreement.

ei.sdraob

Jesus some funny characters on thread

You could work hard all life digging ditches only for some genius to invent a digger and get rich digging ditches faster and cheaper than you

Its called being more innovative and productive

Not many people get rich by doing nothing.winning the lotto and inheriting a fortune are rare exceptions

Brussels Sprout

paky wrote: »

wtf makes you think that? have you ever met me?
speak for yourself!

I wouldn't be too insulted. Saying that isn't the same as calling you stupid and lazy.

Betting that Bill Gates is smarter and a harder worker than you is like betting that David Villa is a better footballer than you. It's possible that you are but not very probable.

heavyballs

the dole should be made up of some cash and some form of vouchers like the old butter vouchers, i know a drug dealer's from my area who are earning mad money still picking up the dole,some giving it to their Mother to keep her off their case and others just put it all away,this country's a joke,the cops know who these people are....that's what pisses me off...