Activision declares war on pre-owned games

Thrill

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=258926

Activision has added its voice to the chorus of major publishers looking to do damage to - or at least take a chunk of money out of - the second-hand games market.

2010 has already seen EA Sports launch its controversial Online Pass - which requires gamers to enter a one-time code for important in-game content.

The move seems to be a bid to deliberately devalue pre-owned titles - and has been emulated by THQ. Ubisoft, meanwhile, has publicly supported the idea.

Speaking in Activision Blizzard's Q2 investors call last night, COO Thomas Tippl said the firm was increasing the importance of its DLC to 'limit the supply' of content in pre-owned titles.

"We are still evaluating various possibilities for greater participation in the used-games business. What's been working the best so far is providing additional content and therefore limiting the supply to used games.


"So that's a proven strategy that we will continue. And any other initiatives, we will be talking about when we get closer to it."

He added: "Today [we have] more resources than ever dedicated to creating additional content for Call of Duty, whether that's map packs, whether that's game modes and the whole host of new [downloadable] features that we're going to talk about when we get close to the launch of Black Ops."

Looks like we can expect some weighty DLC for Black Ops, then - and perhaps even an 'online pass' all of Activision's own.

I buy new games myself so this kind of thing wont affect me. Still, it smacks of greed.

It may also effect the amount you get off new games when trading in if the pre-owned games become devalued through this.

Minstrel27

Thrill wrote: »

Still, it smacks of greed.

Greed is the profits that Gamestop etc. make from pre owned games.

Varik

It's Activision, does anyone think this will be the this will be a good thing. To keep online games going involves a cost and they should get something from used games but it's Activision and there will be a cost to everyone (less maps on games and more expensive map packs)

amacachi

Nominal fee of a fiver per game for online access and content at point of purchase would be smart I'd have thought.

johnmcdnl

so there pushing DLC and making us pay for online essentially - it's a rich mans hobby

guess my gaming days will soon start to end - preowned is the only way I can afford most games - I tend to only get games 12 months after release on preowned because otherwise I'd only be able to afford 1 new game rather than 3 preowned...

3DataModem

Less money for retailers = More money for content creators = a good thing.

In 15 years the retail of physical media will be virtually gone. The idea of a transferrable media asset (music, video, games, books) will be niche at best.

This will create a licensing model that will bring the price of content down, but all but remove the secondary market.

It's coming - Activision don't want to miss the party.

jill_valentine

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Greed is the profits that Gamestop etc. make from pre owned games.

It's less simple than it seems.

Used videogame pricing is a tricky thing. I used to work in a game shop, and we would occasionally throw out games purely because nobody wants them and they weren't worth the effort of shuffling round shelves any more.

If a shop offers a decent price for a title that turns out to be a dud you'll end up paying for a bajillion copies of some lump of ****e that will depreciate to nothing in the space of a fortnight. You don't really know until about a week after release whether the price your offering reflects the worth of the thing as saleable stock.

So although the margins they make on some games are big, they rely on those profits to cover the losses they'll make on the stinkers and to drive the rest of their trade. The margin on new titles is effectively negligible by comparison, and on consoles it's just about nonexistent.

Which leads us to my main point, and why I think companies like Activision should tread very carefully in this area. The margin a store gets for a newish title in preowned is big, yes - but it's the preowned trade that keeps them in business nowadays. Forget about the new releases, they're very much secondary. A big new release is pushed purely on speculation that it will generate preowned sales later on down the line, when the people who buy it come to trade it in. Developers and publishers don't directly profit from the preowned trade, but they do depend on it indirectly to support their new titles when the time comes.

It's a complex and fragile little ecosystem all of it's own, and they should be wary of tampering with it too aggressively.

Baz898

wow, amazing how greedy these companies will get. ive bought a good few second hand games, it saves alot of money! Gamestop and all them places, do rip ya off with games big time! I was in Galway a while ago and was looking around to buy Uncharted 2, IN HMV Uncharted 2 brand new was cheaper than a pre-owned game of Uncharted 2 in Gamestop! Gamestop ripping you off with pre-owned games.

Nerdkiller1991

Well this being Activision, it will be inevitable until they start charging for online gaming...with the exact same features as the earlier games, while still paying €15 for 3 new maps and 2 rehashed ones. I mean, come on. Kotick is now worse than your average banker.

GTR63

Screw Activison I had buy my brothers Modern Warfare recently 2nd hand,a Game released nearly 3 years ago because they were still charging €50 for it new.It was thankfully in excellent condition along with the 2nd hand copy of World at War.
Instead of tackling 2nd hand games how about trying to save the Guitar Hero franchise which is dying on its arse.

johndoe99

Businesses such as Gamestop thrive on there pre-owned games. If this goes into full effect with all the leading game maufacturers, a year or two down the line, gamestop will be relying on just the New games (hopefully that will make them lower there prices). But it may just make them have to close a lot of there businesses and put loads out of work.

Personally, I buy very few games, maybe 3 a year, i just rely on their used Moviesm, which gamestop are still charging dearly on Blurays.

johndoe99

GTR63 wrote: »

Screw Activison I had buy my brothers Modern Warfare recently 2nd hand,a Game released nearly 3 years ago because they were still charging €50 for it new.

Feck that was dear, where was this ?

Notorious

johndoe99 wrote: »

(hopefully that will make them lower there prices)

They can't really afford to lower their prices tbh, unless the creators decide to sell them to stores for less.

From a standpoint of working in a games store at the moment, some of the prices of pre-owned games makes me sick. It's great that you can pick up games from the back catalogue at a cheap price (eg. €12.99 for inFamous) but at the same time they still can charge insane prices for any new-ish releases (Red Dead is €50 brand new and the pre-owned price is only €5 cheaper - they only give you €25 store credit for the trade-in). It'll be very interesting to see how the market adapts to a serious crack-down on the pre-owned market.

Varik

Notorious wrote: »

They can't really afford to lower their prices tbh, unless the creators decide to sell them to stores for less.

From a standpoint of working in a games store at the moment, some of the prices of pre-owned games makes me sick. It's great that you can pick up games from the back catalogue at a cheap price (eg. €12.99 for inFamous) but at the same time they still can charge insane prices for any new-ish releases (Red Dead is €50 brand new and the pre-owned price is only €5 cheaper - they only give you €25 store credit for the trade-in). It'll be very interesting to see how the market adapts to a serious crack-down on the pre-owned market.

That's the sale they should be going after, and it's the sale EA have tried to get with project €10/pass. The developers don't get that money from a used game people bought just because it was €5 cheaper, used games are fine for old games like getting inFamous €12.99 but for new games i'm fine with online passes and extra DLC with a new game, i still dislike Activision because of the of the price of the map packs and treatment of staff.

johndoe99

Varik wrote: »

i still dislike Activision because of the of the price of the map packs and treatment of staff.

and treatment of staff ?

I must have missed that, can you fill me in on that, or is there another thread ?

GTR63

johndoe99 wrote: »

Feck that was dear, where was this ?

GAME,the release day of Red Dead(May 21st I think).I went up & asked them how much was a New Copy for PS3 they said €50.
I said give me a 2nd hand a still fair expensive €30.World at War released a year after was €35 new & €20 2nd hand so I bought them both which were in great condition & saved €35 quid.I bought Arkham Asylum,Dragon Age,
Left 4 Dead 2 & Warioware D.I.Y all newer games & none were 2nd hand & they were all Far cheaper than 2 & a half year old Modern Warfare.
Its now €33 in the new Argos Catalogue hardly a Bargain compared to Uncharted 2 which is €23,Halo 3 €23 & Gears 2 €19.They're fair crooks

Zeouterlimits

johndoe99 wrote: »

and treatment of staff ?

I must have missed that, can you fill me in on that, or is there another thread ?

This is a quick summary.

F1ngers

Moved, not just a PS issue

calex71

GTR63 wrote: »

how about trying to save the Guitar Hero franchise which is dying on its arse.

It's been dead a long time, they are just defiling it's rotten corpse at this point.

Motley Crue

This is complete ****. One of the best things about a games console has always been the trade in factor of games - that is, the ability to finish a game and then trade it in - you shouldn't be punished if you buy a game and then finish it in a few days or hours, or it turns out its not what you expected. Now developers want the money from us, and seem intent not to let us sell it on...and most of the time you sell or trade your old game to buy another game

Take Konami, who make Metal Gear Solid, well I wouldn't have been given the chance to play some of the other fantastic stuff they did if it wasn't for trading my finished games in and getting some newer ones

Mr E

Motley Crue wrote: »

you shouldn't be punished if you buy a game and then finish it in a few days or hours, or it turns out its not what you expected.

But you're not being punished. You'll still be able to trade it in (and still get the same sh*tty trade in value). The people being punished are the suckers who buy it second hand, and have to pay an add-on toll to Activision to be able to play it properly.

K.O.Kiki

Can we make all new games cost €25-30 then?
I'll happily pay a 1-customer online "fee" if it makes games cheaper.
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That or I'll switch to PC entirely.

I only buy second hand games due to the fact I refuse to pay anything more than €50 for a game that might only last 10 hours. This just is not feasible to me in the slightest.

What if you don't play online and buy the game secondhand, will these efforts that EA have put into motion affect me whatsoever?

2smiggy

have a look at tiger woods 11 on the ps store, there must be 12 different courses to download. i think would cost an extra 20 -25 euros to buy these. things are indeed getting expensive.

Varik

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Can we make all new games cost €25-30 then?
I'll happily pay a 1-customer online "fee" if it makes games cheaper.
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...
...
That or I'll switch to PC entirely.

The EA online passes come free with the new copies of games, so only those buying used games have a need to pay it. if you buy a used game at €25-30 then you'll pay extra but buying new there should be no difference. What ever happens it won't make new games cheaper, used games may become cheaper when online won't be included and trade-in prices will be lower for games.

Gummy Panda

I only buy PC now so doesn't affect me that much.

I do hate Gamestop for their aggressive trade-in tactics. One guy in particular is annoying. I was buying a new release Ps3 game a few months back and he was pressuring me to the take the insurance even after i refused it, saying that the game will get scratched.

A while after that I was buying a recent enough release ps3 game that was reduced. He told me he had a preowned copy for €5 cheaper. I told him I wasn't interested and liked my games brand new. He then starts going on about how PS3 bluray discs are dual layer so its impossible to scratch them. I was standing there thinking to myself "this is the same guy who was annoying me over insurance and ps3 games scratching!!".

I was about to tell him fcuk off when he got to the point about buying the preowned and taking insurance if I'm worried, which is the same price as a new sealed copy :rolleyes:

So if EA/Activision Blizzard want to stick it to Gamestop on preowned, they have my full backing

Grumpypants

I love the bull publishers come out with. It does not cost them a single penny to have a used game player play online. if they sell 100 games and 100 people go online. Then 50 sell the game they have 50 online but have been paid for 100. If the 50 games traded in get resold they still only have 100 players online and they have been paid for those 100 players already.

Its like their piracy hurts developers garbage. Piss off make a game thats more than 8 hours and has some replay value and dont tell retailers to charge me 69.99 for it and i may start listening to you.


I would prefere that online was an optional extra and make games 10 euro cheaper then everyone has to pay ten euro to go online. That way when i dont want to paly their pointless tacked on multiplayer games i dont pay for them. People with no internet connection wouldnt be paying for online content they cant use.

Teferi

Rapists. They expect us to shell out €50 quid on a game and then another €30 later on to get the DLC that in most cases should have came with the game anyway. I can only afford 2nd hand these days.

witnessmenow

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Greed is the profits that Gamestop etc. make from pre owned games.

It also cheapens the value of the game if you went to sell it on adverts.ie etc.

The way to solve this problem is simple, make me, the consumer, not want to sell the game. Take for example Team Fortress 2, Valve keep releasing updates keeping the game fresh I have no desire to part with it. Now I couldn't sell it even if I wanted to due to the nature of steam but its not the point, Give me a reason not to sell it and I wont sell it!

TheTosh

I hate Gamestop one example why is Fallout 3 not the GotY edition is 49 euro new and their sale isn't a sale, GAME is where its at good prices, brilliant loyalty and a better trade in value. Oh a couple of months back I got MW1 new for 13 euro in GAME

Grumpypants

Digital downloads will kill the industry just look at the PSP Go. You can buy MGS peace walker from Zavvi on UMD for 18euro go on PSN to download it for the PSP Go its 39.99

Once publishers start selling their own games as digital formats prices will sky rocket. The only reason we can buy a new game at more or less cost price is because its subsidised by used game sales.

It is annoying to see a used game often more expensive than a new one ! but i use a combination of online stores, trading, swapping and renting to get the best deals possible.

Publishers make no money from each game rented but you never hear them moaning about that i guess since xtravision dont post profits of 2.9 billion they dont care.

Korvanica

GTR63 wrote: »

Screw Activison I had buy my brothers Modern Warfare recently 2nd hand,a Game released nearly 3 years ago because they were still charging €50 for it new.It was thankfully in excellent condition along with the 2nd hand copy of World at War.
Instead of tackling 2nd hand games how about trying to save the Guitar Hero franchise which is dying on its arse.

Please Activision, DO NOT listen to this!!!! Let these Gimmics die already.

I buy most of my games new so im ok here. Games arent that expensive these days anymore anyway .... 45 - 50 for a new game... The used to be £70 !!!!! :eek::eek:
i only buy preowned games if theyre realy cheap (5 - 10 euro)... Decent for a few hours entertainment....

I never trade in, unless its a game im done with ( so basically that means a game with no multiplayer ) and i can get at least 30 for it...

Grumpypants

Korvanica wrote: »

I buy most of my games new so im ok here. Games arent that expensive these days anymore anyway .... 45 - 50 for a new game... The used to be £70 !!!!! :eek::eek:
...

They would still be 70 euro if it wasnt for the used game market. Publishers put a RRP of 69.99 on games here.

I got a price list recently from a publisher that showed what they expect game stores to pay for games and what they expect them to charge. It was in sterling so converting it, games cost just over 42 euro. Now im sure big stores get a better discount for buying large quanities. But if you look at HMV they charge 45 for a new game. So even forgetting about tax, rent, staff, electricity, insurance etc etc that a store has to deal with they would only make 3 euro on a new game sale. :eek:

They will also offer you money on your old game that is now useless to you because developers cant be arsed making it last or to keep updating it to keep people interested.

And publishers have an absolute cheek to say they want a share of their used game sales too !!!!

Retr0gamer

Yeah I remember the start of this generation all the companies saying that games cost so much to make that they needed to sell them at 70-80 euros. It was a joke considering the same game was 40 on PC. They were just money grabbing because it was a new format.

speedboatchase

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yeah I remember the start of this generation all the companies saying that games cost so much to make that they needed to sell them at 70-80 euros. It was a joke considering the same game was 40 on PC. They were just money grabbing because it was a new format.

Taking aside the fact we're talking about Activision and Bobby Kotick for a second - the money when you buy a game should go to the content creators. I was shocked last week when I went into GAME to find they had a now put up a used game chart alongside their new release chart for every single format - basically ensuring no-one in their right mind would buy a new release when they see them side by side and that GAME could pocket the cash for themselves.

Anyone that doesn't like DLC or the fact downloadable content is expensive/can't be traded in should bear in mind developers are left with little choice when the very outlets that are shopping their wares are doing this kind of practise on such a large scale. It's a difficult one because we all like a bargain but if you only buy pre-owned games you're bringing a download-only future closer and closer. Activision shouldn't be singled out for this, and certainly shouldn't be used as justification to 'stick it to the man' by not paying for new releases - smaller developers get hurt a lot more than Activision by the pre-owned market. GAME and the rest know that their well is running dry and that online is the future so they're trying to scoop as much profit as possible right now

Cuddlesworth

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yeah I remember the start of this generation all the companies saying that games cost so much to make that they needed to sell them at 70-80 euros. It was a joke considering the same game was 40 on PC. They were just money grabbing because it was a new format.

And nothing to do with the large cut Microsoft and Sony were asking for the games to off-set the loss making consoles.

Retr0gamer

Well they were selling them on previous consoles for 40 and selling them now for 40 with the same cuts to Sony and MS.

I would think that the law against second hand software sales would mean that second hand game selling would be illegal since you are buy a license from the publisher to use the software, not the software itself, shouldn't game, gamestop etc. not actually have any legal right to sell these games anyway without at least the license fee going to the publisher?

Cuddlesworth

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well they were selling them on previous consoles for 40 and selling them now for 40 with the same cuts to Sony and MS.

I would think that the law against second hand software sales would mean that second hand game selling would be illegal since you are buy a license from the publisher to use the software, not the software itself, shouldn't game, gamestop etc. not actually have any legal right to sell these games anyway without at least the license fee going to the publisher?

Previous consoles(pre xbox, playstation 2 etc) were not selling at a massive loss for the first few years of production. Except Nintendo, who have been laughing all the way to the bank. They have to make back the money somehow.

Mr. Presentable

Second hand games create no revenue for the designers. If you couldn't get a second hand copy you might buy a full price one, or a budget version 12 months later, which will accrue revenue for the designers.

The only solution other than banning resales of games is if the designers can negotiate a percentage with the resellers.

I'm with Activision on this one.

Retr0gamer

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Previous consoles(pre xbox, playstation 2 etc) were not selling at a massive loss for the first few years of production. Except Nintendo, who have been laughing all the way to the bank. They have to make back the money somehow.

Actually the PS2 was selling at a massive loss and only made a profit about 3 years into it's lifecycle (just like the PS3) while the Xbox never made a profit. Anyway why has that got anything to do with third party publishers considering the license fee was practically the same? It was bull****, plain and simple and they pulled the same trick the previous generation as well.

Cuddlesworth

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Actually the PS2 was selling at a massive loss and only made a profit about 3 years into it's lifecycle (just like the PS3) while the Xbox never made a profit. Anyway why has that got anything to do with third party publishers considering the license fee was practically the same? It was bull****, plain and simple and they pulled the same trick the previous generation as well.

If retailers survive because of the profits from second hand sales and the second hand sales are taken away then raising the prices of new games is the only option. The whole thing will tank brick and mortar retail sales and those company's are still too powerful to take this standing down.

GTR63

Korvanica wrote: »

Please Activision, DO NOT listen to this!!!! Let these Gimmics die already.

I'm not saying Guitar Hero had long in the Tank but the series was milked to death really quickly.They could do the same to COD if the 3rd studio working on the series release games too often.I think they're called Sledgehammer they've some good designers some worked on Dead Space but I don't want COD Overkill.I doubt Medal of Honor will challenge COD for sales this year.I think EA should push Battlefield more than the MOH Franchise.

Varik

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

If retailers survive because of the profits from second hand sales and the second hand sales are taken away then raising the prices of new games is the only option. The whole thing will tank brick and mortar retail sales and those company's are still too powerful to take this standing down.

Other shops(Tesco etc.) will undercut them if they raise their prices, and they will bend over and take it like they did with EA. The only ones that need Gamestop and the like are Microsoft and Sony, they need brick and mortar store to sell consoles.