More Public Sector Strike news

Head The Wall

Another frivolous strike, they are claiming that one of their key duties has been taken off them. First it was changing light bulbs and now this, the fact that other people can perform their so called "Key Duties" shows up how much real electrical work they actually do.

ELECTRICIANS have mounted pickets at a major hospital because other staff have been allowed to reset fire alarms.





Sounds like a great deal for someone, who that will be I don't know. It looks like they will either have 25 men per day in the one truck or there could be 5 different men per day on the one truck. What they will be doing the other days is a mystery. I presume they will still be collecting their full wage and perks.


an estimated 25 binmen will continue to provide direct labour in one of five waste collection services in the council area, using one lorry.

The agreement also means any savings made under the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown deal may be refunded to public servants next spring to make up for pay cuts.

They are keeping on around 25 of the 40 staff to do feck all by the sounds of it and most of the rest will be doing other work. Where are the savings being made here, there is a mention of redundancies in the report but it doesn't say how many. It all sounds like a big scam to me

Pete_Cavan

The agreement also means any savings made under the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown deal may be refunded to public servants next spring to make up for pay cuts.

So how does this do anything to reduce our deficit? So we are making savings in one area (although a fraction of the savings we could be making if we didnt have to retain direct labour) to refund public servants, cancelling out the savings made from pay cuts. Basically the net result is it will cost us more in redundancy and compensation packages. Perhaps we should just give into the unions and drop all cuts because all they seem to do is cost us more.

Head The Wall

That's exactly the problem with the CP deal. They are supposed to save money but they also have to keep paying for direct labour (services) that are costing more than they should.

The union said the deal also meant outsourcing of public services could only go ahead following talks with union representatives.

There will be feck all money saved if the unions are controlling every decision that is to be made. The sooner this deal gets kicked out the better, I for one won't be accepting the mantra from the unions that they have saved €€€ and are looking for their paycuts to be reversed next year.

deise blue

The Croke Park deal is between the Government as employers and the Unions reperesenting employees.

Fair play to the Unions for getting stuck in from the start to ensure that the Government are forced to adhere to their side of the agreement - only fair I would have thought ?

Head The Wall

You can't see the wood for the trees, do I really have to keep repeating what happens if there aren't enough savings in expenditure made. The unions are again looking at short term gains

Hopefully this is the governments plan, CP plan will get scrapped followed by layoffs and more cuts.

deise blue

Head The Wall wrote: »

You can't see the wood for the trees, do I really have to keep repeating what happens if there aren't enough savings in expenditure made. The unions are again looking at short term gains

Hopefully this is the governments plan, CP plan will get scrapped followed by layoffs and more cuts.

You are simply deluding yourself , the Croke Park deal is in situ.

No pay cuts or pension reform discussions until 2014.

Savings to be made via direct/indirect taxation and spending cuts.

You may console yourself that the C P deal can still facilitate pay cuts and pension reform prior to 2014 but every Irish economist worth his salt gas already conceded that this simply won't happen .

I look forward to resuming this discussion in mid 2014

Head The Wall

The implementation of this Agreement is subject to no currently unforeseen budgetary de-terioration.

Have to go now, I'll find the exact wording later which spells it out for you.

Count Dooku

deise blue wrote: »

No pay cuts or pension reform discussions until 2014.

"subject to no currently unforeseen budgetary deterioration"

Direct/indirect taxation will increase tax take for short term tax take, but will significantly increase welfare bill, because broadening of tax net will force more low paid workers switch to dole and nobody from politicians ever will touch welfare benefits
Lets postpone discussion about next round of cuts until march 2011

RichardAnd

Just to throw in my two cents on this.

Does anyone really expect the CPD will hold until 2014, really? My estimation is that one side will break their word before then. The government could produce figures proving that their get out of jail free card can be applied and the unions might simply just get greedy again.

The problem with these things is that the require something we lost during the Celtic Tiger; honour. If we had that, there wouldn't be a recession in the first place.

McDougal

Why does everyone on here support cutting the wages and jobs of ordinary working people? Are loudmouth extremists just more likely to post on internet forums than moderates or leftwingers?

Diarmuid

RichardAnd wrote: »

The government could produce figures proving that their get out of jail free card can be applied and the unions might simply just get greedy again.

Something like a 2010 Q1 deficit of 36% of GDP? *


* year end expected to be around 20%

Credit where credit is due

Diarmuid

McDougal wrote: »

Why does everyone on here support cutting the wages and jobs of ordinary working people?

What are ordinary working people? Who are the extra-ordinary working people?

Head The Wall

McDougal wrote: »

Why does everyone on here support cutting the wages and jobs of ordinary working people? Are loudmouth extremists just more likely to post on internet forums than moderates or leftwingers?

43% of current government spending is spent on Public Sector Pay and Pensions and this expenditure is supposedly of the tables as per the CP agreement. Why should 20% of the workforce be immune from cost savings when they make up nearly half the expenditure.

Especially given the reports highlighting the waste, over staffing, over administration etc that exists. It's the rest of the country that will have to pay for this deficit we have.

McDougal

Head The Wall wrote: »

43% of current government spending is spent on Public Sector Pay and Pensions and this expenditure is supposedly of the tables as per the CP agreement. Why should 20% of the workforce be immune from cost savings when they make up nearly half the expenditure.

Especially given the reports highlighting the waste, over staffing, over administration etc that exists. It's the rest of the country that will have to pay for this deficit we have.

How exactly are they immune from cutbacks? They have taken 2 pay cuts in the last 18 months. What about all the rich people in the private sector who haven't taken any cuts? And how exactly will the private sector benifit from cutting the disposable incomes of public sector workers? That will merely lead to money taken out of the economy and private sector jobs lost.

danbohan

McDougal wrote: »

Why does everyone on here support cutting the wages and jobs of ordinary working people? Are loudmouth extremists just more likely to post on internet forums than moderates or leftwingers?[/QUOT


are you talking about public servants , is that what you mean by ordinary workers


defination of ordinary

Of no exceptional ability, degree, or quality; average.


sounds about right i suppose

McDougal

danbohan wrote: »

McDougal wrote: »

Why does everyone on here support cutting the wages and jobs of ordinary working people? Are loudmouth extremists just more likely to post on internet forums than moderates or leftwingers?[/QUOT


are you talking about public servants , is that what you mean by ordinary workers


defination of ordinary

Of no exceptional ability, degree, or quality; average.


sounds about right i suppose

On average public sector workers are more qualified and skilled than private sector ones.

TheInquisitor

McDougal wrote: »

On average public sector workers are more qualified and skilled than private sector ones.

You actually couldn't be more wrong. Its actually the complete opposite!

McDougal

TheInquisitor wrote: »

You actually couldn't be more wrong. Its actually the complete opposite!

Eh it's a proven fact that a higher % of workers in the public sector have degrees. What are are you basing your nonsense comment on, the opinions of some deluded hack in the Sunday Independent?

TheInquisitor

McDougal wrote: »

Eh it's a proven fact that a higher % of workers in the public sector have degrees. What are are you basing your nonsense comment on, the opinions of some deluded hack in the Sunday Independent?

To be honest i didn't even read your post, i just wanted to disagree with you because i took an instant dislike to you. In fairness though you are completely right. Still don't like you though

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Eh it's a proven fact that a higher % of workers in the public sector have degrees. What are are you basing your nonsense comment on, the opinions of some deluded hack in the Sunday Independent?

I think people are confused because you chose to use the term "ordinary" worker..

As you are not "some deluded hack" you will understand that of course there are more degrees in the PS because the PS doesn't contain large amounts of retail/restaurant/manufacturing etc etc sectors which don't require the same level of qualifications as other sectors..

You will also obviously be aware of the ESRI reports that the PS enjoy a considerable pay premium over their private sector counterparts, and have done for many years

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20091102110232/WP321.pdf

You will also no doubt be aware of the Pension benefits available to the PS, and the current PS pension defecit in excess of 105 Billion Euro..

http://www.ssisi.ie/Moloney&Whelan2009.pdf

....

Or in other words...


"Ordinary" my fkin arse................

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

I think people are confused because you chose to use the term "ordinary" worker..

As you are not "some deluded hack" you will understand that of course there are more degrees in the PS because the PS doesn't contain large amounts of retail/restaurant/manufacturing etc etc sectors which don't require the same level of qualifications as other sectors..

You will also obviously be aware of the ESRI reports that the PS enjoy a considerable pay premium over their private sector counterparts, and have done for many years

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20091102110232/WP321.pdf

You will also no doubt be aware of the Pension benefits available to the PS, and the current PS pension defecit in excess of 105 Billion Euro..

http://www.ssisi.ie/Moloney&Whelan2009.pdf

....

Or in other words...


"Ordinary" my fkin arse................

Well let's compare like for like

Are teachers in public schools compared with those in private ones?
Are doctors in public hospitals compared with those in private ones?

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Well let's compare like for like

Are teachers in public schools compared more than in private ones?
Are doctors in public hospitals compared more than in private ones?

I'm going to assume you are not a "deluded hack", that you read the many reports available and you already know the answer to that question

Don't let me down

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

I'm going to assume you are not a "deluded hack", that you read the many reports available and you already know the answer to that question

Don't let me down

Can you not answer those questions seeing as you know the answer to everything?

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Can you not answer those questions seeing as you know the answer to everything?

I posted the links to reports... why not read them?

(and I didn't respond directly because your question doesn't actually make sense to me..
"Are teachers in public schools compared more than in private ones?
Are doctors in public hospitals compared more than in private ones? "

I am guessing you either mean.. were they paid more? Yes, or Were they compared against? Yes... as per my response, if you read the report the info is there)

Yes, there were comparison done where comparisons exist.. some argue its not a 100%, some argue they are close enough.. The detail is in the reports.
99% of other reports agree (largely based on the same data), SIPTU (iirc) produced a report which disagreed..

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

I posted the links to reports... why not read them?

(and I didn't respond directly because your question doesn't actually make sense to me..
"Are teachers in public schools compared more than in private ones?
Are doctors in public hospitals compared more than in private ones? "

I am guessing you either mean.. were they paid more? Yes, or Were they compared against? Yes... as per my response, if you read the report the info is there)

Yes, there were comparison done where comparisons exist.. some argue its not a 100%, some argue they are close enough.. The detail is in the reports.
99% of other reports agree (largely based on the same data), SIPTU (iirc) produced a report which disagreed..

Teachers in private schools are actually paid more than public ones. You are wrong. The reason wages in the private sector are lower on avarage is because the private sector includes the sh1te "McJobs".

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Teachers in private schools are actually paid more than public ones. You are wrong. The reason wages in the private sector are lower on avarage is because the private sector includes the sh1te "McJobs".

Link to data?

Two things..

1. It's not my report, so I can't be wrong, and
2. Your comment about McJobs displays you havent read any of the reports available.. /golfclap.

At least a "deluded hack" from the Independent will spend 2 minutes educating themselves on a topic they proclaim to understand..

Drumpot

McDougal wrote: »

Teachers in private schools are actually paid more than public ones. You are wrong. The reason wages in the private sector are lower on avarage is because the private sector includes the sh1te "McJobs".

Rehhhheaallllly ? I think you take the public service union rhetoric far too seriously . .

I worked in the financial services industry for two banks and an insurance company and never earned more then 25k (after 7 years of hard work). I have a management degree, a stockbroking diploma and am a qualified financial advisor . .

I knew hundreds of people working in offices that dreamt of getting any job in the public service . .

A myth that public service unions love to spew out is that everybody in the private sector made millions when the times were good. . I know people who openly admit to getting into the public service (even in good times) for job security and because pressure is less. Add the pension (that nobody seems to value) and the true value of a public service job in all area's is far more difficult to qualify . . Of course this suits the unions who can pick numbers out of their asses when they like, ignore objective debate and discredit "perks" that private employees do not enjoy . .

When I heard the nurses union turn their nose up at 32k as if its breadline salary, it made me sick and wonder what world some sections of society are living in ! ! !

Your inability to either read or discuss the data that welease posted and your so far heresay statistics on public servants are just an example of Union tactics of avoiding objective, clear debate on this topic, in favour of populist comments that really just wag the dog to take the focus off true progressive debate. ..

Pete_Cavan

McDougal wrote: »

Eh it's a proven fact that a higher % of workers in the public sector have degrees.

Yeah it makes me feel good to know the person serving me in the motor tax office has a degree in acient Greek mythology, they are worth every penny they get.:rolleyes:

McDougal wrote: »

Teachers in private schools are actually paid more than public ones.

Teachers in private schools can actually get fired for under preforming, unlike public sector teachers. Also the public sector teacher has a nice big fat pension at the end when they have served their time. Job security and pension more than make up for the difference in pay

McDougal wrote: »

The reason wages in the private sector are lower on avarage is because the private sector includes the sh1te "McJobs".

There are many low skilled jobs in the public sector as well, just this is not reflected in the pay.

McDougal

Drumpot wrote: »

Rehhhheaallllly ? I think you take the public service union rhetoric far too seriously . .

I worked in the financial services industry for two banks and an insurance company and never earned more then 25k (after 7 years of hard work). I have a management degree, a stockbroking diploma and am a qualified financial advisor . .

I knew hundreds of people working in offices that dreamt of getting any job in the public service . .

A myth that public service unions love to spew out is that everybody in the private sector made millions when the times were good. . I know people who openly admit to getting into the public service (even in good times) for job security and because pressure is less. Add the pension (that nobody seems to value) and the true value of a public service job in all area's is far more difficult to qualify . . Of course this suits the unions who can pick numbers out of their asses when they like, ignore objective debate and discredit "perks" that private employees do not enjoy . .

When I heard the nurses union turn their nose up at 32k as if its breadline salary, it made me sick and wonder what world some sections of society are living in ! ! !

Your inability to either read or discuss the data that welease posted and your so far heresay statistics on public servants are just an example of Union tactics of avoiding objective, clear debate on this topic, in favour of populist comments that really just wag the dog to take the focus off true progressive debate. ..

Jeez no one asked for your life story:rolleyes:

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Jeez no one asked for your life story:rolleyes:

He was entertaining us, so you could take the time to go off and educate yourself on the subject you were posting on...

Are you going to debate anything on this thread (with links and data) or is this just an account to derail and throw random insults around?

Head The Wall

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are many low skilled people with highly paid jobs in the public sector as well, just this is not reflected in the pay.

Fixed that for you

Diarmuid

McDougal wrote: »

On average public sector workers are more qualified and skilled than private sector ones.

So presumable they are not "ordinary workers" then?

Head The Wall

deise blue wrote: »

You are simply deluding yourself , the Croke Park deal is in situ.

No pay cuts or pension reform discussions until 2014.

Savings to be made via direct/indirect taxation and spending cuts.

You may console yourself that the C P deal can still facilitate pay cuts and pension reform prior to 2014 but every Irish economist worth his salt gas already conceded that this simply won't happen .

I look forward to resuming this discussion in mid 2014

Yes the croke park deal is in place, but only as long as we meet our financial targets.

You may not be aware but we are far from out of the recession and tax revenues are down.

Unemployment is still increasing so while PS pay is not increasing for everyone (increments or you like to refer to it as a contractual agreement pffft) employment levels are remaining static but we have had to pay lump sums and pensions to 10,000 retirees.

The costs of running the country are increasing. All these things will affect us meeting our budgetary targets.

You are of the opinion that the CP deal is signed so the problem is solved. Wasn't the last wage agreement signed as well and look what happened that, it was scrapped and the PS got a pay cut. There's a precedent there and it can happen again so take your head out of the sand.

deise blue

What this Government craves is a prolonged period of industrial relations stability.

To achieve this they will adhere to the C P agreement and will achieve budgetary targets by spending cuts and direct/indirect taxation.

Head The Wall

I'm not doubting that they would prefer no industrial action but the reality is that the fiscal measures may not work out as expected. There's only so much slashing and taxation that can be done. We have to get our GDP deficit to 3% by 2014, I for one can see a problem here as they are predicting it will be around 20% by year end

murphaph

deise blue wrote: »

You are simply deluding yourself , the Croke Park deal is in situ.

No pay cuts or pension reform discussions until 2014.

Savings to be made via direct/indirect taxation and spending cuts.

You may console yourself that the C P deal can still facilitate pay cuts and pension reform prior to 2014 but every Irish economist worth his salt gas already conceded that this simply won't happen .

I look forward to resuming this discussion in mid 2014

You might be one of the few left in Ireland at that stage. Don't forget to turn off the lights (if the Electricians Union of Ireland allows that) before you leave.

Country is going down the sh!tter faster than nobody's business and you're delighted about it, or so it would seem. WE NEED TO START MAKING BIG SAVINGS!

Head The Wall

He must be a politician, who else thinks things are going perfectly to plan. There's nobody that stupid or is there. Maybe it's Martin Cullen, retired TD from Waterford

WalterMitty

Public servants seem to forget that its the rest of the workers and taxpayers that ultimately carry them as they are net drain on exchequer. They use their organised power to extort above market rates from weak governments and unirganised private sector workers. They effectively screw their fellow workers in the private sector to ensure they get more of the national income pie than their skills and abilities justify. Roll on the IMF/ECB intervention.

Brussels Sprout

Drumpot wrote: »

I worked in the financial services industry for two banks and an insurance company and never earned more then 25k (after 7 years of hard work). I have a management degree, a stockbroking diploma and am a qualified financial advisor . .

Wow that's amazing. May I ask what type of work you were doing?

murphaph

A couple of mates of mine worked in insurance, never made more than 25k either. Quite common in the financial sector I would say.

highgiant1985

typo.

highgiant1985

McDougal wrote: »

Eh it's a proven fact that a higher % of workers in the public sector have degrees. What are are you basing your nonsense comment on, the opinions of some deluded hack in the Sunday Independent?

Things are not black or white, just because they have a higher % of workers with degrees should not mean they should be paid more and also does not mean they are more qualified than private sector workers.

How relevant are the degrees to the jobs they though do and do the positions they work as require the degree in the first place. There are alot of things which need to be considered.

Head The Wall

Porters earning nearly 30K for shuffling patients is an easier job than McDonalds staff having to remember orders.

WalterMitty

Head The Wall wrote: »

Porters earning nearly 30K for shuffling patients is an easier job than McDonalds staff having to remember orders.

Yeah and they think theya re worth it and shouldnt be cut at all! Thats why this country is mad and bound to need ECB/IMF drastic cuts as the unions defend this crap. Youd get 20k or less and no gold plated pension and no job for life in the private sector for job that pays 30k in public sector. Again public sector workers whether they know it or not screw private sector workers to ensure they get a bigger slice of pie relative to their skills and abilities.

danbohan

murphaph wrote: »

A couple of mates of mine worked in insurance, never made more than 25k either. Quite common in the financial sector I would say.

lot people are not suited to a sales career no matter what their qualifications are , should not take too long to realise that . if you are earning under 25k in sales in a tough industry your no good at it , get out n stay out .

Head The Wall

Who said it was sales related?

McDougal

WalterMitty wrote: »

Yeah and they think theya re worth it and shouldnt be cut at all! Thats why this country is mad and bound to need ECB/IMF drastic cuts as the unions defend this crap. Youd get 20k or less and no gold plated pension and no job for life in the private sector for job that pays 30k in public sector. Again public sector workers whether they know it or not screw private sector workers to ensure they get a bigger slice of pie relative to their skills and abilities.

So we should cut wages and condition in the public sector to McDonalds levels? Since when did McDonalds become the benchmark? It's a disgusting establishment

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

So we should cut wages and condition in the public sector to McDonalds levels? Since when did McDonalds become the benchmark? It's a disgusting establishment

I thought you were fighting for the rights of the "ordinary" worker..
People who work in fast food outlets not good enough for you?

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

I thought you were fighting for the rights of the "ordinary" worker..
People who work in fast food outlets not good enough for you?

How would it help fast food workers by sacking a bunch of hospital porters. McDonalds workers should be paid more and have pensions.

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

How would it help fast food workers by sacking a bunch of hospital porters. McDonalds workers should be paid more and have pensions.

Who said anything about sacking?

And how much more should they be paid.. and what type of pensions?

irishh_bob

McDougal wrote: »

How would it help fast food workers by sacking a bunch of hospital porters. McDonalds workers should be paid more and have pensions.

sacking public sector workers ( including porters ) reduces the tax burden on private sector workers ,

as for mc donalds workers and pay and pensions , mom and apple pie stuff