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65 Years Since Hiroshima Nuked

  • 06-08-2010 01:37AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭


    65 Years since little boy was dropped on Hiroshima.

    Quickening the end of the war in the Pacific.

    90,000 dead within hours, 166,000 dead within months.
    Tagged:


«13456712

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    old_aussie wrote: »
    65 Years since little boy was dropped on Hiroshima.

    Quickening the end of the war in the Pacific.

    90,000 dead within hours, 166,000 dead within months.

    Eh, is the tone of your post deliberately jaunty or does it just come across that way?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    No,

    I just saw "On This Day" on our local TV channel.

    Hiroshima seems like it was not so long ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I taught the mass murder of civilians was wrong, and the whole quickening the end of the world seems to have been an excuse the Allies used to kill a whole bunch of civilians to show off there new super weapon to the Russians.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    One of a pair of the most despicable unpunished war crimes ever carried out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    wes wrote: »
    I taught the mass murder of civilians was wrong, and the whole quickening the end of the world seems to have been an excuse the Allies used to kill a whole bunch of civilians to show off there new super weapon to the Russians.

    That and the allies were facing the prospect of millions of their soldiers dying if they landed in Japan in a war started by Japan. Also how many would have died and/or lived in misery if the Russians invaded (and then setup an iron curtain ala germany) we would never know?

    Allied losses on outlying islands which were nothing more than pieces of rock sticking out water in some cases exceeded Japanese casualties, who were fighting to death on orders of their godly emperor.

    I think anyone who judges the allies for dropping those bombs should really consider the context and the time in history involved (allied bombing of Germany killed more people, and then the Nazis killed close to 25 million Russians like cattle) before judging too harshly the actions taken.

    It says alot about state brainwashing and control of people when the only action to bring and end to a bloody war is using nuclear weapons.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    That and the allies were facing the prospect of millions of their soldiers dying if they landed in Japan in a war started by Japan. Also how many would have died and/or lived in misery if the Russians invaded (and then setup an iron curtain ala germany) we would never know?

    Allied losses on outlying islands which were nothing more than pieces of rock sticking out water in some cases exceeded Japanese casualties, who were fighting to death on orders of their godly emperor.

    I think anyone who judges the allies for dropping those bombs should really consider the context and the time in history involved (allied bombing of Germany killed more people, and then the Nazis killed close to 25 million Russians like cattle) before judging too harshly the actions taken.

    It says alot about state brainwashing and control of people when the only action to bring and end to a bloody war is using nuclear weapons.

    No matter what heinous act carried out by whomever, there will always be some who seek to justify it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    karma_ wrote: »
    No matter what heinous act carried out by whomever, there will always be some who seek to justify it.

    I am not seeking to justify it for gods sake :mad:

    I am reminding people to get of their high horses and consider the context, events and geopolitics of that stage of the war
    :rolleyes:

    And more importantly the events and actions that lead up to this event

    There is nothing worse than people discussing and judging history without painting the complete picture


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    karma_ wrote: »
    No matter what heinous act carried out by whomever, there will always be some who seek to justify it.

    Like the tens of thousands slaughtered by the Japanese in China?

    I'm just grateful that we could never understand the context in which those bombs were dropped.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Like the tens of thousands slaughtered by the Japanese in China?

    I'm just grateful that we could never understand the context in which those bombs were dropped.

    More justification. The Japanese actions in China were some of teh most horrific incidents I have ever read about, I would never attempt to justify anything of the sort. However, what has that got to do with dropping an atomic weapon on a civilian target?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    That and the allies were facing the prospect of millions of their soldiers dying if they landed in Japan in a war started by Japan. Also how many would have died and/or lived in misery if the Russians invaded (and then setup an iron curtain ala germany) we would never know?

    Allied losses on outlying islands which were nothing more than pieces of rock sticking out water in some cases exceeded Japanese casualties, who were fighting to death on orders of their godly emperor.

    The winners of a war coming with an excuse for there own atrocities, and writing the history to suit themselves.....
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    I think anyone who judges the allies for dropping those bombs should really consider the context and the time in history involved (allied bombing of Germany killed more people, and then the Nazis killed close to 25 million Russians like cattle) before judging too harshly the actions taken.

    Sorry, but the whole, the other guy did stuff that was far worse is really no excuse. I think everyone is well aware of what the other side did, and they were rightly punished for there crimes.
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    It says alot about state brainwashing and control of people when the only action to bring and end to a bloody war is using nuclear weapons.

    Just because the guys who used that weapon saying it was needed, does not make it true.

    I am well aware of the context of the time, and I am also well aware that the victors have a habit of white washing there own crimes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭derfderf


    karma_ wrote: »
    No matter what heinous act carried out by whomever, there will always be some who seek to justify it.

    If u were US president at the time would u risks the lives of hundreds of thousands of your own soldiers (many of whom were just normal civilians drafted because of the war) to save the lives of the citizens of an enemy country that actually started the war?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    derfderf wrote: »
    If u were US president at the time would u risks the lives of hundreds of thousands of your own soldiers to save the lives of the citizens of an enemy country that actually started the war?

    I hate the tired old argument about a land invasion of Japan if teh bombs were never dropped, this is nonsense, the war was already won and a land invasion would not have been necessary.

    Lets also see who else thought teh dropping of teh bombs were unnecessary;

    Dwight Eisenhower

    "...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."


    Admiral Leahy

    "It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

    "The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."


    Herbert Hoover

    "...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945...up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs."


    Douglas MacArthur

    "When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor."


    Albert Einstein

    "Prof. Albert Einstein... said that he was sure that President Roosevelt would have forbidden the atomic bombing of Hiroshima had he been alive and that it was probably carried out to end the Pacific war before Russia could participate."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    karma_ wrote: »
    One of a pair of the most despicable unpunished war crimes ever carried out.

    I think it's important to remember that it was the Japanese initiated hostilities against the US, through the bombing of Pearl Harbour. After this, the American goal was to defeat the Japanese in a war they didnt want, with as few casualties as possible...

    The militarists in Japan had many opportunities to surrender. The war was effectively over when they lost the Philipinnes and the Marianas, but they continued to fight on. If the people in Japan want somebody to blame they need to blame the militarist in their own country who drove the war in China and the Pacific. Without them, there would have been no dropping of the bombs.

    In the long run dropping the two atomic bombs saved an estimated million lives on both sides that would have been lost if the home islands had been invaded..


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    I think it's important to remember that it was the Japanese initiated hostilities against the US, through the bombing of Pearl Harbour. After this, the American goal was to defeat the Japanese in a war they didnt want, with as few casualties as possible...

    The militarists in Japan had many opportunities to surrender. The war was effectively over when they lost the Philipinnes and the Marianas, but they continued to fight on. If the people in Japan want somebody to blame they need to blame the militarist in their own country who drove the war in China and the Pacific. Without them, there would have been no dropping of the bombs.

    In the long run dropping the two atomic bombs saved an estimated million lives on both sides that would have been lost if the home islands had been invaded..

    Did you even look at my last post?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    karma_ wrote: »
    Did you even look at my last post?

    Have you even looked at anyone elses?

    Operation Downfall (Olympic and Coronet) would have cost a huge amount of lives, Allied, Japanese, servicemen & civilian alike.

    It could quite possibly have resulted in the extinction of the japanese way of life. Yes dropping the bomb was a horrific act, but in the context of the time, it was the best of a number of bad options


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭derfderf


    The japanese were ordered to surrender unconditionally or their country would be left in ruin. They refused. After hiroshima they offered their own terms and it was refused. They were in no position to make demands to a country they bombed that wasn't even in the war at the time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭TouchingVirus


    karma_ wrote: »
    More justification. The Japanese actions in China were some of teh most horrific incidents I have ever read about, I would never attempt to justify anything of the sort. However, what has that got to do with dropping an atomic weapon on a civilian target?

    So how is it going over there in black-and-white land?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    gatecrash wrote: »
    Have you even looked at anyone elses?

    Operation Downfall (Olympic and Coronet) would have cost a huge amount of lives, Allied, Japanese, servicemen & civilian alike.

    It could quite possibly have resulted in the extinction of the japanese way of life. Yes dropping the bomb was a horrific act, but in the context of the time, it was the best of a number of bad options

    The horror stories just get worse, what started off as a lot of military personnel dying has morphed into the extinction of teh Japanese way of life. Utterly ridiculous.

    I'll Take the opinion of Messrs Eisenhower, Leahy, Hoover, MacArthur and Einstein over the opinions of a few posters on Boards I think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭donaghs


    The context is very important. If you oppose the dropping of the bomb, you should suggest an alternative course of action? A convential bomber raid on Tokyo actual killed more people than the Hiroshima bomb.

    The dropping of the bomb was a terrible act, and set a very bad precedent, but arguably saved far more lives of people in Japanese captivity, and under Japanese rule. As well as the constant Japanese atrocities in China, the Japanese had already begun killing, and planning to kill their Allied prisoners.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palawan#The_Palawan_Massacre

    From my reading, Japan at that point had made no serious attempt to surrender. Even after Hiroshima was nuked, what was the Japanese government reaction? Nothing. Within the government it stimulated more discussion on possible negotiated surrender, but no agreement could be reached on surrendering.

    It was the Russian suprise attack which arguably forced the Japanese to surrender. They were out of options then. Which leads me to the conclusion that they prepared to sacrifice their people to an Atomic bomb rather than surrender - just as they advised the people of Okinawa (civilians) to commit suicide rather than surrender to the Americans.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    donaghs wrote: »
    The context is very important. If you oppose the dropping of the bomb, you should suggest an alternative course of action? A convential bomber raid on Tokyo actual killed more people than the Hiroshima bomb.

    The dropping of the bomb was a terrible act, and set a very bad precedent, but arguably saved far more lives of people in Japanese captivity, and under Japanese rule. As well as the constant Japanese atrocities in China, the Japanese had already begun killing, and planning to kill their Allied prisoners.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palawan#The_Palawan_Massacre

    From my reading, Japan at that point had made no serious attempt to surrender. Even after Hiroshima was nuked, what was the Japanese government reaction? Nothing. Within the government it stimulated more discussion on possible negotiated surrender, but no agreement could be reached on surrendering.

    It was the Russian suprise attack which arguably forced the Japanese to surrender. They were out of options then. Which leads me to the conclusion that they prepared to sacrifice their people to an Atomic bomb rather than surrender - just as they advised the people of Okinawa (civilians) to commit suicide rather than surrender to the Americans.

    Context is important for sure, however when you post the opinions of some of the most influential figures from that period and what they thought of teh incident and it gets ignored and teh same tired old line is repeated time after time, you have to wonder if context is really what they mean.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭derfderf


    karma_ wrote: »
    I'll Take the opinion of Messrs Eisenhower, Leahy, Hoover, MacArthur and Einstein over the opinions of a few posters on Boards I think.

    You say that almost as if they were the only people in the know at the time whos opinion mattered.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    derfderf wrote: »
    You say that almost as if they were the only people in the know at the time whos opinion mattered.

    Of course they were not teh only people in the know, but they are some of teh most respected and well known. And their opinion has more validity than most.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭derfderf


    karma_ wrote: »
    Of course they were not teh only people in the know, but they are some of teh most respected and well known. And their opinion has more validity than most.

    More validity than those that decided to drop the bombs?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    karma_ wrote: »
    Did you even look at my last post?
    Did you even look at the time of my post? I was writing at the same time as you..

    The truth is the japanese did NOT surrender til the bombs were dropped... So any argument that "they were just about to surrender" dont make any sense... They were not prepared to give up the Emperor..


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    derfderf wrote: »
    More validity than those that decided to drop the bombs?

    Making a callous and barbaric decision does not make your opinion valid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 129 ✭✭Tootle


    karma_ wrote: »
    Context is important for sure, however when you post the opinions of some of the most influential figures from that period and what they thought of teh incident and it gets ignored and teh same tired old line is repeated time after time, you have to wonder if context is really what they mean.

    That is the opinion of influential people from the west. I've been to horishima and visited the peace museum. There is no condemnation of the Americans from the Japanese themselves. They tell the story factually. The treatment of their own people in Japan at the time was far from ideal. They admit to this. I'm not able to remember the exact details but the reason so many civilians were killed was that the Japanese made the people( men women and children) to rebuild damaged buildings etc caused by the war. Hense so many were outdoors at the time.
    The reason for the peace museum in Horishima is to educate people so that this atrocity would never happen again rather than condem anyone.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Did you even look at the time of my post? I was writing at the same time as you..

    The truth is the japanese did NOT surrender til the bombs were dropped... So any argument that "they were just about to surrender" dont make any sense... They were not prepared to give up the Emperor..

    Did they end up giving up the Emperor?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭derfderf


    karma_ wrote: »
    Making a callous and barbaric decision does not make your opinion valid.

    Most acts during the war were barbaric. The decision is whether the ends justify the means. You and the people you quoted think they didn't. Others did.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Tootle wrote: »
    That is the opinion of influential people from the west. I've been to horishima and visited the peace museum. There is no condemnation of the Americans from the Japanese themselves. They tell the story factually. The treatment of their own people in Japan at the time was far from ideal. They admit to this. I'm not able to remember the exact details but the reason so many civilians were killed was that the Japanese made the people( men women and children) to rebuild damaged buildings etc caused by the war. Hense so many were outdoors at the time.
    The reason for the peace museum in Horishima is to educate people so that this atrocity would never happen again rather than condem anyone.

    Only this morning I have read reports of some sections in Japan asking for teh US to apologise for dropping the bomb.

    Also how Japan treated her own citizens is really beside the point as It was the US who decided on this course of action and Japan did not decide to drop the bomb on itself.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    derfderf wrote: »
    Most acts during the war were barbaric. The decision is whether the ends justify the means. You and the people you quoted think they didn't. Others did.

    Maybe you would like to provide some information as to who these others were?


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