BAI - No commercial DTT until after ASO

The Cush

This from the BAI today

5th August 2010

BAI Statement on Conclusion of Commercial DTT Multiplex Licensing Process

At its most recent meeting, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (“BAI”) gave further detailed consideration to the prospects for commercial DTT in Ireland. It reiterated its disappointment that, having discharged its responsibilities under the 2009 Act, the outcome was that none of the three applicants had been able to bring matters to a satisfactory conclusion. It also decided that it would not be practicable to re-activate a commercial DTT multiplex licensing process in the immediate future.

In making this decision, the Authority took a number of factors into account, including;

• The prioritisation by the Government of the introduction of the Public Service Broadcasting (PSB) multiplex in the final quarter of 2010;
• The prevailing economic circumstances which had impacted on the proposed introduction of commercial DTT following the award of the original commercial DTT licenses in 2008;
• The outcome of a review and de-briefing exercise which it had undertaken with the consortia who took part in the first process. All three highlighted the economic circumstances and two made particular reference to the role of RTÉNL as the main contributing factors to the failure to achieve a successful outcome.

It is the considered view of the Authority that as part of the preparation for the successful launch of commercial DTT in the future, legislative change will be necessary to enable the Authority to have formal relationships with the applicants, as obtains at present, and with RTÉNL. This would enable it to engage formally with the provider of transmission services and to exercise or to invoke a statutory mediation process in the event of disagreement on the terms of the transmission arrangements between RTÉNL and any future successful applicant. The Authority will discuss this further with the Department.

The Authority now considers that it will not be feasible to introduce commercial DTT as originally intended until after Analogue Switch Off (ASO) at the earliest. The position will be reviewed towards the end of 2011 and the Authority may seek expressions of interest in the provision of commercial DTT at that point. A competition could potentially be held during 2012 with a view to commercial DTT being operational in 2013.

The Authority recognises the importance of a successful transition from Analogue to Digital transmission. It appreciates, also, the significance of the introduction of the PSB multiplex as the first step in this process. It welcomes the steps now being taken in this regard and will work closely with the Minister, the Department and other agencies to ensure that the interests of broadcasters and audiences are best served now and in the future.

The broadening of choice for viewers and the development of new sources of Irish originated content continue to be important priorities in the development of DTT in Ireland. The Authority will discuss with the Minister ways in which those objectives can most effectively be met within the context of the proposed PSB multiplex, pending the development of further commercial DTT possibilities.


Media Queries to:
Ciarán Kissane, BAI

http://www.bai.ie/about_news_art023.html

No plans for new DTT competition

Thursday, 5 August 2010 16:01

The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland has said it has no plans to set up a new competition for commercial digital terrestrial television in the immediate future.

The licensing process for commercial digital services ended earlier this year when the Easy TV consortium turned down talks with the BAI after two other groups had pulled out.

The BAI said it did not think it would be feasible to introduce commercial DTT until after the current analogue terrestrial television service is switched off, which is due to happen by the end of 2012.

AdvertisementThe BAI said it had reviewed the process with the three groups, and all highlighted the effect of the current economic circumstances on the prospects for a commercial service.

The authority also said two of the groups had referred to the failure to reach agreement with RTÉ's networks division RTÉNL on transmission facilities as a factor in their failure to go ahead with the process.

The BAI said that for a future competition to be successful there would have to be legislation to enable it to intervene in negotiations between any potential provider and RTÉNL.

Last week, plans were announced for the transfer to digital television when the analogue service is switched off.

RTÉ will build the replacement service at a cost of €70m.

The public service system will provide access to seven-nine television channels, including RTÉ channels, TV3 and TG4 and the national radio channels. It will provide on-screen programme information and a new digital teletext service.

Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0805/dtt.html

No commercial digital TV before 2013, says authority
LAURA SLATTERY

Fri, Aug 06, 2010

THE BROADCASTING Authority of Ireland (BAI) has ruled out introducing commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) until after analogue television services are switched off at the end of 2012.

The BAI said it would review possible dates for the launch of commercial DTT at the end of 2011, at which point it might seek fresh expressions of interest.

A competition could be held in 2012 with a view to commercial DTT coming onstream in 2013, it said. In a statement, the BAI also indicated that it intends to ask the Department of Communications to give it the power to mediate between future commercial DTT operators and RTÉ NL, which controls the transmission network.

The failure of the original commercial DTT licensing awards, which began in 2008, has been attributed to both the deteriorating economic climate and the failure of the first- and second-choice applicants to successfully conclude negotiations with RTÉ NL.

“Formal” relationships with future applicants and RTÉ NL would enable the BAI to “invoke a statutory mediation process in the event of disagreement on the terms of the transmission arrangements”, the BAI said yesterday.

The authority said it had “decided that it would not be practicable” to reactivate the licensing process “in the immediate future”. It cited economic circumstances and the need for legislative change.

The BAI also stressed it would concentrate on the successful introduction of the public service broadcasting DTT multiplex, which will replace analogue.

“The broadening of choice for viewers and the development of new sources of Irish-originated content continue to be important priorities in the development of DTT,” it said.

RTÉ plans to spend €70 million on the new public service DTT network, which will operate from 51 transmitter sites and provide coverage to 98 per cent of the population.

The remaining 2 per cent will be serviced by a new satellite service.

The switch from analogue to digital is designed to free up spectrum that can be used for broadband and mobile services.

Paul Donovan, chief executive of Eircom, said in May that the Eircom-led OneVision consortium – the second-placed applicant in the original commercial licensing process – “still exists” and would be willing to enter into negotiations with the BAI in the future.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0806/1224276310508.html

watty

Reality at last.

Well nearly...

A competition could potentially be held during 2012 with a view to commercial DTT being operational in 2013.

Stupidity.

two made particular reference to the role of RTÉNL as the main contributing factors to the failure to achieve a successful outcome.

If they believe that, then they are needing more therapy. RTÉNL is not the problem. Freesat, Sky, UPC and total lack of real indigenous PayTV content creators is the issue. 90% of the pay DTT Channels would have to be ones already free on satellite and the pay DTT market is about 5% to 10% of households as any DTT Pay TV can't compete with Sky or UPC that have over 80%.

scath

I respect you're view watty about the stupidity of Pay DTT. You may be right from a commercial point of view. But that said there may be a market there for someone like Sky for example to offer channels via aerial for those that just don't want satellite. It may be small and unfeasable. It does leave room also for UPC in the future. 2012 leaves time to see how market settles and how FTA DTT is doing.

Pity the legislation wasn't got right in allowing the BAI to regulate RTÉ NL in terms of tariff mediation. Enough time involved in drafting to overlook that. They may have been constrained by 2007 legislation but I think not, was 09 legislation at conclusion. So may need Broadcasting (Amendment) Act 2011.

MHEG-5 confirmed by RTÉ for Irish DTT:http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/08/04/mheg-confirmed-for-irish-market/

Sponge Bob

Thanks Cush, this is the right decision IMO. Removes uncertainty for the next year.

The position will be reviewed towards the end of 2011 and the Authority may seek expressions of interest in the provision of commercial DTT at that point.

watty

scath wrote: »

... there may be a market there for someone like Sky for example to offer channels via aerial for those that just don't want satellite. It may be small and unfeasable. It does leave room also for UPC in the future. 2012 leaves time to see how market settles and how FTA DTT is doing.

Pity the legislation wasn't got right in allowing the BAI to regulate RTÉ NL in terms of tariff mediation. Enough time involved in drafting to overlook that.

I agree totally about leaving it open for payTV after ASO. I said all along that's when to look at it. I think a Wholesale operator renting per channel space on a Mux is the way to go.

RTENL's tariffs have been independently looked at. That smacks of face-saving and power grab by BAI. The BAI are totally the wrong people to regulate RTENL. RTENL should however be completely separate from RTE, and not privatised. If it remains in State control and has no connection to RTE, who exactly, with what aims should regulate it?

Or are we saying the Commercial PayDTT should have had special treatment, a subsidy and no need of Bond etc. Remind me why Smart lost the 4th 3G licence?

scath

Yea, agree with u. It can't have special treatment as state aid doesn't allow it except for specific situations. As regards regulation, ComReg or the BAI and I did read that RTÉ brought in expert outside advisors to set independently assessed tariffs. They would have to be regulated and well the regulators are ComReg and the BAI. I suspect the BAI. These is why it may be better for ComReg to have a broadcasting section just like is going to happen with the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank of Ireland, brought back in under the overarching umbrella.

Sponge Bob

scath wrote: »

Yea, agree with u. It can't have special treatment as state aid doesn't allow it except for specific situations.

Funny enough the recent decision to go with satellite makes it more likely that RTENL can receive state aid. Essentially RTENL have stated that they intend to abandon 100 of their 150 analogue sites and use a sat instead. As these 100 sites are essential to Rural Broadband provision RTE could benefit from state aid in maintaining them for that reason.....despite their no longer being transmitters in 3 years.

scath

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Funny enough the recent decision to go with satellite makes it more likely that RTENL can receive state aid. Essentially RTENL have stated that they intend to abandon 100 of their 150 analogue sites and use a sat instead. As these 100 sites are essential to Rural Broadband provision RTE could benefit from state aid in maintaining them for that reason.....despite their no longer being transmitters in 3 years.

That is a valid point, RTÉ as broadband infrastructure provider and that is a specific situation.

The Cush

scath wrote: »

As regards regulation, ComReg or the BAI and I did read that RTÉ brought in expert outside advisors to set independently assessed tariffs. They would have to be regulated and well the regulators are ComReg and the BAI. I suspect the BAI. These is why it may be better for ComReg to have a broadcasting section just like is going to happen with the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank of Ireland, brought back in under the overarching umbrella.

Comreg has responsibility in this area - ComReg04122 Decision Notice D16/04-Wholesale Broadcasting Transmission Services Markets -SMP Obligations

watty

scath wrote: »

That is a valid point, RTÉ as broadband infrastructure provider and that is a specific situation.

Yes. RTENL can get state aid as long as it doesn't benefit RTE, TV3, TG4 or a DTT Pay TV to compete more with Sky/UPC.

They in theory ought to be able to have state aid for Digital Switch Over roll out of DTT sites for PSB mux as this is only replacing Analogue. (A payTV Mux could not get state aid as that is not a replacement but new competition).

They could have State aid to provide true Rural Fixed Wireless Broadband infrastructure (say minimum 10Mbps 10:1 contention) to resell to Airwire, Permnet, Ripplecom, Westnet, NWE, Digiweb etc..

Nearly 100 sites with ESB and Mast and many might have microwave links or fibre.

FREETV

watty wrote: »

Reality at last.

Well nearly...
Stupidity.


If they believe that, then they are needing more therapy. RTÉNL is not the problem. Freesat, Sky, UPC and total lack of real indigenous PayTV content creators is the issue. 90% of the pay DTT Channels would have to be ones already free on satellite and the pay DTT market is about 5% to 10% of households as any DTT Pay TV can't compete with Sky or UPC that have over 80%.

I cannot believe that they may be starting a competition for a pay tv commercial operator in a couple of years again. They must be dum and delirious to think that there will be enough customers for a commercial operator to ever even break even. The population is too low and by 2013, probably Sky will lose forty to fifty percent of their customers when Saorview is fully launched after Saorsat as a lot of Sky customers here want/ wanted a clear picture for our national stations or sports when they availed of their service. With FTA sat, FREESAT, SAORSAT. Saorview Sky will no longer be needed as I believe that most Irish people apart from sports nuts will not want bills for anymore pay tv services when they find out that they can receive hundreds of channels free in English and RTE will be showing more sport in the future in HD. By 2013 the price of combi FREESATHD/FREEVIEWHD stbs AND idtvs will BE HALF THE PRICE THEY ARE NOW so why bother wasting hard earned money on SKY or UPC when I never watched the premier stations when I had UPC as they are full of rubbish content. It is all about greed! We should have free broadband next! The people in Finland will have it.

ftakeith

FREETV wrote: »

I cannot believe that they may be starting a competition for a pay tv commercial operator in a couple of years again. They must be dum and delirious to think that there will be enough customers for a commercial operator to ever even break even. The population is too low and by 2013, probably Sky will lose forty to fifty percent of their customers when Saorview is fully launched after Saorsat as a lot of Sky customers here want/ wanted a clear picture for our national stations or sports when they availed of their service. With FTA sat, FREESAT, SAORSAT. Saorview Sky will no longer be needed as I believe that most Irish people apart from sports nuts will not want bills for anymore pay tv services when they find out that they can receive hundreds of channels free in English and RTE will be showing more sport in the future in HD. By 2013 the price of combi FREESATHD/FREEVIEWHD stbs AND idtvs will BE HALF THE PRICE THEY ARE NOW so why bother wasting hard earned money on SKY or UPC when I never watched the premier stations when I had UPC as they are full of rubbish content. It is all about greed! We should have free broadband next! The people in Finland will have it.

I predict a very light version of pay tv on dtt like the Uk's top up tv from 2013 mainly for skyone, sky sports 1 & 2, ESPN and maybe sky premier from 2013

Rick_

What? Launch has been put back? Again...? I'm totally shocked... :rolleyes:

Macy0161

Handy excuse to blame RTENL, and absolve themselves of any blame.

The only caveat I'd put in is that their hands were probably tied by the "Competition/ Commercial is always good" ideology of recent Governments, including the current one. Regulators (in all sectors) only implement what they're told to and follow the Government line. How many years ago would we have had DTT if it had always been about the PSB mux?

medoc

Hi all,
What's the position of the "Minister's memorandum of understanding to provide BBC on a paid for basis" now that there will be no commercial operator until ASO. Also is there any chance that RTE will get its second Mux now instead of waiting until after ASO. It would allow HD to be provided on RTE1 and 2 without affecting other rte services and allow RTE Children/Euronews etc to be 24 hours.

watty

The GFA BBC in Ireland is meaningless fudge. An MOU is not binding and is just to give the masses the idea something is being done. There NEVER has been any barrier to having BBC NI country wide as long as someone pays the small royalties and pays the distribution costs. The GFA/MOU is meaningless for BBC as MMDS, Cable and Sky cover over 80% of households with UK TV via subscription anyway and anyone can get the BBC, ITV, C4 and Five for free with a dish. So yes, BBC on DTT would have to be a pay service, but it's hardly likely financially viable as it has to be paid for entire country even though only 5% to 10% of people would subscribe. The GFA/MOU doesn't obligate the Government here, or BBC or Government in North to pay for BBC terrestrially. That's up to private enterprise and always was.

We'll see if I'm right in 2013 to 2015.

RTE is getting the 2nd Mux during 2011 and complete during 2012, RTE2 starts as HD part time and after 2nd mux is on all 51 sites (mid 2012?) then RTE1 and RTE2 will have much more HD.

That's why the Neotion CAM converter and Sagem Picnic are obsolete (neither of them can do HD at all, ever). Even if you don't have an HDTV, you need a setbox that does HD, it will down-convert for SCART. There is not spectrum/capacity for simulcast of SD and HD. During RTE2 HD "lite" moments (some sport from Nov 2010) an SD only device such as Neotion or Picnic will give a back or blue screen or error message.

The Cush

medoc wrote: »

What's the position of the "Minister's memorandum of understanding to provide BBC on a paid for basis" now that there will be no commercial operator until ASO. Also is there any chance that RTE will get its second Mux now instead of waiting until after ASO.

The Minister didn't mention the MoU in the Dept's recent press release but RTÉ will not be carrying them as they are already available on Freesat. The Minister did say the network will provide significant coverage throughout Northern Ireland and so meeting one of the MoU's intentions.
The second multiplex will probably not be available until the revised DTT frequency plan is complete but RTÉ expects it to match Mux 1 coverage by Q3 2013, the equipment cost for a 51 site second multiplex may also be a factor.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan: People are under the impression that they will be able to receive every channel because there are two multiplexes. What channels will be available under the proposals outlined by Mr. Hayes? Will these be the eight or nine channels listed here? Will the UK channels be available?

Mr. Conor Hayes: The UK channels are available under an approach called Freesat, which is broadcast by a company owned by the BBC and ITV. They broadcast these channels in the clear over Ireland using a wide-band satellite operating in the KU band. RTE’s satellite option is a narrow-band satellite operating in the Ka band. One cannot get them on the same satellite. In the US, there are hybrid dishes available and householders can receive Ka band and Ku band signals. That is technically feasible and there are some 22 million households in the US using it. The cost of the dish is approximately $65.

...
Deputy Noel J. Coonan: Will people have to get a box for Sky and a box for the UK channels? These are not readily available. People are under the impression they can do this once they switch over.

Mr. Conor Hayes: If people want to stay with Sky and keep paying money, one does not need anything else. The alternative we are providing does not involve pay-TV.

Chairman: The Deputy’s question is whether one can get BBC and ITV.

Mr. Conor Hayes: If one has a satellite.

Chairman: What about the new regime?

Mr. Conor Hayes: We have no plans, but Mr. Collins will discuss the matter. Under the previous system and if there was pay television, UK channels would be delivered to

---

STB

watty wrote: »

The GFA BBC in Ireland is meaningless fudge. An MOU is not binding and is just to give the masses the idea something is being done. There NEVER has been any barrier to having BBC NI country wide as long as someone pays the small royalties and pays the distribution costs. The GFA/MOU is meaningless for BBC as MMDS, Cable and Sky cover over 80% of households with UK TV via subscription anyway and anyone can get the BBC, ITV, C4 and Five for free with a dish. So yes, BBC on DTT would have to be a pay service, but it's hardly likely financially viable as it has to be paid for entire country even though only 5% to 10% of people would subscribe. The GFA/MOU doesn't obligate the Government here, or BBC or Government in North to pay for BBC terrestrially. That's up to private enterprise and always was.

We'll see if I'm right in 2013 to 2015.

Anything is possible!

Dont forget RTE and Tg4 will be available in NI very soon.

watty

RTE & TG4 are on Sky and Virgin Media in N.I. (Pay TV)
About 70% can receive Analogue RTE & TG4 via aerial (Free)

There is a low power Analogue TG4 on Blackmountain. Who is paying for that?

Who will pay for RTE and TG4 on DTT in N.I.?

The BBC Charter forbids them to pay for coverage outside N.I. and rest of UK. BBC carried in Ireland & Netherlands is paid for by the Cable companies.

The Cush

This from today's Irish Times, Eircom still blaming RTÉ for their failure to secure the commercial licence.

Donovan still rues lost opportunity of DTT
Fri, Oct 01, 2010

EIRCOM CHIEF executive Paul Donovan this week launched eMobile, allowing it to offer a triple play of mobile, fixed-line and broadband to customers.

But Donovan still regrets the one that got away – digital terrestrial television (DTT).

Eircom led a consortium that wanted to operate a commercial DTT multiplex when the analogue signal is switched off in a couple of years. But it pulled the plug earlier this year after failing to agree a deal with RTÉ for use of its network. RTÉ will run the terrestrial DTT service.

“I was very disappointed because we had a strong consortium with a very clear view on how we would exploit the DTT opportunity,” Donovan told me.

“Unfortunately we were dealing with a somewhat flawed set up, which meant that the process could be held hostage by RTÉ.

“The BAI [Broadcasting Authority of Ireland] lacks any ability to direct the network provider to work together with other partners.”

Donovan described it as a “lost opportunity for Ireland”.

“It’s too late now for [commercial] DTT,” he explained. “The analogue switch off presented the real opportunity to penetrate households.”

How much did RTÉ want? “Too much. It was too much.”

Donovan also explained why Eircom ended its sponsorship of the Irish soccer team.

“Because it was tired. And because the Football Association of Ireland failed to demonstrate that they had a value proposition that would justify me spending €2 million a year putting my name on the shirt.”

Would he have changed his decision if Ireland had qualified for the World Cup? “No, only if Ireland had won.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1001/1224280080300.html

Apogee

Eircom complaining about the costs involved in accessing someone else's telecoms network - pot, kettle, black.

scath

The Cush wrote: »

This from today's Irish Times, Eircom still blaming RTÉ for their failure to secure the commercial licence.

Its seems to me from the media quotations of the BAI that they seem to agree with Eircom that RTÉ NL were the party not playing ball. We can argue the merits of that apparent position or not.

The BAI regulates RTÉ and therefor by definition they should be empowered to regulate RTÉ NL, its subsidiary. I don't understand why it is that they are not legally able to direct RTÉ NL to accept and impose their dictat one's they back it up as to why they differ in their analysis of carriage costs from RTÉ NL's. The BAI are apparently seeming to claim they have no docking mechanism with RTÉ NL. But they regulate RTÉ and thus by definition regulate RTÉ NL its subsidiary.

I don't know, is the legislation then watered down regulatory powers or what & given the length of time they had to put together the Broadcasting Act 2009 together, how did that occur? If its legislative weakeness as the BAI appear to claim then how did the Dept not forsee that? And when are they going to fix it with an amendment? The BAI hope by mid next year..

Sam Russell

If eircom were that determined to blame RTENL, why has it taken 6 months for them to say so, when it took twelve months for them to realise that agreement was impossible. From rumours, it would seem that RTENL wanted a €20 million bond - not a very expensive proposition for a large well funded multinational.

Remind me, aren't Eircom the ones a few years back that brought legal proceedings against anyone who attempted to get them to agree to opening up their network to competition, and consequently twarted any attempts at any form of competition? Did they not do for Smart Telecom's attempt to launch a mobile network? And have we not got the highest telephone line rental in Europe? Is the current lack of true broadband in Ireland down to Eircom's lack of investment?

Oh, yea, that Eircom.

watty

It's nonsense anyway (already discussed to death).
The €20M bond (not a cash deposit) would cost any sensible company about €100K a year. RTE NL was prepared to negotiate on that. Marketing, Card Management/Encryption/Call Centre and Pay TV box install subsidy would dwarf the reasonable €8M a year carriage costs. DTT is far more expensive than raw Satellite bandwidth (most of 3rd party costs with Sky Carriage are EPG and Encryption).

The winner of licence wasn't paying for Network Rollout. RTE NL was and that would have been €120M maybe or more for 3 x PayTV mux at 53 sites.

The Licence winner was not obliged to use RTE NL. RTE NL rent mast space to Local Radio, Mobile Radio, Wireless Broadband and others. Or you build your own masts. Or Rent ESB masts. 340 sites and many as good as RTE for TV.

The fact is that Irish Pay DTT is not viable competition to Sky/UPC who are at payTV saturation and can have no compelling exclusive content. Irish Indigenous PayTV consists (barely?) of Setanta and TV3e, neither of which would commit suicide by being on 5% of households instead of 80% currently. Irish payTV as envisaged by BAI isn't viable period.

watty

ESB have one of the biggest Microwave link networks in Ireland. Lots of really big masts on Mountains.

Other big Microwave link operators are Digiweb, Eircom and BT.

Masts used for Microwave links are Threefold (eircom sold most of theirs), ESB, RTE NL, (maybe some BT/CIE?) and some smaller site owners, not sure who bought Cellcom's masts.

Masts for Mobile Phone or mobile Broadband rollout is a bigger issue as a nation wide network needs about 1,200 and most in Urban areas. Conversely the plan with DTT has variously been 140+, 90+, 53 and now 51 mast sites. It would not be a major issue for a payTV operator to rent space on 51 masts between all the existing mast sites.
Currently
RTE NL operates about 170 sites.
ESB about 340
Threefold maybe 900 to 1300? Not sure. Most are unsuitable for DTT, though probably some are OK.

O2 and 3 have masts, again most are not suitable.
Most of Vodafone's may have been Eircom's (Eircell) and might be Threefold. Meteor and e.Mobile are of course Eircom, so most may be owned now by Threefold with many leased back. Most of these are unsuitable for DTT.

The Cush

Dáil question this week from Leo Varadkar to the Minister on the failed commercial DTT process. Recently discussed here in relation to the Bob Collins Sunday Business Post interview.

Telecommunications Services

1540. Deputy Leo Varadkar asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he is satisfied that the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland has adequate powers to enable it to secure a deal between RTENL and a company or consortium to provide a pay TV option for Digital Terrestrial Television users; his plans to amend the Broadcasting Act to enhance the powers of the BAI in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [33153/10]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): One of the main aims of the Broadcasting Act 2009 was to provide opportunities for the development of a commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) service in Ireland. In this regard, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI) was given the role of providing for commercial DTT service providers. In particular, the legislation made provision for the BAI to enter into contracts with commercial multiplex service providers to establish, maintain and operate a multiplex within the coverage area specified in the contract and for the term of the contract.

As the Deputy is aware, the competition initiated by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) in 2008 failed to produce a national commercial DTT service provider and this failure has been largely attributed to the economic downturn and the consequential impact that this had on the business cases of the applicants. The failure of the commercial DTT process was disappointing and it is now not expected that a commercial DTT operator will materialise until sometime after analogue switch off in 2012. As a result, consideration of the potential in this regard and of the most appropriate mechanisms for delivering this will be undertaken closer to that time.

In the meantime, the clear responsibility of my Department, in conjunction with the BAI, ComReg and other stakeholders, is to ensure the successful delivery of the ’free-to-air’ DTT service to the viewing public. I have directed that this be done by the autumn of 2012 to facilitate switch-off of the analogue system and the consequential digital dividend that will arise.

The Cush

Another Fine Gael question in the Dáil yesterday regarding the BAI and any future commercial DTT process

Broadcasting Services

65. Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he will enhance the powers of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland to allow them to force an agreement between RTE NL and commercial multiplex providers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37868/10]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): The Broadcasting Act 2009 made provision for the development of a commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) service in Ireland. In this regard, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI) was given the role of providing for commercial DTT service providers. In particular, Section 131 of the legislation provides the BAI with the function and associated powers to arrange for the establishment of commercial DTT multiplexes.

As the Deputy is aware, the competition initiated by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) in 2008 failed to produce a national commercial DTT service provider and this failure has been largely attributed to the economic downturn and the consequential impact that this had on the business cases of the applicants.

The failure of the commercial DTT process was disappointing and it is now not expected that a commercial DTT operator will materialise until sometime after analogue switch off in 2012. As a result, consideration of the potential in this regard and of the most appropriate mechanisms for delivering this will be undertaken closer to that time. I will consult with the BAI as to what action, legislation or otherwise, may be necessary in this regard.

In the meantime, the clear responsibility of my Department, in conjunction with the BAI, ComReg and other stakeholders, is to ensure the successful delivery of the ‘free-to-air’ DTT service to the viewing public. I have directed that this be done to facilitate switch-off of the analogue system by the end of 2012 and the consequential digital dividend that will arise.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20101020.XML&Page=1&Ex=2607#N2607

watty

So they will do nothing before 2012. Even then there will be a review. BAI is not automatically getting Draconian powers to force contracts regarded as unviable.

Legally they can't force RTE NL to take a Risk or sell below cost. The BAI can't have such power and RTE NL was nothing to do with the failure anyway. http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/irish-paytv-like-leprechaun-gold

FREETV

watty wrote: »

So they will do nothing before 2012. Even then there will be a review. BAI is not automatically getting Draconian powers to force contracts regarded as unviable.

Legally they can't force RTE NL to take a Risk or sell below cost. The BAI can't have such power and RTE NL was nothing to do with the failure anyway. http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/irish-paytv-like-leprechaun-gold

As I am sure that you will probably agree Watty, pay tv is not a runner here in Ireland and would fail dismally other than possibly a Top Up TV or TV Anytime type service addition to Irish DTT as there isn't a market here and there is already too much competion and proliferation with FTA, Freesat, SKY and UPC, Magnet etc and the costs of running commercial muxes too expensive to ever make any profit whatsoever. Clueless people and we wonder why Ireland is in such a mess at the moment. :mad: I think that more and more people in the country will ditch Sky and the far worse Tv provider UPC and go the FREESAT route with Saorview and Saorsat and probably both after December's budget as money will be tighter after the mess that the Government and bankers have caused.

rlogue

Maybe, provided they are prepared to put up with no Saorsat EPG on a Freesat box and get their heads around switching between Freesat and non-Freesat mode, put up a separate antenna for 9E and lose some of the PVR capability of the Freesat PVR box and of course live within the restricted footprint of Saorsat. Other than that it'll be a doddle.

watty

TVs will do Saorview natively and Saorview setbox under €50 by time Analogue is off. Only 2% to 5% need Saorsat.

Rick_

Yeah, of the Irish population maybe. There's be a hell of a bigger percentage looking to get it across the water!

lucernarian

watty wrote: »

TVs will do Saorview natively and Saorview setbox under €50 by time Analogue is off. Only 2% to 5% need Saorsat.

Random question for watty: How may one contact you privately? You don't accept PMs and I can't seem to join techtir.

Macy0161

rlogue wrote: »

Maybe, provided they are prepared to put up with no Saorsat EPG on a Freesat box and get their heads around switching between Freesat and non-Freesat mode, put up a separate antenna for 9E and lose some of the PVR capability of the Freesat PVR box and of course live within the restricted footprint of Saorsat. Other than that it'll be a doddle.

I'll test it over the weekend, but I'm pretty sure you can add non-freesat channels to the freesat channel list (albeit with only now & next epg for those channels) - i.e. you don't have to switch between freesat and non-freesat modes once you've added the channels to the channel list. Tests will confirm, but I think you're over complicating the day to day use.

Seperate dish and cable costs would be a once off payment/ installation.

Although a single channel list would be nice, there's plenty of us that manage at the moment switching between Freesat and Analogue Irish TV - why would a Freesat/ DTT be any worse? imo it's a lack of knowledge more than user friendly/ technical issues as to why FTA/ Freesat isn't more popular now.

watty

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Random question for watty: How may one contact you privately? You don't accept PMs and I can't seem to join techtir.

Check your Gmail spam

Anyone can join Techtir. Try not to use gmail, or else figure how gmail spam folder works...

You can also use the Registration Problem Form on Tectir. Select a suitable subject other than default "I'm a spammer"!
There is also a form on my own website... if you look hard.

I was getting too many questions on PM here from people too shy to post on thread.

rlogue

Paddy C wrote: »

Yeah, of the Irish population maybe. There's be a hell of a bigger percentage looking to get it across the water!

Yes, the elephant in the room that no one wants to admit exists.

rlogue

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'll test it over the weekend, but I'm pretty sure you can add non-freesat channels to the freesat channel list (albeit with only now & next epg for those channels) - i.e. you don't have to switch between freesat and non-freesat modes once you've added the channels to the channel list. Tests will confirm, but I think you're over complicating the day to day use.

Seperate dish and cable costs would be a once off payment/ installation.

Although a single channel list would be nice, there's plenty of us that manage at the moment switching between Freesat and Analogue Irish TV - why would a Freesat/ DTT be any worse? imo it's a lack of knowledge more than user friendly/ technical issues as to why FTA/ Freesat isn't more popular now.

More a lack of knowledge than anything else and I will freely admit that with some smart configuring of a HTPC you can easily achieve a combined Saorview/Freesat EPG on a PC.

However the reason I'm utterly opposed to the Saorsat proposition is that it shuts out those of us outside Ireland.

icdg

scath wrote: »

Pity the legislation wasn't got right in allowing the BAI to regulate RTÉ NL in terms of tariff mediation. Enough time involved in drafting to overlook that. They may have been constrained by 2007 legislation but I think not, was 09 legislation at conclusion. So may need Broadcasting (Amendment) Act 2011.

For better or worse, a concious decision was taken to keep RTÉNL out of the BAI's remit. Contrary to popular opinion, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland do not regulate broadcasting at all! They regulate content - the collection of programmes and advertisements that are supplied for broadcast are under the BAI's remit. But the actual process of how this collection of programmes and advertisements get from the gallary in the broadcaster concerned to the television in your house is under ComReg's remit.

The answer would of course have been to merge the BAI and ComReg. That this wasn't done while the two bodies were under seperate departments in the 1990s is obvious, but now that they are under the one department (DCMNR) is less so. I can't see the compelling argument not to do it and it would have made this situation more straightforward.

The Cush

icdg wrote: »

The answer would of course have been to merge the BAI and ComReg. That this wasn't done while the two bodies were under seperate departments in the 1990s is obvious, but now that they are under the one department (DCMNR) is less so. I can't see the compelling argument not to do it and it would have made this situation more straightforward.

That was proposed by the opposition during the Oireachtas Broadcasting Bill debates, look out for a new Broadcasting Amendment Bill in due course.

Deputy Simon Coveney: ...
I made a point during the debate on Second Stage, which Deputy McManus has carried forward more recently and in a far more proactive way than I have. The idea of having a single communications regulator that would also deal with broadcasting makes sense in Ireland and it is a pity it was not fully developed at a much earlier stage. This is something that will probably happen in time; ComReg will be the regulator for transmission and facilitation of media through broadband but will also manage content, similarly to the UK’s Ofcom. I welcome the fact that we have now moved away from having separate regulatory regimes for public and private sector broadcasting. It is important that we apply the same standards to RTE as to TV3 and others.

Apogee

Deputy Simon Coveney wrote:

I made a point during the debate on Second Stage, which Deputy McManus has carried forward more recently and in a far more proactive way than I have. The idea of having a single communications regulator that would also deal with broadcasting makes sense in Ireland and it is a pity it was not fully developed at a much earlier stage. This is something that will probably happen in time; ComReg will be the regulator for transmission and facilitation of media through broadband but will also manage content, similarly to the UK’s Ofcom. I welcome the fact that we have now moved away from having separate regulatory regimes for public and private sector broadcasting. It is important that we apply the same standards to RTE as to TV3 and others.

So they propose grouping all of the incompetence and ineffectuality in the one place? A sort of blackhole of concentrated uselessness.

watty

rlogue wrote: »

However the reason I'm utterly opposed to the Saorsat proposition is that it shuts out those of us outside Ireland.

I know that. And it has to be so. If it was a FTV card on 28.2 you'd only get it by lying about where you live and breaking T&C. Like people in England with Sky N.I. Postcodes or even Irish Sky Subs.

What is 5, 10, 20, 80 years overdue is an external service like Germany's DW TV and DW Radio.

Maybe after the Digital changeover is sorted "they" (who ever "they" are) will fund RTE International TV and Radio. I can't see it happening sooner. I'm 100% sympathetic to plight of people outside Ireland that want Irish Media. I lived abroad with whole family over a year and lived many months in England also.

I do think any RTE International TV ought to be available in S.A., North America, NZ & Aus and all of Europe. Maybe M.E. too. Not just UK.

Perhaps a two channel solution with free 24 news + some docs and Subscription for Sport + other Irish Programming. Funding jointly from RTE, TV3, TG4 and Dept of Foreign Affairs. Content for the FTA channel to be 10% TG4, 10% TV3 and 80% RTE. Or something like that.

The radio channel should not just be a feed of RTE1, but mix of content from all RTE's radio content, main local independent stations and the non-RTE national Radio.

Raidió Domhanda na hÉireann and Teilifíse Domhanda na hÉireann doesn't sound right
Raidió Idirnáisiúnta na hÉireann ? Teilifíse Idirnáisiúnta na hÉireann
Irish World TV and Irish World Radio ?

I don't think it should be RTE anything...

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

Maybe after the Digital changeover is sorted "they" (who ever "they" are) will fund RTE International TV and Radio.

All RTE radio is available FTA on 28.2 at the moment. RTE Radio 1, RTE FM 2, R na G, and RTE Lyric.

watty

Actually there are OTHER RTE radio stations. These are already on Saorview and will be on Saorsat.

RTE Radio 1, RTE FM 2, R na G, and RTE Lyric are not designed for an International, European or even UK audience. It's not "external" Broadcasting. It just doesn't need encrypted. Encryption costs money. RTE1 on LW can be picked up in most of UK. VHF-FM RTE Radio in parts of N.I., Cornwall, Wales, Devon and IOM more so than TV.

RTE1, RTE2, TV3 and TG4 are on 28.2E also. They are encrypted at Sky's expense because unlikle the Radio they MUST be encrypted.

My argument is that external Broadcasting to viewers and listeners outside Ireland should be done properly. That's not going to happen unless there is a separate broadcaster and funding. Unlike most PSB in most countries RTE has zero experience of doing this apart from "partnership" of Tara TV.

RTE Radio 1, RTE FM 2, R na G, and RTE Lyric on 28.2E and carriage of RTE 1 on LW and WRN and occasional special events on selected Short wave Transmitters and how Tara TV was turned of doesn't look good on CV for application of Job running Ireland's External Services.

We would be better contracting out to Deutsche Welle or BBC Enterprises.

Apogee

Or RTÉ do a deal with Sky whereby RTÉ provide Sky their HD content in return for Sky running a FTV card scheme free-of-charge. Sky could retain the HD content for subs only.

Although, if right was right, and RTÉ weren't so bloody supine, they would already have forced Sky to provide FTV card for the Irish terrestrial as recompense for carrying the current channels.

watty

In terms of FTV card Saorview copy on Sky:
Never happen. Sky will only do FTV in exchange for x10 more than Saorsat. Also problem of space. I don't belive there is space on 28.2 for an extra 50Mbps+ of content.

Would be bad if it did. Read Greg Dykes speech explaining why BBC left the FTV scheme. It wasn't just money. They never intended staying in it.

In terms of "RTE International", that has to be paid for somehow. Sky won't.

Apogee

watty wrote: »

In terms of FTV card Saorview copy on Sky:
Never happen.

ISTR several posts on here saying that RTÉ FTA on satellite would "never happen". Never is a long time.

watty wrote:

Sky will only do FTV in exchange for x10 more than Saorsat.

Says who? Given the choice between no RTÉ channels on Sky or providing a FTV card scheme FOC, which is in Sky's long term interests?

watty wrote:

Also problem of space. I don't belive there is space on 28.2 for an extra 50Mbps+ of content.

I can't see RTÉ requiring anything like 50Mbps of bandwidth anytime soon.

watty wrote:

Would be bad if it did. Read Greg Dykes speech explaining why BBC left the FTV scheme. It wasn't just money. They never intended staying in it.

That's Greg being flexible with the truth, acting as though Freesat was the 'masterplan' all along. Anyway, the situations of the BBC and RTÉ are not comparable.

watty

The two PSB mux is close to 50Mbps.

never extremely unlikely.

SRB

Apogee wrote: »

ISTR several posts on here saying that RTÉ FTA on satellite would "never happen". Never is a long time.

To be fair - it was RTÉ being FTA at 28.2 that posters were talking about and that's still not going to happen anytime soon....

Apogee

SRB wrote: »

To be fair - it was RTÉ being FTA at 28.2 that posters were talking about and that's still not going to happen anytime soon....

Primarily yes, but it would have applied to every other Ku band satellite as well. I think most would have seen the possibilty of RTÉ going FTA on Ka as far less likely than a FTV scheme via Sky.

Apogee

watty wrote: »

The two PSB mux is close to 50Mbps.

Given current climate, the second mux may be idle for quite some time. In any case, a shift to DVB-S2 would free up quite a bit of space on 28.2, as well as a progression to MPEG4 over time. And there are new sats in the pipeline for 28E.

watty wrote:

never extremely unlikely.

That's a matter of opinion. We already know they run the option of the €5 a month subscription.

Macy0161

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'll test it over the weekend, but I'm pretty sure you can add non-freesat channels to the freesat channel list (albeit with only now & next epg for those channels) - i.e. you don't have to switch between freesat and non-freesat modes once you've added the channels to the channel list.

Tested it over the weekend - on the cheapest Bush Freesat box (the £25 one!), there's a seperate FTA channel list - when you view the Freesat channel list it's one button to get the FTA list.

This model doesn't handle DiSEqC anyway, so not sure whether the HD models that do handle FTA channels and the channel lists differently.