Would you join Atheist Ireland?

Zombrex

I've wondered about AI for a while now.

On one hand I like the idea that Ireland actually has an atheist organization, given how strong the Catholic influence in the country has been over the years.

On the other hand AI seem a bit radical and reactionary.

Just wondering what other people's opinions are of the group are.

Turtwig

Nope.

I don't believe in God but that seems to be all I see in common between atheist groups. Why atheists should share anything more in common is beyond me.

Dades

No, I don't see the point.

Personally I don't have the time or the inclination to attend meetings, and I don't really know anyone involved. Better things to be doing with my €25, thanks!

A&A beers are as close to hanging with heathens as I want to get.

Herbal Deity

No, because they seem to do nothing besides bash religion for the sake of it, it's not a movement towards a more secular society, which I would consider joining.

Just look at the front page of atheist.ie. It's all very poorly written, reactionary piss taking and condescending, arrogant rhetoric. I understand religion is a load of crap, I don't need to be given countless examples of just why it is.

Beruthiel

Dades wrote: »

Better things to be doing with my €25, thanks!

They ask for money?
Forget that!

Rev Hellfire

If I want to join a knitting circle I'll just start knitting.

Ickle Magoo

Nope, there is no organisation that I agree with 100% of their ideas, ideals or opinions so there is little point in me paying for the privilege of merely sharing a lack of belief in a god and disagreeing on many points regarding what that means or should mean in real life.

PeterIanStaker

How do I change my vote to No? I'll keep my €25 - thats like putting money in the collection box to me!

note to self, read the other f**in posts!

magicbastarder

'so, what supernatural beings or deities do you believe in?'
'none, you?'
'pretty much the same. same time next week?'

Beruthiel

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If I want to join a knitting circle I'll just start knitting.

Heh.

Tim Robbins

Wicknight wrote: »

I've wondered about AI for a while now.

On one hand I like the idea that Ireland actually has an atheist organization, given how strong the Catholic influence in the country has been over the years.

On the other hand AI seem a bit radical and reactionary.

Just wondering what other people's opinions are of the group are.

I don't see what the point of Atheist Ireland is other than to play bad cop while the Humanist Association plays good cop. I think they could have been a bit more logical in the choice of name for their organisation and picked one that tied in with their objectives. They take an anti-religion stance and are quite active about it. Many atheists don't take this stance so they are being disingenious and inaccurate calling themselves Atheist Ireland as if they speak for all of us. I always find it a bit cringy when atheists laugh and sneer at religious people's bad logic and then engage in it themselves.

A better name would have Anti-Religion Ireland or Anti-Theist Ireland.

goingpostal

"I would never want to belong to any club that would have someone like me for a member." Guess who?

condra

goingpostal wrote: »

"I would never want to belong to any club that would have someone like me for a member." Guess who?

Jesus after a few goblets of vino?:D

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

On the other hand AI seem a bit radical and reactionary.

Just wondering what other people's opinions are of the group are.

I really don't see where you're getting "radical" from...

I haven't gotten around to joining yet, but have gone to the meet ups.
The people there are friendly and approachable.

And personally I was surprised at how much one of the fellas there had in common with me.
We both dabbled in the same obscure woo-woo before we became atheists.

Some of you guys should turn up to one of these things before declaring some of this stuff...

goingpostal

condra wrote: »

Jesus after a few goblets of vino?:D

Jesus can't drink wine anymore, it comes spraying out the hole in his side. He needs a good plumber. Don't get me started on his talking donkey.

Truley

I voted no because I didn't know anything about them, and having looked at the website I wont be changing my mind. It looks like a fifteen year old wrote it, and some of their 'news' stories are outright false. Wouldn't be my cup of tea anyway.

Michael Nugent

As chairperson of Atheist Ireland, I am happy to see this thread being initiated. Here is a brief overview of what we are and what we do.

We promote atheism and reason over superstition and supernaturalism, and we promote an ethical, secular society where the State does not support or finance or give special treatment to any religion. We also have social events where we get together informally for a few drinks and to get to know each other.

We’re a relatively new advocacy group, and we have been working so far on a combination of combatting the blasphemy law, working on our long-term goals and structure, and building relationships with other atheist groups internationally. We have experienced officers working on specific areas such as lobbying and education policy.

We are now in a position to campaign more proactively on the policies that we adopted at our second AGM, last month. Our major campaign will be promoting a secular state for a pluralist people. The priorities of this new campaign are:

• A secular Irish Constitution based on the Ireland of today not 1937

• Repeal the Irish blasphemy law that Islamic states are using at the UN

• A secular education system based on international human rights law

• A secular health system where religions do not decide the ethos of hospitals

• Encourage nonreligious people to state their lack of religion in the census

• Replace religious oaths in courts with neutral ones that do not prejudice juries

• Remove religious symbols from schools, hospitals and public buildings

• Stop daily prayers in the Oireachtas and remove the Angelus from RTE
• Religions should have to pay tax and comply with equality laws
• State staff and resources should not be used for religious purposes

We also adopted a Declaration on Religion in Public Life promoting personal freedoms, secular democracy, secular education and one law for all. This is based on a declaration passed in Copenhagen at last month’s European conference of Atheist Alliance International. Next year we will be hosting an international atheist conference in Dublin.

Alongside the campaign for a secular state for a pluralist people (which we hope will attract moderate religious people as well as atheists), we will be continuing to promote atheism and reason generally, including through taking part in debates and helping to set up atheist student groups.

Obviously, the more people who join Atheist Ireland, the more effective we will be in promoting these aims. Equally obviously, we need to charge a membership fee to enable us to function. The membership fee is only 25 euro if you are waged; if not you can join for 10 euro.

I am happy to answer any questions that might help you to decide whether or not to get involved.

alex73

Beruthiel wrote: »

They ask for money?
Forget that!

Yeap anybody involved in Relgion pays, Atheism is just another group of "Religious" people. Like all religious faiths they have a belief. But theirs is to not believe in God. But that does not exempt its members from paying.

strobe

alex73 wrote: »

Atheism is just another group of "Religious" people. Like all religious faiths they have a belief. But theirs is to not believe in God. But that does not exempt its members from paying.

alex73

• Remove religious symbols from schools, hospitals and public buildings

• Stop daily prayers in the Oireachtas and remove the Angelus from RTE

Michael, There is a long a noble religious tradition in Ireland. Religious symbols are part of our life, they are there as a challenge to our intellect. Are you so afraid of a Cross on a wall in a hospital. As firmly as you don't believe in God there are those who Firmly believe in his existence. Why kill hundreds of years of tradition?

I think its good society has moved on and we are not forced to worship. (like some muslim countries). But you should learn to respect history and not want to purge ireland of its religious symbols.

After all, lets be clear the Angelus is only 1 minute long...

goingpostal

alex73 wrote: »

Yeap anybody involved in Relgion pays, Atheism is just another group of "Religious" people. Like all religious faiths they have a belief. But theirs is to not believe in God. But that does not exempt its members from paying.

Would you care to elaborate on your thesis that a lack of belief in god or gods is the same as belief in god?

strobe

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I am happy to answer any questions that might help you to decide whether or not to get involved.

Ever think of calling yourselves "Secular Ireland" instead Michael?

Ickle Magoo

alex73 wrote: »

Yeap anybody involved in Relgion pays, Atheism is just another group of "Religious" people. Like all religious faiths they have a belief. But theirs is to not believe in God. But that does not exempt its members from paying.

It must have taken you hours to come up with such an original post...........

alex73

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It must have taken you hours to come up with such an original post...........

years...

Ickle Magoo

alex73 wrote: »

years...

Well if we're going for tired old clichés; not collecting stamps, exactly the same as collecting stamps, eh?

goingpostal

alex73 wrote: »

[/LIST]
Michael, There is a long a noble religious tradition in Ireland. Religious symbols are part of our life, they are there as a challenge to our intellect. Are you so afraid of a Cross on a wall in a hospital. As firmly as you don't believe in God there are those who Firmly believe in his existence. Why kill hundreds of years of tradition?

I think its good society has moved on and we are not forced to worship. (like some muslim countries). But you should learn to respect history and not want to purge ireland of its religious symbols.

After all, lets be clear the Angelus is only 1 minute long...

I'll support your right to have Catholic symbols in public places, when you support my right to have Flying Spaghetti Monster symbols alongside those Catholic symbols. Teach the controversy!!!

As to Catholic symbols, I don't find representations of fairytales about virgin births, water being turned into wine, dead people rising from the dead, talking donkeys, vicarious redemption through human sacrifice and men walking on water, very stimulating or challenging. I just find them false and pernicious.

alex73

goingpostal wrote: »

Would you care to elaborate on your thesis that a lack of belief in god or gods is the same as belief in god?

Its Human Nature or Polar Psychology, There is always an opposite group. The problem is that there becomes a point with all reason is blanked out and they only see their objective and are not open to anybody else's point of view.

There have always been those who have and have not believe in God. And there always will be. But I object to them sterilising our world to an extent that Religious belief has to be hidden. I respect Micheal Nugents Opinion, he is 100% entitled to it and society should respect him. But he should not look to change the majority opinion in society about religious symbols. After all more people belief that those who don't.

alex73

goingpostal wrote: »

I'll support your right to have Catholic symbols in public places, when you support my right to have Flying Spaghetti Monster symbols alongside those Catholic symbols. Teach the controversy!!!

As to Catholic symbols, I don't find representations of fairytales about virgin births, water being turned into wine, dead people rising from the dead, talking donkeys, vicarious redemption through human sacrifice and men walking on water, very stimulating or challenging. I just find them false and pernicious.

I was not talking about Catholic symbols... Not all believers are catholic...

condra

Michael Nugent wrote: »

As chairperson of Atheist Ireland, I am........

Hi Michael and welcome to boards. Why didn't you join sooner? It's great:p

I think the problem many atheists would have with an activist group of any sort is that the group might want to lobby for something which they personally oppose. I'm sure you've heard the cat herding analogy enough by now.

I was pleased that you outlined goals which would genuinely be common ground for most atheists.

I think divisive subjects such as abortion, immigration and burkas (see the thread here) might be better kept for internal debates and discussions, rather than policy, though I imagine you already take this approach.

Regarding the website itself,the functionality is great but I think you should hire a graphic designer to do 2 basic tasks.
1 - create a unique logo for the site
2 - create professional looking header images for the site and forum.

Best of luck,

Declan

Wacker

Dades wrote: »

A&A beers are as close to hanging with heathens as I want to get.

Speaking of which......:)

condra

alex73 wrote: »

I was not talking about Catholic symbols... Not all believers are catholic...

So we should have something like this up in every hospital and school in the country?



God. Why am I feeding the troll?

Can you hear me God? ..Why?

.. hello?

magicbastarder

alex73 wrote: »

But I object to them sterilising our world to an extent that Religious belief has to be hidden.

there's a difference between allowing/tolerating religion, and supporting religion. to be honest, i'd much prefer be in a hospital ward where other patients have their crucifixes or korans beside their bed than to see a religious ethos being displayed by the hospital itself.

alex73

magicbastarder wrote: »

there's a difference between allowing/tolerating religion, and supporting religion. to be honest, i'd much prefer be in a hospital ward where other patients have their crucifixes or korans beside their bed than to see a religious ethos being displayed by the hospital itself.

Why? Those symbols have been there for decades.. If I am in the middle east I see Muslim symbols everywhere, does not bother me at all, infact some are nice to look at..

magicbastarder

alex73 wrote: »

Why? Those symbols have been there for decades..

so? antiquity doesn't make them desirable.

ColmDawson

alex73 wrote: »

Why? Those symbols have been there for decades.. If I am in the middle east I see Muslim symbols everywhere, does not bother me at all, infact some are nice to look at..

Throughout history, there have been countless abhorrent/backward/ignorant/misguided views that people held for centuries. That they survived so long before being gladly cast aside by education and enlightenment did not grant them licence to continue surviving.

The argument from tradition, which you are employing, is fallacious.

Truley

condra wrote: »

So we should have something like this up in every hospital and school in the country?



God. Why am I feeding the troll?

Can you hear me God? ..Why?

.. hello?

The one at the bottom is kind of pretty :pac:

alex73

ColmDawson wrote: »

Throughout history, there have been countless abhorrent/backward/ignorant/misguided views that people held for centuries. That they survived so long before being gladly cast aside by education and enlightenment did not grant them licence to continue surviving.

The argument from tradition, which you are employing, is fallacious.

And so is your argument fallacious,

ColmDawson

alex73 wrote: »

And so is your argument fallacious,

I'll take that comma to be a question mark and reply "No, unlike yours, it isn't".

Michael Nugent

alex73 wrote: »

[/LIST]
Michael, There is a long a noble religious tradition in Ireland. Religious symbols are part of our life, they are there as a challenge to our intellect. Are you so afraid of a Cross on a wall in a hospital. As firmly as you don't believe in God there are those who Firmly believe in his existence. Why kill hundreds of years of tradition?

I think its good society has moved on and we are not forced to worship. (like some muslim countries). But you should learn to respect history and not want to purge ireland of its religious symbols.

After all, lets be clear the Angelus is only 1 minute long...

We’re not seeking to ban religious symbols from society, just from State buildings and institutions. Going back to our campaign theme, we want a secular State for a pluralist people. It’s an important distinction. In order for everybody to have the right to believe what they want about metaphysical notions, and to exercise those beliefs without interfering with the rights of others, the State must remain neutral on these matters.

This is not an extreme position. The European Court of Human Rights has already ruled that having crucifixes in classrooms violate the human rights of children and parents who do not have religious beliefs. Italy (where the case started) are currently appealing this decision.

The religious counter-argument is that removing the crucifixes is violating the human rights of children and parents who do have religious beliefs. That is not the case. To violate the human rights of religious children and parents, the schools would have to have signs on the wall stating that there are no gods.

We are seeking neither an atheist nor a religious environment, but a secular environment, in buildings owned, funded or operated by the State. Religious and nonreligious people alike can maintain and display whatever religious or nonreligious symbols they want to, as long as they are not interfering with the rights of other people.

Regarding the Angelus being just one minute long, it is the symbolic importance not the duration. Also, try purchasing one minute of prime-time advertising on RTE every day and see what it would cost you!

Truley

Michael Nugent wrote: »

We’re not seeking to ban religious symbols from society, just from State buildings and institutions. Going back to our campaign theme, we want a secular State for a pluralist people. It’s an important distinction. In order for everybody to have the right to believe what they want about metaphysical notions, and to exercise those beliefs without interfering with the rights of others, the State must remain neutral on these matters.

This is not an extreme position. The European Court of Human Rights has already ruled that having crucifixes in classrooms violate the human rights of children and parents who do not have religious beliefs. Italy (where the case started) are currently appealing this decision.

The religious counter-argument is that removing the crucifixes is violating the human rights of children and parents who do have religious beliefs. That is not the case. To violate the human rights of religious children and parents, the schools would have to have signs on the wall stating that there are no gods.

We are seeking neither an atheist nor a religious environment, but a secular environment, in buildings owned, funded or operated by the State. Religious and nonreligious people alike can maintain and display whatever religious or nonreligious symbols they want to, as long as they are not interfering with the rights of other people.

Regarding the Angelus being just one minute long, it is the symbolic importance not the duration. Also, try purchasing one minute of prime-time advertising on RTE every day and see what it would cost you!

Out of interest what is your official stance on personal religious symbols such as scarves, jewellery, chastity rings etc?

Michael Nugent

strobe wrote: »

Ever think of calling yourselves "Secular Ireland" instead Michael?

We had a lengthy debate on that. Ultimately we went with the name atheist for a combination of reasons, including but not limited to...

Because there was no public vehicle for people who choose to self-identify as atheists to do so under that label.

Because we are campaigning for two things: to promote atheism and reason over superstition and supernaturalism; and to promote an ethical and secular society.

Because the word atheism has a stigma for many people, and that stigma will only be dissipated by by atheists choosing to publicly self-identify as atheists when promoting reasonable ends.

We also encourage people to examine other like-minded groups, like the Humanist Association of Ireland, and to get involved in whatever combination of groups that they personally feel most comfortable with.

magicbastarder

Truley wrote: »

Out of interest what is your official stance on personal religious symbols such as scarves, jewellery, chastity rings etc?

he tried them, but it was just a phase he was going through.

alex73

Michael Nugent wrote: »

We’re not seeking to ban religious symbols from society, just from State buildings and institutions. Going back to our campaign theme, we want a secular State for a pluralist people. It’s an important distinction. In order for everybody to have the right to believe what they want about metaphysical notions, and to exercise those beliefs without interfering with the rights of others, the State must remain neutral on these matters.

This is not an extreme position. The European Court of Human Rights has already ruled that having crucifixes in classrooms violate the human rights of children and parents who do not have religious beliefs. Italy (where the case started) are currently appealing this decision.

The religious counter-argument is that removing the crucifixes is violating the human rights of children and parents who do have religious beliefs. That is not the case. To violate the human rights of religious children and parents, the schools would have to have signs on the wall stating that there are no gods.

We are seeking neither an atheist nor a religious environment, but a secular environment, in buildings owned, funded or operated by the State. Religious and nonreligious people alike can maintain and display whatever religious or nonreligious symbols they want to, as long as they are not interfering with the rights of other people.

Regarding the Angelus being just one minute long, it is the symbolic importance not the duration. Also, try purchasing one minute of prime-time advertising on RTE every day and see what it would cost you!

Its Crazy to want to remove a Cross from a Classroom because it violates the rights of non believers.. My kids went to a Muslim school totally permeated with Muslim teaching, Symbols... Does not change anything I as a parent was able to explain that is their history, but its not our belief. There should be a dialogue and not a purge of Symbols. lets face it, Ireland is Christian (Catholic/Protestant) we should be allowed to have the symbols of our faith and history.

Michael Nugent

Truley wrote: »

Out of interest what is your official stance on personal religious symbols such as scarves, jewellery, chastity rings etc?

That State employees should not display either religious or atheist symbols while they are working for the State.

Their role as State employees is to administer the government of the country in an impartial manner, not to promote either religion or atheism.

magicbastarder

Michael Nugent wrote: »

That State employees should not display either religious or atheist symbols while they are working for the State.

i'd probably look differently on that. i wouldn't have any concerns if the person behind the counter when i'm buying residential parking permits was wearing a cross around their neck. i'd obviously have more cause for concern if i was a woman exploring fertility options and my doctor was wearing the same.

Michael Nugent

alex73 wrote: »

Its Crazy to want to remove a Cross from a Classroom because it violates the rights of non believers.. My kids went to a Muslim school totally permeated with Muslim teaching, Symbols... Does not change anything I as a parent was able to explain that is their history, but its not our belief. There should be a dialogue and not a purge of Symbols. lets face it, Ireland is Christian (Catholic/Protestant) we should be allowed to have the symbols of our faith and history.

I can see why it can appear crazy from the perspective of seeing religious symbols as the default position. However, if you were starting from scratch and trying to design a classroom environment for the children of all citizens in a pluralist society where there is freedom of conscience and belief, you might come to a different conclusion.

The decision to remove the crucifixes was made by the European Court of Human Rights on the basis of international human rights law, based on treaties to which Ireland has subscribed. Italy is appealing the decision (actually, the appeal has been heard and the decision has yet to be announced) so we will see what emerges from that.

Michael Nugent

alex73 wrote: »

There have always been those who have and have not believe in God. And there always will be. But I object to them sterilising our world to an extent that Religious belief has to be hidden.

Atheist Ireland is not suggesting that religious belief has to be hidden. Our position is that freedom of conscience, religion and belief are unlimited, and that freedom to practice religion should be limited only by the need to respect the rights of others.

alex73 wrote: »

I respect Micheal Nugents Opinion, he is 100% entitled to it and society should respect him. But he should not look to change the majority opinion in society about religious symbols. After all more people belief that those who don't.

I would make an important distinction here between respecting a person (which we should do) and respecting a person's right to have a belief or an opinion (which we should also do) and respecting the belief or opinion itself (which we should either do or not do based on the merit of the belief or opinion).

Anybody should have the right to seek to change the majority opinion on anything once they do so democratically. That is how society evolves.

alex73

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Atheist Ireland is not suggesting that religious belief has to be hidden. Our position is that freedom of conscience, religion and belief are unlimited, and that freedom to practice religion should be limited only by the need to respect the rights of others.

Anybody should have the right to seek to change the majority opinion on anything once they do so democratically. That is how society evolves.

Michael, for sure I am not going to compare you to anybody... But in the 1930's we can see how German society evolved towards certain religious symbols.... Whats wrong with the current status quo? I respect your opinion and you respect the religious tradition that is over 1500 years old in Ireland. The English already tried to burn religion out of Ireland and failed.

magicbastarder

alex73 wrote: »

But in the 1930's we can see how German society evolved towards certain religious symbols....

ooh, subtle, but i do believe you've just tripped the godwin detector.

Tim Robbins

Michael Nugent wrote: »

We had a lengthy debate on that. Ultimately we went with the name atheist for a combination of reasons, including but not limited to...

Because there was no public vehicle for people who choose to self-identify as atheists to do so under that label.

But what about the atheists who do not wish you to speak for them?
As I said your group take an anti-religion stance. Many atheists don't and you are misrepresenting them because your name suggests you speak for all atheists even though you are just self appointed from a sub selection of atheists (probably less than 3% of all atheists in Ireland).

Because the word atheism has a stigma for many people, and that stigma will only be dissipated by by atheists choosing to publicly self-identify as atheists when promoting reasonable ends.

I hate to say it but I think your group is further stigmatising atheists by taking a hardline line against religion. My mother finds it hard that I call myself an atheist. They see atheist Ireland taking the mick and laughing at Catholic beliefs and it makes it harder for them.

We also encourage people to examine other like-minded groups, like the Humanist Association of Ireland, and to get involved in whatever combination of groups that they personally feel most comfortable with.

It is still not clear to me why you didn't just join up with the HAI. They had made some progress with the government and had met them over important issues such as schools etc. There are also an international movement and have an agreed a basis of an ethical framework in the Amsterdam declaration. It's surely going to be a while before AI even gets that far.

alex73

alex73 wrote: »

Michael, for sure I am not going to compare you to anybody... But in the 1930's we can see how German society evolved towards certain religious symbols.... Whats wrong with the current status quo? I respect your opinion and you respect the religious tradition that is over 1500 years old in Ireland. The English already tried to burn religion out of Ireland and failed.

You aren't trying to compare him to anybody but then compare him to the Nazis and the English during the Penal times?

Obvious troll is obvious.