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Prop 8 Overturned

  • 05-08-2010 01:04AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/prop-8-overturned-gay-mar_n_671018.html

    "In a major victory for gay rights activists, a federal judge ruled on Wednesday that a voter initiative banning same-sex marriage in California violated the Constitution's equal protection and due process rights clauses.

    After a five-month wait, 9th Circuit District Court Judge Vaughn Walker offered a 136-page decision in the case of Perry v. Schwarzenegger, firmly rejecting Proposition 8, which was passed by voters in November 2008.

    "Although Proposition 8 fails to possess even a rational basis, the evidence presented at trial shows that gays and lesbians are the type of minority strict scrutiny was designed to protect," Walker ruled.

    "Plaintiffs do not seek recognition of a new right. To characterize plaintiffs' objective as "the right to same-sex marriage" would suggest that plaintiffs seek something different from what opposite-sex couples across the state enjoy -- namely, marriage. Rather, plaintiffs ask California to recognize their relationships for what they are: marriages."

    "Proposition 8 places the force of law behind stigmas against gays and lesbians, including: gays and lesbians do not have intimate relationships similar to heterosexual couples; gays and lesbians are not as good as heterosexuals; and gay and lesbian relationships do not deserve the full recognition of society."

    The judgment was the first offered by a federal court with respect to laws banning gay marriage at the state level and it promises to have massive reverberations across the political and judicial landscape. The decision is now expected to head to the Ninth Circuit Appeals Court, also based in San Francisco, for appeal, and from there to the Supreme Court. (Gay marriages will not resume immediately in California; the decision has been stayed until August 6 to consider arguments regarding an appeal.)

    In the interim, however, Walker's ruling gave gay-rights activists a second occasion to rejoice in less than a month. In July, a federal judge in Massachusetts ruled that the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which defines marriage as one man and one woman, was also unconstitutional.
    Story continues below

    "Today's decision is by no means California's first milestone, nor our last, on America's road to equality and freedom for all people," said Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in a statement.

    A White House official emailed reporters, "The President has spoken out in opposition to Proposition 8 because it is divisive and discriminatory. He will continue to promote equality for LGBT Americans."

    "It is not only a home run, it is a grand slam," said Jon Davidson the legal director at Lambda Legal, the country's largest and oldest LBGT legal organization. "This decisions is not going to be the end of this fight, the proponents have already said they will appeal. But I think the factual findings that the judge has made and his clear and detailed analysis will be important to frame the case as it goes up on appeal."

    "This is part of an educational process that is going on in this country. When judges look outside of the political process and they go through the evidence and treat arguments as more than just sound bites they come to the conclusion that withholding marriage from same sex couples hurts them and their families and doesn't help anyone. That helps move the conversation."

    Wednesday's decision came after lengthy, substantive, and at times provocative legal deliberations in which an odd-couple pairing of lawyers took on the cause of overturning the same-sex marriage ban. Theodore Olson and David Boies -- direct adversaries in the 2000 Supreme Court presidential recount battle -- made the case that Prop 8 violated both the equal protection and due process clauses of the constitution. The law, the two argued, was discriminatory on the basis of both sexual orientation and on the basis of sex in addition to violating the principle that marriage was a personal liberty.

    "The Supreme Court has said that marriage is the most important relation in life. Now that's being withheld from the plaintiffs," Olson said in his closing argument. "Marriage, the Supreme Court has said again and again, is a component of liberty, privacy, spirituality and autonomy."

    Representing the defense, another Washington-based lawyer, Charles Cooper leaned heavily on the social impact of codifying gay marriage, arguing that "marriage is to channel the sexual behavior between men and women into a procreative union."

    In deciding the case, Walker offered a variety of findings that may be as important as the ruling itself. Among them were the following:

    * "Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as a characteristic of the individual. Sexual orientation is fundamental to a person's identity and is a distinguishing characteristic that defines gays and lesbians as a discrete group. Proponents' assertion that sexual orientation cannot be defined is contrary to the weight of the evidence."

    * "Individuals do not generally choose their sexual orientation. No credible evidence supports a finding that an individual may, through conscious decision, therapeutic intervention or any other method, change his or her sexual orientation."

    * "Same-sex couples are identical to opposite-sex couples in the characteristics relevant to the ability to form successful marital unions. Like opposite-sex couples, same-sex couples have happy, satisfying relationships and form deep emotional bonds and strong commitments to their partners. Standardized measures of relationship satisfaction, relationship adjustment and love do not differ depending on whether a couple is same-sex or opposite-sex."

    * "Marrying a person of the opposite sex is an unrealistic option for gay and lesbian individuals."

    * "Same-sex couples receive the same tangible and intangible benefits from marriage that opposite-sex couples receive."

    * "The availability of domestic partnership does not provide gays and lesbians with a status equivalent to marriage because the cultural meaning of marriage and its associated benefits are intentionally withheld from same-sex couples in domestic partnerships."

    * "Permitting same-sex couples to marry will not affect the number of opposite-sex couples who marry, divorce, cohabit, have children outside of marriage or otherwise affect the stability of opposite-sex marriages."

    Perhaps the most important political finding that Walker made was his conclusion that the fact that Prop 8 passed as a voter initiative was irrelevant as "fundamental rights may not be submitted to [a] vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections."

    It does not appear that Walker allowed for an immediate hold on his decision, which means that the defense must seek one from a higher court. Until then, gay couples could be legally allowed to marry in the state of California."


    I think this is an important decision and may have a big impact on the political scene across the country.
    I am delighted about this decision, finally we can start making social progress again.
    It will be appealed I presume but for now all I can say is Suck it Mormons.


«1

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    One more step away from us living in castles again. :mad:

    What is there to say other than great news.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Great! But this is only the beginning as this ruling will definitely be appealed and will probably end up in the Supreme Court eventually. Now THAT will be interesting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭Carcharodon


    kev9100 wrote: »
    Great! But this is only the beginning as this ruling will definitely be appealed and will probably end up in the Supreme Court eventually. Now THAT will be interesting.

    Yea, I think the objective was to get this to the Supreme Court where a landmark decision will have to be made involving the constitution. Fair play to the judge for giving such a broad judgement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Activist judges are pustules of society. The 14th amendment has nothing to do with the case, and it’s a state issue, not federal. The people of the state have spoken, just as the people of the state of Massachusetts have spoken.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    They are "activist judges" when it comes to gay marriage, but not when they are overturning laws on handguns right?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    They are "activist judges" when it comes to gay marriage, but not when they are overturning laws on handguns right?

    7,000,000 to 1 is not activist?

    I can show you where the right to bear arms is in the 2nd amendment. Show me where marriage is in the 14th.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Yea, I think the objective was to get this to the Supreme Court where a landmark decision will have to be made involving the constitution. Fair play to the judge for giving such a broad judgement.


    I hope not. And not because I care about gay marriage, because I don't, but because it's a victory for state control.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Amerika wrote: »
    The 14th amendment has nothing to do with the case, and it’s a state issue, not federal. The people of the state have spoken, just as the people of the state of Massachusetts have spoken.

    Yes, the people of the State have spoken. But they have spoken on a Civil Rights issue where they have no right to make a judgement as the electorate has no right to deny someone's civil rights. For example, in the Loving vs Virginia ruling of 1967 the SC ended all race-based legal restrictions on marriage in the United States and stated that "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man". Do you believe that ruling should have been put to the electorate as well?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭MrSir


    I would be against this but I'm a human being with some level of intelligence beyond six year olds so I'm all for it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Sorry, to me using the 14th amendment as the basis for the ruling is the work of an activist judge, when the 10th amendment clearily handles the circumstance (without flights of fancy added to the interpertation).

    “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭TheReverend


    Sometimes the people are wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Amerika wrote: »
    Sorry, to me using the 14th amendment as the basis for the ruling is the work of an activist judge, when the 10th amendment clearily handles the circumstance (without flights of fancy added to the interpertation).

    “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

    In your world Amerika, the 'separate but equal' clause would no doubt still stand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭Carcharodon


    Amerika wrote: »
    Activist judges are pustules of society. The 14th amendment has nothing to do with the case, and it’s a state issue, not federal. The people of the state have spoken, just as the people of the state of Massachusetts have spoken.

    Republicans in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, even though the people spoke in a certain election, GWB still managed to find his way into office.;)

    I actually think the 14th amendment has a lot to do with in my opinion, is the 14th amendment not about civil rights ?
    Do normal, sane, intelligent people not think that everyone should be treated equally and gay people given the same rights as everyone else.
    I can get the religious nuts going against it, sure they believe there is a man in the clouds :rolleyes:, but anyone else opposing it must have some serious moral issues.

    And calling the judge a radical is a bit much, he had the courage to do the right thing and stand up for the constitution.
    I think you were probably singing a different tune when Walker's original nomination to the bench by Ronald Reagan in 1987 stalled in the Senate Judiciary Committee because of controversy over his representation of the United States Olympic Committee in a lawsuit that prohibited the use of the title "Gay Olympics". Two dozen House Democrats, led by Rep. Nancy Pelosi of San Francisco, opposed his nomination because of his alleged "insensitivity" to gays and the poor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Sometimes the people are wrong.
    Yes, a classic argument why a Republic form of government is superior to a Democracy - where rule is by omnipotent majority. In a Republic the people are ruled by an adopted set of laws… the Constitution and it’s amendments in our case.

    Which form of government better protects the minority?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Amerika wrote: »
    Sorry, to me using the 14th amendment as the basis for the ruling is the work of an activist judge, when the 10th amendment clearily handles the circumstance (without flights of fancy added to the interpertation).

    “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

    You just completely ignored what I said. The Supreme Court has identified marraige as a Civil Right and Prop 8 denied the LGBT community that right.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Sorry, maybe I'm just thick. I don't see where you all are getting all this from the following. To me using this as the basis for the ruling is something no ordinary individual would garner from the amendment. And I'm pretty sure the Consitution was written by the founding fathers for the common man to understand.

    "Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

    Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

    Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

    Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭Carcharodon


    Amerika wrote: »
    Sorry, maybe I'm just thick.

    You said it, not us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Amerika wrote: »
    "Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Privileges or immunities are terms determined by laws, and Prop 8 determined that law in this situation in CA. If it was wrong, it should have been stopped and not even allowed to be voted upon... not afterward becasue some just don’t like the outcome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Amerika wrote: »
    Privileges or immunities are terms determined by laws, and Prop 8 determined that law in this situation in CA. If it was wrong, it should have been stopped and not even allowed to be voted upon... not afterward becasue some just don’t like the outcome.

    Yes, but the law was constitutionally wrong. For what seems like the hundreth time, neither the legislature or the electorate have the right to deny someone their Civil Rights. Thus, the judge struck down Prop 8.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭Carcharodon


    Amerika wrote: »
    Privileges or immunities are terms determined by laws, and Prop 8 determined that law in this situation in CA. If it was wrong, it should have been stopped and not even allowed to be voted upon... not afterward becasue some just don’t like the outcome.

    Maybe, but that still doesn't make it right.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.

    The Priviliges and Immunities clause when applying the Bill of Rights is something of a dead letter and has almost no legal effect. The Slaughterhouse case saw to that. The best chance for a reversal was in McDonald, and only one justice was interested in bringing it back. 14th applies most of the Bill of Rights through the Due Process clause, for better or worse.

    If gay marriage is covered under the Federal Constitution and if it is incorporated against the States through the 14th's Due Process clause, then it by definition is no longer a matter of States Rights. The tricky bit is figuring out where gay marriage is covered under Federal Constitution, but there is precedent in SCOTUS coming up with fundamental rights which are not written anywhere in the Constitution and decreeing them covered by it. Abortion is one of them. I have not read the Judge's opinion, but I presume that he/she did find a way of doing it.

    There is something to be said, in the event of a questionable issue, of erring on the side of the individual liberty.
    . If it was wrong, it should have been stopped and not even allowed to be voted upon... not afterward becasue some just don’t like the outcome.

    I don't believe the American legal system allows for speculative litigation. Standing will only be granted once there is something to be enforced against the plaintiff. The case could only be brought after Prop 8 passed, not before.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 888 ✭✭✭Mjollnir


    Amerika wrote: »
    Privileges or immunities are terms determined by laws, and Prop 8 determined that law in this situation in CA. If it was wrong, it should have been stopped and not even allowed to be voted upon... not afterward becasue some just don’t like the outcome.

    I'm sorry, but that's not how our system works in CA.

    No amount of pouting will change that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 992 ✭✭✭LostinKildare


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    I wasn’t aware that much of anything worked in CA. :rolleyes:

    And when did marriage become a civil right? How many other civil rights do you all know of that requires a license? I do know that every state has their own individual laws regarding marriage. Are they all unconstitutional?

    And under the same argument used by so many here, wouldn’t polygamy also be considered a civil right? If not, why not?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    So AmeriKa, what's your beef with Gay Marriage?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    So AmeriKa, what's your beef with Gay Marriage?

    Show me where anywhere in this thread that I indicated I had a beef with Gay Marriage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Amerika wrote: »
    Show me where anywhere in this thread that I indicated I had a beef with Gay Marriage.
    That appears rather self-evident tbh.
    Your the only person here pouting about the judge's ruling.

    So, are you a supporter of Gay Marriage?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    That appears rather self-evident tbh.
    Unsurprisingly, you sound a lot like this activist judge IMO.
    Your the only person here pouting about the judge's ruling.
    Do you mean the only one standing up against incorrect rulings from activist judges?
    So, are you a supporter of Gay Marriage?
    If a particular state says it’s okay, then it’s okay in that state IMO (as long as they don’t require other states to abide by their decisions).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Amerika wrote: »
    If a particular state says it’s okay, then it’s okay in that state IMO (as long as they don’t require other states to abide by their decisions).
    Does that mean you would have it that a person's marriage isn't recognised by another state?
    That'd create all kinds of mess.


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