Starting strength for a hurler?

waterford1988

I've recently started doing Ripptoe's starting strength program but I have some concerns. I have noticed the amount I can lift increase steadily but I have some concerns about would I be better off training differently as I lift weigths to improve my hurling primarily. The fact that I have been going slow as I can through both the eccentric and concentric phases, as I know it will stimulate muscle growth but I have also heard of the phrase "train slow, get slow" so I am worried about this method of training affecting my speed.

I am 6ft tall and about 12 stone 4 pounds in weight so I wouldnt be the biggest of guys naturally. I am trying to peak physically for next january/febuary for college competition but then also for club championship beginning in April.

I play on goal so I work also on my flexability. Does anyone here have experience in personal training for hurlers? I make the distinction here between hurlers and Gaa players as there is huge differences between the physical requirements if a top level footballer and hurler.

Thanks for reading.

brianthebard

There is no reason to do the lifts slow, just controlled. Either way lifting won't slow down your hurling.

Scuba Ste

Like Brian said more controlled than slow. I always like to be controlled on the eccentric and fast on the concentric, you wont actually be fast because of the weight of the bar but you try, if you get me. I cant imagine lifting much if I was actually trying to be slow on the way up.

Curiously what's the huge difference between the physical requirements of hurlers and footballers?

cc87

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Curiously what's the huge difference between the physical requirements of hurlers and footballers?

I think this is just a big misconception in GAA circles, the basic physical requirements are identical really. There may be a bigger need for strength in football but that doesnt mean hurlers wont benefit just as much by carrying out the same level of strength training.

Wasnt there an article a few months ago on the Starting Strength site about how theres no sport or athlete out there that would not benefit by being stronger?

Edit: think this was the article http://startingstrength.com/articles/keeping_strength_programs_starr.pdf

bubbleking

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Curiously what's the huge difference between the physical requirements of hurlers and footballers?

No offense to hurlers but you have to be stronger and have more anaerobic endurance to play football. And have more skill to play hurling obv

waterford1988

I feel in hurling you have to be faster, and it is more about getting off the mark quicker than your opponent. From my undestanding of this this requires good reactions and more recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibres.

In gaelic football there is more requirement to run about 50-70 yards especially for players playing around the middle of the field. Look at how many wing backs you see getting on the end of movements to put the ball over the bar. In hurling the furthest most players will have to run for the ball is about 20 meters.

As a goalkeeper in hurling you need to balance the power to puck out the ball far (although a lot of this is due to technique), with agility to move around the goal area quickly with reactions to not only stop shots but also to get to breaking balls within 10 yards or so of the goal line.

To say that hurlers and footballers train the same is crazy, I mean compare the build of say an intercounty hurling wingback with a football one. I would say on average the football lad will be at least a stone and a half heavier, but the hurler will be probably more agile and quicker to react.

brianthebard

sorry but agility and reaction time has little or nothing to do with size and strength.

cc87

waterford1988 wrote: »

I
To say that hurlers and footballers train the same is crazy, I mean compare the build of say an intercounty hurling wingback with a football one. I would say on average the football lad will be at least a stone and a half heavier, but the hurler will be probably more agile and quicker to react.

Because im that kind of guy, i went through a few match programmes i have from both codes and your statement about the comparison of wingbacks doesnt hold true for the following teams, Cork + Kilkenny hurling 2006, Cork+ Kerry football 2009, Cork+Kerry football 2007, Cork+Waterford hurling 2010. There is very little difference in weight for the half backs in the above teams and since they would be considered very good teams in general, i think they must be doing something right.

IMO, for the average strength trained athlete, any muscle they have will not impact on agility and/or quickness once the appropriate training has being carried out for these qualities.

Hanley

brianthebard wrote: »

sorry but agility and reaction time has little or nothing to do with size and strength.

Exactly, look at NFL players....

cc87

waterford1988 wrote: »

I feel in hurling you have to be faster, and it is more about getting off the mark quicker than your opponent. From my undestanding of this this requires good reactions and more recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibres.

Would this not hold true just as much in football?

waterford1988 wrote: »

In gaelic football there is more requirement to run about 50-70 yards especially for players playing around the middle of the field. Look at how many wing backs you see getting on the end of movements to put the ball over the bar. In hurling the furthest most players will have to run for the ball is about 20 meters.

Id nearly disagree and say that the ability to repeatedly run long distance is more important in hurling due to the speed of the game. Lets say a half-back up supporting his half forward line. Balls ends in keepers hands. The halfback now has to run 30/40 meters to defend before the ball gets there.

waterford1988 wrote: »

As a goalkeeper in hurling you need to balance the power to puck out the ball far (although a lot of this is due to technique), with agility to move around the goal area quickly with reactions to not only stop shots but also to get to breaking balls within 10 yards or so of the goal line.

Like you said a puck out is a lot to do with technique, similar to a golfers swing for example? The power that they can put behind that swing will have an effect on how long the ball travels regardless of skill. Same holds true for hurling.

waterford1988

cc87 wrote: »

Because im that kind of guy, i went through a few match programmes i have from both codes and your statement about the comparison of wingbacks doesnt hold true for the following teams, Cork + Kilkenny hurling 2006, Cork+ Kerry football 2009, Cork+Kerry football 2007, Cork+Waterford hurling 2010. There is very little difference in weight for the half backs in the above teams and since they would be considered very good teams in general, i think they must be doing something right.

IMO, for the average strength trained athlete, any muscle they have will not impact on agility and/or quickness once the appropriate training has being carried out for these qualities.

Well you have done more research on the weight of gaa players than me. But surely you would agree that footballers tend to be stockier than their hurling counterparts? Looking at most hurlers they certainly don't have the same muscle development as gaelic footballers. Footballers are beginning to look the same build as some players in positions in rugby.

Would I be better off doing an explosive weight training program rather than starting strength? Or would plyometrics and sprint training be enough coupled with the starting strength?

waterford1988

cc87 wrote: »

Would this not hold true just as much in football?


Id nearly disagree and say that the ability to repeatedly run long distance is more important in hurling due to the speed of the game. Lets say a half-back up supporting his half forward line. Balls ends in keepers hands. The halfback now has to run 30/40 meters to defend before the ball gets there.


Like you said a puck out is a lot to do with technique, similar to a golfers swing for example? The power that they can put behind that swing will have an effect on how long the ball travels regardless of skill. Same holds true for hurling.

In hurling it is very rare for a wingback to come up supporting a half forward line. That is purely a football tactic. If a hlaf back in hurling scores I can assure you that it is very rarely coming from the opposite 65 meter line.
As you said the ball moves quicker which means the ball does the work rather than the player running. A hurler will usually not run more than 20 meters to the ball, and often it is less. Even when they gather the ball the way hurling has developed the earlier the ball is released to the inside forward line the better, so the ball is not carried via soloing even as much as it was 20 years ago.

To develop power is starting strength the way to go?

brianthebard

waterford1988 wrote: »

To develop power is starting strength the way to go?

Yes. and if you desire explosive strength just move faster. Everything else is just overthinking the issue at this stage, so just stick with the programme, eat well and make consistent progress for the next six months and you will see improvements.

sportinglegend

You have identified the stages that you wish to peak for so a good idea would be to periodize your training schedule breaking it into blocks/phases such as General Adaptation, Strength Training Phase and Power Training phase and then a Maintenance or in-competition phase of training.

This way you will make sure your well prepared for your championship games.

Also good to add some variety to your workouts by changing some of the exercises you are doing keeping fresh and motivated.

I would say follow starting strength and maybe add in some sport specific exercises as well for example you might work in some shoulder exercises making sure you have excellent ROM.

Brian?

waterford1988 wrote: »

To develop power is starting strength the way to go?

I am no expert, but getting stronger is developing more power. Sprinters need bigger hams, quads and glutes to increase speed so squats, deadlifts and power cleans can only help.

Working in lower rep ranges i.e 5 reps instead of 12 is going to stimulate fast twitch fibres.

FTA69

Exactly, look at NFL players....

Or even the Cork footballers, they're all big b*stards but yet have extreme pace as well.

dartstothesea

I thought Starting Strength explained this pretty well in the book. Read the section about the power clean. It talks about distinction between strength and power and the benefits of doing training with faster movements.

If I'm understanding correctly what Rippetoe says, just about everyone would only benefit from some more time spent on explosive movements, if they don't do it already that is.

Oh, and he does point out why slower movements and isometric contraction etc will probably still help you in performing the explosive movements actually required in playing the sport.

I'd try to train some of both.

cc87

dartstothesea wrote: »

I thought Starting Strength explained this pretty well in the book. Read the section about the power clean. It talks about distinction between strength and power and the benefits of doing training with faster movements.

If I'm understanding correctly what Rippetoe says, just about everyone would only benefit from some more time spent on explosive movements, if they don't do it already that is.

Oh, and he does point out why slower movements and isometric contraction etc will probably still help you in performing the explosive movements actually required in playing the sport.

I'd try to train some of both.

A lot of people who do the Starting Strength programme more than likely dont even know that Starting Strength is a book, id even wager some probably havent even heard of Rippetoe

dartstothesea

cc87 wrote: »

A lot of people who do the Starting Strength programme more than likely dont even know that Starting Strength is a book, id even wager some probably havent even heard of Rippletoe

Ha, I guess I'm the opposite. I only know the book, I assumed everyone was the same. To this day I've only really heard the odd mention of Starting Strength as a programme (which really confused me at first).

Hanley

cc87 wrote: »

A lot of people who do the Starting Strength programme more than likely dont even know that Starting Strength is a book, id even wager some probably havent even heard of Rippletoe

The irony of that statement is absolutely immense.

dartstothesea

Haha, I just coppled that.

cc87

Hanley wrote: »

The irony of that statement is absolutely immense.

Oops

entropi

briankeating wrote: »

I am no expert, but getting stronger is developing more power. Sprinters need bigger hams, quads and glutes to increase speed so squats, deadlifts and power cleans can only help.

Working in lower rep ranges i.e 5 reps instead of 12 is going to stimulate fast twitch fibres.

This above yes, but for hurlers alot of size vs strength levels would be weighed against where you play on the field also. I'm a corner forward myself in hurling, lighter athletic build and built for speed so I can run rings around defence, win breaking balls and try score, or set up the full forward to score. Defence and half backs need more bulk, coupled with strength to basically outright win physical challenges.

Midfield need preferably strength, wing backs/forwards speed, strength and not so much bulk.

I would say the training mentioned by brian I quoted, along with fartlek/interval sessions will be what you need, unless fartlek is covered in your training sessions (I know it is in mine anyway). And make sure you have good core strength so you can hold off challenges.

Brian?

Master of Nothing wrote: »

This above yes, but for hurlers alot of size vs strength levels would be weighed against where you play on the field also. I'm a corner forward myself in hurling, lighter athletic build and built for speed so I can run rings around defence, win breaking balls and try score, or set up the full forward to score. Defence and half backs need more bulk, coupled with strength to basically outright win physical challenges.

Midfield need preferably strength, wing backs/forwards speed, strength and not so much bulk.

Agreed.

However, this is all just opinion, adding bulk is not the primary goal of starting strength, its actually a by product of it. The primary goal being getting stronger which coupled with a calorie surplus will add bulk. A lighter hurler will stay that way if he watches his calories but will get stronger and more athletic.

FTA69

Master of Nothing wrote: »

I can run rings around defence, win breaking balls and try score, or set up the full forward to score.

Where were you against Antrim so?

brianthebard

Master of Nothing wrote: »

This above yes, but for hurlers alot of size vs strength levels would be weighed against where you play on the field also. I'm a corner forward myself in hurling, lighter athletic build and built for speed so I can run rings around defence, win breaking balls and try score, or set up the full forward to score. Defence and half backs need more bulk, coupled with strength to basically outright win physical challenges.

Sorry but think about what you said for a minute. Why would defenders need to be bulkier if the people they are defending against are much smaller? It doesn't make sense. Imo 90% of what we think of stereotypical position players goes back to primary school, the faster kids who were probably lighter were put at the front and the bigger or slower people at the back, and that idea of what players should be has carried through to the adult level. There's absolutely no reason why forwards should be lighter or defenders should be bulkier, or why defenders can't also be considered to have an athletic build while still having a stone or two on their opposition. Being lighter does not mean you're built for speed, you're just built to get knocked over easier.

waterford1988

So I should be doing starting strength but also some extra exercises for my shoulders ROM?

Has anyone any advice on working on agility? apart from just working on flexability which I already do

brianthebard

Do you have a problem with shoulder rom atm? If so you should see a physio. If not I don't think you specifically have to work on it. As for agility, do you not do drills for that at hurling training?

TheSegal

brianthebard wrote: »

. There's absolutely no reason why forwards should be lighter or defenders should be bulkier, or why defenders can't also be considered to have an athletic build while still having a stone or two on their opposition. Being lighter does not mean you're built for speed, you're just built to get knocked over easier.

I completly agree with Brian on this one, i'm a small man (5'7) and only weigh about 11stone so i'm the exact opposite of a big bulky man for backs and it doesn't hold me back. In fact, being able to outrun the forward i'm marking helps me alot! And before people say I need to get up high and knock the forward out of the way when a high ball comes in, I have a hurl and know how to use it to bat down a high ball without hitting the opposing player!

In response to the OP, starting strength on top of what you should already be doing at training is enough. The first few sessions of doms will have your trainer roarin at you though over not playin aswell as you usually would Make sure you don't focus all your attention on starting strength though, as someone mentioned earlier, a lot of your swing comes from technique. Theres also the fact that I find goin out on to the pitch and puckin a ball and taking shots with friends is a great stress reliever, especially when ya pummel the goalie with bullets of shots!!