Usage caps and games consoles

Ranicand

Going over your cap is easy these days without using torrents.
Itunes on PC offer full Movies for download and this is 100% above board.

Playstation and Xbox offer Demo downloads that average a Gig at a time.
Xbox offers Zune Movie rentals in full streaming 1080p and Movies come in between 7 and 12 gig per shot.
Full game downloads can be had on Xbox about 7Gig or more a shot.

Also for Apple Mac users full Movie downloads are on offer too.
We have to be realistic here and bandwidth does cost but we need our ISPs to wake up to the fact that more and more of us are becoming high bandwidth users.

Sorry UPC but 250Gig per rolling 30 days can no longer be described as unlimited.

-=al=-

i was just thinking this yesterday after i was about to download a 1.2gb game add on on a 360

the higher the broadband speed on an "unlimited" package the higher the "fair" usage cap should be

Ranicand

-=al=- wrote: »

i was just thinking this yesterday after i was about to download a 1.2gb game add on on a 360

the higher the broadband speed on an "unlimited" package the higher the "fair" usage cap should be

Did you download it?

-=al=-

yes and i shud download another today im on irish broadband on a package from a few years ago, i never go near 250gb though i wonder whats in the terms and conditions for the package i have


although when i do a speedtest, sometimes the isp is eircom and sometimes its digiweb, im pretty sure it shudn't be changing?

only happened recently

vibe666

that's the thing, as broadband speeds increase, more things become possible online with those faster speeds and as more things become possible more companies start to provide services that make good use of them and the cycle continues on and on.

10 years ago the net was still relatively young with a modest broadband userbase in Ireland and 512kbps with a small cap was plenty for most people, but times have changed and there's a lot more out there to use your internet connection for other than looking at static web pages and downloading emails.

fingers crossed that UPC actually do something about it when they do the 100mbps upgrades or I'll be able to break the 250gb FUP limit in about 6 hours. :eek:

Knasher

Well at least we aren't in the same situation as America where the major ISPs are introducing really restrictive caps on previously uncapped lines. Especially considering in most cities you will only have, at best, the choice between two ISPs. Just my uninformed opinion, but I honestly consider Europe to have the second best internet in the world, after Asia, and while we in Ireland don't have it as good as some on the mainland, we really aren't that far behind. And more importantly we are going in the right direction.

ShaneU

Ranicand wrote: »

Sorry UPC but 250Gig per rolling 30 days can no longer be described as unlimited.

They should never have advertised it as unlimited in the first place.

cypharius

250 Gigs is better then 50GB on Eircom. At least 250 is alot.

jay93

Alot of providers in Ireland get away with saying its unlimited when its not they have a hidden FUP in small print..only provider is magnet doesnt have a download limit and no hidden FUP

hightower1

jay93 wrote: »

Alot of providers in Ireland get away with saying its unlimited when its not they have a hidden FUP in small print..only provider is magnet doesnt have a download limit and no hidden FUP

Actually Magnet DO have an FUP as stated by their own rep here, they just haven't enforced it but can choose to do so at any time, so EVERY isp in Irl do have a FUP.
Any business in fact that offers something as "unlimited" has a FUP in place to stop people taking the mick be it "unlimited" texts with Meteor to "unlimited" refills of your soda in Subway.

Bandwidth like tangible goods costs money and no business model can support giving truly unlimited amounts of something away for a set price.

animaal

hightower1 wrote: »

Bandwidth like tangible goods costs money and no business model can support giving truly unlimited amounts of something away for a set price.

But then they shouldn't lie by calling it unlimited.

If they have describe an offering as "UNLIMITED" when it's not, then it's a lie. Regardless of whether they refer elsewhere to a FUP.



I should be managing a cinema. "Visit my cinema, pay 15 euros entry fee, and see an unlimited number of movies*" (*subject to fair usage policy - maximum of one movie)

Skerries

i don't what dictionary they use but mine says

un·lim·it·ed   [uhn-lim-i-tid]
–adjective
1.
not limited; unrestricted; unconfined: unlimited trade.
2.
boundless; infinite; vast: the unlimited skies.
3.
without any qualification or exception; unconditional.

hightower1

animaal wrote: »

But then they shouldn't lie by calling it unlimited.

If they have describe an offering as "UNLIMITED" when it's not, then it's a lie. Regardless of whether they refer elsewhere to a FUP.



I should be managing a cinema. "Visit my cinema, pay 15 euros entry fee, and see an unlimited number of movies*" (*subject to fair usage policy - maximum of one movie)

Then your issue is not ISP specific but a problem with ANY business calling an offer unlimited then? Perhaps the consumer forum is better suited for the discussion if thats the case.

In ref to your analogy of a cinema offering "unimited" viewings, its flawed tbh. A fup of one movie is ridiculous as in comparison a standard ticket gives you the same amount of viewings .... 1. If however your fup was say 15 movies then this is significantly above the cap of one on the standard ticket.... just like UPC's lowest pack cap of 40gb, 250 gb is a multipal of times higher.

of coarse if you gave an unlimited amount of viewings to a customer in your cinema and then he cheekily decided to think this entitled him to retain his ticket and never pay for the movies again how do you think you will run that business seeing as you have now lost return revenue and are loosing a seat to this guy? Now he tells his mates who all buy "unlimited" tickets and as you have no fup you now have a once off fee and a complex full of people a year later watching movies who dont pay and YOU have overheads.

This would be called taking the piss and you out of business.... but at least you have a clean conscience that you didnt have an fup in place.

johnmcdnl

hightower1 wrote: »

Then your issue is not ISP specific but a problem with ANY business calling an offer unlimited then? Perhaps the consumer forum is better suited for the discussion if thats the case.

In ref to your analogy of a cinema offering "unimited" viewings, its flawed tbh. A fup of one movie is ridiculous as in comparison a standard ticket gives you the same amount of viewings .... 1. If however your fup was say 15 movies then this is significantly above the cap of one on the standard ticket.... just like UPC's lowest pack cap of 40gb, 250 gb is a multipal of times higher.

of coarse if you gave an unlimited amount of viewings to a customer in your cinema and then he cheekily decided to think this entitled him to retain his ticket and never pay for the movies again how do you think you will run that business seeing as you have now lost return revenue and are loosing a seat to this guy? Now he tells his mates who all buy "unlimited" tickets and as you have no fup you now have a once off fee and a complex full of people a year later watching movies who dont pay and YOU have overheads.

This would be called taking the piss and you out of business.... but at least you have a clean conscience that you didnt have an fup in place.

this is flawed too..
when you pay for your UNLIMITED broadband your paying for a months unlimted downloads - 50 euro a month for UNLIMITED downloads during that month... then you pay your 50 euro for the next month then... etc etc... that's what anyone would understand about UNLIMITED.. that's what there advertising

if Vodafone or O2 started offering unlimited number of free texts to any network for 20 euro a month but then in the FUP it said your only allowed 250 texts a month - then it's not unlimited is it?? it's false advertising

Ranicand

hightower1 wrote: »

Then your issue is not ISP specific but a problem with ANY business calling an offer unlimited then? Perhaps the consumer forum is better suited for the discussion if thats the case.

In ref to your analogy of a cinema offering "unimited" viewings, its flawed tbh. A fup of one movie is ridiculous as in comparison a standard ticket gives you the same amount of viewings .... 1. If however your fup was say 15 movies then this is significantly above the cap of one on the standard ticket.... just like UPC's lowest pack cap of 40gb, 250 gb is a multipal of times higher.

of coarse if you gave an unlimited amount of viewings to a customer in your cinema and then he cheekily decided to think this entitled him to retain his ticket and never pay for the movies again how do you think you will run that business seeing as you have now lost return revenue and are loosing a seat to this guy? Now he tells his mates who all buy "unlimited" tickets and as you have no fup you now have a once off fee and a complex full of people a year later watching movies who dont pay and YOU have overheads.

This would be called taking the piss and you out of business.... but at least you have a clean conscience that you didnt have an fup in place.

Rubbish.

If the Cinema had any sense they would call it a 15 movie multipass not an UNLIMITED PASS blatant misuse of the term unlimited is what people are complaining about here.

Ok UPC 5Meg has a 40GB usage limit.
15 and 30Meg packages have a 250GB usage limit simple.
Instead UPC call it unlimited.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

hightower1

johnmcdnl wrote: »

this is flawed too..
when you pay for your UNLIMITED broadband your paying for a months unlimted downloads - 50 euro a month for UNLIMITED downloads during that month... then you pay your 50 euro for the next month then... etc etc... that's what anyone would understand about UNLIMITED.. that's what there advertising

if Vodafone or O2 started offering unlimited number of free texts to any network for 20 euro a month but then in the FUP it said your only allowed 250 texts a month - then it's not unlimited is it?? it's false advertising

(Facepalm).... ehhh o2 do have a LOT of free extra's accross their differing packs.... these are ALL subject to fair usage too.

http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/About+O2/Terms+and+Conditions/Old+Pay+Monthly+terms/Free+Extras/




As I said this isnt an ISP specific thing... ANY company that says it has unlimited anything always has a FUP in place.

Ranicand

cypharius wrote: »

250 Gigs is better then 50GB on Eircom. At least 250 is alot.

I am not saying 250GB is not alot what I am saying is it is not UNLIMITED.

Copy and pasted from the UPC site


What do I get?

* Dedicated support team available to assist with many of your broadband and computer issues. Click here for details.
* 30Mb downstream; 3Mb upstream
* 24 hour online connection - no time restrictions
* No telephone line required
* No usage limit :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
* Up to 15 email addresses
* 300MB web space
* FREE wireless router (applies to new Broadband customers only)

http://www.upc.ie/broadband/thirty/


Nothing about AUP on that page.

hightower1

Ranicand wrote: »

Rubbish.

If the Cinema had any sense they would call it a 15 movie multipass not an UNLIMITED PASS blatant misuse of the term unlimited is what people are complaining about here

Like I have said twice... its not just ISP that have this practice its anyone selling an unlimted product so maybe its consumer rights section you want to discusss this in if its the use of a company using the term "unlimited" with a fup attached.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=580

Ranicand

hightower1 wrote: »

Like I have said twice... its not just ISP that have this practice its anyone selling an unlimted product so maybe its consumer rights section you want to discusss this in if its the use of a company using the term "unlimited" with a fup attached.

I did not say it was an ISP specific issue but the everybody is doing it argument does not wash.

This thread does belong in the broadband forum because it might stop people running into trouble with their ISP while using their UNLIMITED CONNECTION.

I have never run into a problem yet however was in not for this board I would not have known I had usage cap.

Maybe we need a thread on the consumer rights board also.

Ranicand

hightower1 wrote: »

Like I have said twice... its not just ISP that have this practice its anyone selling an unlimted product so maybe its consumer rights section you want to discusss this in if its the use of a company using the term "unlimited" with a fup attached.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=580

One more thing the SURE EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING IT EXCUSE can be used by everybody then?

Downloading copyrighted music and movies is not allowed but sure everybody is doing it.
By your logic threads about this should be moved onto a crime forum.

hightower1

Ranicand wrote: »

One more thing the SURE EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING IT EXCUSE can be used by everybody then?

Downloading copyrighted music and movies is not allowed but sure everybody is doing it.
By your logic threads about this should be moved onto a crime forum.

Your analogy is the polar opposite of what your issue is with ISP's... your against that but for illegal downloading (so it seems?)???? The two are opposed?

If "everybody" is downloading illegally why in heavens name would they want to talk about doing this in a crim forum... in order to report themselves perhaps? Maybe its a pro crim forum you speak of??

Also copyright infingement is a crime however branding soomething as unlimited with an attached FUP is not (wether you would like it to be it is not)

Dont get me wrong I think ISP's should state their caps, do this though you would find people see this as a target, you can see people on every one of these threads that didnt know its 250gb and come out with some thing like "i'm off to download (legally) dvd sets to beat the band!" . If this is the attitude of people seeing their cap clearly presented and not an FUP then the only logical option left for an isp is to cut the cap. I have no issue with this as I use 60gb on average a month between downlaods, streaming and gaming BUT some folk would have a problem with it.

ISP's globally operate under the assumption that only a small fraction of their customer base will use all their cap and all their bandwidth to the full extent, it allows them bascially oversell the network. This is common place and how any ISP can realistically make money and maintain a proper network .... openly stating this is your speed.. this is how to max it 100% of the day every day and this is your cap means they cant over sell the bandwidth and then as a result need to take on every subscriber under the assumtion that they WILL use their connection completely in every sense and have to load the network accordingly meaning very small amounts of people per area meaning higher prices for those folk and so on so forth....



in short while I agree with showing all possible caps... its simply not a viable way to run or sell a product.

Ranicand

hightower1 wrote: »

Your analogy is the polar opposite of what your issue is with ISP's... your against that but for illegal downloading (so it seems?)???? The two are opposed?

If "everybody" is downloading illegally why in heavens name would they want to talk about doing this in a crim forum... in order to report themselves perhaps? Maybe its a pro crim forum you speak of??

Also copyright infingement is a crime however branding soomething as unlimited with an attached FUP is not (wether you would like it to be it is not)

Dont get me wrong I think ISP's should state their caps, do this though you would find people see this as a target, you can see people on every one of these threads that didnt know its 250gb and come out with some thing like "i'm off to download (legally) dvd sets to beat the band!" . If this is the attitude of people seeing their cap clearly presented and not an FUP then the only logical option left for an isp is to cut the cap. I have no issue with this as I use 60gb on average a month between downlaods, streaming and gaming BUT some folk would have a problem with it.

ISP's globally operate under the assumption that only a small fraction of their customer base will use all their cap and all their bandwidth to the full extent, it allows them bascially oversell the network. This is common place and how any ISP can realistically make money and maintain a proper network .... openly stating this is your speed.. this is how to max it 100% of the day every day and this is your cap means they cant over sell the bandwidth and then as a result need to take on every subscriber under the assumtion that they WILL use their connection completely in every sense and have to load the network accordingly meaning very small amounts of people per area meaning higher prices for those folk and so on so forth....



in short while I agree with showing all possible caps... its simply not a viable way to run or sell a product.

I see your point of people treating the limit as a target.

The term acceptable usage is fine also.

UPC 30 Mega Bit pack with subject to acceptable usage in small print this if fine.

But UPC advertise it as UNLIMITED this is the problem.

ttm

Ranicand wrote: »

I see your point of people treating the limit as a target.

The term acceptable usage is fine also.

UPC 30 Mega Bit pack with subject to acceptable usage in small print this if fine.

But UPC advertise it as UNLIMITED this is the problem.

I've not read the small print but what happens when you hit the limit of the UNLIMITED service?

If they cut you off then it isn't unlimited, if however they cut you down to say 64Kb/s then you still have "unlimited" internet access even though you aren't going to be able to do much.

cypharius

cypharius wrote: »

250 Gigs is better then 50GB on Eircom. At least 250 is alot.

Eircom don't charge, though. I go over their cap by close to 1000% (500GB) every month, and I've never been charged, or even warned.

ShaneU

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Eircom don't charge, though. I go over their cap by close to 1000% (500GB) every month, and I've never been charged, or even warned.

They do charge now. Speaking from experience.

johnmcdnl

hightower1 wrote: »

in short while I agree with showing all possible caps... its simply not a viable way to run or sell a product.

but that's not a proper reason either - you can't just make up things that your offering to sell - like you can't make up things

like you can't sell a car with a selling point that it's a hovercar that can do 300mph but then in the "FUP" say this isn't actually a hovercar and it's top speed is actually only 100mph - we were only trying to make the car seem more attractive to the customer...

you just can't do this - it's false advertising - you can't say your giving UNLIMITED downloads but then say somewhere else your not actually allowed UNLIMITEd we're just saying that...


I know it's not that clear cut as no doubt if you cross the 250gb mark they'll still offer unlimited downloads but for every gig extra you have to pay extra too... it's a marketing ploy no doubt but there should be some form of extra regulation over the use of terms such as UNLIMITED or FREE etc etc etc...

naughto

250 gb a month is massive amount considering if you are downloading that much in a month then there is no way it is all legal i see nothing wrong with that( i dont want to hear people going about that ya shouldent be dowloading movies people do end of)

i myself am geting vodafone bb in this week as iam on the 02 dongle i have a very good connection with the dongle well over 1.5mb download and i can play xbox live host parties that lot its just the 15 gb cap that kills me hence the move to vodafone .i will have 55gb between the 2 a month and hope to have 8mb line from vodafone.i still have to pay the 02 as iam locked in a contract untill next april i think it is.so hes to downloading.

johnmcdnl

naughto wrote: »

250 gb a month is massive amount considering if you are downloading that much in a month then there is no way it is all legal i see nothing wrong with that( i dont want to hear people going about that ya shouldent be dowloading movies people do end of)

no one is saying it's not a huge amount or whatever - it's that it's not UNLIMITED as advertised...

if it was advertised as 250gb fine - but 250gb isn't UNLIMITED

that's the problem

also you obviously don't play video games as a demo for a game is usually well over 1GB so it's not hard to run up the numbers

Magnet: Rory

hightower1 wrote: »

Actually Magnet DO have an FUP as stated by their own rep here, they just haven't enforced it but can choose to do so at any time, so EVERY isp in Irl do have a FUP.
Any business in fact that offers something as "unlimited" has a FUP in place to stop people taking the mick be it "unlimited" texts with Meteor to "unlimited" refills of your soda in Subway.

Bandwidth like tangible goods costs money and no business model can support giving truly unlimited amounts of something away for a set price.

I understand that we have not nailed our position down on our FUP but a hierarchy needs to be established here.

By all accounts we have not invoked our FUP (despite some veeerry heavy users) and to be honest I don't even know what our FUP is (its literally never mentioned).

Potentially even a league table could be made to explain to the uninitiated.

ShaneU

ShaneU wrote: »

They do charge now. Speaking from experience.

If you're on one of their NGB packages, yes, they do. They simply don't charge you if you're on a regular package, though.

dub45

Magnet (Rory) wrote: »

I understand that we have not nailed our position down on our FUP but a hierarchy needs to be established here.

By all accounts we have not invoked our FUP (despite some veeerry heavy users) and to be honest I don't even know what our FUP is (its literally never mentioned).

Potentially even a league table could be made to explain to the uninitiated.

Do you mean a league table of dishonesty? And are the "uninitiated" those who are unaware that companies lie when they sell "unlimited" products.

No one asks any company to sell an "unlimited" product - they choose to do that themselves. If their networks cannot support such products then they simply should not sell them.

The fact that several companies choose to lie to their customers in no way justifies another company doing it and it is quite incredible to read people posting on here using that as a justification for UPC (and others) lying and deceiving potential and actual customers.

Once again if a company advertises an "unlimited" product and it has a cap (no matter what language is used to dress up that cap) that is a lie and people are being deliberatlely deceived:mad:

Magnet: Rory

dub45 wrote: »

Do you mean a league table of dishonesty? And are the "uninitiated" those who are unaware that companies lie when they sell "unlimited" products.

No one asks any company to sell an "unlimited" product - they choose to do that themselves. If their networks cannot support such products then they simply should not sell them.

The fact that several companies choose to lie to their customers in no way justifies another company doing it and it is quite incredible to read people posting on here using that as a justification for UPC (and others) lying and deceiving potential and actual customers.

Once again if a company advertises an "unlimited" product and it has a cap (no matter what language is used to dress up that cap) that is a lie and people are being deliberatlely deceived:mad:

Are you really including us here (literally never invoked our FUP)? I'm honestly just trying to be practical, lots of marketing nonsense is demystified on here so why not have something that sets out in a straightforward way what respective companies have behind their "unlimited" badges.

dub45

Magnet (Rory) wrote: »

Are you really including us here (literally never invoked our FUP)? I'm honestly just trying to be practical, lots of marketing nonsense is demystified on here so why not have something that sets out in a straightforward way what respective companies have behind their "unlimited" badges.

You suggested a league table and that's what any league table would be a league table of dishonesty. What respective companies have behind their "unlimited" badges is lies and deceit pure and simple.

Magnet: Rory

dub45 wrote: »

You suggested a league table and that's what any league table would be a league table of dishonesty. What respective companies have behind their "unlimited" badges is lies and deceit pure and simple.

Be that as it may it would still help people interperet the offers with a little more clarity.

In another sense it could even expose the nonsense use of the claim.

Ranicand

Magnet (Rory) wrote: »

Be that as it may it would still help people interperet the offers with a little more clarity.

In another sense it could even expose the nonsense use of the claim.

I am on the south side so I would not use Magnet as it comes down an Eircom line.

UPC have been great for me and I know the Magnet fibre to house is also great.

A fair usage policy is fine but it is the ISPs that call it unlimited.

250GB is a hell of a lot of bandwidth but some of us can use this much in a legal way.

UPC and Magnet have opened up great choice to users and most of us understand the need for a profit.

A bit of honesty stop calling products unlimited.

JonB

Businesses do this all the time. Read the small print blah blah. I understand the need to have a Fair Usage Policy in place but why not just say it as it is. I'm with UPC and they have always given me a good service. My real problem is if there ever is a problem and Im getting like a 1mb down and I ring them up to complain about how I should be getting 15mb. I constantly get "its only up to 15mb" thrown in my face and they expect me to be alright with that.