Documentary: A Conversation About Race

Leucifer

http://vodpod.com/watch/4089018-a-conversation-about-race

First off, let me say this has nothing to do with comparing various ethnic groups.

It focuses on how the term racism has become overused and is now often being applied to situations where it has no bearing.

I have to say I did find it very interesting as to what some people view as racism and often the double standards that can be experienced.

EDIT: Updated link, the site that was originally linked was a little controversial.

Crucifix

I have some misgivings about watching a documentary on racial issues hosted on "white nationalist tube".

LilMsss

I actually watched half of it before realising it was from a White Nationalist site! :eek:

I do agree that the term 'racism' is so overused, particularly in America, and political correctness has taken things a step too far, but at the same time, America is such a racially divisive society, as evidenced by American cultural products: news, media, film, TV etc, and by anyone who has visited the country. (Although that may well be my own personal experience of some US cities.)

Some of the points that the film maker makes are valid, as in the term racism being applied to situations that may not be actual cases of racism. I would assume that labelling so much of our interaction as culturally biased, or even racism devalues the true meaning of the term.

Leucifer

Crucifix wrote: »

I have some misgivings about watching a documentary on racial issues hosted on "white nationalist tube".

I never noticed

Still, though there are some valid points regardless. I'll try and find a non-controversial site it might be hosted on.

Leucifer

Ok, guys I have updated the original link to a regular site.

raah!

I think if everyone stuck to using racism in it's original meaning of "the belief that one race is superior to another" , and not just an umbrella term for any time anyone says anything negative or general about any race, then there would be alot less confusion.

I didn't watch the clip btw.

Denerick

There is a lot of woo associated with political correctness. What I have noticed, on the internet and in real life, that the only people who actually complain about the scale of political correctness are whom I would consider to be either prejudiced or bigots. Which leads me to ask, why is it only ever the bigots who complain about political correctness?

In a sense, political correctness is only relevant so long as a large proportion, perhaps the majority, of a population stand by it. Something is only politically incorrect if a large group of people deem it to be so.

I for one am happy that its difficult to get away in a social situation to call gay people 'fággots', or to call black people ****.

Leucifer

Denerick wrote: »

I for one am happy that its difficult to get away in a social situation to call gay people 'fággots', or to call black people ****.

There's no one complaining about serious terms such as the above, the documentary doesn't criticize any serious stuff like that. It's slating the habits of some people who see racism in cases where there is none at all. Did you even watch the clip?

For example, I had a friend who was called a racist for simply describing someone as black, as in a person asked "which one Emmanuel?" and he simply answered "the black guy over there" Seriously, talk about actively seeking offence, may I add the person accusing them was white. Would you class it as racism? According to your logic I'm a racist/bigot for simply complaining about it.

LilMsss

I think there's a difference between political correctness and self-censorship and so many people get the two concepts confused. One of the points made in the documentary was that the (white) interviewees often self-diagnosed their own racism.

This was done in some cases by noticing the race of someone and then automatically assuming that this was racist. One woman said she saw a black person walking down the street and said to herself, 'oh there's a black person'. This is not racist in any way!!! But yet this woman labels herself a racist because of it.

That's like someone describing me as the blonde girl, or me describing my sister-in-law as Chinese - noticing details, or describing some aspect of someone's appearance, whether or not some elements of that persons ethnicity come in to it or not, is not racism or discrimination and people need to remember that.

Killer Wench

Actually, the original definition of racism is the practice of hording and allocating resources to benefit one's race over the advancement of another race. However, it has evolved to mean the belief that one's race is superior to another race.

Anyhow, I find it interesting when non-Americans speak about the over usage of "racism" in the United States. By what standard are you basing your opinion? If you do not nor have never lived on a regular basis in the United States, are you comfortable speaking from authority about whether minorities in the US use the term too much?

Leucifer

Killer Wench wrote: »

Anyhow, I find it interesting when non-Americans speak about the over usage of "racism" in the United States. By what standard are you basing your opinion? If you do not nor have never lived on a regular basis in the United States, are you comfortable speaking from authority about whether minorities in the US use the term too much?

Where did I claim I'm speaking from authority about minorities in the US? Where did I say specifically that I'm referring to the US only? Also, I don't remember singling out minorities and claiming they are the only one's who can use the term out of context? There are plenty of people from various ethnic backgrounds and living in numerous nations who are capable of using the term where it doesn't apply.

The documentary might be based in the US, but it still had relevant points in regards to the mis-use of the term, not just in the US, but all walks of life. That's what interested me.

Killer Wench

Leucifer wrote: »

Where did I claim I'm speaking from authority about minorities in the US? Where did I say specifically that I'm referring to the US only? Also, I don't remember singling out minorities and claiming they are the only one's who can use the term out of context? There are plenty of people from various ethnic backgrounds and living in numerous nations who are capable of using the term where it doesn't apply.

The documentary might be based in the US, but it still had relevant points in regards to the mis-use of the term, not just in the US, but all walks of life. That's what interested me.

Leucifer, re-read this thread. You were not the one that singled out America, but LilMiss did state, "I do agree that the term 'racism' is so overused, particularly in America."

Leucifer

Killer Wench wrote: »

Leucifer, re-read this thread. You were not the one that singled out America, but LilMiss did state, "I do agree that the term 'racism' is so overused, particularly in America."

My apologies Killer Wench Might have helped to state that in your post though

Killer Wench

I was attempting to speak generally so as not to put anyone on defensive; more so, I want to put the particular position on spotlight.

As an alternative to the documentary, I would encourage people to take a listen to this broadcast from today's "Talk of the Nation" on our National Public Radio.

"How Have Discussions about Race Changed?"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129005355

Killer Wench

BTW, this documentary is so biased and so uninformed, it is ridiculous.

"So, Blacks are better at basketball than Whites but would you say Whites are better at human relations?"

Are you serious? Let's compare apples to apples. It isn't a double standard. I bet that if he asked if White people do better in nascar or golf the answers would have been different.

LilMsss

Killer Wench wrote: »

Leucifer, re-read this thread. You were not the one that singled out America, but LilMiss did state, "I do agree that the term 'racism' is so overused, particularly in America."

I didn't set out to 'single out' America specifically as a country dealing with issues of race and ethnicity, but since the documentary was American-made, and dealt with issues from an American perspective (albeit perhaps limited) and interviewed American subjects, I referred to America as an example.

Killer Wench wrote: »

Anyhow, I find it interesting when non-Americans speak about the over usage of "racism" in the United States. By what standard are you basing your opinion? If you do not nor have never lived on a regular basis in the United States, are you comfortable speaking from authority about whether minorities in the US use the term too much?

The last time I checked, I didn't require permission to express an opinion based on my own observation!!!

I don't claim to 'speak from authority' as you suggest, but have visited America on many occasions, have worked with Americans and have extensively studied trends from American cultural products, politics and media as part of my degree and Masters. If you re-read my earlier post, I stated:

LilMsss wrote: »

America is such a racially divisive society, as evidenced by American cultural products: news, media, film, TV etc, and by anyone who has visited the country. (Although that may well be my own personal experience of some US cities.)

In previous posts, you will see that I didn't make any statement concerning usage of the term racism in America by minorities, although subjects of many ethnicities were interviewed in the documentary, I was referring to one example of self-diagnosed racism mentioned in the documentary from a white woman but do not hold this up to represent the entire American population, and never made that claim. I seldom make sweeping statements, but instead try to refer to particular examples.

I have lived in the UK, a country with noted issues concerning racism and divisions based on ethnicity, and also Canada and Australia, two countries that continue to struggle with a legacy of racism and discrimination of their indigenous populations. Yet America is the only country I have spent time in, where race is such a hotly contested issue for a large proportion of the population (and not just ethnic minorities who have experienced racism and discrimination), and continues to dominate day-to-day interactions for many people.

I am not saying that race and racism are not issues in the UK or Canada etc, but they are not discussed or dissected to the same extent by populations in those countries as they are in America IMO.

Killer Wench

I had asked if you feel comfortable making a statement about usage when you have not lived in this country on a regular basis. I am not saying that you are not entitled to your opinion; I am asking if you feel comfortable making a determination that the term "racism" is being overused in America.

I do not disagree that the discussion of race is an incredibly divisive topic in the American discourse, but that is because there is a significant population of people who a) either deny its impact in today's world or b) are entirely too uncomfortable to engage in an honest and frank discussion on the subject of race. What you have observed is a collective denial on how to approach and resolve the discussion.

I cannot speak from the experience of living in Canada or Australia, but I can speak from living in the US as a female of color and I can say that racism can be seen on a daily basis. I do not believe the term is overused; I just believe that the discussion is far too complex for two minute sound bites.

Leucifer

Killer Wench wrote: »

BTW, this documentary is so unbiased and so uninformed, it is ridiculous.

"So, Blacks are better at basketball than Whites but would you say Whites are better at human relations?"

Are you serious? Let's compare apples to apples. It isn't a double standard. I bet that if he asked if White people do better in nascar or golf the answers would have been different.

Actually I think you misheard and missed the point of those questions completely. The question asked to the interviewee was "What would you say to someone who said blacks are better basketball players than whites on average?" It wasn't a claim.

If you listened carefully to the questions the whole point was to see if the interviewees were uncomfortable with saying one group is better than the other. They all answered it was true because blacks are better players.

Directly after they answered that question, he then asked considering their answer would it be fair to say that whites may be better at human relations. Notice how one completely dismisses the notion and the rest become uncomfortable and skirt around the question. But yet they had no problem saying straight out that blacks are better at basketball. Do you not see the difference?

Here's a Youtube clip of exactly what your criticizing and listen carefully to it this time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeU_5YmS_9E&feature=related

LilMsss

Killer Wench wrote: »

I had asked if you feel comfortable making a statement about usage when you have not lived in this country on a regular basis. I am not saying that you are not entitled to your opinion; I am asking if you feel comfortable making a determination that the term "racism" is being overused in America.

I do not disagree that the discussion of race is an incredibly divisive topic in the American discourse, but that is because there is a significant population of people who a) either deny its impact in today's world or b) are entirely too uncomfortable to engage in an honest and frank discussion on the subject of race. What you have observed is a collective denial on how to approach and resolve the discussion.

I cannot speak from the experience of living in Canada or Australia, but I can speak from living in the US as a female of color and I can say that racism can be seen on a daily basis. I do not believe the term is overused; I just believe that the discussion is far too complex for two minute sound bites.

When I suggested that the term racism is overused in America, I did not in any way mean that racism isn't a widely occuring issue for many, many people. Racism is very deeply engrained in US society, and it can be very complicated to explain the intricities of the issues surrounding it.

Racism in America is very real ... but the point I was trying to make was that while issues of race may be very widespread, each of these issues is not necessarily an act of racism - just as there are acts of racism that are far more serious than simply issues of race and ethnicity.

My background is media and I know how documentaries are constructed and agree with you that there are holes in the particular documentary under discussion. Documentaries by their very nature are products that are constructed: filmed, orchestrated, edited etc with a particular agenda or perspective to frame the subject being investigated.

As a docu-film, it leaves many questions unanswered, but I seriously doubt if most intelligent people would use it as the primary basis for their knowledge or discussion of the race issue in America or any other country.

Killer Wench

No, I did not miss the point. My argument is that people may feel comfortable saying that Blacks are better at playing basketball but if he asked if Whites are better at auto-racing or ice hockey or another predominately White sport in the US, people would have answered affirmatively that Whites are favored in these sports. Recent case, many Blacks were not tuned into the World Cup because it is not considered a sport that we "excel" at; those who did tune in, frequently rooted for the African teams which is an entirely different discussion.

We have associated certain sports with certain groups; are these stereotypes, of course, but it is what it is. (Whites play hockey. Blacks play basketball.)

There are different qualifiers to consider when asking if one is better at human relations. It is too broad of a term to actually have an honest dialogue on. Does human relations mean that a person is more diplomatic or more compassionate or more accepting? It is entirely too broad of a term for someone to be willing to jump at a "Yes" or "No" versus everyone knows what the goals and objectives of basketball are. It is rather narrow in its definiton.

He then says that it is acceptable to grant excellence to some races in certain areas but we "don't do that for Whites" which is incorrect. We frequently talk about how Whites are more likely to have higher and better credit scores than other populations; our entire construction of beauty is based upon a White standard.

Killer Wench

LilMsss wrote: »

Racism in America is very real ... but the point I was trying to make was that while issues of race may be very widespread, each of these issues is not necessarily an act of racism - just as there are acts of racism that are far more serious than simply issues of race and ethnicity.

This I completely agree with you on. I do believe that many of the people interviewed (or, at least those included in the video) confused classism and sexism with racism.

I question how he went about getting volunteers. He used Craigslist. I once posted an ad for a female roommate on CL and I received a response from a man asking if he could come to my place, dress up as a woman, and then have me boss him around while he cleaned my apartment with his tooth brush. It just usually has some very interesting characters on it.

condra

Did any of you guys actually watch the whole video?

It's nothing but white supremacist propaganda.

:mad:

LilMsss

condra wrote: »

Did any of you guys actually watch the whole video?

It's nothing but white supremacist propaganda.

:mad:

I watched about 40 minutes of it. Did you?

I don't think it's white supremacist propaganda, but for white supremacist groups it's something they can cling on to and interpret to support their own cause, whether or not the original film-maker intended this at all. (This would be why the link the OP initially posted was inadvertently from a White Nationalist channel but that it wasn't the only link to be found).

I don't believe that the film was made by white supremacists for white supremacists, but fundamentalists will always jump on something that they feel may strengthen their particular cause, and then skew certain aspects of it in their favour.

If it were an authentic documentary on race (as in one that seeks to reach a wide audience and be picked up and reproduced on major TV channels around the world) then experts from both sides would have been interviewed and a more thorough assessment of the situation offered (read more balance).

I believe the film-maker made a good attempt at a low-budget documentary on a topic he had conducted some research on, but overall it lacks the professionalism of most TV documentaries.

Penny Lane

Slight aside but did anyone else see that Gavin Henson said people were racist for calling him orange?? :eek: Now that really is confusing the meaning of racism you clever boy.

I stopped wathcing the documentary after about 10 mins as I thought it was quite one-sided but maybe I need to watch the whole thing before I can comment...

Zombrex

Leucifer wrote: »

Notice how one completely dismisses the notion and the rest become uncomfortable and skirt around the question. But yet they had no problem saying straight out that blacks are better at basketball. Do you not see the difference?

That was Kill's point. They aren't comparing apples and oranges. They should asked do you think whites, on average are better than blacks at ice hockey.

Not being good at basketball is not a bad thing. Being bad a human relations is, and it is stereotype that black people are bad at communication and are overly aggressive (look at how surprised some in America where that Obama could talk properly).

Racism is not purely saying that some race is better than another race. A naked black person is better at hiding in a dark place than a white person would be. That is not a racist statement, it is a fact based on the properties of the black person's skin. Equally it is not racist to say that black men are, on average, better at basketball because men of African decent are more likely to be tall than Europeans and being tall is a factor that will increase your skill at a game that favors tall people.

This guy really doesn't seem to have much notion as to what he is talking about to be honest.

PopUp

LilMsss wrote: »

I don't believe that the film was made by white supremacists for white supremacists,

I think you are wrong about that, to be honest. The Southern Poverty Law Centre (an anti-racist group) has a couple of blog posts which make it pretty clear where Craig Bodeker (the filmmaker)'s sympathies lie. This post outlines his links to white supremacist groups and how he's regularly described President Obama as a "monkey". This one goes into more detail on specific shortcomings of the documentary.

A conversation about race in America would be both neccessary and interesting but this video is NOT an appropriate starting point, IMO.

Leucifer

Killer Wench wrote: »

I question how he went about getting volunteers. He used Craigslist. I once posted an ad for a female roommate on CL and I received a response from a man asking if he could come to my place, dress up as a woman, and then have me boss him around while he cleaned my apartment with his tooth brush. It just usually has some very interesting characters on it.

Hmmm, this is interesting. Perhaps it explains some the answers of the interviewees? Forgive me, but I can't really think of a better way to phrase this, but perhaps a lot of the people that reply on Craiglist mightn't usually be the brightest?

condra wrote: »

Did any of you guys actually watch the whole video?

It's nothing but white supremacist propaganda.

:mad:

EDIT: I watched the entire thing. I personally wouldn't class the actual film as propaganda, but given the below links by Popup on remarks the filmmaker has made in other places, I can see your unease.

Killer Wench wrote: »

No, I did not miss the point. My argument is that people may feel comfortable saying that Blacks are better at playing basketball but if he asked if Whites are better at auto-racing or ice hockey or another predominately White sport in the US, people would have answered affirmatively that Whites are favored in these sports. Recent case, many Blacks were not tuned into the World Cup because it is not considered a sport that we "excel" at; those who did tune in, frequently rooted for the African teams which is an entirely different discussion.

We have associated certain sports with certain groups; are these stereotypes, of course, but it is what it is. (Whites play hockey. Blacks play basketball.)

There are different qualifiers to consider when asking if one is better at human relations. It is too broad of a term to actually have an honest dialogue on. Does human relations mean that a person is more diplomatic or more compassionate or more accepting? It is entirely too broad of a term for someone to be willing to jump at a "Yes" or "No" versus everyone knows what the goals and objectives of basketball are. It is rather narrow in its definiton.

He then says that it is acceptable to grant excellence to some races in certain areas but we "don't do that for Whites" which is incorrect. We frequently talk about how Whites are more likely to have higher and better credit scores than other populations; our entire construction of beauty is based upon a White standard.

Ah, ok. Sorry, but when I saw you going on about it being biased, I incorrectly assumed you meant it was done in favor of whites, as in touting whites are better at this that and the other aka supreme over other "races" That's why I was explaining the questions, not defending them. I happen to agree with you on the questions not reflecting accurate answers, I just misinterpreted what you were saying.

Penny Lane wrote: »

Slight aside but did anyone else see that Gavin Henson said people were racist for calling him orange?? :eek: Now that really is confusing the meaning of racism you clever boy.

I stopped wathcing the documentary after about 10 mins as I thought it was quite one-sided but maybe I need to watch the whole thing before I can comment...

Actually it's not that off-topic, at least it falls into the topic I thought I started. What he said is exactly the kind of stupid claims I'm talking about. The trouble is there are plenty more imbeciles who will claim racism in ridiculous scenarios like that.

Watch to at least the interviewees giving their own "personal experiences of racism" you'll see what I'm talking about and why I started this thread.

Again and for the last time as I'm getting sick of repeating myself. I didn't post the link to be a end all and be all discussion about racism and I will not claim the documentary has no flaws, because it does.

As I previously said, what fascinated me is how the term racism has come to be used and claimed in places where it clearly isn't. I'm specifically referring to the personal examples of racism given by some of those interviewees.

One black woman claimed an experience of racism was staff being overfriendly :rolleyes: A white woman said she became aware of "how racist" she is because she thought to herself 'theres a black person'

I find stuff like the above offensive to people who suffer real acts of racism, all it does is lighten the severity of the word and take away from where the real thing happens.

condra

What sickens me most about this video is the fact that they are using underhanded tactics. They are dressing up a piece of propaganda as an objective piece of journalism, which is certainly is not.

Try posting this video in the journalism forum and see how far you get.

I'm surprised and disappointed that this thread has not yet been locked.

Leucifer

PopUp wrote: »

I think you are wrong about that, to be honest. The Southern Poverty Law Centre (an anti-racist group) has a couple of blog posts which make it pretty clear where Craig Bodeker (the filmmaker)'s sympathies lie. This post outlines his links to white supremacist groups and how he's regularly described President Obama as a "monkey". This one goes into more detail on specific shortcomings of the documentary.

A conversation about race in America would be both neccessary and interesting but this video is NOT an appropriate starting point, IMO.

Now that is interesting to say the least. Condra I can see what you meant. It was not my intention to offended anyone, apologies to anyone that has been.

Leucifer

I'm still sticking by my points that the examples of racism that some of those people gave were not racism at all and that there are lots of people who see racism where it isn't. As said originally that why I posted. Because I think being labelled a racist in the modern day and age can be a very serious mark to have to over someones head, especially when said label is given incorrectly.

But given those links by Popup my opinion on this filmmaker has changed, Mods I'd appreciate this thread being locked at you leisure after some of the remarks he has made a thread with a film by him will only serve to cause offence.

My biggest apologies to those of you who think I was trying to stir up hatred by this thread, I wasn't, I was trying to get a simple discussion going.

condra

Leucifer I applaud your humility and I don't doubt your sincerity.

I do feel that a discussion about racism here in the humanities section could be worthwhile.