AAI Team management

IrishTrackFan1

Gillick hasn't become a bad athlete after one race, and a very strange race at that. He is our best 400m runner of all time and he can certainly improve his times and he can medal. The 400m is a unique event in terms of how it needs to be run at the highest level and he (and most of the others in the race) didn't get it right on the night. He's not jinxed, he's not a choker, he's not unlucky. All he needs to do is learn from this and move on, which I am sure he will do.
Would that the same could be same for the team management who screwed up the mens relay royally. The simple question to be asked here is who authorised the return home of the fifth man, leaving no fallback in the event of any incident such as the one that transpired. What other relay team decided that 4 was enough and that the fifth guy was not needed? None. McGonagle stands indicted on this and there is no squirming out of it and blaming the athlete.
And those of us around long enough can remember that it was controversy over the relays in 2000 that introduced us to the great man in a management role. Those who rightly talk up the performances of our development athletes in these championships should remember that Gillick, Hession and the other top line athletes were themselves in that development role in years gone by.
The structural issue that Derval refers to in her interviews is that HP, and to all intents and purposes that means McGonagle, is incapable of providing anything of value beyond that development role.
Abusing athletes before their races, as he is reported to have done in Barcelona, tells you all you need to know about a man who never did it himself and who can't deliver anything to those who are doing it.
The GAA got rid of him, he was banned before by BLE and maybe its time somebody stood up to him in AAI before he ruins another generation of athletes.

thirtyfoot

IrishTrackFan1 wrote: »

Gillick hasn't become a bad athlete after one race, and a very strange race at that. He is our best 400m runner of all time and he can certainly improve his times and he can medal. The 400m is a unique event in terms of how it needs to be run at the highest level and he (and most of the others in the race) didn't get it right on the night. He's not jinxed, he's not a choker, he's not unlucky. All he needs to do is learn from this and move on, which I am sure he will do.
Would that the same could be same for the team management who screwed up the mens relay royally. The simple question to be asked here is who authorised the return home of the fifth man, leaving no fallback in the event of any incident such as the one that transpired. What other relay team decided that 4 was enough and that the fifth guy was not needed? None. McGonagle stands indicted on this and there is no squirming out of it and blaming the athlete.
And those of us around long enough can remember that it was controversy over the relays in 2000 that introduced us to the great man in a management role. Those who rightly talk up the performances of our development athletes in these championships should remember that Gillick, Hession and the other top line athletes were themselves in that development role in years gone by.
The structural issue that Derval refers to in her interviews is that HP, and to all intents and purposes that means McGonagle, is incapable of providing anything of value beyond that development role.
Abusing athletes before their races, as he is reported to have done in Barcelona, tells you all you need to know about a man who never did it himself and who can't deliver anything to those who are doing it.
The GAA got rid of him, he was banned before by BLE and maybe its time somebody stood up to him in AAI before he ruins another generation of athletes.

Maybe we should have another thread for this <done>but yes I was shocked to read in the Times today that he was quoted as saying some athletes have been quietly told this is the end of their championship running. What gives him to power to ordain that? He is team manager and thats a job with a small scope, end of. Not chair of HP, not the HP Manager. Found that strange and a little worrying to read. IF you get a qualifying standard you should be allowed compete.

athlete123

Anyone have a link to this article?

drrunner

Tingle wrote: »

Maybe we should have another thread for this <done>but yes I was shocked to read in the Times today that he was quoted as saying some athletes have been quietly told this is the end of their championship running. What gives him to power to ordain that? He is team manager and thats a job with a small scope, end of. Not chair of HP, not the HP Manager. Found that strange and a little worrying to read. IF you get a qualifying standard you should be allowed compete.

Actually am glad I wasn't the only one who found that quote disturbing! Quiet words in athletes ears at what has to be a very difficult moment for them that they aren't wanted???? How can that be the right way of doing business (regardless of position held)? How about trying to help and support the athletes and sort the issues out rather than ditching them and attempting to publicly humiliate them! Unfortunately it appears to be consistent with the ongoing behaviour of a small, but signficicant minority of senior officials in the organisation.

sportinglegend

Link Here

Tangle2

Depends on who he said it to really. I would have little sympathy for Cragg if that was said to him. Jerry Kirnan would have slated him if his club was any other than Clonliffe - nothing against Clonliffe btw.

Take a look at some of the other elder statesmen in the team and you may see a championship tourist or two!! I would much rather see a younger athlete blooded at this level.

shels4ever

Tangle2 wrote: »

Depends on who he said it to really. I would have little sympathy for Cragg if that was said to him. Jerry Kirnan would have slated him if his club was any other than Clonliffe - nothing against Clonliffe btw.

Take a look at some of the other elder statesmen in the team and you may see a championship tourist or two!! I would much rather see a younger athlete blooded at this level.

Who? from what I can see it's been on of our youngest teams ever. Well in good saying send younger people but if they don't get the q times needed then this just doesnt work.

We can only send the people who qualify, Cragg asided I didn't see one team member not give 100% in any event.

TheRoadRunner

Tangle2 wrote: »

Take a look at some of the other elder statesmen in the team and you may see a championship tourist or two!! I would much rather see a younger athlete blooded at this level.

In fairness no young athletes really missed out on the chance to run in Barcelona. Maybe some could argue for relay 400 metres runners but I don't know enough about that situation to comment.

If I'm correct I think only Connolly was denied a place due to AAI revised qualifying times. I don't think there is one example of elder statesmen were included in the team ahead of younger athletes.

Tangle2

sportinglegend wrote: »

Link Here

No mention of abusing athletes by any team manager here? Anything more substantial to back up the claims other than the usual nonsense on here containing much insinuation and little substance?

thirtyfoot

sportinglegend wrote: »

Link Here

No thats not the one, its this one..

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0802/1224276043787.html

Tangle2

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

In fairness no young athletes really missed out on the chance to run in Barcelona. Maybe some could argue for relay 400 metres runners but I don't know enough about that situation to comment.

If I'm correct I think only Connolly was denied a place due to AAI revised qualifying times. I don't think there is one example of elder statesmen were included in the team ahead of younger athletes.

You are indeed correct. But we have a couple of guys who continuously qualify and finish in the bottom 5 or DNF. If the HP guys are being judged on championship performance then they won't want championship tourists? I'm not going to name them because I hate athlete bashing but before coming on here slating the team manager maybe review athletes performances over a number of championships

IrishTrackFan1

Tangle2 wrote: »

Depends on who he said it to really. I would have little sympathy for Cragg if that was said to him. Jerry Kirnan would have slated him if his club was any other than Clonliffe - nothing against Clonliffe btw.

Take a look at some of the other elder statesmen in the team and you may see a championship tourist or two!! I would much rather see a younger athlete blooded at this level.

Hard to argue re Cragg but thats not the point. Is McGonagle the one who decides this - its not in the job spec for Team Manager as far as I know. Have the HP Committee and the Board handed it all over to him? It seems to be so.
And by the way the abuse went further than what he was prepared to hint at in the paper. I won't post the other stuff I've heard but if true then the Board of AAI and the CEO need to tell us whether they stand by it or whether they are prepared to condemn it and act accordingly.
Difficulty here as always is the fear factor. If you're not Derval, how can you speak up when you know he controls your future as an international?
High Performance is sick, really really sick and until the issues are addressed we will continue at the current level of achievement, relying only on those who can figure out their own system of support to succeed.
I had great hopes that Ray Flynn, an athlete's man through and through, would be able to stand up to McGonagle but the word is that Foley is a big fan of McGonagle so change is unlikely.

TheRoadRunner

I know I slagged off Cork people in another thread (in jest may I add) about going on strike etc, but fair play to O'Rourke.

We need our stars to speak out against the AAI (or whatever organisation) when things are going well for them personally. If Gillick had of made the same complaints people would have told him to shut it.

Tangle2

IrishTrackFan1 wrote: »

Hard to argue re Cragg but thats not the point. Is McGonagle the one who decides this - its not in the job spec for Team Manager as far as I know. Have the HP Committee and the Board handed it all over to him? It seems to be so.
And by the way the abuse went further than what he was prepared to hint at in the paper. I won't post the other stuff I've heard but if true then the Board of AAI and the CEO need to tell us whether they stand by it or whether they are prepared to condemn it and act accordingly.
Difficulty here as always is the fear factor. If you're not Derval, how can you speak up when you know he controls your future as an international?
High Performance is sick, really really sick and until the issues are addressed we will continue at the current level of achievement, relying only on those who can figure out their own system of support to succeed.
I had great hopes that Ray Flynn, an athlete's man through and through, would be able to stand up to McGonagle but the word is that Foley is a big fan of McGonagle so change is unlikely.

Why are you giving Flynn a get out of jail card? Is he chair of high performance or a nodding dog? If he is an athletes man he'll stand up for what is right.

Look down through the team and you will only see one or two other guys that this could be applied to.

drrunner

Tangle2 wrote: »

You are indeed correct. But we have a couple of guys who continuously qualify and finish in the bottom 5 or DNF. If the HP guys are being judged on championship performance then they won't want championship tourists? I'm not going to name them because I hate athlete bashing but before coming on here slating the team manager maybe review athletes performances over a number of championships

Quite apart from the discussion and review of athlete performances, you're missing the point. Role of team manager is logistical i.e. make sure flights are booked appropriately, baggage gets there, athletes have pins etc. If/when it is appropriate to review and potentially exclude athletes from the team, this falls under normal circumstances under the remit of the Performance Director and any material decisions should be signed off by the HP Committee i.e. it is most certainly not the role of the team manager to unilaterally whisper in an athlete's ear that they are unwanted and it is most certainly wrong to communicate this via the national media within a day of the event ending (i.e. before there is a chance to have a considered review of performances and factors affecting performance). And I note, there has been no addressing yet as to why there were only three named athletes available for the 4x400m relay at 11pm on Friday night - with heats due to be run on the Saturday morning. This is a blatant failure by management and someone should be made accountable. This is not being negative - it is addressing the reality of the failings in the system. The High Performance athletes deserve support which is consistent with the standard to which they themselves have risen.

Tangle2

The team manager looks after a lot more than making sure the luggage arrives and the athletes have pins. :rolleyes:
I am sure the reason three thletes were named was due to the fact that they were hoping to get Gillick to run. What should he have done? Kicked him out onto the track kicking and screaming? Derval defended Gillicks decision not to run too.

You are correct in that its not ideal but who else in there is going to say something that demands a bit of back bone?

This thread will develop into more Donegal bashing and its a small bit boring at this stage. Fish'n'chips will be on here fighting soon I'd say!!

drrunner

Tangle2 wrote: »

The team manager looks after a lot more than making sure the luggage arrives and the athletes have pins. :rolleyes:
I am sure the reason three thletes were named was due to the fact that they were hoping to get Gillick to run. What should he have done? Kicked him out onto the track kicking and screaming? Derval defended Gillicks decision not to run too.

You are correct in that its not ideal but who else in there is going to say something that demands a bit of back bone?

This thread will develop into more Donegal bashing and its a small bit boring at this stage. Fish'n'chips will be on here fighting soon I'd say!!

The team manager role is one of logistics for the duration of the event - fact. This includes luggage, making sure athletes get to the line etc - it does not include making and causing to be published decisions which will have a profound impact on athletes future careers.

The reason only three athletes were named by 11pm on Friday night was that there was inadequate planning - firstly, only one sub was brought, secondly that sub flew home before the heats even took place, thirdly there was inadequate planning for different scenarios that were likely to arise, fourthly David Gillick was only asked to run the relay in the aftermath of his individual event disappointment (even though the timetable and various scenarios were known for months beforehand) - he had reasonably assumed that seeing as he wasn't asked before this that a different foursome would be running the heats and he would be brought in if they made the final (whether he should have stepped up to the plate at this point is a slightly different point ).

You take offence at reasonable criticism of team management - that's nothing to do with Donegal - I couldn't care less if the team manager comes from Timbuktu - he/she should be accountable for their performance relative to their remit regardless.

Tangle2

drrunner wrote: »

The team manager role is one of logistics for the duration of the event - fact. This includes luggage, making sure athletes get to the line etc - it does not include making and causing to be published decisions which will have a profound impact on athletes future careers.

The reason only three athletes were named by 11pm on Friday night was that there was inadequate planning - firstly, only one sub was brought, secondly that sub flew home before the heats even took place, thirdly there was inadequate planning for different scenarios that were likely to arise, fourthly David Gillick was only asked to run the relay in the aftermath of his individual event disappointment (even though the timetable and various scenarios were known for months beforehand) - he had reasonably assumed that seeing as he wasn't asked before this that a different foursome would be running the heats and he would be brought in if they made the final (whether he should have stepped up to the plate at this point is a slightly different point ).

You take offence at reasonable criticism of team management - that's nothing to do with Donegal - I couldn't care less if the team manager comes from Timbuktu - he/she should be accountable for their performance relative to their remit regardless.

I am well aware of the role of team manager. It is logistical but is demanding to do to a decent level. Your description of it belittles the importance of the role.

On this forum there is continuous criticism of the team manager. He is blamed for all the ills in irish athletics. Why did the Chair of High Performance not have the stipulation in place that Gillick was bound to run the heats? The team manager cannot make that decision. Why did the selectors (of whom there are more than one) not include more than one sub?
After all we never had a chance of reaching the final without him.

You don't seem to want to apportion blame anywhere except at the door of the team manager.

toomuchdetail

I think we agree in general that when David Gillick /Devral O'Rourke et al say they have problems with the set up the powers that be should listen .
After all big events there seems to be a publicty around the admin/sturcture of the governing bodies but nothing changes OCI/FAI come to mind.
Not familiar with how these guys get into these roles but do local clubs elect them, are there open meetings where there guys are nominated or like everything else in this great little country is it a closed shop structure and its a job for life ?

thirtyfoot

Tangle2 wrote: »

I am well aware of the role of team manager. It is logistical but is demanding to do to a decent level. Your description of it belittles the importance of the role.

On this forum there is continuous criticism of the team manager. He is blamed for all the ills in irish athletics. Why did the Chair of High Performance not have the stipulation in place that Gillick was bound to run the heats? The team manager cannot make that decision. Why did the selectors (of whom there are more than one) not include more than one sub?
After all we never had a chance of reaching the final without him.

You don't seem to want to apportion blame anywhere except at the door of the team manager.

There is criticism but from only a few posters with obvious agendas, drrunner is not the worst for that.

On this topic, do you believe the team manager should be able to make such decisions and tell the press about it? That's what I'd like to see discussed.

drrunner

Tangle2 wrote: »

I am well aware of the role of team manager. It is logistical but is demanding to do to a decent level. Your description of it belittles the importance of the role.

On this forum there is continuous criticism of the team manager. He is blamed for all the ills in irish athletics. Why did the Chair of High Performance not have the stipulation in place that Gillick was bound to run the heats? The team manager cannot make that decision. Why did the selectors (of whom there are more than one) not include more than one sub?
After all we never had a chance of reaching the final without him.

You don't seem to want to apportion blame anywhere except at the door of the team manager.

Good point re the selectors - they too carry some of the responsibility for the relay debacle absolutely. In terms of the direct hands on responsibility in Barcelona, the President and CEO (who were there) actually don't have any role - they are there is a "representative" capacity. However, I agree that they have responsibility in ensuring long term that people are held to account for their actions.

I have no interest in "blaming" anyone - just in hoping that by recognising and facing up to failures by management that things will improve - whether that's through the replacement of the team manager or other means - my only interest is in not reading similar coverage about the failings in the system when we get to the next championships.

downthemiddle

There are a number of issues that have arisen from Barcelona.
Who was responsible for the relay debacle? Why was there such a breakdown in communication between the athletes and management?
Who has given the team manager the authority to play judge and jury on athletes futures when there is a selection committee? Is it within his remit to make such decisions? Was his statement to the media authorised by the president or the CEO?
Derval's criticism goes well beyond issues in Barcelona. It is a statement about how the sport is run in this country. It reflects her anger that she has nowhere to train during the winter, that we have yet to build a suitable indoor arena. I was in Santry one Saturday during the winter and Derval and Ailis were unable to use the indoor strip because the Irish ladies bobsleigh team were training there. It is a criticism of the system that has given us debacles such as the CEO court case. It is a criticism of the system that has meant her training partner Ailis McSweeney received no funding for the last three years. It is a criticism of the system that meant that her coach Sean Cahill had to travel to Berlin last year at his own expense. It is a criticism of the system the meant that our female athletes had different qualifying criteria for the World Juniors to our male athletes.
Unfortunately the likes of Derval and Ciara Mageean make it more difficult to change this system. As long as we have talented individuals who succeed despite the system those in power will be able to point at their success and fool themselves and others that all is well in the world of athletics.

plodder

downthemiddle wrote: »

I was in Santry one Saturday during the winter and Derval and Ailis were unable to use the indoor strip because the Irish ladies bobsleigh team were training there.

Is that not a simple scheduling problem? Presumably, neither the bobsleigh team nor Derval & co need fulltime access to the facility?

Fish'n'Chips

Tangle2 wrote: »

The team manager looks after a lot more than making sure the luggage arrives and the athletes have pins. :rolleyes:
I am sure the reason three thletes were named was due to the fact that they were hoping to get Gillick to run. What should he have done? Kicked him out onto the track kicking and screaming? Derval defended Gillicks decision not to run too.

You are correct in that its not ideal but who else in there is going to say something that demands a bit of back bone?

This thread will develop into more Donegal bashing and its a small bit boring at this stage. Fish'n'chips will be on here fighting soon I'd say!!

Since you were looking for me I thought I'd make an appearance

Bit of paranoia there about Donegal bashing methinks. McGonagle is the Team Manager so at the end of the day the responsibility of any logistical screw ups like those that come about such as the men's 4x4 farce falls at his doorstep. Huge opportunity of a top 6 European placing missed there.

Coupled with the way he talks to and talks about the athletes he is supposed to be managing the man is fast becoming (or is that has become?) a complete disgrace. He's basically the equivalent of an out of control, power tripping Steve Staunton trying to run an athletics team.

Last year we got his infamous Berlin blog, this year we had the relay balls-up, what can we look forward to from the great man in Daegu 2011? Fair play to Derval O'Rourke for standing up and saying what 99% of Irish athletes think but are afraid to say.

IrishTrackFan1

Tingle wrote: »

There is criticism but from only a few posters with obvious agendas, drrunner is not the worst for that.

On this topic, do you believe the team manager should be able to make such decisions and tell the press about it? That's what I'd like to see discussed.

The team manager should not be making these decisions (see this mornings papers for an even stronger stance by the team manager) and to make them while the event is still on beggars belief - I am inclined to think there are two factors at play here - one is the disappointment McGonagle feels over Cragg who he promoted very heavily and second is a desire to deflect attention from the relay debacle which is very simply his responsibility and for which he should be judged.

slowshortweak

I'd have thought it was the Selection Committee who should be setting criteria for selection and then explaining their reasons for selection/deselection to the relevant athlete in a calm and reasonable manner.
Summary judgments by the Team manager are inappropriate and completely out of line. And to do so publicly is a disgrace.
Can you imagine the Ireland rugby Team officials behaving like this? They have a process for reviewing performance and selection in the next squad is based on this review which gets carried out in a structured way. McGonagle is behaving like a fan in a vox pop interview for a tabloid rag. He needs to review his own behaviour and modify it.

mitresize5

slightly off topic here but it is hardly a coincidence that the sport that achieves most in this country with the amount of resources at its disposal is also the best administered behind the scenes i.e. rugby. The same could be said about amatuer boxing although they have had their own problems recently

I have a passing interest in all sports and it continues to amaze me how any Irish athlete every wins anything with the continual bickering that inevitably emerges after every championship. It makes their achievments all the more admirable.

horsebox1977

Maybe this quote was taken out of context (maybe not).
Surely McGonagle wouldnt have the authorization to sanction this espeacially at such short notice.
i can only assume that this is only directed at Cragg.

myflipflops

He states (directly quoted in the Times, not referenced) that there are athletes that have been spoken to about maybe this being the end of the road. If I was an athlete training hard to make these champs and he said it to me, I would have put him on the floor. If the AAI thinks they aren't good enough then raise the bar on standard.

McGonagle also talks about 'medal-zone' athletes. Here's a direct quote:

You’d need to be going with some hope, probability or possibility that you’ll medal in London

Does he realise how few athletes that leaves us with??? Off the top of my head - Derval, Gillick, Heffernan & Loughnane. That's it. There are no other Irish within the realms of an Olympic medal unless Ciara Magaeen fulfills her potential in an unexpected timeframe. So is he talking about cutting EVERYBODY else? It's a comment that has no semblance in reality.

Narrowing it down to medals is simply following on on the media perception of the sport. It ignores lots of factors including very important things like continuous improvements in standards in certain events rather than aiming for the 'medal-zone' and ignoring all else.

I found most of what he was quoted as saying in the IT yesterday quite disconcerting. I have also heard too many first hand stories about his attitude towards athletes, especially those out of form.

IrishTrackFan1

myflipflops wrote: »

He states (directly quoted in the Times, not referenced) that there are athletes that have been spoken to about maybe this being the end of the road. If I was an athlete training hard to make these champs and he said it to me, I would have put him on the floor. If the AAI thinks they aren't good enough then raise the bar on standard.

McGonagle also talks about 'medal-zone' athletes. Here's a direct quote:

You’d need to be going with some hope, probability or possibility that you’ll medal in London

Does he realise how few athletes that leaves us with??? Off the top of my head - Derval, Gillick, Heffernan & Loughnane. That's it. There are no other Irish within the realms of an Olympic medal unless Ciara Magaeen fulfills her potential in an unexpected timeframe. So is he talking about cutting EVERYBODY else? It's a comment that has no semblance in reality.

Narrowing it down to medals is simply following on on the media perception of the sport. It ignores lots of factors including very important things like continuous improvements in standards in certain events rather than aiming for the 'medal-zone' and ignoring all else.

I found most of what he was quoted as saying in the IT yesterday quite disconcerting. I have also heard too many first hand stories about his attitude towards athletes, especially those out of form.

His Osaka and Beijing blogs were available to anyone who cared to follow them and they proved the point you are making, and straight from his own hand. And its not just the out of form athletes. Kilkenny, Treacy, Kirwan, Foley, McGonagle and Devlin all see Derval as an awkward b**** because she speaks her mind, and not just when she is doing well.

And what she says is very simple - that none of them are world class at what they do, and nor do they have the desire or ability to bring in any world class capability to make a difference in HP. Imagine if Sonia or Eamonn were in Barcelona to help the athletes! Imagine if a world class coach with success at that level was part of our team as opposed to a par time triathlon coach. Why isn't Mark McCabe our physio instead of Nessa Smyth? Why do the Cahills stay a million miles away from anything to do with AAI officialdom?

McGonagle was chosen by an interview panel that comprised Foley, Devlin, Kirwan and a Paralympics representative (ironic that, given McGonagle's expressed disdain for that aspect of our sport) - no woman, no volunteer - and I can't see how he can be displaced before London so we should perhaps accept the reality and hopefully things might improve after 2012 if he steps down.

thirtyfoot

I think Gillick has been scapegoated by the management. If I was a Team Manager this is the story I would have put out. Granted I have no international athletics management experience but was addicted to Championship Manager for years and manage professional people for a living in a 'successfull' environment that makes a fair few bob for our bosses:)

"It was never intended for David to run the heat. A situation arose that David McCarthy had to leave for understandable family reason. We approached Gillick late on Friday night but when talking to him found he was in no fit state to compete as he had taken the defeat in the race badly. With David's welfare as an athlete foremost in our mind we felt it was better to not ask him to run in the heats. At this stage Steven Colvert said he would step up and compete and fill the void despite never doing a serious 400m before. He acquitted himself superbly despite this and ran 48.27. It was a serious oversight by the selectors and team management to not envisage this situation and bring an extra athlete on the squad. If we had done this, this problem would never had arisen"

Now, that may not have been exactly what happened but what it would do would exonerate David McCarthy, exonerate David Gillick and put Steven Colvert into some place of being a hero (which he is in someways). The management and faceless selectors would take the heat and the athletes would not be slated, Gillick for letting his country down (which is bull****) and Colvert for running crap (which is also bull****). Internal discipline could have taken place if required and team meetings with the athletes on the relay team etc to smooth things over if there was issues as undoubtedly some of the other members may have been justifyably pissed off. As things stand, Gillick is pissed off, the other team members are pissed off and team management are blaming one athlete in the media. But hey, in the end, it isn't all about the athletes. Just a pity there was no blog this year to have got the real insight. This could and should be the end of his term as team manager. A disasterous situation. There is time now to get someone in for Worlds next year and the London. Its a time for action. Lets see.