Croke park too big, Aviva too small.

liammur

After watching many games on TV, including this weekend, 4 teams playing on sat and sun, neither near capacity and no atmosphere on TV.

Croke park is far too big and the aviva is too small.

Typical Iriah planning!

amcalester

What has the Aviva stadium got to do with anything, GAA isn't played there.

spider guardian

Croker isn't too big for the finals, tickets can't be got for love nor money!

Diabhal Beag

You can hardly expect All-Ireland Final crowds for Quarter Finals.

liammur

There's no atmosphere in croker on tv, maybe they should just use it for the 2 finals and have the other games in far smaller venues like parnell park, tullamore, thurles etc

2qk4u

liammur wrote: »

There's no atmosphere in croker on tv, maybe they should just use it for the 2 finals and have the other games in far smaller venues like parnell park, tullamore, thurles etc

If you want atmosphere then go to the games, that will help with the attendance levels.

Raedwald

liammur wrote: »

There's no atmosphere in croker on tv, maybe they should just use it for the 2 finals and have the other games in far smaller venues like parnell park, tullamore, thurles etc

A few years the crowds would of been much bigger, mainly due to the support of the Dublin team. I think with this good run by the Dublin, the bandwagoners will be returning soon enough. Also the price of tickets for the matches, as has been discussed elsewhere, would be a factor in keeping people away from matches.

The lack of good quality games as well would be another factor. A 64 nil match with very few well known players wouldnt exactly be good for the atomsphere.
Personally I felt that the atomsphere in croker on both days was very good, mainly due to the closeness of the games in the dubs v tyrone and kildare v meath meatches.

Also regional grounds like parnell park, tullamore, navan etc are far too small to be hosting these games. Pretty sure there is an agreemment to play all games in Croker as well from the Quarter finals on.

liammur

Are you crazy?

Would cost me over €100 to have gone to a match in croker when my team wasn't even playing

Flukey

liammur wrote: »

Are you crazy?

Would cost me over €100 to have gone to a match in croker when my team wasn't even playing

Strange. It is costing me a total of €99 to go to both quarter-final days and both football semi-final days. That is through the Football Feast deal that the GAA have and which I have got for the second year running. So you see it can be done considerably cheaper.

Your county does not have to be playing for you to have an interest. The fact that you said you were watching on tv proves that you actually do. My county was guaranteed only one of those four days, though having won on Saturday unexpectedly, they will be there for a second one, but I am still prepared to go. I am a Dublin fan, but first and foremost I am a GAA fan, so all matches have an interest to me. You can see it on TV any time and many times, but you can only have ever been their once. So as was said, if you want atmosphere, then go to the games.

liammur

All depends on where you are travelling from.
It would cost me virtually nothing to go to the gaelic grounds, but I would expect it would cost someone from say Sligo a bit more.

danmanw8

Flukey wrote: »

Strange. It is costing me a total of €99 to go to both quarter-final days and both football semi-final days. That is through the Football Feast deal that the GAA have and which I have got for the second year running. So you see it can be done considerably cheaper.

Your county does not have to be playing for you to have an interest. The fact that you said you were watching on tv proves that you actually do. My county was guaranteed only one of those four days, though having won on Saturday unexpectedly, they will be there for a second one, but I am still prepared to go. I am a Dublin fan, but first and foremost I am a GAA fan, so all matches have an interest to me. You can see it on TV any time and many times, but you can only have ever been their once. So as was said, if you want atmosphere, then go to the games.

It was obvious from the first line that you were a Dublin fan. The 31 other counties have the cost of getting to Dublin!!

Qwerty27

Special tickets available for both days of quarter finals and both semi finals for €99, so €25 a day....excellent value for 4 days entertainment....who much do people expect to pay?

An avaerage gig for abouts an hours performance is about €35 at the least. People use ticket prices as an excuse not to attend....a lot of time the same people who will pay gus of €50 or €60 to see man united paly a meaningless friendly in the aviva or even Ireland Argentina where there is absolutely nothing at stake!

wow sierra

There was no atmosphere on TV? big deal. I can assure you there was a fantastic atmosphere in the ground. Sometimes when you see the top decks with very few in them it looks sort of bare on TV. When you are at the game you aren't aware of it at all.

I could feel the atmosphere in the place even for the minor game (Cork v Armagh Sunday) - I only saw about the last 20 mins or so but it was a brilliant game - some great scores from both sides. There were probably not much more than 25,000 at the early stages of the Roscommon Cork game but I can assure you there was atmosphere.

County players want to play in Croke Park when it gets to the business end of the Championship. For supporters the facilities are great - the bar/food areas are great for mingling before games/ at intervals etc. Its a brilliant facility and it should be used as often as possible. As I said when you are there the atmosphere isn't bad at all even when there is a small crowd - what it looks like on TV is of no importance.

EKRIUQ

Maybe if the finished off the stadium and got rid of Hill16, then we would have some chance of a decent atmosphere. To me Croke park just looks like a stadium not finished.

liammur

i'd agree, a bit like the aviva stadium, 1 end of it is very disappointing.

Flukey

danmanw8 wrote: »

It was obvious from the first line that you were a Dublin fan. The 31 other counties have the cost of getting to Dublin!!

This is the usual pathetic excuse wheeled out. Dublin fans have to travel too. Our travel is not for free. There are parts of Kildare, Wicklow and Meath nearer to Croke Park than parts of Dublin. As we commonly hear in other spheres of life, not all Dublin fans live in Dublin. How often do we hear things like "Half of Dublin lives in Wexford"? So there are lots of Dublin fans travelling to Croke Park from a long way outside Dublin too. It's pensioners, not pensioners and Dublin people that have free travel in this country. There is no free petrol for Dublin car-owners either, believe it or not. Incredible, isn't it? Don't forget too, that a lot of the fans of other counties live in Dublin. So you could have a Dublin fan travelling from Kerry to see a match and a Kerry fan travelling from Dublin to see a match. Feel free to replace Kerry with any of the other 30 counties, as it equally applies.

We also have the other costs that non-Dubliners seem to think that are exclusively their own. Believe it or not, Dublin people have to eat on match days. Shocking isn't it? Another amazing fact is that so do our children. I'll give you a moment to get off the floor at hearing that earth-shattering revelation, but I can assure you it is true. Not only that, we have to pay the same rip-off prices for food and drink on match day too. No discounts for Dubs unfortunately.

So, the next time you are in Croke Park, take a few minutes to have a look before you go in and you will find that there aren't a million people living on Jones' Road and Clonliffe Road. Most Dubliners live a lot farther away, including other parts of Ireland and even further away than that. As you pass through the streets of Dublin look out for the flags of other counties flying outside ordinary homes, where natives of other counties live, very convenient for going to matches in Croke Park. If you are really sharp-sighted you may even catch sight of a Dublin fan eating and drinking something, and yes, you may even see their children doing so too. So despite the misconception you and many others have, it can cost a lot for some Dublin fans to go to a match in Croke Park, beyond the ticket price and there are a lot of fans of other counties that can do it cheaper.

liammur

There's elements of truth in that.

But you need to realise, it's FAR more costly for the likes of Kerry people to travel and probably a 5 hour journey each way.

Flukey

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Maybe if the finished off the stadium and got rid of Hill16, then we would have some chance of a decent atmosphere. To me Croke park just looks like a stadium not finished.

That can't be done because of the railway line and houses that are behind it. Also, they cut in at an angle, which is why the Hogan Stand side of that end is narrower than the Cusack Stand side. Have a look at a satellite shot of Croke Park.

Croke Park from above.

The practicalities and logistics of doing it aren't feasible, and the residents don't want to sell their houses anyway. So Croke Park is finished. It is actually nice having an open end to the ground. It can actually add to the atmosphere in some ways and then there is the availability of light and air into the ground. Not so good on wet days for fans, but overall it is better than an enclosed ground. It is nice having a terrace filled with people, and not just when Dublin are playing. A terrace has its own kind of atmosphere that would be lost if there was a stand there. The Canal End terrace, which I spent many a day on, was lost in the redevelopment and the stadium as a whole has lost some of the character of the older Croke Park. So having a terrace retains at least some of that. It would be a sad day for Croke Park if it ever did go.

Flukey

liammur wrote: »

There's elements of truth in that.

But you need to realise, it's FAR more costly for the likes of Kerry people to travel and probably a 5 hour journey each way.

There is more than an element of truth in it. As I said, a lot of Dublin people do long journeys too and have all the other expenses. Now I know the traffic can be bad in Dublin, but I don't think it would take a Kerry fan 5 hours to get from his house in Rathmines to Croke Park, but it would for the Dublin fan trying to get from his house in Dingle to Croke Park. We all know too (seeing as we are dealing in misconceptions), that Kerry fans only ever travel for the final, so a lot of them will have had a very cheap year. Down did a lot of them a favour.

Keeping up the misconceptions, did you not know that the Dublin fans based in Dublin all got to Killarney for the league game in February for absolutely free, and due to the teleporting machines they all have, it took them a fraction of a second to do so? Not one single one of them ate or drank all weekend either. For those that decided to stay, they all found free accommodation. It was the exact same for all of their other away games too. I have to tell you that it is wonderful being a GAA fan from Dublin knowing that our passion does not cost us one single cent from one end of the year to the other. Recession, what recession?

Magill

there was a great atmosphere at the games on saturday... maybe you actually have to be there. It is a big stadium and too expect there to be a full ground for the 1/4's is unrealistic, especially considering that tickets are shared between 4 counties and not the normal 2... most of the dubs and tyrone supporters didnt start arriving till the later part of the second half of the down/kerry game and alot of the down kerry supporters left early in the second game. Both games had a great atmosphere imo, because both games were very easy on the eyes imo.

liammur

Flukey,
if dublin fans don't go to croke park for a q-final v tyrone, they ain't going to killarney for a league game. To think othewise is simply delusional.

The same applies to Kerry and all others. Dublin fans are no better or worse supporters than any other county.

Justin10

Firstly Hill 16 is imo what adds hughly to the atmosphere in croke park, of course when Dublin are playin but even when they aint, look at the Kildare fans yesterday on it.

Secondly, the last time Dublin played away from Croke Park in a big game was against Kerry in Thurles. I didnt see a problem selling that out. Croke park is perfect size.

For Aviva stadium, I couldnt care less.

liammur

They should play some gaa matches in the aviva, like the q-final and semi finals,when croker wudn't be near full, and then the rugby boys could fill out croker for england and france.

Trampas

liammur wrote: »

They should play some gaa matches in the aviva, like the q-final and semi finals,when croker wudn't be near full, and then the rugby boys could fill out croker for england and france.

Is Lansdowne road even big enough to hold a gaa game?

liammur

Well take saturday for example
dublin v tyrone, down v kerry (4 of the biggest names in football)

Was there 50,000 at it between the 4 counties ?

Todd Gack

liammur wrote: »

Was there 50,000 at it between the 4 counties ?

62,749.

delta_bravo

Trampas wrote: »

Is Lansdowne road even big enough to hold a gaa game?

I dont think so. Pitch would be too short

liammur

62,000, that's interesting

so about 15,000 fans each. Probably about average all season.

Flukey

liammur wrote: »

Flukey,
if dublin fans don't go to croke park for a q-final v tyrone, they ain't going to killarney for a league game. To think othewise is simply delusional.

The same applies to Kerry and all others. Dublin fans are no better or worse supporters than any other county.

A lot fans did go to Killarney for that league game. I didn't myself due to other commitments. I would have gone, but I know a lot that did. As to your last line, that should be taken, framed in gold and hung somewhere where all non-Dubs can see it. It is rare such a statement is seen from a non-Dub, but very true. We are no better or worse. We do have our expenses and make the commitment, financial and other, to support our various teams, be they club or county in the different codes and age grades. We do have sunshine fans, but many genuine ones, who'll be seen supporting Dublin throughout the year. We do travel to away games. All we are accused of can be levelled against every other county too.

Rochey18 wrote: »

Secondly, the last time Dublin played away from Croke Park in a big game was against Kerry in Thurles. I didnt see a problem selling that out. Croke park is perfect size.

We played in Derry and Longford in the championship since those two games in Thurles, and had a match in Parnell Park too, our first home game in many years. Who knows when we will next get one?

Morninglory

liammur wrote: »

i'd agree, a bit like the aviva stadium, 1 end of it is very disappointing.

Croke park three years ago was certainly not too big. That year all Dublin football games were near capacity while the hurling quarter finals got 70,000, semi final got 80,000 while both Irelands were sold out.

liammur

I remember 25,000 being at a league match in the gaelic grounds between limk and clare not all that long ago. The interest doesn't seem to be there now, the gaelic grounds hasn't seen a match of any importance in at least 5 years i'd say. The gaa should be doing a bit more regionally as there's no doubt munster rugby have completely swamped limerick and possibly clare too.

popebenny16

been looking for a photo i had years ago from Hogan Stand Mag, around 1992 i think, which had the original model the architects used to sell the idea, the plan at the time was for Hill 16 to be in line with the lower tier of the C ring and flush with it straight across the end line at the railway end.

the plans for the hill were redesigned as a compromise during the building and planning phases, i think due to objections, in fact the pitch was made bigger and we were left with the odd design it is now. The alterations included the building of the stadium control building as well, which ruins that end alltogether. the initial idea was to have it all seater as well.

googling away i noticed that the GAA are now putting their minds to a new masterplan, something that was alluded to in the irish independent today, as they feel that the current stadium may be outdated in 2020. What they can or will do in that will be interesting.

namloc1980

This one?

Diabhal Beag

Hopefully put a roof on the hill at least

nice_guy80

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Hopefully put a roof on the hill at least

but leave it as a terrace
gives a cheaper option for most games and i prefer standing at games

cson

Hey sure we'll have the spanking new 60k Pairc Uí Chaoimh in a few years and that'll fit the bill nicely - the Dubs will actually have to travel then shock horror :P

namloc1980

cson wrote: »

Hey sure we'll have the spanking new 60k Pairc Uí Chaoimh in a few years and that'll fit the bill nicely - the Dubs will actually have to travel then shock horror :P

That 60k seater stadium plan is crazy. No need for it at all.

Syferus

liammur wrote: »

62,000, that's interesting

so about 15,000 fans each. Probably about average all season.

That was Saturday only. Sunday was over 47,000, with mostly stay-away Cork fans (hurling semi this week). As a Roscommon fan I can honestly say the atmosphere during Roscommon vs. Cork match was electric, and things got no worse when Kildare vs. Meath was on. TV can easily fool you into thinking a stadium is dead because it's giving you a bird's eye view of a huge stand all the time and any gaps are as clear as day. For the people there, the stadium was perfect.

liammur

syfreus, a few have said that alright.

I must agree with the idea that a 60,000 seater for cork is madness. Look at the situation in limerick, 50,000 stadium and it never gets any games.

popebenny16

namloc1980 wrote: »

This one?

this is indeed the one. in this design the hill was to be seated, but it could have worked as a standing area as well. i know there were objections and that although they were about the hill they could have held up the canal end, but i cannot remember exactly what went down.

maybe for 2020 they will be able to redo the hill end like that pic, but i think the pitch being made bigger then it was supposed to be may have scuppered that.

edit to ad: there was some design change in the roof as well, the hogan roof sticks out further than the other two sides, which was done because apparently the GAA could suddenly afford it. The fact that had the ard coirle (sp) seats been under the other roofs would mean the lads would get wet has nothing to do with it of course.

cc87

liammur wrote: »

They should play some gaa matches in the aviva, like the q-final and semi finals,when croker wudn't be near full, and then the rugby boys could fill out croker for england and france.

No they shouldnt.
People play football and hurling all their lives with a hope that they could play in Croke Park someday.
Fans from some of the less successful counties love that chance they get every now and then to watch their team play in Croke park.

So what if Croke Park is half empty or 2 thirds empty, it symbolizes far more than the Aviva Stadium ever will.

delta_bravo

cc87 wrote: »

No they shouldnt.
People play football and hurling all their lives with a hope that they could play in Croke Park someday.
Fans from some of the less successful counties love that chance they get every now and then to watch their team play in Croke park.

So what if Croke Park is half empty or 2 thirds empty, it symbolizes far more than the Aviva Stadium ever will.

Agree there. Like every year the Junior Club Championship Finals are held in Croker usually in front of maybe 2,000 or 3,000 specatators. The players dont care, its about having the opportunity to play there. A few years ago an English based team got to a club final in Croker, I can only imagine what an experience it was for them.

Daysha

popebenny16 wrote: »

edit to ad: there was some design change in the roof as well, the hogan roof sticks out further than the other two sides, which was done because apparently the GAA could suddenly afford it. The fact that had the ard coirle (sp) seats been under the other roofs would mean the lads would get wet has nothing to do with it of course.

:eek: is that seriously the reason why it's like that?! I've always wondering about that, looking at Croker from Google Earth gives you a good impression of the differences in the roof. That's mad altogether...

singingstranger

liammur wrote: »

neither near capacity [...] the aviva is too small.

I think I get where you're coming from but how do you extrapolate that the Aviva is too small if it couldn't be filled on Saturday and won't be again tonight?

liammur wrote: »

They should play some gaa matches in the aviva, like the q-final and semi finals,when croker wudn't be near full, and then the rugby boys could fill out croker for england and france.

Aside from the fact that the Aviva is physically too small (as has been well documented in pitch sizes; that's a reason why Thomas Davis couldn't go in Tallaght), that hamstrings the occasional glamour tie. Cork and Dublin in two weeks will be pretty much full. The Dubs and Meath put 75,000 in there a couple of years ago for a Leinster quarter-final. There's easily enough appetite to keep Croker; it's just unfortunate that this year a combination of fringe teams and empty pockets has kept it quieter.

Daysha wrote: »

:eek: is that seriously the reason why it's like that?! I've always wondering about that, looking at Croker from Google Earth gives you a good impression of the differences in the roof. That's mad altogether...

Doesn't it also have something to do with the fact that the rain is more inclined to blow over from that direction, and that the longer roof covers the Ard Comhairle area so that President McAleese et al don't get wet?

Bluetonic

singingstranger wrote: »

Doesn't it also have something to do with the fact that the rain is more inclined to blow over from that direction, and that the longer roof covers the Ard Comhairle area so that President McAleese et al don't get wet?

No it's purely down to the fact that for every extra meter of roof it was IEP£2m which was not deemed cost effective in the early 1990s when the Cusuack was designed. When the Hogan redevelopment came ten years later the money was less significant and roof was able to be extended further out over the pitch.

More than any other part of the stadium, the roof - or more precisely, the lack of cover it affords from rain - has come in for criticism. Although a pressure bulge develops over the stadium, reducing rainfall by 30%, complaints forced a rethink as the development progressed. It is the one part of the finished design that appears gauche: the earlier phases of the cantilever roof extend 34m, while the last phase - over the Hogan stand - extends 48m. The overall effect, despite the subtleties of the design which responds to orientation by varying the amount of glazing in each canopy, looks clumsy.

"In retrospect, we wouldn't make that decision again," McMahon admits. Back in 1992, the GAA believed they couldn't afford the extra £2m which would have been added to the construction cost for every extra metre of cantilever over and above the initial 34m. Now they make that much whenever there's a major championship match.

Source

Ash.J.Williams

Rochey18 wrote: »

Firstly Hill 16 is imo what adds hughly to the atmosphere in croke park, of course when Dublin are playin but even when they aint, look at the Kildare fans yesterday on it.

Secondly, the last time Dublin played away from Croke Park in a big game was against Kerry in Thurles. I didnt see a problem selling that out. Croke park is perfect size.

For Aviva stadium, I couldnt care less.

Most of the dubs didn't make it to that game, due to not leaving Dublin on time!!! The pubs of monasterevin and portlaoise were full of dubs!!

rpurfield

there was about the same crowd in for sundays games and the leinster final and the atmosphere was electric both days.while were on about atmosphere the roscommon fans were brilliant sunday even when the game was up they were still singing their lads on.loved the big stitched together flag they had too like they got about 40 flags whipped them off the bamboo sticks and stitched them together!!between them the meath lads and the kildare lads there was loads of banners on show great to see.

Het-Field

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Most of the dubs didn't make it to that game, due to not leaving Dublin on time!!! The pubs of monasterevin and portlaoise were full of dubs!!

That is a bit of a myth ! What actually happened was that the majority of Dubs arrived in Thurlas on time, but saw fit to drive into Thurlas Town not knowing that the roads were limited, one way, and liable to large scale holdups. When sections of 50,000 fans do that, it causes chaos, and most Munstermen know better then to do that. Thus, many Dubs spent the afternoon trying to navigate their way out of Thurlas, and pick up parking !

popebenny16

Bluetonic wrote: »

No it's purely down to the fact that for every extra meter of roof it was IEP£2m which was not deemed cost effective in the early 1990s when the Cusuack was designed. When the Hogan redevelopment came ten years later the money was less significant and roof was able to be extended further out over the pitch.



Source

i take issue with that, because as you will recall the canal end and the hogan were built almost continuously, and the entire stadium was designed as one, with the added complication that the roof segments had to stand alone (cusack and then cusack/canal) before being made into one c ring.
and, to cap it all, as you note they were making that money per match and that was before we talk about the international rugby and soccer games. they could have extended the entire roof (admittedly problematic and also shadow issues on the pitch) or they could have actually done nothing and left the design as it was. both of which would have made the place look a lot better.

maybe in 2020 they will sort it out.

Bluetonic

popebenny16 wrote: »

i take issue with that, because as you will recall the canal end and the hogan were built almost continuously

No they weren't. The canal was fully finished before the Hogan was started.



As for the rest of your post, they were making IEP2m a game in the early 1990s were they? No they weren't.

rn

To answer the original question. Yes.

Croke Park has to be one of the most inefficient stadiums in the world. So many games and so few spectators. I particularly hate the early season tripple and double headers they lay on just to justify opening it. A good healthy crowd of 20000 specators are lost in it.

Personally I feel it should be reserved for All Finals (yes I think its a great thing that the likes of the Junior Club finals and the cumman na mBunscoil finals are held there regardless of the crowd). But for ALL other matches, including the Leinster Championship, GAA should be using the more than adequate local facilities for two reasons - to get GAA buzz back into Leinster football and its just financially cheaper for the fans. I would also use it for 1/4s and semi of the All-Ireland intercounty (Hurling and Football) as well. I wouldn't allow the dubs in just because they are the dubs... and as for the moaning managers who want to play there night, noon and morning!

There is no better advertisment and marketing to buy tickets than if there is a chance a ground might sell out before the day... that never happens these days so people don't committ until the sunday when invariably, in the early rounds of the championship at least, there will be something else on.