Lansdowne Road station & the Aviva

eclectichoney

Was anyone at the match on Saturday, and got the train? Were there extra trains or anything put on afterwards or was the station jammers? Also according to a poster I saw in Pearse Street, some ticket holders (the East stand I think) should use Sandymount station instead even though it seems a lot further away than Lansdowne Rd station - surely you can just use Lansdowne Rd, or is it blocked off or one way or something??

Victor

I presume they want to spread out the load. They may have held one train at Sandymount and another at Lansdowne Road.

Cookiemunster

eclectichoney wrote: »

Was anyone at the match on Saturday, and got the train? Were there extra trains or anything put on afterwards or was the station jammers? Also according to a poster I saw in Pearse Street, some ticket holders (the East stand I think) should use Sandymount station instead even though it seems a lot further away than Lansdowne Rd station - surely you can just use Lansdowne Rd, or is it blocked off or one way or something??

I was in the East stand. There were stewards standing across Landsdowne Rd stopping you from walking to the station. I didn't know anything about going to sandymount and a steward told me to use the walk up the side of the Dodder to get to Landsdowne station. Personally I think the situation is a bit ridicilous.

eclectichoney

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I was in the East stand. There were stewards standing across Landsdowne Rd stopping you from walking to the station. I didn't know anything about going to sandymount and a steward told me to use the walk up the side of the Dodder to get to Landsdowne station. Personally I think the situation is a bit ridicilous.

Thanks for that - looks like I better use Sandycmount so! I do think it's a bit ridiculous to make people walk 10 minutes (especially on a wet eveing etc.) for the sake of spreading the crowd when there is a station right at lansdowne though!

mk6705

There were plenty of trains, so a queue formed and as soon as one left there was another. However, the stewards did cut people off from accessing the station so a detour was required, which of course leads to many people getting lost.

Zebra3

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I was in the East stand. There were stewards standing across Landsdowne Rd stopping you from walking to the station. I didn't know anything about going to sandymount and a steward told me to use the walk up the side of the Dodder to get to Landsdowne station. Personally I think the situation is a bit ridicilous.

Surely that's not legal?

Cookie_Monster

Zebra3 wrote: »

Surely that's not legal?

I wouldn't have thought so. Once you are outside the station they'd have no power right?

delta_bravo

The idea is they dont want 3000 people queueing on the platform. I was at a meeting for how it was to be managed and there is I believe some sort of tunnel or holding area that people first reach and then are allowed onwards to the DART.

doctorwu

It wasnt just stewards blocking access to Lansdowne Dart Station. A mixture of stewards and Police. This is to insure that Lansdowne Road does not become over congested. Crowd control. Very sensible in a crush people could get killed.

Cookie_Monster

rather than just build a proper ****ing station in the first place as part of the redevelopment :mad::rolleyes:

good old Ireland...

KC61

eclectichoney wrote: »

Thanks for that - looks like I better use Sandycmount so! I do think it's a bit ridiculous to make people walk 10 minutes (especially on a wet eveing etc.) for the sake of spreading the crowd when there is a station right at lansdowne though!

Weather conditions do not come in to it when managing crowd control. It is about spreading the load.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Weather conditions do not come in to it when managing crowd control. It is about spreading the load.

of course it comes into it. It can affect all sorts of thing, especially people humour and tolerance levels for stupid detours.

if it was a bright, warm sunny evening and you were told to **** off to another station you may not mind. If its pissing out of the heavens you certainly will and react accordingly in some cases.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it comes into it. It can affect all sorts of thing, especially people humour and tolerance levels for stupid detours.

if it was a bright, warm sunny evening and you were told to **** off to another station you may not mind. If its pissing out of the heavens you certainly will and react accordingly in some cases.

I meant that the same procedures apply irrespective of whether it is wet or not. Of course people's emotions get frayed when its cold and wet, but people will get used to it.

trellheim

Well we will see if the same poor communication occurs tomorrow night.

Random

i read all their things in advance and got off at sandymount for the herbert road entrance as they suggested. i was the only getting getting off at sandymount. will be getting off at landsdowne next time.

i left the groun at half time (with half of the people there) and we just went straight to landsdowne no issue.

hoggy87

Are there trains going towards Connolly after the game tonight? I've checked the Irish Rail website and it seems the next one to Connolly after the game is at 23.54? I'm presuming I'm reading the timetable wrong?

loyatemu

mayhem at Pearse prior to the game tonight. I was trying to get back to Greystones - couldn't get on the 1800, 1815 or 1830 Darts, eventually squeezed onto the 1835 Rosslare train (which made an unscheduled stop at LR to let the footie fans off).

No extra trains, and since the stadium closed they've reduced the number of southbound peaktime Darts anyway. Also the first 2 Darts that came along were only 6 carriages - as ever, sterling work from IE.

saeglopur

Northbound was a joke after the game. cant believe that they haven't upgraded from the same 2 abreast entrance that was used before the redevelopment. Capacity has gone from 33000 to 50000 and yet they believe that the same entrance and platform is adequate. i know there are issues with space but surely planning permission should only have been given on the basis that the station could be upgraded or a new platform be created. Thankfully the weather was nice enough this evening and there was a lot of kids around so there was no pushing but i can see it turning into a right old scrum on a wet and cold November evening.

Southbound was upgraded of course :rolleyes:into a wide at least 10 abreast entrance so they didnt seem to have the same issues but thats a whole other topic........:)

Colm R

During the match I overheard someone saying Grand Canal was closed. I wanted to walk to there after the match. So I checked irishrail.ie on the phone and there was "No Travel Alerts". I would assume the station being closed would be a valid travel alert.

So off I went, and sure enough it was closed. Since I've lived in Dublin, this stadium has never been in use, so I'm not familliar with normal match day procedures. I didn't travel to the stadium on the train so I didn't see the electronic signs stating the closure.

Anyway, I walked on to Pearse. I think I ended up on the first train out of Lansdowne, and by hearing the stories, walking to Pearse was probably the best thing to do. But seriously IR, Grand Canal being closed is a travel alert!!!

Next time I attend a midweek game, I'll be walking back to town and getting a bus.

KC61

saeglopur wrote: »

Northbound was a joke after the game. cant believe that they haven't upgraded from the same 2 abreast entrance that was used before the redevelopment. Capacity has gone from 33000 to 50000 and yet they believe that the same entrance and platform is adequate. i know there are issues with space but surely planning permission should only have been given on the basis that the station could be upgraded or a new platform be created. Thankfully the weather was nice enough this evening and there was a lot of kids around so there was no pushing but i can see it turning into a right old scrum on a wet and cold November evening.

Southbound was upgraded of course :rolleyes:into a wide at least 10 abreast entrance so they didnt seem to have the same issues but thats a whole other topic........:)

Is capacity not exactly the same? It was 50,000 before Lansdowne Road was demolished.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Is capacity not exactly the same? It was 50,000 before Lansdowne Road was demolished.

saeglopur wrote: »

Capacity has gone from 33000 to 50000 and yet they believe that the same entrance and platform is adequate.

For international all seated games capacity was much lower

wikipedia wrote:

48,000 (23,000 seated), 36,000 when all seated.

Goonerette

Chaos at Connolly before the match. I queued for 30 minutes to buy a ticket because our glorious main train station only has 4 ticket machines, one of which stopped working just as I got to the top of the queue. :rolleyes: There seemed to be only one extra Dart terminating at Lansdowne Road.

As usual on Irish trains and trams, no one bothered to actually move into the carriage to allow as many people as possible to board, instead just crowding the door area. I got on first and walked straight to the middle of the carriage where there were empty seats and no one standing. A bunch of people were left behind at Tara and Pearse even though there was room. :mad:

After the match we were directed to Sandymount. There was a huge crowd for the Lansdowne Road station. The "new" station seemed dangerously inadequate for match day purposes. We decided to get the bus southbound instead from Merrion Road. The 4A was half empty because everyone went to get the Dart. I'd rather walk 20 minutes to the bus than expose myself to the mortal danger of 1000s of people crowding a tiny train station. After a near-death experience on a train platform at Eintracht Frankfurt... No way.

KC61

Sorry I forgot last night's match was the game played with the funny shaped ball (round!).

I was thinking in terms of rugby fixtures where the capacity was 49,500. But it does mean that the same numbers were coming out as that was the amount leaving after any big rugby fixture.

purplepanda

In other countries relying on the public transport options presently available in the Landsdowne Road area would mean that capacity would be reduced until it was proven that the area could cope with the crowds involved.

Most similar sized stadiums would have more options available for transporting crowds to & from events safely, something that seems to have escaped those who planned the build.

Transport planners should have provided further transport infastructure / more frequent services before the ground was built:eek:

I take it that the level crossing no longer exists outside the new stadium, I would hope that the planners at least got that right?:rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

purplepanda wrote: »

In other countries relying on the public transport options presently available in the Landsdowne Road area would mean that capacity would be reduced until it was proven that the area could cope with the crowds involved.
Most similar sized stadiums would have more options available for transporting crowds to & from events safely, something that seems to have escaped those who planned the build.
Transport planners should have provided further transport infastructure / more frequent services before the ground was built:eek:
I take it that the level crossing no longer exists outside the new stadium, I would hope that the planners at least got that right?:rolleyes:

Indeed, but this is Ireland and none of that matters at all to anyone involved, planners, NTA, Bord Pleanalla etc.

Croker is the same, two rail lines running along 2 sides of it and no station, its just madness.

AlekSmart

I suspect that the Aviva,in common with Croke Park will have a nicely presented PR pack which extols the virtues of a "Traffic and Transport Management Plan" in place during events/fixtures.

Usually there will be a senior management figure with responsibility for this.
Usually,again,this figure will have availed of a "Performance related Bonus" payment to alleviate the stress of devising the plan in the first place......

In China,such senior managers have a far more effective "Performance Related Bonus" scheme...it`s very effective as it has a single element....

A firing squad at the end of the process should it not work !!

saeglopur

KC61 wrote: »

Sorry I forgot last night's match was the game played with the funny shaped ball (round!).

I was thinking in terms of rugby fixtures where the capacity was 49,500. But it does mean that the same numbers were coming out as that was the amount leaving after any big rugby fixture.

While there was a capacity of just under 50000 for rugby before redevelopment id argue that for soccer a lot more of the patrons would be heading northbound after a game and so the decision to leave the northbound part of the station exactly the same as before redevelopment is a disgrace. Also soccer internationals are more likely to be played at night which leads to people just wanting to get home after a game rather than heading to the nearest pub for a while or strolling back to town after a day game.

efwren

I seem to remember reading that they couldn't put a train station in croker when they were building it, they weren't allowed as it would be too close to the ground and would cause crowd control chaos.

I have been at matches in grounds all around the world where its been common practice to stagger people reaching train platforms and so prevent too many people crowding on the platform..seems sensible to me.

Of course they should have been made build a bigger station at landsdown..but that was not going to happen.

The traffic in Dublin yesterday evening was absolutley chaotic...i was running on the canal and there was a 2-3 mile traffic jam at 7.15 in the evening..people were parking up their cars and walking from Dolphins Barn.

I think this is going to be a serious issue for the new Aviva

Cookie_Monster

efwren wrote: »

The traffic in Dublin yesterday evening was absolutley chaotic...i was running on the canal and there was a 2-3 mile traffic jam at 7.15 in the evening..people were parking up their cars and walking from Dolphins Barn.

I think this is going to be a serious issue for the new Aviva

the horse show was also on and I would suggest that this caused far more chaos than the match, it generally does.

Cookiemunster

My freinds last night took 50 minutes on foot to get the South stand to Shelbourne Rd lbecause of the DART. They told me that thousands of people were trying to walk done Landsdowne Rd as they used to do for years, but were instead told to use the tiny path down the side of the river. They said that it felt dangerously crushed, especially going through the tunnel under the DART line.
It seems that the planners totally ignored pedestrians and still managed to screw up the DART.

JimsAlterEgo

why the fVck was there no announcements or messages on screen saying what restrictions were in place after the game? This is a disaster waiting to happen.

Rashers72

There were a lot a texts/calls to Newstalk between 7am-9am complaining about trying to get the DART after the match. Those with kids seem to have been most impacted.
Newstalk were trying to get a statment from Aviva about their exit policy, but they could not get one (fair enough, it was early).
They probably should have got Barry K on to see what his take was on it.
I thought one of the benefits of Aviva over Abbotstown was the DART, and the ability to move significant numbers of match goers via public transport - i.e. DART.
Why not open Grand Canal Dock, and use the sidings there on the platform to load passengers? I'm assuming it's electrified, but not sure.
Once full, it pulls out. You could send another empty one in from the siding in Connolly to refill.
And maybe, to prevent overcrowding, DARTs serving Lansdowne northbound would not stop at Grand Canal dock station.

Whatever they do, they have to do something to improve things. We've had the teething problems, no lets think outside the box, and get it sorted!:mad:
PS - once people got to the platforms, did the DARTs depart promptly? That was always a problem in the past, but should have been sorted with the plaza, new wide entrance to Southbound platform and underpass now in use.

rx8

Great planning/crowd control last night lads,
Anyone who entered the east stand had to go out via herbert rd. and wasn't allowed access to landsdowne rd.and the dart, and if you came in via herbert rd. and the dodder side, they wouldn't let you go back that way! What a fooking joke
Glad we cancelled the block-booking now, cos between them the guards and the fai couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery and only try to annoy and antagonise the public at every turn !!:mad:

Snickers Man

I am in the deeply fortunate position of living within walking distance of Lansdowne Road and therefore don't have to use the Dart but what I'm reading here makes my blood boil.

It seems that they closed Grand Canal Dock, and insisted that people with East Stand tickets used Sandymount Station. How barmy is that??

Don't these people ever look at a map?

I can readily understand why they would want to spread the load at Dart stations. That's only common sense.

But surely the way to do that would be to ask passengers coming from the city centre with tickets for what used to be the Havelock Square end (north stand) and the East Stand to get off at Grand Canal Dock and take the relatively short and intuitive walk down Barrow St (50m) turn left at Grand Canal St and walk to the junction with Bath Avenue (100m) whereupon they could turn left, past the Garda cordon and make their way down Bath Avenue to gain access either through Havelock Square for the north stand or the Dodder entrance for part of the east stand.

In some cases, they might have to cross the bridge and walk along the far side of the river before recrossing the bridge and gaining access to their seats via the gates at the lower end of Lansdowne Road, ie the end furthest away from the Dart. (I had to do this for the four provinces game)

Then passeners lucky enough to have tickets for the south and west stands could get off at Lansdowne Road and make their way to their nearby seats. Helped by the tunnel that has so wisely been built to remove the traditional crush at the level crossing gates.

Asking people to get off at Sandymount is just stupid. Not only is it a longer walk it is also a more disorienting one through the maze of twisty roads that is Sandymount.

What people alighting at Sandymount Dart station would be more likely to do is come out of the station, turn right, walk down Merrion Road to Lansdowne Road and then end up right back at the level crossing beside Lansdowne Station, thereby achieving nothing in terms of easing congestion and having walked for 15-20 minutes into the bargain!!!

Is it going to be Dart policy to close grand canal dock during match days?

If so, this is just typical of Irish transport authorities' predeliction forthinking up bad reasons not to implement good ideas.

Cookie_Monster

Snickers Man wrote: »

Is it going to be Dart policy to close grand canal dock during match days?

If so, this is just typical of Irish transport authorities' predeliction forthinking up bad reasons not to implement good ideas.

It is and has been since it was built. And its moronic

dowlingm

I'm confused. What exactly is IE's rationale for closing GCD on match days. Is it something to do with the settlement in respect of the North Stand, where they don't want matchgoers going through those estates to the ground?

That said - it seems to me that it is unrealistic to expect IE to handle all public transport needs. Even with 8 car DARTs there's only so many they can shift. Build a massive stadium bounded by water and dense housing estates to the east, this is going to happen.

Oliver1985

Grand canal is open before match it closes when the final whistle goes for 2 hours

dowlingm

Oliver1985 wrote: »

Grand canal is open before match it closes when the final whistle goes for 2 hours

okay... but why? Anyone have any scooby doo why they are doing this?

loyatemu

it was the same with the old stadium - I assumed it was some safety worry they had regarding the steps up to the station, but presumably you have same issue at stations around the world (Wembley and numerous other London stadia are served by the Tube for a start).

I can't see the point in sending anyone travelling southbound to Sandymount either, they simply won't be able to get on the train there as it'll be full departing LR.

KC61

The station is closed for safety reasons after the game on garda advice. Simply put the fact that to access the northbound platform requires accessing the southbound platform first before crossing the footbridge means that it could have serious crowd control issues.

Remember too that the crowds would be more evenly spread out before a game than after it.

It is the same as Tara Street being closed on St Patrick's Day, also on Garda advice.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

The station is closed for safety reasons after the game on garda advice. Simply put the fact that to access the northbound platform requires accessing the southbound platform first before crossing the footbridge means that it could have serious crowd control issues.

so forcing everyone to use one station, Lansdowne, is safer than using 2?

(before new stadium and forcing people to use Sandymount)

KC61

Rashers72 wrote: »

Why not open Grand Canal Dock, and use the sidings there on the platform to load passengers? I'm assuming it's electrified, but not sure.
Once full, it pulls out. You could send another empty one in from the siding in Connolly to refill.
And maybe, to prevent overcrowding, DARTs serving Lansdowne northbound would not stop at Grand Canal dock station.

Whatever they do, they have to do something to improve things. We've had the teething problems, no lets think outside the box, and get it sorted!:mad:
PS - once people got to the platforms, did the DARTs depart promptly? That was always a problem in the past, but should have been sorted with the plaza, new wide entrance to Southbound platform and underpass now in use.

The third platform at Grand Canal Dock is not signalled for use by passenger trains and will not come into use until the city centre resignalling project (currently being implemented) is concluded.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so forcing everyone to use one station, Lansdowne, is safer than using 2?

(before new stadium and forcing people to use Sandymount)

Well they have two separate entrances open at Lansdowne Road on match days which means everyone is not going through the one single entrance to access both platforms.

dowlingm

KC61 wrote: »

The third platform at Grand Canal Dock is not signalled for use by passenger trains and will not come into use until the city centre resignalling project (currently being implemented) is concluded.

How soon might that be, KC61?

KC61

2012 is the estimate. It covers a large area as far north as Malahide so there is quite a lot of work involved.

Amongst other things, it will change the unused platform at GCD into the northbound platform, and the middle platform (currently the northbound platform) will become a turnback platform for Drogheda and Maynooth services.

Jehuty42

KC61 wrote: »

The third platform at Grand Canal Dock is not signalled for use by passenger trains and will not come into use until the city centre resignalling project (currently being implemented) is concluded.

I don't completely buy that one. That platform is used by terminating trains from Pearse all the time, so there is a signalling path to get to it from the mainline through Pearse, and also in the opposite direction. If it uses shunt signals and is not signalled for CAWS, so be it, it is still quite possible to get a train into that platform and back out.

KC61

Jehuty42 wrote: »

I don't completely buy that one. That platform is used by terminating trains from Pearse all the time, so there is a signalling path to get to it from the mainline through Pearse, and also in the opposite direction. If it uses shunt signals and is not signalled for CAWS, so be it, it is still quite possible to get a train into that platform and back out.

It is signalled as a siding and as such cannot be used for passenger trains in service.

Jehuty42

KC61 wrote: »

It is signalled as a siding and as such cannot be used for passenger trains in service.

Why not though? Sorry to be belligerent about this, and I'm aware of the safety issues with regards to sidings, as officialy only staff should be anywhere near them, but this is a siding that has a fully-fledged modern platform next to it, it's not like using the Boston sidings and walking to the platform.

Snickers Man

KC61 wrote: »

2012 is the estimate. It covers a large area as far north as Malahide so there is quite a lot of work involved.
.

On one line? Jaysus how do those continentals who have networks of trains, as opposed to our poxy single point to single point service ever get anything done?

And as for closing a station on Garda advice. I can see why the cops do it but really, if ever there was an indictment of a train service that is not fit for purpose then that shows it up. It's my local station so I know it quite well and the fact that all passengers entering or leaving the station travelling to or from ANY destination have to squeeze in and out of the same doorway causes a crush even with modest passenger traffic.

So what are DART going to do about it? Maybe have a second entrance to cater for northbound and southbound passengers.

Maybe encourage more pre-sold tickets and automated ticket turnstiles so that you could have more entrances and exits? To digress briefly to the issue of Croke Park, why can't you have an exit from the DART station at Connolly near where the DART actually stops so that passengers for the stadium can get off near the NCR and walk smartly over to the stadium, instead of having to walk about 100m down a platform to the barriers and then double back on themselves up Amiens St as they currently do?

(I think I know the answer. "Ah Jaysus, if we did that, the Guards would close the station because too many people might want to use it")

There's nothing particularly new and innovative in any of this. Proper public transport systems on the continent have been doing this for decades.

All DART/CIE/Dublin Bus are good for is coming up with lame reasons why they can't.

They're a disgrace.

Thank **** I live in D4 and can walk most places.

No wonder the rest of the country hates us.

KC61

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Why not though? Sorry to be belligerent about this, and I'm aware of the safety issues with regards to sidings, as officialy only staff should be anywhere near them, but this is a siding that has a fully-fledged modern platform next to it, it's not like using the Boston sidings and walking to the platform.

You'll need to ask the Railway Safety Commission that one.

dowlingm

Looking at it in Google Maps Sat view, constructing a NB platform access other than via the existing access looks a mighty tricky proposition, since the siding has to be traversed and the SW station/track boundary appears to be a narrow private car park so expropriation and creation of a stairway/crossing would be a tricky negotiation. It's starting to become clear why a closure is mandated.

I would hazard that it should be okay to create a non-accessible stairway with people with mobility issues being allowed to enter via the SB entrance, but the fun police may say otherwise.

It would probably be necessary to have some crowd control limiting numbers on the platform to prevent pushing of people onto the siding and obviously parking non-revenue trains there would be out of the question as people would just start banging on the doors assuming they are service trains.

Should IRFU have been obliged as part of PP to throw a bit of money into improving access to stations other than Lansdowne? Maybe...