Help with Freeview across the sea to Co.Down?

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

In the postcode checker?

Well, it wasn't showing any reception for the HD mux last time I looked, now it's showing poor reception!

Disappointed of Down!
After waiting for so long it would seem HD reception from IOM to this location is a forlorn hope.
Seems we are always the last region to get services we pay as much(not to receive) as people in the rest of UK,no BBC Fm here either.
Maybe one day a small computer will stuff all channels into a big Tx we can all pay for and receive?
As far as the postcode checker is concerned,it tells me I can receive said Tx from IOM,which I can't,and that I can't receive Dab,which I can,(with a bit of effort)
As far as the future is concerned,it shows Kilkeel as the best bet after dso
I doubt it as the analogue is not comimg in at present.
At another location it shows Camlough as the favoured Tx,I doubt it,and Leitrim,a stones throw,but behind a big hill?
Maybe the future for this area will be the new RTE services which don't appear to be a problem at any of these locations.
Given an option who should I pay my licence to?
Anyway sorry to grumbe,it was fun and I learned a lot,some of which I had forgotten from the days when HD was 1250 lines.

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Seems to me that future reception of Freeview HD and Dx may not be a worthwhile hobby for a grown man if he wants to keep his marbles.

Well...you could move down to the wexford coast...some bargain property around at the moment and oodles of dx opportunities on the higher ground over looking it [haverford west hd,red ruth and caradon hill aswell as black mtn all seen here in lifts but as said earlier regular reception of t2 from presely and arfon]

So you have no NI analogue at your location at all? what have the authorities said about that?

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

Well...you could move down to the wexford coast...some bargain property around at the moment and oodles of dx opportunities on the higher ground over looking it [haverford west hd,red ruth and caradon hill aswell as black mtn all seen here in lifts but as said earlier regular reception of t2 from presely and arfon]

So you have no NI analogue at your location at all? what have the authorities said about that?

Thanks for your very kind offer,we may be told off for crossing with the Estate Agents thread!
I suspect the authorities would say the same as the mobile phone authorities"Tough"
But at the end of the day,it would be a shame if I could receive all the channels only to find there was nothing to watch except that very fine test card on RTE.

Gerry Wicklow

Deleted User wrote: »

... oodles of dx opportunities on the higher ground ...

You forgot to mention French DTT and French and Spanish analogue as well.
You know, I even heard a rumour that some people only watch TV to see the programs :eek:.

Sam Russell

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

You forgot to mention French DTT and French and Spanish analogue as well.
You know, I even heard a rumour that some people only watch TV to see the programs :eek:.

It is because of the programmes that people are interested in Dx-ing.

Peddyr

reboot wrote: »

Disappointed of Down!
After waiting for so long it would seem HD reception from IOM to this location is a forlorn hope.
Seems we are always the last region to get services we pay as much(not to receive) as people in the rest of UK,no BBC Fm here either.
Maybe one day a small computer will stuff all channels into a big Tx we can all pay for and receive?
As far as the postcode checker is concerned,it tells me I can receive said Tx from IOM,which I can't,and that I can't receive Dab,which I can,(with a bit of effort)
As far as the future is concerned,it shows Kilkeel as the best bet after dso
I doubt it as the analogue is not comimg in at present.
At another location it shows Camlough as the favoured Tx,I doubt it,and Leitrim,a stones throw,but behind a big hill?
Maybe the future for this area will be the new RTE services which don't appear to be a problem at any of these locations.
Given an option who should I pay my licence to?
Anyway sorry to grumbe,it was fun and I learned a lot,some of which I had forgotten from the days when HD was 1250 lines.

Maybe Watty, The Cush or some other poster with the relevant experience can offer advice to you Reboot re the problem with T2 reception from IOM Txs. If you're getting SD on 43 & 46 at 100% Q, then there seems little reason why you can't recieve HD on 50 from the same Tx. Port St Mary is the one you want because it's at 2kw whereas Beary Pairk is very low powered at 200w. How did you get on with research into CCI issues on 50?

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is because of the programmes that people are interested in Dx-ing.

Which of them auld french channels have you been watching...;)

The Cush

Peddyr wrote: »

Maybe Watty, The Cush or some other poster with the relevant experience can offer advice to you Reboot re the problem with T2 reception from IOM Txs.

Sorry, I've no experience of Freeview T or T2 reception here in the mid-west.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

In the postcode checker?

Well, it wasn't showing any reception for the HD mux last time I looked, now it's showing poor reception!

From my point of view and the experience we both seem to have of this particular DVB-T2 Freeview HD reception problem ,I think it may be time to wrap it up and try to reach some kind of conlusion.
I guess lots of people will not have been interested in a"S.Down" thread.
But would you think it worth putting out a "Caution Thread" re the subject generally,I guess its one for the moderators to look at.
My mistake may have been in not flagging up "Freeview HD" reception?
Perhaps before investing in Freeview HD Teles and STBs,it would be wise to ensure that a stable T2 signal can be received.
We have slightly gone off topic at times with mention of Dxing.
The whole point is that the IOM can be seen out the window at this location,and SD signals can be picked up on a basic aerial with no amp required,HD signal,after some recent work we are told at the TX has meant that HD can not be picked up at this location.It was never stable from day one.
Is this problem unique to here or is it likely to happen more in the North as DSO continues in rural areas?Perhaps RTE had a point in staying with DVB-T?,although I know there are other issues .
In the meantime its back to the Sky HD box.

The subject extreme fringe UK freeview HD reception is the subject you want.

More than 60 miles from the tx I would regard as extreme fringe.

You would want a team of qualified Arquiva engineers at your site with the proper equipment and the exact data from their tx's[power,offsets,nulls,panel direction etc etc] in order to properly ascertain why you are not receiving T2 from the isle of man.
You've a perfect excuse to get them out there because you have no analogue reception.
If they are not responding,the usual next thing to do would be to get a group of locals afflicted by the same problem together and if theres enough of them,then you bring the issue to local councilors,mp and am.

They may say it's just not economical to put in a new relay and advise satelite.
Many locals already using sat will be a problem for any campaign as they won't be bothered.

On a positive note,the new type of dtt,even sd freeview is more robust than the old type.
Installers down here are telling me that it's getting to places that analogue didn't,so you may get a pleasant surprise when Divis is turned up and changed over.
Your pleasant surprise might come from a different tx and even kilkeel either...thats going to require you doing more dx'ing to try find out post dso in normal non lift weather.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

The subject extreme fringe UK freeview HD reception is the subject you want.

More than 60 miles from the tx I would regard as extreme fringe.

You would want a team of qualified Arquiva engineers at your site with the proper equipment and the exact data from their tx's[power,offsets,nulls,panel direction etc etc] in order to properly ascertain why you are not receiving T2 from the isle of man.
You've a perfect excuse to get them out there because you have no analogue reception.
If they are not responding,the usual next thing to do would be to get a group of locals afflicted by the same problem together and if theres enough of them,then you bring the issue to local councilors,mp and am.

They may say it's just not economical to put in a new relay and advise satelite.
Many locals already using sat will be a problem for any campaign as they won't be bothered.

On a positive note,the new type of dtt,even sd freeview is more robust than the old type.
Installers down here are telling me that it's getting to places that analogue didn't,so you may get a pleasant surprise when Divis is turned up and changed over.
Your pleasant surprise might come from a different tx and even kilkeel either...thats going to require you doing more dx'ing to try find out post dso in normal non lift weather.

I am told that Tx is 47 miles away,and I am doing this to help a friend,who also ownes the computer.
I take on board your suggestions,but have observed that even when I have looked to Wales,Dxing,the HD signal appears to be the weakest and the first to drop out is this true? If so where would this leave people in the city who will not erect proper aerials?
Perhaps as mentioned before there should be ,as I think you are suggesting,a Thread "Fringe UK Freeview HD"Don't know about extreme.
I don't know much about it ,except for the sad experience this person has endured,at my behest,having paid £400 for a new Freeview HD Tele.
If asked in future I might say "The worst vice,is advice."
Good luck Kipure after the 11th.

lucernarian

60 miles is not so extreme considering the distances many people are from the main transmission sites. Particularly Cairn Hill's reach from east Galway to Drogheda. And RTE's coverage map claims that a square near my folks' house is best served by Mt Leinster(!). That patch of hillside would by then have a co-channel battle with Kilkeel... Much of the house itself has reception of DTT from Cairn hill with an indoor aerial. Which is about 60 miles.

Peter Rhea

reboot wrote: »

From my point of view and the experience we both seem to have of this particular DVB-T2 Freeview HD reception problem ,I think it may be time to wrap it up and try to reach some kind of conlusion.

The only conclusion we can reach in this case is that reception of Freeview HD on UHF channel 50 from IOM is difficult at your specific location.

As pointed out above, more information needs to be gathered over a wider area & in a more professional manner by people who know exactly what they're dealing with, before any real problem can be identified.

It is rather annoying that the SD channels seem to work without problems but professional measurement could show even this to be borderline.

I have no experience of T2 reception BTW.

Peter Rhea

The only advice I can give, and you've probably already tried it, is to test as many different aerial locations (as distinct from bearings) as possible, be they some distance apart on the property, or maybe only relatively small movements up, down, left, right or even backwards & forwards on your current mast setup.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

The only advice I can give, and you've probably already tried it, is to test as many different aerial locations (as distinct from bearings) as possible, be they some distance apart on the property, or maybe only relatively small movements up, down, left, right or even backwards & forwards on your current mast setup.

Thanks for your continuing interest in the problem,yes I have tried the following ,over a period of many weeks,before and after work appears to have been carried out at the Tx,(re Post code checker).
Tried different aerials at different locations on the property.
With no amp,DVB-T,SD reception ,no problem,100%.No HD or very seldom,Signal 90% intermittent,no or hardly any S/N (Quality)
With a variable gain amp still no stable DVB-T2 HD signal.
Even switched almost everthing electrical in the house off.
As mentioned before similar HD reception,in particular,its the first sig to drop out from Wales.SD not as sensitive to interference,(If thats the problem,as suggested by Watty from the start.
If this subject is to be pursued in the future, I think another thread would suggest itself,as folk keep going from T to T2,understandably
Perhaps "Problems receiving Freeview HD UK,only"? .
Otherwise the subject is confusing from parts of the contry,receiving RTE on DVB-T and SFN.etc,or where people have not yet experienced the problem because they haven't yet bought the STB or Freeview HD TV.

mrdtv2010

I admire your tenacity and thoroughness. However I think the main problems at your location are likely to be interference as you are outside the protected service area. Port St Mary is the dominant transmitter @ 2kW in the SFN, but you are well outside the area where the SFN works. Strong co-channel interferers are likely to be present from Llanddona COM muxes, although the North West radiation pattern of Llanddona post-DSO is not known. DigitalUK and Arqiva were well aware of the problems and there was also a special Port-St Mary newsletter about the power up where interference from Cairn Hill was noted. It is likely that CH50 in your area has pathological RF conditions. There is no reason to suppose that the coverage of DVB-T2 is different for DVB-T1, given identical antenna radiation patterns, as the mode chosen for T2 in the UK has virtually the same carrier/noise ratio in order to provide virtually identical coverage for equal HAAT and ERPs of transmitters. Have you tried Moel-y-Parc?

It's impossible to give a definitive answer as we don't know the true radiation patterns for these stations at particular RF channels: Arqiva like to keep this confidential.

lucernarian

For the HD mux alone, I still think Caldbeck offers the best chance. It's a very high antenna broadcasting at 100kW ERP though I don't know how directional it is. Ch. 30 is barely used throughout the UK and Ireland even after DSO here. With a big enough Group A aerial and an amp and a bit of height, this could be successful.

reboot

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

I admire your tenacity and thoroughness. However I think the main problems at your location are likely to be interference as you are outside the protected service area. Port St Mary is the dominant transmitter @ 2kW in the SFN, but you are well outside the area where the SFN works. Strong co-channel interferers are likely to be present from Llanddona COM muxes, although the North West radiation pattern of Llanddona post-DSO is not known. DigitalUK and Arqiva were well aware of the problems and there was also a special Port-St Mary newsletter about the power up where interference from Cairn Hill was noted. It is likely that CH50 in your area has pathological RF conditions. There is no reason to suppose that the coverage of DVB-T2 is different for DVB-T1, given identical antenna radiation patterns, as the mode chosen for T2 in the UK has virtually the same carrier/noise ratio in order to provide virtually identical coverage for equal HAAT and ERPs of transmitters. Have you tried Moel-y-Parc?

It's impossible to give a definitive answer as we don't know the true radiation patterns for these stations at particular RF channels: Arqiva like to keep this confidential.

Very interesting,I will go away and consider your information.
I therefore assume when the "Post code checker" indicates that as HD is being transmitted from IOM,it doesn't follow that in all cases where the SD signal is being received at 100% strength and quality that the HD signal will appear at all,due to interference of an unknown source?
Sounds like a health warning should be placed on STB and HD TV's.
"Outside the protected area ",for example.Don't see any mention of that on the Checker.
Same problem seems to exist on the Tx reception from Wales,although not to the same extent,but HD is always the first to fade.If I ever manage to receive Kilkeel will the problem still exist?
RTE on DVB-T has been rock steady from day one.Thanks again.

reboot

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

For the HD mux alone, I still think Caldbeck offers the best chance. It's a very high antenna broadcasting at 100kW ERP though I don't know how directional it is. Ch. 30 is barely used throughout the UK and Ireland even after DSO here. With a big enough Group A aerial and an amp and a bit of height, this could be successful.

Thanks for that will have another punt at it.Sad that I have to go to the expense and hastle of tring to receive the "New Technology" from another country,when I can see the Isle of Mann out of the window!
Seems like a design defect somewhere,and a great boost for Sky?
Interesting to wait and see if more relays in the country pose a similar problem ,or is this a one off.

Vince Cable

reboot wrote: »

. . . it doesn't follow that in all cases where the SD signal is being received at 100% strength and quality that the HD signal will appear at all

Do tvs measure signal quality before or after error correction?

As someone pointed out previously, your 'perfect' SD signal may be nothing of the sort.

reboot wrote: »

Seems like a design defect somewhere,and a great boost for Sky?
Interesting to wait and see if more relays in the country pose a similar problem ,or is this a one off.

Check out the UK forums, they have plenty of experience of T2 reception, main site, relay, even some SFNs.

reboot

Vince Cable wrote: »

Do tvs measure signal quality before or after error correction?

As someone pointed out previously, your 'perfect' SD signal may be nothing of the sort



Check out the UK forums, they have plenty of experience of T2 reception, main site, relay, even some SFNs.

Thanks,will check out forum on SFN;s.,although "Perfect SD signal has resulted in "Perfect pictures "for months.

reboot

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

For the HD mux alone, I still think Caldbeck offers the best chance. It's a very high antenna broadcasting at 100kW ERP though I don't know how directional it is. Ch. 30 is barely used throughout the UK and Ireland even after DSO here. With a big enough Group A aerial and an amp and a bit of height, this could be successful.

Take your point on CH30,alas not a sniff from here,sorry Caldbeck for small error on your location,was thinking of previous post re Wales.
I feel some folk not happy with my findings,and I hear some music in the background,,could it be the "Last Post?"

lucernarian

reboot wrote: »

Take your point on CH30,alas not a sniff from here,sorry Caldbeck for small error on your location,was thinking of previous post re Wales.
I feel some folk not happy with my findings,and I hear some music in the background,,could it be the "Last Post?"

I don't quite follow you. You mentioned earlier that you might have another punt at Caldbeck, did you try this today?

Vince Cable

Vince Cable wrote: »

Check out the UK forums . . .

This thread might be worth keeping an eye on; http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1474946

reboot

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't quite follow you. You mentioned earlier that you might have another punt at Caldbeck, did you try this today?

Sorry to take so long to get back to you on your suggestion of looking for Caldbeck from S.Down,nothing I am afraid being received at this location from said Tx.
The problem appears to be solved as discussed elsewhere ,by panning inland away from IOM Tx,and thereby getting rid of intereference from Wales on Ch 50 HD.

Peddyr

reboot wrote: »

Sorry to take so long to get back to you on your suggestion of looking for Caldbeck from S.Down,nothing I am afraid being received at this location from said Tx.
The problem appears to be solved as discussed elsewhere ,by panning inland away from IOM Tx,and thereby getting rid of intereference from Wales on Ch 50 HD.

Does that mean that you've 'panned' away far enough to cut out Welsh CCI and are now getting IOM Tx HD ok on Ch50??

reboot

Peddyr wrote: »

Does that mean that you've 'panned' away far enough to cut out Welsh CCI and are now getting IOM Tx HD ok on Ch50??

The answer to your question was yes,but pan too far North and the culpret appears to be Ch 42 and 49,which wipe out 42 ,43,and 50 IOM.
On a slightly related topic ,I appear to be seeing a digital carrier of some kind on the following from Castlewellan direction,looking to camlough.
Ch,52,54,56,58,61,66,and 68.Any ideas?No Quality of pics.

Peter Rhea

52, 56, 66 & 68 are Clermont Carn analogue, 54, 58 & 61 are Camlough analogue as well as 54 & 58 being used by Three Rock/Kippure, as you know.

42 & 49 are used by Ramsey, IOM & Kilkeel, as well as Moel-Y-Parc to the south.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

52, 56, 66 & 68 are Clermont Carn analogue, 54, 58 & 61 are Camlough analogue as well as 54 & 58 being used by Three Rock/Kippure, as you know.

42 & 49 are used by Ramsey, IOM & Kilkeel, as well as Moel-Y-Parc to the south.

Many thanks for coming back on this,I cannot understand this,as I am using a little rec/monitor switched to DTT,not Analogue.
Shall investigate further.The comments made by Sam are also very interesting.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

52, 56, 66 & 68 are Clermont Carn analogue, 54, 58 & 61 are Camlough analogue as well as 54 & 58 being used by Three Rock/Kippure, as you know.

42 & 49 are used by Ramsey, IOM & Kilkeel, as well as Moel-Y-Parc to the south.

Could it be,that I am picking up interference from Moel-Y-Parc on the IOM rig which as you know is Group B /V,and that this interference is coming from the back of the Yagi?,( it is looking N.and West of IOM.)
Alls well at present ,including HD on Ch 50,but two days ago,I could only receive Ch 42 and 49 and not even SD from IOM.