Economic collapse - not one person jailed nor politician sacked/resigned

darkman2

In the US the former head of Lehmans was put away - he will die in jail. Here were Anglo Irish Bank has had a proportionally bigger effect on all of us Fitzpatrick can walk to and from his mansion unmolested.

Not one politician or person responsible jailed. What does that tell you about Ireland? What does it tell you about us? You and I have to suffer and not one of the fcukers who lead us here pays the price they should.

starbelgrade

What it says about us as a nation, is that we have a lot to learn.

msg11

We are too laid back.

Look, I live where that gob****e Bertie lives well same district. And I recently seen a photo of a mate and him in the Beaumont House. Why the **** would anyone want a photo with him?

See there's your answer, we all talk about these people. When we are face to face with them nothing is said.

The truth be, we couldn't give a flying **** about any off it.

Just something else to talk about.

starbelgrade

msg11 wrote: »

I live where that gob****e Bertie lives well same district.

Drumcondra, also known as District 9.

IM0

msg11 wrote: »

Just something else to talk complain about.

fyp.

laugh

I resigned, but I was just bored of the whole thing.

Ruu_Old

Ah, shure it'll be alright.

K-9

darkman2 wrote: »

Fitzpatrick can walk to and from his mansion unmolested.

Molest him away if you want.

Einhard

darkman2 wrote: »

In the US the former head of Lehmans was put away - he will die in jail.

No he wasn't -no he won't.

You do know that Bernie Madoff had nothing to do with Lehman's?

starbelgrade

Einhard wrote: »

No he wasn't -no he won't.

You do know that Bernie Madoff had nothing to do with Lehman's?

He should've been called Bernie Made Off.

Made off with me money!

11:11

One feels helpless I guess. By the way, you do understand that anyone who tries to jail these people or even 'get angry' at them will have the full force of the law thrown on them. These guys can afford court.....court will bankrupt any average person..

What a world

Chorcai

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055985248

Not one of them will go to jail. Instead we give them more money 0_o

orourkeda

11:11 wrote: »

One feels helpless I guess. By the way, you do understand that anyone who tries to jail these people or even 'get angry' at them will have the full force of the law thrown on them. These guys can afford court.....court will bankrupt any average person..

What a world

whose responsibility is it to prosecute these people. surely the states and not your average joe

Cianos

msg11 wrote: »

We are too laid back.

Look, I live where that gob****e Bertie lives well same district. And I recently seen a photo of a mate and him in the Beaumont House. Why the **** would anyone want a photo with him?

See there's your answer, we all talk about these people. When we are face to face with them nothing is said.

The truth be, we couldn't give a flying **** about any off it.

Just something else to talk about.

And did you say this to your mate?

11:11

orourkeda wrote: »

whose responsibility is it to prosecute these people. surely the states and not your average joe

Therein lies the problem.

The state are the banks.

What a pickle

Rockshamrover

I think the word that best this is apathy, not that I care.

11:11

I think no issue divides me most.

Do we look for blood, or do we appreciate what we have and live and let live?

Forgiveness is the word I believe.

thebaz

Sure David Drumm is going to sue the state instead ... for stress .... we the State are the bad guys for not allowing the elite party to continue - actually I thought it was pretty poor form , and a big PR gaffe, allowing Bertie and Brian Cowen to be photographed smiling and laughing at the Galway races , the epicentre of the golden circle

Biggins

11:11 wrote: »

I think no issue divides me most.

Do we look for blood, or do we appreciate what we have and live and let live?

Forgiveness is the word I believe.

No, "complete and utter accountable change" is the right words.

We have been in the stagnant area of "live and let live" too long.
Look where is has gotten us!

dotsman

Firstly, as already discussed there is a culture of apathy in Ireland when it comes to politics. I mean, it goes way beyond the current economic scenario. We spend the whole time bitching about the health & education systems, moan about the scumbags on our streets, complain about our town/city streets on a Saturday night, but what do we ever change - nothing? We love to bitch, nothing more. Why do you think AH (one big bitchfest) is so popular?

Secondly, our economic situation is different to America's. Their's was purely a banking crisis, based on massive deception and corruption at the top levels. Our economic situation is actually far more complex and grey. Even without a banking crisis, we still would have had a recession (except it wouldn't have been so bad). Our recession was caused by 2 very different factors:

1. our banking crisis
2. our spending crisis.

The biggest factor was the "spending crisis" and is the main reason for the current wage cuts, tax hikes and job losses. For over a decade, we continuously increased wages (and welfare) and reduced taxes. We threw money at every issue, ignoring the root problem. The result? Massively over-inflated and inefficient public sector, prohibitively expensive private sector, huge inflation, grossly distorted labour market and an immense virtual debt.

The banking crisis was that, while the above was occurring, the banks were making their lending decisions based on the above been normal and permanent, they gave out mortgages to people believing that these people would continue to earn such high salaries (and that they would most likely increase further). They lent huge amounts to wealthy and profitable property developers, assuming that these developers would continue to be wealthy and profitable.

On their own, the above are both big problems. Together, however, they proved to be one dangerous cocktail. Firstly, they hid each other (the taxes raised from property transactions paid for all the $hit in factor 1, while the continuously increasing wages and zero unemployment hid all the pitfalls in factor 2. Secondly, if any of them were to trip (and would eventually do so), it would bring the other crashing down around it as well. The economy collapsed, because the banks could no longer afford to lend then money our economy had unfortunately become addicted to. Now, our economy can't get off it's feet until the banks are cured. Likewise, the banks can't be cured until the economy is back on it's feet!

Anyway, back to my point! The problem with the issues in Ireland is that, although we know that certain high level Anglo folk bent/broke a few rules for their personal gain, this rule-breaking did not cause the recession, and is only a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, a huge number of people are to blame for where we are, and that could quite possibly include you!. If we were to imprison everybody who played a part in bringing about the recession, there would be nobody in the country left (except for the kids, as they weren't didn't have a say in the matter, and the odd person who was in a coma, or took a vow of poverty & silence for the past decade)

Please note: the above is extremely high-level and dumbed down. One could write a thesis on the matter and still on scratch the surface.

11:11

Biggins wrote: »

No, "complete and utter accountable change" is the right words.

We have been in the stagnant area of "live and let live" too long.
Look where is has gotten us!

Well, as I said, I am at odds as what to feel. I won't blame banks entirely though....it is the fault of people who also accept incredibly high loans they know they will never pay back....all for some dream.

But one thing is true....the people who are directly responsible to messing with credit default swaps and who direct bank people to hand out loans in banks to people they know won't pay back need to be held to justice....or else there will be a violent public revolt. Or in Ireland, maybe not! :rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

Einhard wrote: »

No he wasn't -no he won't.

You do know that Bernie Madoff had nothing to do with Lehman's?

Truth has no place now that the rabble has begun.

ejmaztec

11:11 wrote: »

Well, as I said, I am at odds as what to feel. I won't blame banks entirely though....it is the fault of people who also accept incredibly high loans they know they will never pay back....all for some dream.

But one thing is true....the people who are directly responsible to messing with credit default swaps and who direct bank people to hand out loans in banks to people they know won't pay back need to be held to justice....or else there will be a violent public revolt. Or in Ireland, maybe not! :rolleyes:

Do you seriously think that any person borrowing money, never intended to pay it back?:eek:

Berty

Is greed against the law?

Hindsight is a great thing. :rolleyes:

Mark200

Einhard wrote: »

No he wasn't -no he won't.

You do know that Bernie Madoff had nothing to do with Lehman's?

And nothing to do with the economic collapse.

If the OP can name laws that were broken by people who caused the economic collapse, then please inform us. You know, these days people can only be locked up if they actually break the law...

ejmaztec

Mark200 wrote: »

If the OP can name laws that were broken by people who caused the economic collapse, then please inform us. You know, these days people can only be locked up if they actually break the law...

Unless they've got friends in high places.

Ulysses Gaze

Look, 41% of Irish voters voted a party into power that is inherently corrupt and rotten to the core. This corruption and gombeenism has seeped into every facet of Irish life. Primarily in Business life.

We have a country where the Revenue Commissioners refuse point blank to investigate why our former Taoiseach, 'Won it on the Horses' Ahern, has not got a tax clearance certificate and hasn't had one for a number of years.

Would they give anyone else here on Boards the same type of leeway? Balls they would. They'd come down on anyone else like a ton of bricks.

Mark200

ejmaztec wrote: »

Unless they've got friends in high places.

You misread what I said. I was saying that someone who didn't break the law can not be locked up (except for the rare miscarriage of justice etc etc).

My point being, can you or anyone please tell us what law(s) the people responsible for the economic collapse broke?

ejmaztec

Mark200 wrote: »

You misread what I said. I was saying that someone who didn't break the law can not be locked up (except for the rare miscarriage of justice etc etc).

My point being, can you or anyone please tell us what law(s) the people responsible for the economic collapse broke?

That can only be ascertained after a full investigation, and everyone responsible has been dragging their heels since day 1. In the US, for example, Madoff has long-since been banged up, but here there's no sign of anything happening in the short term.

The finger of suspicion is bound to be pointed at those in high office over the delay, and I think that we'd all like to know why it's taking so long.

msg11

Cianos wrote: »

And did you say this to your mate?

Yeah, I said ye should have decked the ****er.

sock puppet

ejmaztec wrote: »

That can only be ascertained after a full investigation, and everyone responsible has been dragging their heels since day 1. In the US, for example, Madoff has long-since been banged up, but here there's no sign of anything happening in the short term.

The finger of suspicion is bound to be pointed at those in high office over the delay, and I think that we'd all like to know why it's taking so long.

Madoff didn't contribute to the economic collapse though, so he's irrelevant to this discussion. His list of crimes would also differ significantly to what anyone in Irish banking could be charged with. For example as far as I'm aware no one in Irish banking has been accused of money laundering.

ejmaztec

sock puppet wrote: »

Madoff didn't contribute to the economic collapse though, so he's irrelevant to this discussion. His list of crimes would also differ significantly to what anyone in Irish banking could be charged with. For example as far as I'm aware no one in Irish banking has been accused of money laundering.

My mention of Madoff is relevant when comparing how fast different countries react in financial cases.

No-one in the public domain knows what anyone in this country can be charged with, until a complete, un-hampered and independent investigation is carried out.

Degsy

The sooner Bono is brought to justice the better for everybody

Mark200

ejmaztec wrote: »

My mention of Madoff is relevant when comparing how fast different countries react in financial cases.

No-one in the public domain knows what anyone in this country can be charged with, until a complete, un-hampered and independent investigation is carried out.

Your mention of Madoff is absolutely irrelevant.. he was convicted of crimes that had nothing at all to do with the economic crises. The only link between what he did and the financial crises was that he worked in the financial sector. That's the only link.

Investigations only happen if there is a suspicion that there is a law broken. You wouldn't like if police started knocking on your door and said they were investigating you for downloading of child porn, or other paedophilia related offences... without any suspicion that any wrong doing occurred. Trading in such a way as to cause an economy to collapse is absolutely not any reason to suspect any laws were broken. Again, if you can name any laws that you think MAY have been broken and are worth investigating then please do.

ejmaztec

Mark200 wrote: »

Your mention of Madoff is absolutely irrelevant.. he was convicted of crimes that had nothing at all to do with the economic crises. The only link between what he did and the financial crises was that he worked in the financial sector. That's the only link.

Investigations only happen if there is a suspicion that there is a law broken. You wouldn't like if police started knocking on your door and said they were investigating you for downloading of child porn, or other paedophilia related offences... without any suspicion that any wrong doing occurred. Trading in such a way as to cause an economy to collapse is absolutely not any reason to suspect any laws were broken. Again, if you can name any laws that you think MAY have been broken and are worth investigating then please do.

We're each entitled to our opinions re the relevance of Madoff.

As for the paedophilia reference, now that is irrelevant.

One would be naive in the extreme, to think that none of the events leading to an economic collapse should be investigated to see whether any laws had been broken.

Mark200

ejmaztec wrote: »

We're each entitled to our opinions re the relevance of Madoff.

As for the paedophilia reference, now that is irrelevant.

One would be naive in the extreme, to think that none of the events leading to an economic collapse should be investigated to see whether any laws had been broken.

My paedophilia reference was to explain in simple terms how law and law enforcement works, and how it should work. I don't want people knocking on my door either, going through my things to see if I committed a crime unless they have reasonable suspicion that I did.

If the cause of the economic collapse is understood by the country's/world's economists then it should be quite obvious whether it's likely any laws were broken. How many countries have locked up someone for causing, or playing a huge part in, the economic collapse? Not very many... I can't think of any off the top of my head anyway.

Celly Smunt

locking them up would cost more money,assassinations/executions are far better options

sligopark

pmcmahon wrote: »

locking them up would cost more money,assassinations/executions are far better options

would have to agree - why don't the real IRA or whoever just start shooting these guys?

Bet they would gather some 'real' support south of the border then past their drug dealing and cigarette smuggling

Celly Smunt

sligopark wrote: »

would have to agree - why don't the real IRA or whoever just start shooting these guys?

Bet they would gather some 'real' support south of the border then past their drug dealing and cigarette smuggling

time for a new resident army?

MultiUmm

dotsman wrote: »

Firstly, as already discussed there is a culture of apathy in Ireland when it comes to politics. I mean, it goes way beyond the current economic scenario. We spend the whole time bitching about the health & education systems, moan about the scumbags on our streets, complain about our town/city streets on a Saturday night, but what do we ever change - nothing? We love to bitch, nothing more. Why do you think AH (one big bitchfest) is so popular?

Secondly, our economic situation is different to America's. Their's was purely a banking crisis, based on massive deception and corruption at the top levels. Our economic situation is actually far more complex and grey. Even without a banking crisis, we still would have had a recession (except it wouldn't have been so bad). Our recession was caused by 2 very different factors:

1. our banking crisis
2. our spending crisis.

The biggest factor was the "spending crisis" and is the main reason for the current wage cuts, tax hikes and job losses. For over a decade, we continuously increased wages (and welfare) and reduced taxes. We threw money at every issue, ignoring the root problem. The result? Massively over-inflated and inefficient public sector, prohibitively expensive private sector, huge inflation, grossly distorted labour market and an immense virtual debt.

The banking crisis was that, while the above was occurring, the banks were making their lending decisions based on the above been normal and permanent, they gave out mortgages to people believing that these people would continue to earn such high salaries (and that they would most likely increase further). They lent huge amounts to wealthy and profitable property developers, assuming that these developers would continue to be wealthy and profitable.

On their own, the above are both big problems. Together, however, they proved to be one dangerous cocktail. Firstly, they hid each other (the taxes raised from property transactions paid for all the $hit in factor 1, while the continuously increasing wages and zero unemployment hid all the pitfalls in factor 2. Secondly, if any of them were to trip (and would eventually do so), it would bring the other crashing down around it as well. The economy collapsed, because the banks could no longer afford to lend then money our economy had unfortunately become addicted to. Now, our economy can't get off it's feet until the banks are cured. Likewise, the banks can't be cured until the economy is back on it's feet!

Anyway, back to my point! The problem with the issues in Ireland is that, although we know that certain high level Anglo folk bent/broke a few rules for their personal gain, this rule-breaking did not cause the recession, and is only a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, a huge number of people are to blame for where we are, and that could quite possibly include you!. If we were to imprison everybody who played a part in bringing about the recession, there would be nobody in the country left (except for the kids, as they weren't didn't have a say in the matter, and the odd person who was in a coma, or took a vow of poverty & silence for the past decade)

Please note: the above is extremely high-level and dumbed down. One could write a thesis on the matter and still on scratch the surface.

One of the most well thought out posts I've ever read, on AH of all places.

Kudos sir.

darkman2

All im saying is not one person has been punished for destroying the country. Not one. What does that say about me, about you, about Ireland? That this is tolerated.

Mark200

darkman2 wrote: »

All im saying is not one person has been punished for destroying the country. Not one. What does that say about me, about you, about Ireland? That this is tolerated.

So you think we should be locking up people who haven't broken any laws? That would definitely indeed say something about you and this country...

K-9

darkman2 wrote: »

All im saying is not one person has been punished for destroying the country. Not one. What does that say about me, about you, about Ireland? That this is tolerated.

There is an investigation ongoing. Yes, it is slow, but it's slow everywhere as far I can see. Enron took ages as well.

I'd say charges will be brought, but they need to be sure it breaches company law.

SoupyNorman

I can see the validity to certain arguments over bankers who may not have broken laws etc, I can accept that we (as a nation) splurged on credit...yes the banks gave it but we as grown adults of sound mind and body took it with both hands.

All in all it's a mixed bag of blame to be distributed but by jesus I and the rest of the country would have their spirits lifted if:

• Fitzpatrick spent a few nights in The Joy, slopping out every day
• Neary had has plump pension gouged out of his account
• Cowen fell over in public

I know these things dont positively add to the recovery but who cares, it's what the people want. My loathing for Cowen grows by the day, his arrogance and defensive, sour attitude is draining the morale of this country further.

The country needs a morale boost before a recovery can really start, singing 'cheerio cheerio cheerio' to FF would be a good start.

darkman2

K-9 wrote: »

There is an investigation ongoing.

You see this is the problem. Fitzpatrick still lives in his mansion - still has his pension - still smiles to the camera.


When those lads were charged with the murder of that guy outside Club Annabell - do you know what I said?

I said to myself not one will get a proper sentence afforded to working class criminals - not one. I was right. I was 100% right. See them and the parents walk into the court with their expensive suits and big coats I knew what would happen as did most in Ireland - these people would not see justice.


It's the same here. Rich people are not punished in this country for crime. Fitzpatrick is a PROVEN corrupt criminal (IL&P and Anglo payments to fool shareholders before the bust). If this was the states and his one bank had a similar impact on them as it has on us he would probrably be on death row right now. And I hope you really realise that.

Jev/N

dotsman wrote: »

Firstly, as already discussed there is a culture of apathy in Ireland when it comes to politics. I mean, it goes way beyond the current economic scenario. We spend the whole time bitching about the health & education systems, moan about the scumbags on our streets, complain about our town/city streets on a Saturday night, but what do we ever change - nothing? We love to bitch, nothing more. Why do you think AH (one big bitchfest) is so popular?

Secondly, our economic situation is different to America's. Their's was purely a banking crisis, based on massive deception and corruption at the top levels. Our economic situation is actually far more complex and grey. Even without a banking crisis, we still would have had a recession (except it wouldn't have been so bad). Our recession was caused by 2 very different factors:

1. our banking crisis
2. our spending crisis.

The biggest factor was the "spending crisis" and is the main reason for the current wage cuts, tax hikes and job losses. For over a decade, we continuously increased wages (and welfare) and reduced taxes. We threw money at every issue, ignoring the root problem. The result? Massively over-inflated and inefficient public sector, prohibitively expensive private sector, huge inflation, grossly distorted labour market and an immense virtual debt.

The banking crisis was that, while the above was occurring, the banks were making their lending decisions based on the above been normal and permanent, they gave out mortgages to people believing that these people would continue to earn such high salaries (and that they would most likely increase further). They lent huge amounts to wealthy and profitable property developers, assuming that these developers would continue to be wealthy and profitable.

On their own, the above are both big problems. Together, however, they proved to be one dangerous cocktail. Firstly, they hid each other (the taxes raised from property transactions paid for all the $hit in factor 1, while the continuously increasing wages and zero unemployment hid all the pitfalls in factor 2. Secondly, if any of them were to trip (and would eventually do so), it would bring the other crashing down around it as well. The economy collapsed, because the banks could no longer afford to lend then money our economy had unfortunately become addicted to. Now, our economy can't get off it's feet until the banks are cured. Likewise, the banks can't be cured until the economy is back on it's feet!

Anyway, back to my point! The problem with the issues in Ireland is that, although we know that certain high level Anglo folk bent/broke a few rules for their personal gain, this rule-breaking did not cause the recession, and is only a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, a huge number of people are to blame for where we are, and that could quite possibly include you!. If we were to imprison everybody who played a part in bringing about the recession, there would be nobody in the country left (except for the kids, as they weren't didn't have a say in the matter, and the odd person who was in a coma, or took a vow of poverty & silence for the past decade)

Please note: the above is extremely high-level and dumbed down. One could write a thesis on the matter and still on scratch the surface.

At least someone here has sense.

Jev/N

darkman2 wrote: »

You see this is the problem. Fitzpatrick still lives in his mansion - still has his pension - still smiles to the camera.

It's the same here. Rich people are not punished in this country for crime. Fitzpatrick is a PROVEN corrupt criminal (IL&P and Anglo payments to fool shareholders before the bust). If this was the states and his one bank had a similar impact on them as it has on us he would probrably be on death row right now. And I hope you really realise that.

FitzPatrick went for bankruptcy, all he has is his wife's pension once they start liquidating his assets, or whatever is left of them. I'm not defending the guy but he's pretty fucked for the next 10 years or more

Also, please tell me what crime ol' Séany committed because I can't seem to think for the life of me. Again, he did some terrible, stupid, unethical things but you can't just jail someone if they didn't break a law

The Pontiac

darkman2 wrote: »

In the US the former head of Lehmans was put away - he will die in jail. Here were Anglo Irish Bank has had a proportionally bigger effect on all of us Fitzpatrick can walk to and from his mansion unmolested. .

We're more interested in introducing 'Plastic Bag Levies' (at €22c a bag); and been the first country in the world to have an outright ban on smoking. Wow!!! Aren't we revolutionary! We'll lead the way..

We'd never have the balls to expel all Romas though, like Sarkozy is proposing to do in France. No way. We'd never do anything like that. God no. Even though everyone knows he's right! But it's not really politically correct, is it?? Do any of the French care? No, because they're thefts and have absolutely no interest in working or adding to the economy.

Anglo Irish Bank???? We were so stupid - not only didn't we jail any of them, we actually put billions into it tying to save it, when the dogs in the street knew it was non-runner. LOL. Oh dear god,, what a country.

Great country, is Ireland!!

darkman2

Jev/N wrote: »

Also, please tell me what crime ol' Séany committed because I can't seem to think for the life of me.

The crime of facilitating the transfer of billions between two banks to fool shareholders, us and international investors. Considering the impact of his bank on you and me - he would either be on death row or never be out of jail in the US - im telling you now. Do you think he would not be at least serving the rest of his life in jail in the US!?

K-9

darkman2 wrote: »

You see this is the problem. Fitzpatrick still lives in his mansion - still has his pension - still smiles to the camera.


When those lads were charged with the murder of that guy outside Club Annabell - do you know what I said?

I said to myself not one will get a proper sentence afforded to working class criminals - not one. I was right. I was 100% right. See them and the parents walk into the court with their expensive suits and big coats I knew what would happen as did most in Ireland - these people would not see justice.


It's the same here. Rich people are not punished in this country for crime. Fitzpatrick is a PROVEN corrupt criminal (IL&P and Anglo payments to fool shareholders before the bust). If this was the states and his one bank had a similar impact on them as it has on us he would probrably be on death row right now. And I hope you really realise that.

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you here.

He isn't proven yet. They have to take their time and pin it down. From my basic understanding of company law, yes, he should be charged, but let's do this right and not feck it up?

He would certainly not be on death row in the US and well you know it. No point in pointless hyperbole!

oooomy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0

I like this guys explaination of the whole crisis and solution at the end