Pistol Propulsion

MonkeyGuy

Which is best, Green gas, Propane, CO2 or maybe even AEP? I'm thinking for a sniper backup if that makes a difference? Any replies appreciated because I'm new to pistols!

gungun

Well, if I was getting a new pistol, I would go for a gbb (more fun than an AEP IMO) and due to CO2 not having cool down, I'd go with that:)

MonkeyGuy

So CO2? I'm not sure how it works exactly so any help?!

gungun

I'm crap when it comes to this chemistry lark, so I haven't a clue why it has no cool down. All I know is that it's a good thing:D
Sorry I can't be of any more help

MonkeyGuy

Do the capsules come with gas in them or how does that work?

gungun

Yeah, you insert a capsule into the mag, they're supposed to go for around 60-70 rounds (if someone could confirm that'd be great)
I believe the CO2 capsules are about €1 each, but you can buy them in bulk so you could get them for a bit less:)

Dogwatch

Used S&W 1911 PD last Sunday and got 3 full mags out of one capsule.

Still some gas left when I opened it. About 25 rounds per mag and it shoot as well as any AEG rifle.

Its BIG and HEAVY but great fun and great recoil as well

Talk to the retailers about bulk purchase, you may be surprised.

Regards

Peter

MonkeyGuy

The only thing that turns me away from co2 is the pure lack of variety.

Eo1n8wrd

LOL
Got a Co2 desert eagle off the boards a couple weeks ago, and i love it!!!
BUT...
i get maybe 40 rounds to a capsule :eek: 50 is pushing it, but it's just such a beast and scarily accurate that i just can't stop plinking with it. :D:D

andy_g

Only reason that co2 has no cool down is that co2 is a cold gas down side is that you have to buy the co2 capsules (sparklets)
comapared to green gas pistols o would prefare co2

Chuck the Buck

Hmmmm.... And there I was always thinking that CO2 was stored as a gas hence no 'cool down' effect unlike with green gas which is stored as a liquid and has to evaporate to create the gas.

MonkeyGuy

So what is more cost effecient? I don't mind giving up some performance if it works out cheaper. And most of the guns I've seen in CO2 aren't to my liking or else the magazine capacity is terrible.

Inari

You've answered your own question - you would prefer a green gas powered pistol

MonkeyGuy

Ok then, so green gas or propane?

Captain Chaos

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

Ok then, so green gas or propane?

They are the same thing. For propane it can be cheaper if you buy it in B&Q or whatever but you need a propane adapter to gas the mags up and it smells a bit when you fire it.

Green gas is treated so it does not smell so much and has a small amount of silicone oil added to it that keeps the GBB lubed up to a limited degree. Good if you are the type that tends not strip down and oil up your GBBs that often.

MonkeyGuy

I know the difference between green gas and propane, it's just the only people I've seen recommending propane are Americans who buy it for two dollars in Wallmart, and from what I've heard it's around fifteen euro here? So, is it really much cheaper after you buy an adaptor and silicone?

NakedDex

andy_g wrote: »

Only reason that co2 has no cool down is that co2 is a cold gas down side is that you have to buy the co2 capsules (sparklets)
comapared to green gas pistols o would prefare co2

Chuck the Buck wrote: »

Hmmmm.... And there I was always thinking that CO2 was stored as a gas hence no 'cool down' effect unlike with green gas which is stored as a liquid and has to evaporate to create the gas.

Chuck is right. CO2 doesn't have a liquid state, only gaseous and liquid. It's odd like that.
The reaction of a liquid evaporating into a gaseous form is naturally endothermic, or in other words, it absorbs heat. If you pour some alcohol (or even the sterilising alcohol gel you see in dispensers) onto your hand, you'll feel it go cold as the alcohol evaoprates. This is the same reaction the Green/propane gas in your magazine is under, absorbing ambient heat. This is where your cool-down effect comes into play, and why the side of your mag tends to develop a frost if you rapidly discharge its contents.
The faster you fire, the lower the pressure in the magazine becomes, and the more heat it draws in from its surrounding environment in order to keep that pressure up, hence why you lose power toward the end of a string of rapid firing.
In colder conditions, the gas pressure is lower to begin with, a consequence of the ambient pressure and gas pressure differential being lower. The other issue with these conditions is the loss of pressure cannot be recovered through the endothermic reaction as quickly due to the lower ambient temperature.

CO2, by it's nature, is still gaseous under some serious pressures. Capsules, contrary to popular belief, are subject to cool down effect, however, the effects aren't remotely as dramatic as they are with Green/propane. They are, in fact, barely noticeable. The only give away is that if you discharge a full CO2 capsule in one burst, it'll rapidly develop a thick coat of frost.
The pressures that CO2 in a capsule is under, often called a caplet (a name that came in from the airgun world, where CO2 is common, but these smaller capsules are in lower favour that bigger tanks), are remarkably high, so ambient temperature and full-auto use have virtually no effect on performance, hence their use in full-auto GBBr's. This is also why they are favoured for winter pistols, as any temperature under about 15C results in even Green gas suffering some serious drop-off in power. Anything below 10C and you might as well leave it at home.



As for the difference between Green and propane, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Green has a slighty (and I mean very slightly) lower pressure due to the inclusion of some atomised silicon to "wet" the gas and stop it from drying out seals. If you're using propane, the instructions from the adaptor makers, Airsoft Innovations, is to add a drop of low visocsity silicon to the adaptor before use for the same reason.

The advantage of propane was that it was cheaper for quite a while. However, the market has gone in a complete U-turn and now Green gas is much cheaper. Something that anyone who uses small blowtorches, like plumbers, will tell you, is that the standard propane tank you'd pick up in the likes of B&Q are now about twice the price they were just two years ago.

Propane also smells unbearably bad too. Not exactly a performance issue, but God help you if you fire it inside and aren't ready for the stench it produces, something akin to a rotting fish covered in urine.



Edit:
Oh yeah, AEPs. The ginger kid of the pistol world.

AEPs are reliable because, like an AEG, they use the ambient air at whatever pressure it is, compress it with a piston, and release it. The higher the air pressure, the higher the output velocity on the day. AEPs, by the nature of the size of their piston and cylinder, don't exactly ramp the heck out of the output pressure though, so don't expect them to go beyond about 270-280 on an average day. At least they're reliable though, and a good choice for a cheap winter pistol.
The one big problem they suffer, from a desireability point of view, is the lack of diversity in the range. They're almost always plastic, don't have a recoil mech (although I think TM have one that do now) and the range seems to be limited to Glock 18c's and M93r's for the most part.

CO2 pistols don't have a massive line of variants yet either, as I noted in the news thread yesterday, but there's more coming out slowly but surely. CO2 pistols are about to take off, so expect a bigger range of the next 12-18 months.

MonkeyGuy

Well i won't be able to wait a year but I won't be getting it till late september at the earliest. Anyone know if there's meant to be any CO2 releases between now and then? Gas seems to fidgety in our weather and I've enough trouble with batterys on full size AEGs so that's probably AEPs out. And I'd like everyone to give NakedDex a round of applause!

NakedDex

Just here to help. As the saying goes; "you don't learn anything without asking questions", but someone needs to answer them first.

There's more and more CO2 releases happening. I'm seeing plenty of them appear in the shop. There seems to be a big push on CO2 pistols lately, as I said, but a lot of them are NBB's. The Dan Wesson revolvers, for example, are fantastic, but are limited by their six-shot nature and fidgety reload (even with the speedloader). ASG have a few NBB pistols, like the Steyr M9, that provide good performance. The lack of any recoil puts virtually everyone off though. Pistols aren't much fun without blow-back.
KJW has been doing CO2 M92's for some time, and their recent-ish M1911 is absolutely outstanding (and that's coming from someone who truly hates M1911's). The recoil on it can only be described as vicious.

I'm very, very seriously getting one. I was being tempted, lately, by the KJW Sig SP2022, which I've been lusting after for quite a while now. A few weeks back I had both in front of me. I fired a few shots with the Sig and found the kick to be decent and the accuracy and cycle rate to be good, not dissimilar to the KJW Sig P226. I then fired said 1911 and nearly made a gooey mess of myself. After recovering, I fired the SP2022 again and it felt as if there was no recoil whatsoever, purely by comparison to the M1911.

Seriously, if you get a chance to try out the KJW CO2 1911, be careful. It's a fantastic pistol, with beautiful detailing and a truly astonishing performance, but it'll ruin other pistols for you. It hasn't just moved the goalposts, it's disassembled them and smegged off to another continent with them.

MonkeyGuy

That's absolutely great because I adore 1911s! And if they were a bit cheaper I don't think I'd mind an NBB. Apparently, the lack of blowback means they're much quiter for sniping. Although, like you said, revolvers look awesome, but they just aren't practical. May I ask which shop you work in or own? Or by, "The shop" do you just mean your home away from home?!

NakedDex

Eirsoft, though far be it from me to be using this as a shameless plug. You'll find me there at weekends.

As for NBB's being quieter, this is only true of the Green gas NBB's as the CO2 ones make a remarkably loud "snap" noise as they fire, louder than some GBB's I've used.
The two of note, for their silence, are the TM Mk23 SOCOM (aka "the gun from Metal Gear Solid") and the Maruzen P99 NBB (they do a GBB version too).
The Mk23 is marginally more accurate, but the P99 is a bit quieter. What wins the battle is the ergonomics. The Mk23 is a pretty large gun. It's big, it's bulky and the silencer is huge. It's also not massively comfortable to hold, and it's made of ABS top to bottom, leaving it feeling somewhat delicate.
The P99, however, is reasonably compact, exceptionally comfortable to hold and the silencer isn't hugely intrusive either. The materials feel infinitely more sturdy too, with fibre reinforced polymers used in the frame.

MonkeyGuy

Ok well I know I said I wouldn't mind an NBB but if I'm spending that much money I may aswell go for the "full experience" of a blowback. I've heard great things about the mk23 but looking back I remember someone here said before, "If you're sniping and you need to use your pistol, you've obviously done something wrong". And if I do something wrong and there's multiple AEGs firing on me, I'm probably not going to win so I may aswell I enjoy myself shooting the thing! Is it just me or do the m1911s seem to be very popular in CO2?

TerrorFirmer

I only use co2 pistols, and agreed the range isn't stellar, but it's not bad. At least, what's available is fairly diverse.

I've used the Desert Eagle, 1911, M9, Jericho, Taurus Pt24/7, Sigma 40F and Taurus PT99/Pt92.

The Jericho is the worst in terms of realism, as it's NBB and lacks the chunky feel of the also NBB Taurus PT24/7. But Co2 pistols still make a distinct pop when fired even with the NBB models, so they are a very long away from the whisper quietness offered by some of the gas nbb models. And it's a very compact pistol. The 24/7 looks very cool and it's such a shame that it's only NBB, as it even comes in a metal slide version. But NBB are very efficient with co2.

The 1911 and Desert Eagle have the best 'wow' factor - the Eagle is an absolute beast all around, but it's impractically huge. The Beretta is kick ass all around, looks and feels amazing, but my favorite is the Taurus Pt99. It's awesome on full auto, miles better than any gas M93 or G18/26c.

The PT92 doesn't have auto so is basically an uglier version of the M9, not sure why anyone would buy that one.

My least favourite was the Sigma 40F, for simply being as ugly as sin. And extended mags without auto capability are just weird...

Dogwatch

Not strictly about the actual pistols but has anyone got a decent holster to take the weight and bulk of the S&W 1911 PD.

I have tried several but have yet to find one which copes well with its size.
TIA

thermo

Dogwatch wrote: »

Not strictly about the actual pistols but has anyone got a decent holster to take the weight and bulk of the S&W 1911 PD.

I have tried several but have yet to find one which copes well with its size.
TIA

I use protac holsters, made for the military so they are tough and easily stand up to abuse.

MonkeyGuy

Dogwatch wrote: »

Not strictly about the actual pistols but has anyone got a decent holster to take the weight and bulk of the S&W 1911 PD.

I have tried several but have yet to find one which copes well with its size.
TIA

Actually I was about to ask a similiar question! There seems to be very few holsters I can find that aren't in black.

Dogwatch

thermo wrote: »

I use protac holsters, made for the military so they are tough and easily stand up to abuse.

Cheers :D:D:D:D:D

MonkeyGuy

Where can you get Protac holsters?

Dogwatch

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

Where can you get Protac holsters?

http://www.protac.ie/store/ :eek::eek::eek:

MonkeyGuy

How have I not seen this website before?!

Dogwatch

Cant answer that , too hard, but hope it helps:D:D:D:D

MonkeyGuy

Ok so holsters are sorted now. So which is more efficient? Green gas or CO2?

.22 Lover

CO2 in cold weather and green gas in warm weather.

MonkeyGuy

Well you can get 10 CO2 capsules for the price of 1000ml of green gas so which would get more shots. I know it varies from gun to gun so on an average sized pistol, roughly how much?

Dogwatch

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

Well you can get 10 CO2 capsules for the price of 1000ml of green gas so which would get more shots. I know it varies from gun to gun so on an average sized pistol, roughly how much?

If you intend to reload in the field the CO2 is the way to go, the alternative is carrying a can of gas with you or stashing it somewhere on the field.
With CO2, you just need speed loader and a bit of cover.

MonkeyGuy

I intend on getting enough mags to last me a game but in termss of money which is cheaper for shots fired?

.22 Lover

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

Well you can get 10 CO2 capsules for the price of 1000ml of green gas so which would get more shots. I know it varies from gun to gun so on an average sized pistol, roughly how much?

In genral 1 CO2 capsule will give a CO2 gbb 2 mags worth in your avrage combat pistol thats around 45 shots.

MonkeyGuy

And how many mags would you get from a bottle of green gas?