Should Tolls on Comuter Routes be tax deductable?

Twin-go

Just a thought. I live in Shannon and work in Raheen. I've started using the Limerick Tunnel this week. @€;3.60 a day or €18 per week or €831.80 per year assuming 4 weeks holidays and bank holidays, it will work out very expensive. I will have to wait a few weeks to see what sort of fuel savings I will be getting but lets say I save €200 a year in fuel it's still going to be €630 more a year to pay to use the tunnel. (It will give me about 4.5 days back over the year at a cost of €140 per day)

My question is should this be tax deductable or should some sort of group scheme for businesses be set up to make it a little more affordable to daily users?

Absurdum

not a hope in hell

Cookie_Monster

should petrol be tax deductible as well? :rolleyes:

DublinDilbert

It works out very expensive but not a chance they'll change it. They recently changed the law so they can add VAT on top of services provided by the government.

What happened with the M50 is pre government buy out the price included VAT (which could be reclaimed by businesses). After the buy out the price remained the same, but there was no VAT, so for businesses there was effectively a 21% increase in price. Now apparently with recent changes they are going to charge VAT on the current price, which will be a 21% increase for the average person, but no increase for business (as it can be reclaimed).

Twin-go

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

should petrol be tax deductible as well? :rolleyes:

Yes for milage between your place of work and home. All other usage, no.

bladespin

Tollls are deductable, but only if you're using the tolls as part of your job, not on the way to it, this is Ireland of course, there are that many jobs you can choose one that doesn't drag you across the M50 etc. :rolleyes:

In an ideal would you could set yourself up as a contractor (self employed) and claim the tolls back along with any other expense incurred on the way to the job.

Of course, if a TD was to pass a toll it would be expensed.

It's double taxation TBH, the revenue get their share of your earnings and then tax you again on the expenses involved in earning them in the first palce.

Cookie_Monster

Twin-go wrote: »

Yes for milage between your place of work and home. All other usage, no.

why? no one is forcing you to drive to work or commute long distances. its your own choice.
edit: why should people subsidise you to drive your own car to work?

Twin-go

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why? no one is forcing you to drive to work or commute long distances. its your own choice. edit: why should people subsidise you to drive your own car to work?

Sorry, but with the current economic climate in this country and availability of jobs its not really my own choice where I can find work. Plus Shannon to Limerick is hardly a long commute.

Edit: There is no public transport alternative that is suitable. The one that is available would add a 4 hour coummute to my day. Plus I used it when I was in UL it wasn't the most reliable service.

keithclancy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why? no one is forcing you to drive to work or commute long distances. its your own choice.

Don't know about Ireland but the Germans encourage you not to live close to work due to over crowding and inflationary issues caused by high population density.

I get 35 cent / kilometer.

I commute 128km each way per day, why .. because I don't want to live or force my partner to have to live in Germany.

Meh .. if your single I guess its a valid point.

Twin-go

keithclancy wrote: »

Don't know about Ireland but the Germans encourage you not to live close to work due to over crowding and inflationary issues caused by high population density.

I get 35 cent / kilometer.

I commute 128km each way per day, why .. because I don't want to live or force my partner to have to live in Germany.

Meh .. if your single I guess its a valid point.

If I got 35cent per km it would more than cover my petrol and toll for the week

Cookie_Monster

Twin-go wrote: »

Sorry, but with the current economic climate in this country and availability of jobs its not really my own choice where I can find work. Plus Shannon to Limerick is hardly a long commute.

A few people have made that point before but I don't believe its valid tbh. You can move, use public transport, car share, cycle, plenty of jobs around* etc etc etc

* industry dependant obviously so not always an option.

Twin-go wrote: »

Edit: There is no public transport alternative that is suitable. The one that is available would add a 4 hour coummute to my day.

there's no viable public transport from Shannon to Limerick? BE 341, 343 for a start...

Cookie_Monster

keithclancy wrote: »

Don't know about Ireland but the Germans encourage you not to live close to work due to over crowding and inflationary issues caused by high population density.

I get 35 cent / kilometer.

I commute 128km each way per day, why .. because I don't want to live or force my partner to have to live in Germany.

Meh .. if your single I guess its a valid point.

is that a flat rate in Germany or a generous employer, cos thats a big cost to them I'm sure. they have to pay €90 quid a day just to get you to work, thats insane!
(128*2*.35)*365*5/7=23k a year in travel expenses :eek: Are you a politician :P

blastman

DublinDilbert wrote: »

It works out very expensive but not a chance they'll change it. They recently changed the law so they can add VAT on top of services provided by the government.

"They" being the EU, of course...

Twin-go

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A few people have made that point before but I don't believe its valid tbh. You can move, use public transport, car share, cycle, plenty of jobs around* etc etc etc

* industry dependant obviously so not always an option.

there's no viable public transport from Shannon to Limerick? BE 341, 343 for a start...

Have you ever used that Bus Eirean service?

Lets break it down:
Cost:
Shannon to Limerick (Adult Weekly €35.55)
City to Raheen (Adult weekly €17.00)
Total €52.55

Times: (I start work at 8am)
City to Raheen 7am or 8am bus only go to Industrial estate. I would have to take 7am to be on time.
But, the first 343 service departs Shannon at 6.45am. gets to Limerick at 7.30. So I would have to then take the 8am bus and be late for work. Added to that the waiting around for the buses that may or may not show up on time. And if we had a winter like last winter it would be great to be out standing in the cold every morning before 6.45.

So please tell me how I can use this Public transport option at a cost of over €50 per week and be on time for work, no get sick from been out in the cold? I have the use of my car with the added benifits of, I can stay in bed 30 mins longer, and have heated seats and be home at a reasonable hour all the while not having to wait out in the cold.

Cookie_Monster

Twin-go wrote: »

So please tell me how I can use this Public transport option at a cost of over €50 per week and be on time for work, no get sick from been out in the cold? I have use my car with the added benifits of, I can stay in bed 30 mins longer, and have heated seats and be home at a reasonable hour all the while not having to wait out in the cold.

and thats a choice you are making and thats fine. But why do you expect the taxpayer to subsidise you when there is another (not great) option there that is already subsidised?

keithclancy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

is that a flat rate in Germany or a generous employer, cos thats a big cost to them I'm sure. they have to pay €90 quid a day just to get you to work, thats insane!
(128*2*.35)*365*5/7=23k a year in travel expenses :eek: Are you a politician :P

35cent one way only, works out at about 7000 euros / year in tax deduction, work from home 1 day per week and accounting for 30 days holidays 15 bank hols

Considering Road tax, fuel, insurance, depreciation, wear and tear, repairs, servicing it doesn't cover the whole cost

Cookie_Monster

keithclancy wrote: »

Considering Road tax, fuel, insurance, depreciation, wear and tear, repairs, servicing it doesn't cover the whole cost

all costs you would have anyway (unless you only have the car for work)
still nice money if you can get it!

Twin-go

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and thats a choice you are making and thats fine. But why do you expect the taxpayer to subsidise you when there is another (not great) option there that is already subsidised?

If the government want people out of their cars and into Public Transport it has to offer a real alternative. Right now on my commute the alternative to the car - Costs more in money and time and does not get me to work on time. I have NO choice. I have to use my car if I want to be in work on time.

I just think there should be a price reduction in the Toll for frequent users where a Public transport alternative is not available.

keithclancy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

all costs you would have anyway (unless you only have the car for work)
still nice money if you can get it!

meh, works out around the same as Ireland really, tax is much higher here, cars are more expensive. Just you get taxed more at source and get the money back.

Esel

How much time and petrol will you save in a year using the tunnel?

jimmycrackcorm

I'm both flummoxed and bemused by the ops question. He wishes to take advantage of the time savings of a new improved road infrastructure and yet get rewarded for doing so also.

It's a deja vu of the dublin bus saver ticket scheme. Bravo!

Cabaal

How exactly do you decided a Comuter route? Surely every road can be used by Comuters?

C0N0R

I heard somewhere there was a bulk discount scheme but don't quote me on that. But tell me this, is there anything stopping you from going through limerick instead of using the tunnel like you used to I imagine. It would probably work out quicker than before due to people using the tunnel. So that way everybody happy!

Just a disclaimer, I'm not from Limerick and my knowledge of it is zero.

cyclopath2001

Twin-go wrote: »

If the government want people out of their cars and into Public Transport it has to offer a real alternative.

No it does not. There is limited road space, so those who use it least efficiently should pay more than those who use it sparingly.

It BeeMee

Twin-go wrote: »

Yes for milage between your place of work and home. All other usage, no.

Is that you, Ivor?

Lets face it, if travelling expenses to work were tax deductable, everyone would suddenly live 100 miles away from their workplace. It will never be a runner.

cullen5998

Twin-go wrote: »

Just a thought. I live in Shannon and work in Raheen. I've started using the Limerick Tunnel this week. @€;3.60 a day or €18 per week or €831.80 per year assuming 4 weeks holidays and bank holidays, it will work out very expensive. I will have to wait a few weeks to see what sort of fuel savings I will be getting but lets say I save €200 a year in fuel it's still going to be €630 more a year to pay to use the tunnel. (It will give me about 4.5 days back over the year at a cost of €140 per day)

My question is should this be tax deductable or should some sort of group scheme for businesses be set up to make it a little more affordable to daily users?

Get a tag, should save you about 10%

Plus 1.80 is great value if you have an extra few minutes at home.
Time is money:D

bladespin

bladespin wrote: »

In an ideal would you could set yourself up as a contractor (self employed) and claim the tolls back along with any other expense incurred on the way to the job.
.

As a self employed contractor who work in predominantly one site at a time for a period of 6 months to a year, that site becomes your place of work and so expenses incurred getting to and from it are not business expenses. Also as a contractor I hear lots of folk telling me I can claim x,y and z back as an expense, espensed are taken from money earned by the business, not from some magic free money pit that folks reckon exists for contractors to plunder

Back to the OP, tolls on commuter routes, lol, define comuter route.

Twin-go

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm both flummoxed and bemused by the ops question. He wishes to take advantage of the time savings of a new improved road infrastructure and yet get rewarded for doing so also.

It's a deja vu of the dublin bus saver ticket scheme. Bravo!

I am by no means looking to get rewarded for it, I just want it to cost me less than €860 per year. As a car driver covering 15k miles p.a. paying about €1600 (and increasing) for petrol and €551 in motor tax as weel as the other assosiated costs of motoring it just takes a sizable part of my income just to be able to get to work.

I think they could remove Motor Tax and VAT on car servicing and add a % onto petrol. Then the user really would pay.

Twin-go

cullen5998 wrote: »

Get a tag, should save you about 10%

Plus 1.80 is great value if you have an extra few minutes at home.
Time is money:D

Checked around. No discount for tag users. They cost from an extra 10% per journey to a rental fee of €1.20 - €1.25 per month.

Twin-go

RoverJames wrote: »

Back to the OP, tolls on commuter routes, lol, define comuter route.

It could be defined by the shortest distance by road between your place of residence and your place of work. Or zonaly.

Something similar is done for Third Level grants. The further you live from the collage the higher the grant.

Cookie_Monster

if its going to cost you so much why not just take an alternate route?

Tea 1000

To the OP, just take the Dock road as usual I reckon. To all the nay-sayers, the OP has a point. Everyone is lambasting him because he should be glad to pay for an improved service, but look at the figures. €850 per year for one 4 mile stretch of road? And that's after paying motortax. Is motortax not designed to charge the motorist for use of the roads so that they can use that money for their upkeep? Why then do we have to pay twice?
I like the idea of tolled roads to be honest, if it means we get good roads to drive on. But if you're going to charge that much for them, then reduce motortax from their extortionate rates of up to €2,100 per year.
And €1.80 for the tunnel is a classic Irish example of simpletons doing the pricing. As it turns out, not one person that I've spoken to are planning on using the tunnel on a regular basis thanks to that price. Everyone said if it were €1 or there abouts, they'd use it far more frequently. What kind of gobshíte charges an amount for a road that'll deter people away?
And also, why do we have to pay more for toll tags, when they should be used to reward the frequent users while at the same time saving having to pay for an employee at a toll booth? Pathetic shít is what it is.

Twin-go

Twin-go wrote: »

Something similar is done for Third Level grants. The further you live from the collage the higher the grant.

Something similar ? Eh, live near the college you get €x, live more than a certain distance away you get €y.

bladespin

RoverJames wrote: »

As a self employed contractor who work in predominantly one site at a time for a period of 6 months to a year, that site becomes your place of work and so expenses incurred getting to and from it are not business expenses. Also as a contractor I hear lots of folk telling me I can claim x,y and z back as an expense, espensed are taken from money earned by the business, not from some magic free money pit that folks reckon exists for contractors to plunder

Back to the OP, tolls on commuter routes, lol, define comuter route.

Move around a bit

Expenses are taken from the gross profir of the company, unless you work in the civil service then it's the magic money pit.

NewApproach

OP, how do you propose to implement the tax relief?

Esel

bladespin wrote: »

Move around a bit

Expenses are taken from the gross profir of the company, unless you work in the civil service then it's the magic money pit.

He said he's self-employed - what part of that is hard to understand?

monkeypants

There used to be a part of the yearly tax free allowance dedicated to travel, can't recall exactly when it was phased out. It was a small amount, somewhere between IR£140 and IR£200 per year.

Twin-go

NewApproach wrote: »

OP, how do you propose to implement the tax relief?

It could work similar to the Tax releif on Service Carges.

Revenue.ie wrote:

Tax Relief on Service Charges

Income tax relief is available for individuals who pay local authority and other service charges. Relief is given for service charges paid in full and on time in the previous calendar year

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it1.html#section14

Cookie_Monster

Those service charges ones are being axed iirc

Stark

Tea 1000 wrote:

Is motortax not designed to charge the motorist for use of the roads so that they can use that money for their upkeep? Why then do we have to pay twice?

No it isn't. It's just a standard luxury tax. It's not ringfenced for road investment and most of the money for our roads comes from the general taxation pool and from German taxpayers.

Twin-go

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Those service charges ones are being axed iirc

And your point is..............?

I was asked how I think the tax relief for toll charges could be implimented. What does it matter if the current Service Charge Tax relief is been axed?

Twin-go

Stark wrote: »

No it isn't. It's just a standard luxury tax. It's not ringfenced for road investment and most of the money for our roads comes from the general taxation pool and from German taxpayers.

Well then the question should be why is it not ring-fenced?

For many a car is not a luxury it's a requirement for many due to governments poor regional development strategies and lack of investment in public transport.

Cookie_Monster

Twin-go wrote: »

And your point is..............?

I was asked how I think the tax relief for toll charges could be implimented. What does it matter if the current Service Charge Tax relief is been axed?

just FYI.

Anyway do you honestly see the public supporting this, or any politician, or the Revenue. Its a crazy, selfish idea.

Turbulent Bill

Twin-go wrote: »

Well then the question should be why is it not ring-fenced?

For many a car is not a luxury it's a requirement for many due to governments poor regional development strategies and lack of investment in public transport.

At a guess there's no ring-fencing because roads are an open public resource, similar to our (malfunctioning) public health system. As a very broad comparison, it would be the equivalent of only sick people paying for the HSE.

As a PAYE worker I pay €4 each day to use the Westlink bridge for commuting, using the cheapest toll option available. There's a non-tolled route available, but I'm willing to pay for the time (and presumably fuel) savings.

NewApproach

Twin-go wrote: »

It could work similar to the Tax releif on Service Carges.


http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it1.html#section14

Do you think it is economical to administer this tax relief?

Tax Relief on Service Charges as they stand require only a handful of invoices a year.

If you were to bring in your proposed tax relief, the number of reciepts and invoices submitted would increase possible a hundred fold. The cost to revenue in staff time would simply make it unworkable.

Shane732

The question is somewhat irrelevant -

The tolls are (in theory) worked out by pricing models so that, for example, in year 10 the road will hit profit. If you receive tax relief on the tolls paid then this would just have to be worked into the model and the net result would be the same - i.e. you'd pay a higher toll and receive tax relief.

You pay €1.80 and receive no tax relief or pay €3.05 and receive tax relief.

Shane732

esel wrote: »

He said he's self-employed - what part of that is hard to understand?

I missed the post where the OP said he was self-employed so I'm quoting yours esel.

If the OP is self employed then expenses such as petrol, tolls etc... are deductible against the OP's income. (Naturally assuming the expense are wholly and exclusively incurred for the purpose of the OP's trade).

daveharnett

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

edit: why should people subsidise you to drive your own car to work?

Nobody need subsidize anything. By offering a 'frequent flyer' discount, the tunnel operator can collect money from motorists who will otherwise use the free alternative.

Stark

Twin-go wrote: »

So please tell me how I can use this Public transport option at a cost of over €50 per week and be on time for work, no get sick from been out in the cold? I have the use of my car with the added benifits of, I can stay in bed 30 mins longer, and have heated seats and be home at a reasonable hour all the while not having to wait out in the cold.

So you're going with the car because it's the cheaper option but you want the taxpayer to subsidize you so it'll be even cheaper for you and you can have a lie-in and a warm ass on the way to work? Like Cookie_Monster said, it's a crazy selfish idea that thankfully won't get any traction.

Twin-go

Stark wrote: »

So you're going with the car because it's the cheaper option but you want the taxpayer to subsidize you so it'll be even cheaper for you and you can have a lie-in and a warm ass on the way to work? Like Cookie_Monster said, it's a crazy selfish idea that thankfully won't get any traction.

Selfish? What do you think I would do with the extra cash saved? Maybe I would spend it in the local economy. Maybe I could buy Irish produce. Maybe I could go on a Irish holiday. And maybe just maybe help to keep/create some jobs in the locality because the government sure isn't doing much on that front.

Why can't people here think about the bigger picture? Bring some idea's to the table. Instead they shoot down and rubish any ideas brought up. I know I would much prefer to give my money to the local farmer, shop keeper or hotelier than to the government to bail out the banks.

Cookie_Monster

Twin-go wrote: »

Why can't people here think about the bigger picture? Bring some idea's to the table. Instead they shoot down and rubish any ideas brought up. I know I would much prefer to give my money to the local farmer, shop keeper or hotelier than to the government to bail out the banks.

and I'd rather my tax was spent on something sensible rather than subsidising your unnecessary commute by private car.