Hospital wards closing, staff let go - what a country???

changes

Hi

I heard on the radio Letterkenny General Hospital are closing 2 wards and letting 100 staff go. One of the staff was on the radio there saying she knew nothing until she was called in this morning and was told she is being let go. She was on a temporary contract for the last 5 years.

I'd guess that more hospitals around the country will follow suit.

This is the inevitable fall out from the banking crisis and the governments mismanagement of the country over the last 15 years. People's health will suffer.

Should people tolerate this? I always thought people's health was more important than anything else..... maybe the government don't see it this way.

RichardAnd

Whilst I have sympathy for those who will be out of a job, it is unfortunately necessary to close hospital wards. We have too many small hospitals scattered throughout the country and these simply cost us money we don't have.

As for people's health well this is sadly a case of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. Most likely though, the next few years will see the end of small hospitals that will be amalgamated into several larger ones. Much cheaper and much more efficient.

changes

But as usual its done back to front. They will close wards and let staff go without first increasing the services in the nearest larger hospital. The queues will get longer and people will suffer. But that won't bother mary harney or this government.... so long as anglo gets their 10 billion!

Pete_Cavan

Why do people keep starting up threads that are basically the same as active threads? The debate here will just follow the same line as the Public sector needs more pay cuts thread. Me and Head the Wall will say we wouldnt have to get rid of these staff if we didnt have to pay them so much, while Riskymove and opinion guy will argue that the doctors deserve their salaries. Same thing over and over again.

RichardAnd

changes wrote: »

But as usual its done back to front. They will close wards and let staff go without first increasing the services in the nearest larger hospital. The queues will get longer and people will suffer. But that won't bother mary harney or this government.... so long as anglo gets their 10 billion!

Never mind Anglo, the reason cuts are being made is because of our deficit. Every year, we're borrowing almost as much as we gave anglo just to keep the country ticking over.

As to your remark about this government. Well I'm not a FF supporter but I will tell you that FG would probably close the same hospital. Closing hospitals, not building schools and making other cuts is just something that has to be done. No matter who is in power, these unpopular actions will have to be taken.

RichardAnd

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why do people keep starting up threads that are basically the same as active threads? The debate here will just follow the same line as the Public sector needs more pay cuts thread. Me and Head the Wall will say we wouldnt have to get rid of these staff if we didnt have to pay them so much, while Riskymove and opinion guy will argue that the doctors deserve their salaries. Same thing over and over again.

Isn't that just about every thread on these boards

Twas them Bankers what done it!!!

changes

RichardAnd wrote: »

As to your remark about this government. Well I'm not a FF supporter but I will tell you that FG would probably close the same hospital. Closing hospitals, not building schools and making other cuts is just something that has to be done. No matter who is in power, these unpopular actions will have to be taken.

I can't see Letterkenny General Hospital being closed. As for anglo, 10 billion is a fair chunk of money so it can't just be set aside as a non issue.

I'm beginning to think we are incapable of governing ourselves.

ednwireland

as ever its easier to close wards and let contract staff go
the real problem is that the hse is totally top heavy with admin staff
remember getting rid of the health boards and efficiency savings that were to be made - it never happened not one person let go
and as its letterkenny hospital remember all those FF idiots the people up here keep voting for well its there doing and not one should be re-elected (but that will never happen they'll still vote for mcdaid, coughlan gallagher and the rest )

Nody

changes wrote: »

This is the inevitable fall out from the banking crisis and the governments mismanagement of the country over the last 15 years. People's health will suffer.

Yes, the raises were way out of line with what was available making it to expensive to keep wards open.

Should people tolerate this? I always thought people's health was more important than anything else..... maybe the government don't see it this way.

Why not? If the governmentt that you are blaming would try to ratify the problem by adjusting the salaries to the appropiate level you'd be screaming bloody murder about it.

dean21

RichardAnd wrote: »

Never mind Anglo, the reason cuts are being made is because of our deficit. Every year, we're borrowing almost as much as we gave anglo just to keep the country ticking over.

As to your remark about this government. Well I'm not a FF supporter but I will tell you that FG would probably close the same hospital. Closing hospitals, not building schools and making other cuts is just something that has to be done. No matter who is in power, these unpopular actions will have to be taken.

So as people die on trolleys while our Td's are still overpaid and are still getting travel expenses to go to work and are on holiday for 3 months
Why the f**K are they getting travel expenses
Like I know they have not a brain cell but I am sure they new where the Dail was before they went for election
And don’t forget Harney spend 36k partying around new zeland

dean21

Nody wrote: »

Yes, the raises were way out of line with what was available making it to expensive to keep wards open.

Why not? If the governmentt that you are blaming would try to ratify the problem by adjusting the salaries to the appropiate level you'd be screaming bloody murder about it.

same old story
lock it now

Pete_Cavan

dean21 wrote: »

So as people die on trolleys while our Td's are still overpaid and are still getting travel expenses to go to work and are on holiday for 3 months
Why the f**K are they getting travel expenses
Like I know they have not a brain cell but I am sure they new where the Dail was before they went for election
And don’t forget Harney spend 36k partying around new zeland

same old story
lock it now

mikemac

ednwireland wrote: »

and as its letterkenny hospital remember all those FF idiots the people up here keep voting for well its there doing and not one should be re-elected (but that will never happen they'll still vote for mcdaid, coughlan gallagher and the rest )

Jim McDaid was expelled from FF

Welease

changes wrote: »

Should people tolerate this? I always thought people's health was more important than anything else..... maybe the government don't see it this way.

No, placating the unions seems their most important policy... This is the front line outcome of standing behind unions while the scant resources we have get pissed away on HSE admin and FAS follies etc. If changes can't be made, then cuts have to come from somewhere.. This is the result..

Head The Wall

So the workload for all The HSE admin staff and management gets less and less every day.

OMD

The reality is we need to assess the hospital needs for the country in general. We should be looking at a major hospital closure plan. We currently have about 35 acute general hospitals in Ireland. On top of this we have specialist hospitals eg, psychiatric hospitals, maternity, paediatric etc and community hospitals. Realistically we should be looking at closing half these hospitals. That however will not happen.

Instead budgets are decided on a per hospital basis. So the hospital gets its individual budget slashed so has to close wards.

changes

Welease wrote: »

No, placating the unions seems their most important policy...

No, closing wards and letting staff go is going head to head with the unions not placating them,

Welease wrote: »

This is the front line outcome of standing behind unions while the scant resources we have get pissed away on HSE admin and FAS follies etc. If changes can't be made, then cuts have to come from somewhere.. This is the result..

This is the outcome of mismanaging the boom and pouring money into the banks

Welease

changes wrote: »

No, closing wards and letting staff go is going head to head with the unions not placating them,



This is the outcome of mismanaging the boom and pouring money into the banks

People can continue to blame the banks.. will that change anything?

Going forward, the CP agreement offerred protection to the swathes of unnecessary admin staff across the HSE.. As they won't be touched, the cuts have to come from somewhere so wards will be closed and temp staff (like the ones you mentioned) removed..

Some wards probably should be closed, and some should probably stay open.. but the options seem pretty limited atm (and there seems to be lack of an overall plan for the provision of services)..

Look, people can't have it both ways.. If they want job protection for permanant PS employees then the temp ones will be removed. If they want to ensure that none of the middle management and admin staff get offloaded (as suggested by McCarthy and other reports), then the frontline staff will take the hit.

Nody

changes wrote: »

No, closing wards and letting staff go is going head to head with the unions not placating them,

Ask the union leaders this; we can cut your salaries for your staff by 30% or close a ward and see their choice (*hint* it is not the second option).

This is the outcome of mismanaging the boom and pouring money into the banks

The "poured money into banks" arguments gets old; it adds up to a pittence a year compared to the raises handed out over the years (inc. the cost of pension, benefits etc.) to the PS over the last decade.

RichardAnd

RichardAnd wrote: »

Whilst I have sympathy for those who will be out of a job, it is unfortunately necessary to close hospital wards. We have too many small hospitals scattered throughout the country and these simply cost us money we don't have.

nah i think we have too many banks scattered throught the country

Head The Wall

OMD wrote: »

The reality is we need to assess the hospital needs for the country in general. We should be looking at a major hospital closure plan. We currently have about 35 acute general hospitals in Ireland. On top of this we have specialist hospitals eg, psychiatric hospitals, maternity, paediatric etc and community hospitals. Realistically we should be looking at closing half these hospitals. That however will not happen.

Instead budgets are decided on a per hospital basis. So the hospital gets its individual budget slashed so has to close wards.

Don't forget the new one that is to be built in Kenmare

changes

Head The Wall wrote: »

Don't forget the new one that is to be built in Kenmare

Now that was a farce.

The problem with closing hospitals, particurlarly closing the letterkenny hospital is that the nearest A & E would be 2 hours away for many people (sligo). That is not acceptable.

Plenty of scope to close hospitals in the east and dublin area i'd imagine.

RichardAnd

changes wrote: »

Now that was a farce.

The problem with closing hospitals, particurlarly closing the letterkenny hospital is that the nearest A & E would be 2 hours away for many people (sligo). That is not acceptable.

Plenty of scope to close hospitals in the east and dublin area i'd imagine.

Some people will always be far from a hospital. Despite what the residents of Bally-middleOfNoWhere might want, we can't just open up a hospital every 50 miles.

You are correct that people in the cities have an advantage in that hospitals are close. I myself live only a 25 min walk from a large hospital but that's just the reality of living in a city which has plenty of drawbacks too.

In an ideal world, we would just smash the HSE apart and build up a new system that is efficient and cheaper but that's not going to happen. What we must do, and what will happen, is that the books will be balanced no matter what. The money that allowed us to build up such a bloated service is gone so we can cut back or let the IMF do it for us.

changes

RichardAnd wrote: »

Some people will always be far from a hospital. Despite what the residents of Bally-middleOfNoWhere might want, we can't just open up a hospital every 50 miles.

They won't be 2 hours away and that is not acceptable

Get your map of ireland out and you'll see that we have a general hospital within a 50 miles of almost everyone in the country and thats the way it should stay.

RichardAnd

changes wrote: »

They won't be 2 hours away and that is not acceptable

Get your map of ireland out and you'll see that we have a general hospital within a 50 miles of almost everyone in the country and thats the way it should stay.

Perhaps it should stay like that but you see the problem is that it can't because we're broke.

ardmacha

The problem with closing hospitals, particurlarly closing the letterkenny hospital is that the nearest A & E would be 2 hours away for many people (sligo). That is not acceptable.

There is a pretty decent A&E in Derry.

Welease

changes wrote: »

They won't be 2 hours away and that is not acceptable

Get your map of ireland out and you'll see that we have a general hospital within a 50 miles of almost everyone in the country and thats the way it should stay.

The money is there, but it's being spent in the most rediculous places..

- The 100 million wasted on branded drugs.. how many wards would that have paid for?
- The 1000's (as per McCarthy) report of unnecessary Admin staff in the HSE. how many wards could stay open if they were gotten rid off?
- Decentralisation (apparently, haven't looked to confirm, and I'm sure its not that simple) has cost 250K per head so far. The more we spend shuffling people around the less we spend elsewhere..
- FAS training centre's built in the arse end of nowhere with no transport links and 14 students..
- Kickbacks to unions - That would have paid for that ward for the next god knows how many years..

etc etc etc....

Absolutely its not acceptable. But the HSE could solve the problem itself.. but the will just isn't there (and thats not the fault of the banks)...

Edit - I think it was Noonan on Newstalk last week saying we spend 5K per person on health whereas Holland spends 3.5K and it held up as a model system... So the funding is there, and the government are committed it seems, the fund just don't seem to be getting used properly (and the Ombudsman was hardly glowing in her assessment either)..

doc_17

RichardAnd wrote: »

Whilst I have sympathy for those who will be out of a job, it is unfortunately necessary to close hospital wards. We have too many small hospitals scattered throughout the country and these simply cost us money we don't have.

As for people's health well this is sadly a case of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. Most likely though, the next few years will see the end of small hospitals that will be amalgamated into several larger ones. Much cheaper and much more efficient.

Are you saying that letterkenny is a small hospital?

ardmacha wrote: »

There is a pretty decent A&E in Derry.

Yeah there's also a lot of other wonderful things in Derry too but the people of Donegal pay taxes to the Irish Government the same as everywhere else and should not have to rely on a foreign government to provide basic health services.

Head The Wall

doc_17 wrote: »

Are you saying that letterkenny is a small hospital?



Yeah there's also a lot of other wonderful things in Derry too but the people of Donegal pay taxes to the Irish Government the same as everywhere else and should not have to rely on a foreign government to provide basic health services.

A lot of them pay their car tax in the north, does this entitle them to use their services than?

doc_17

Head The Wall wrote: »

A lot of them pay their car tax in the north, does this entitle them to use their services than?

"Them" might use the roads in the north. I don't really know what point you are trying to make. Sorry

yermanoffthetv

Welease wrote: »

Going forward, the CP agreement offerred protection to the swathes of unnecessary admin staff across the HSE.. As they won't be touched, the cuts have to come from somewhere so wards will be closed and temp staff (like the ones you mentioned) removed..

Absolutely. The whole system needs a shake up. Sack the lot of them and rehire on a strict essential needs baisis from the ground up. Theres so many layers of underworked and overpayed middle and top management there that are so embedded in the system and are unwilling to accept change, that the structure of the HSE is incapabable of deivering an efficient(or transparent) service. Of course that kind of radical thinking is still punishable by flogging in the dohc :rolleyes:

Welease

In case anyone is interested..

OECD report on health spending 2010 (data from 2008).. Despite what people think about the government and the initial question in this thread questioning whether they cared.. It appears we have one of the highest per capita spends on health care in this country..

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf



(not sure where the interviewee on Newstalk got thier info.. Holland appears to spend about the same/more, not less).

ZYX

Welease wrote: »

In case anyone is interested..

OECD report on health spending 2010 (data from 2008).. Despite what people think about the government and the initial question in this thread questioning whether they cared.. It appears we have one of the highest per capita spends on health care in this country..

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf



(not sure where the interviewee on Newstalk got thier info.. Holland appears to spend about the same/more, not less).

The figures are a combination of public & private spending. The problem is not the amount we spend however. It is that we spend so much and still havea ****e service. That is totallyt the governments fault and Mary Harney in particular. I have said it before but she is the highest spending minister for health ever and has spent more than all other health ministers combined since the founding of the state.

Head The Wall

doc_17 wrote: »

"Them" might use the roads in the north. I don't really know what point you are trying to make. Sorry

They tax the cars in the north so they don't have to pay VRT, our outrageous Road tax and get more reasonable insurance. It's illegal yes but there's plenty doing it

changes

RichardAnd wrote: »

Perhaps it should stay like that but you see the problem is that it can't because we're broke.

Well i disagree with you there, cuts can be made elsewhere. Certain services must be provided and a decent A & E/General Hospital is one of them imo.

If you are in a serious accident or have a heart attack.... you wouldn't be too impressed if the paramedic loaded you into the ambulance and said.... "don't worry sir we'll have you there in 2 hours".

Head The Wall

changes wrote: »

Well i disagree with you there, cuts can be made elsewhere. Certain services must be provided and a decent A & E/General Hospital is one of them imo.

If you are in a serious accident or have a heart attack.... you wouldn't be too impressed if the paramedic loaded you into the ambulance and said.... "don't worry sir we'll have you there in 2 hours".

And those cuts should be made at the excessive admin and management levels and at permemant staff that don't give a rats about their job. But alas the CP agreement has molly coddled all those people for the next 4 years so they have to look elsewhere for the cuts.

The other side of this is people on temporary contracts shouldn't have been taking out mortgages, banks have refused people I know in the private sector because of this. Surely they would have been as diligent with the PS unless they viewed these staff as on the gravy train that we all know exists in the PS

Welease

ZYX wrote: »

The figures are a combination of public & private spending. The problem is not the amount we spend however. It is that we spend so much and still havea ****e service. That is totallyt the governments fault and Mary Harney in particular. I have said it before but she is the highest spending minister for health ever and has spent more than all other health ministers combined since the founding of the state.

The lower part of the bar is public spending, and agreed we spend a lot and receive a poor service.

But it's utter rubbish imo to suggest the fault lies totally with FF and Harney (however dumb they may be), one person cannot deliver decent healthcare to a nation..

The funding has been provided. The HSE employes thousands of managers and staff who are responsible for delivering that healthcare. They need to start shouldering the bulk of responsibility for the failing system.

Edit - I don't mean the "utter rubbish" bit to sound aggressive

Welease

changes wrote: »

Well i disagree with you there, cuts can be made elsewhere. Certain services must be provided and a decent A & E/General Hospital is one of them imo.

If you are in a serious accident or have a heart attack.... you wouldn't be too impressed if the paramedic loaded you into the ambulance and said.... "don't worry sir we'll have you there in 2 hours".

How can they be?

No one can be laid off.. Staff will only move within 45 miles... yadda yadda yadda..

They got the CP agreement....this is the result..

ardmacha

Yeah there's also a lot of other wonderful things in Derry too but the people of Donegal pay taxes to the Irish Government the same as everywhere else and should not have to rely on a foreign government to provide basic health services.

it is no coincidence that many of the hospitals with problems mentioned in the Republic are in Donegal, Monaghan/Cavan and Dundalk, while the North has hospital campaigns in Tyrone. There should be a hospital provision on this island which serves the population without reference to administrative boundaries. In the past there may have been significant political obstacles to this, now there are no political obstacles there is only administrative inertia and incompetence which is wasting a lot of money when resources are scarce.

doc_17

Head The Wall wrote: »

They tax the cars in the north so they don't have to pay VRT, our outrageous Road tax and get more reasonable insurance. It's illegal yes but there's plenty doing it

Yeah I know it's cheaper there but I was questioning what your point had to do with health care. Why should the people of Donegal be treated as 2nd class citizens.

If you knew the state of the roads up here you'd be reluctant to pay the gov road tax either. \but that's off topic

Trampas

Does anyone know what % of HSE workers are admin and doctors/nurses etc

Money should be spent on nurses/doctors etc and less admin cause end of the day it is not the admin people will make you better.

Good IT system should help as well

changes

Welease wrote: »

How can they be.

They should cut the social welfare bill before closing wards imo.

Head The Wall

Trampas wrote: »

Does anyone know what % of HSE workers are admin and doctors/nurses etc

Money should be spent on nurses/doctors etc and less admin cause end of the day it is not the admin people will make you better.

Good IT system should help as well

Bear in mind these are HSE figures, these are the people that can't keep to a budget so their acumen with numbers wouldn't be the best.

HSE Employment

Welease

changes wrote: »

They should cut the social welfare bill before closing wards imo.

Of course, why didnt they think of that.. It's so simple...

Cut Social Welfare!!!!!!!.. so we can keep thousands of unnecessary middle management in jobs, keep building monuments to FAS and Cowan's stupidity in Offaly, and hand millions across on designer drugs...

Pure genius !

On the other hand, if you want to be taken seriously you might concede as pretty much everyone else in this country does.. the HSE are adequately funded.. they choose to waste a considerable % of it..

This is the real life implementation of the CP agreement.. Deal with it!

changes

Welease wrote: »

Of course, why didnt they think of that.. It's so simple...

Cut Social Welfare!!!!!!!.. so we can keep thousands of unnecessary middle management in jobs, keep building monuments to FAS and Cowan's stupidity in Offaly, and hand millions across on designer drugs...

Pure genius !

On the other hand, if you want to be taken seriously you might concede as pretty much everyone else in this country does.. the HSE are adequately funded.. they choose to waste a considerable % of it..

This is the real life implementation of the CP agreement.. Deal with it!

Not allowed mention banks... not allowed mention cutting the 22 billion monster that is the social welfare bill. Sack a few managers and a few admin staff is the only thing that will get the thumbs up here.

No admin staff/managers are being replaced and that will continue. We are coming into the 3rd year of the embargo.... numbers are reducing.
Essential staff can still be hired, e.g social workers, doctors etc. The embargo is designed to reduce numbers where it is believed they are too high.

Welease

changes wrote: »

Not allowed mention banks... not allowed mention cutting the 22 billion monster that is the social welfare bill. Sack a few managers and a few admin staff is the only thing that will get the thumbs up here.

No admin staff/managers are being replaced and that will continue. We are coming into the 3rd year of the embargo.... numbers are reducing.
Essential staff can still be hired, e.g social workers, doctors etc. The embargo is designed to reduce numbers where it is believed they are too high.

No, thats not what people are saying..

The bank problem is well known and understood, and has to be dealt with.. As does the social welfare bill.. Thats doesn't absolve the HSE from managing their resources properly.

The embargo doesn't do squat.. How many middle management will leave?

None of that changes the fact that the HSE receives some of the highest funding per capita in developed countries. The government and unions decided to agree to the CP deal which protects the unnecessary swathes of staff (McCarthy iirc suggested getting rid of 5-6,000 from the HSE, so its hardly a handful)..

Why should we cut other areas to protect the highest spending area's in the HSE when large amounts of it are pure waste? At this stage we are not even cutting what we have.. we are borrowing to protect the waste..

The PS and Unions got their agreement, people in rural areas etc. will now pay the price..

Head The Wall

changes wrote: »

Not allowed mention banks... not allowed mention cutting the 22 billion monster that is the social welfare bill. Sack a few managers and a few admin staff is the only thing that will get the thumbs up here.

No admin staff/managers are being replaced and that will continue. We are coming into the 3rd year of the embargo.... numbers are reducing.
Essential staff can still be hired, e.g social workers, doctors etc. The embargo is designed to reduce numbers where it is believed they are too high.

I refer you to page 12 of this CSO document, PS staff levels are the same Q4 2009 as they were Q3 2008 while Private sector numbers have fallen by 175,000. So tell me again numbers are reducing cos I don't see it happening.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/earnlabcosts.pdf

changes

Head The Wall wrote: »

I refer you to page 12 of this CSO document, PS staff levels are the same Q4 2009 as they were Q3 2008 while Private sector numbers have fallen by 175,000. So tell me again numbers are reducing cos I don't see it happening.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/earnlabcosts.pdf

Admin/Management staff levels are definitely reducing. There isn't a hope in hell of getting approval to hire new admin staff in the PS these days.

Welease

changes wrote: »

Admin/Management staff levels are definitely reducing. There isn't a hope in hell of getting approval to hire new admin staff in the PS these days.

.. and when they finally reach the level's needed then we might be able to stop cutting services.

In the meantime, it's a fairly simple proposition..

Either cut the cost of providing services, or cut the services.. We seem to have been left with option 2 in some cases (like the one you mentioned.)

(I'm still amazed people who supported the implementation of the CP deal now want to complain about cuts to services).

Head The Wall

changes wrote: »

Admin/Management staff levels are definitely reducing. There isn't a hope in hell of getting approval to hire new admin staff in the PS these days.

Did you look at the figures at all,


Public administration and defence Q3 2008 - 120,500 Q4 2009 - 119,400

Riskymove

Head The Wall wrote: »

I refer you to page 12 of this CSO document, PS staff levels are the same Q4 2009 as they were Q3 2008 while Private sector numbers have fallen by 175,000. So tell me again numbers are reducing cos I don't see it happening.

ah come on now...bit simplistic?

firstly, the figures are down 12,000 from the highest point and secondly those figures are 6 months old...the main impact from the moratorium and the ISER will not have been included

secondly private sector numbers are heavily skewed towards the construction sector and related industries...the numbers are not equally distributed