CID v Permanent

rainbowtrout

drusk wrote: »

If after four years RPT in a school, you are offered a 16 hours CID, would it be better to hold out for another year before signing?

Presuming you are fairly certain that your hours won't decline, but may go up...

If I were offered a CID for 17hrs 20mins, I think I'd cry...

It seems so unfair that a 16hr CID teacher should have no opportunity to get more hours on a permanent basis.

Anywho, what's the story with waiting a year? Can you? Is it advisable if you're really close to the 18 hr mark?

Taking a 16 hour CID doesn't mean you can't get any more hours in the future. What it does mean is 16 is the minimum you can be given. If you get more hours on a consistent basis you can apply to have your CID upgraded so to speak or for a second CID, for say 3 hours if that's what you got.

spurious wrote: »

That's messing about - has it been brought to the attention of the union?

yes, very long story there, not for public forum though.

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

In our school you can wait a year to see can your hours go up, it's an unwritten rule that those heading into CIDs get as many hours as possible, almost all get 22, all get 18 or over. Mean newer teachers often take a cut but what harm when it will be them getting the hours in a few years.

That's the way a lot of schools operate. But not all

gaeilgegrinds1

I think it is only fair they operate that way, so important to get a decent CID.

implausible

roxychix wrote: »

just wondering if you can take a career break on CID.

That's a very interesting question. You should be able to, yes, as the terms and conditions of a CID are equivalent to permanent. It should be in the wording of the contract. If, however, a CID holder was refused on the basis of only having a CID, it would be a good legal test of the word 'effectively'.

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

I think it is only fair they operate that way, so important to get a decent CID.

It's a pity that this fairness doesn't apply across the board.

Feeded

roxychix wrote: »

just wondering if you can take a career break on CID.

you can.....so long as the boss says it's ok

Godge

roxychix wrote: »

just wondering if you can take a career break on CID.

Yes, you can even take one if you are only temporary!

drusk

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Taking a 16 hour CID doesn't mean you can't get any more hours in the future. What it does mean is 16 is the minimum you can be given. If you get more hours on a consistent basis you can apply to have your CID upgraded so to speak or for a second CID, for say 3 hours if that's what you got.

Okay. But what if this happened - You enter your fourth year of teaching in a school and you're given a 16 hour CID. That's great and you sign it, happy out. The following year, you're given 3 hours on top of your guaranteed 16 hours, so you're effectively on 19 hours. Can you ask for your CID to be bumped up to 19 hours straight away? Or do you have to wait another three years?

If I were offered a CID of 16 hours after three years, I'd feel short-changed if this meant waiting another three years to be guaranteed full-time hours. Is it the case that once you accept/sign a CID for a certain amount of hours that it becomes difficult to get full-time hours in future?

rainbowtrout

drusk wrote: »

Okay. But what if this happened - You enter your fourth year of teaching in a school and you're given a 16 hour CID. That's great and you sign it, happy out. The following year, you're given 3 hours on top of your guaranteed 16 hours, so you're effectively on 19 hours. Can you ask for your CID to be bumped up to 19 hours straight away? Or do you have to wait another three years?

If I were offered a CID of 16 hours after three years, I'd feel short-changed if this meant waiting another three years to be guaranteed full-time hours. Is it the case that once you accept/sign a CID for a certain amount of hours that it becomes difficult to get full-time hours in future?

I assume you mean fifth year and had 16 hours in your fourth year as that is what the situation would be. You can't get a CID after three years at the moment. You couldn't feel short changed getting a CID for 16 hours if that is all you taught. Your CID going into your fifth year is for whatever hours you had in your fourth year so if you had 19 hours in your fourth year they suddenly can't give you a 16 hour CID. It will be 19. I'm no expert and the situation hasn't arisen in my school yet, but I imagine that you could ask for an improved CID, but they are probably not obliged to give you one as you have not been teaching those extra hours for four years. You may have to wait it out.

Optimist

As of yesterday I'm in the nightmare position that Miss Lockhart has mentioned in her posts...offered a CID for 15 hours but there will be at least 5 RPTs with my subjects on 11+ hours. I started off on 18 but each year my hours were cut and more RPTs employed. Many of these other RPTs have "connections" but that's beside the point really as I can't do anything about that. I was wondering if there is anyone who has been in a similar situation and has done anything about it? Any advice apprecriated

rainbowtrout

Optimist wrote: »

As of yesterday I'm in the nightmare position that Miss Lockhart has mentioned in her posts...offered a CID for 15 hours but there will be at least 5 RPTs with my subjects on 11+ hours. I started off on 18 but each year my hours were cut and more RPTs employed. Many of these other RPTs have "connections" but that's beside the point really as I can't do anything about that. I was wondering if there is anyone who has been in a similar situation and has done anything about it? Any advice apprecriated

First port of call: get on to your union.

What hours were you on last year - was it 15 or did you have more?
Was there ever a reason given for the cut in hours? Why were your hours cut? Were any classes taken off your timetable that were mid-cycle. i.e. did you have for example a second/third year class in your subject and found the following year they had been given to one of the other RPTs? Is there anyone teaching your subject who is unqualified in the subject? Did you go on maternity leave at any time in the last four years and return to a timetable for less hours with no valid reason?

To be honest without knowing more details, it's hard to say and I'm not sure would you get back to 18 hours as it's been cut in three consecutive years, but there's no harm investigating it.

TheDriver

agree with rainbowtrout, union is only way to go but to be honest, unless theres some massive irregularity (other than apparent unfairness) then afraid youwon't have much to go on. Union is only way to go for advice.

Optimist

Really appreciate your replies. Got on to union and they said Circular 0034/09 states that hours in my subject area should be given to me if my CID is under 18hrs. What are your opinions of this? Do I interpret it as I have first call on hours in my subject area when I have a CID?

I had 15 hours last year. Given no reason for cuts, just saw other RPTs arriving and wasn't in a position to question it. Haven't taken any kind of leave. There were teachers employed to teach in my subject area without the necessary qualification.

TheDriver

define necessary qualification? i.e. maybe they have a 2nd or 3rd subject that you are unaware of?
Think the crux is that last year, you had less hours and had no entitlement to anything in reality, management can offer you 22 hours in year 1, 1 hour in year 2 etc. Its only now that a CID comes into play that you can argue. However, its based on th 4 years, not the 3 years so I think you may not be able to argue too much on this one, they are giving you a CID based on last year as per the circular. Its also an unfortunate situation so many have your subjects but you should be offered them first up to 15 hours but thats all you are entitled to. Remember when these RPTs become CID, then the entitlement becomes equal.

rainbowtrout

Optimist wrote: »

Really appreciate your replies. Got on to union and they said Circular 0034/09 states that hours in my subject area should be given to me if my CID is under 18hrs. What are your opinions of this? Do I interpret it as I have first call on hours in my subject area when I have a CID?

I had 15 hours last year. Given no reason for cuts, just saw other RPTs arriving and wasn't in a position to question it. Haven't taken any kind of leave. There were teachers employed to teach in my subject area without the necessary qualification.

I don't understand what that means. Does that mean you on acceptance of a 15 hour CID that you get all the hours in your subject up to 15 hours and then any surplus is a free for all, or does it mean that once you are timetabled for 15 hours in your subject that if there is a surplus in hours in your subject that you should get them first? I am reading that as the first option because once you sign for 15 hours they are obliged to give you 15 hours but not one minute more. As TheDriver says once the other teachers get CIDs all the hours surplus to filling what is CID is fair game for anyone. I imagine a CID teacher not on full hours should have first call on surplus hours in the subject over an RPT teacher, but I've never dealt with that situation.

teachers without the necessary qualification - what does that mean exactly? If you are an Irish teacher for example, are there teachers teaching Irish that don't have Irish degree or are they teachers without a Dip? Also it may be a case that they can't timetable you for the subject. Eg. if it's a subject like Irish and classes are blocked in a year group to be on at the same time, you can only take one class regardless of how many classes in the subject there are. So another teacher could be put into one of the other classes.

The other way that the school could be putting it is that the unqualified teacher in your subject could be necessary to fulfill curricular need. Eg a home ec teacher and to make the position viable they have given them a few extra hours.

I think you need to get back onto the union. List the hours and subjects you had for four years. List off teachers that have come in after you and their hours and subjects if you know them. You need to see if there were classes you could have been teaching (that you weren't blocked against) and if someone unqualified was in that class when you were available to teach it. It might require a bit of digging with timetables I'm afraid. You have until November 1st to sort out your contract. I think that's the date the Dept finalise them on.

Optimist

Thanks again for your opinions. Some of the RPTs do not have a degree in my subject but have the Dip. They were employed to teach e.g. 2 hours of their own subject and 9 in my area.
I'm confused about the circular. I'll need to seek clarification on this.
Also I was informed that what happened in previous years RE: allocation of hours is irrelevant to my current situation.

rainbowtrout

Optimist wrote: »

Thanks again for your opinions. Some of the RPTs do not have a degree in my subject but have the Dip. They were employed to teach e.g. 2 hours of their own subject and 9 in my area.
I'm confused about the circular. I'll need to seek clarification on this.
Also I was informed that what happened in previous years RE: allocation of hours is irrelevant to my current situation.

This doesn't sound right. They are not qualified in your subject. Definitely get clarification from the union on your position.

Optimist

Hope to try and see what I can do next week!
Will definitely post the outcome!

ed06

i too was in the same situation this year i was told last years allocation eas irrelevant. contacted the union they were willin to meet with princiapl, the principal refused to do so. i had to re interview for my job, got less hours and the rpt's who also interviewd(new to the school) got more hours than me and will be teaching my classes! would love to hear how u get on.....

mayp

Hi, just looking for a second opinion here. I am starting my third contract with a vec. I had 18 hours + for first two and now hvae been reduced to 16 for third. Does this mean my chances of an 18 hour CID are gone??

Isotonic

no your chances are not gone. It all depends on how many hours you get in your 4th year. Thats how your CID hours will be decided.

mayp

Thanks. That is what I thought but I have been told that if you have 18 hours + for first three years and hours are dropped on fourth year you are still entitled to 18 hour CID. Many differing opinions seem to be about on this!!

Isotonic

got a cid last year and it was judged on the hours of my 4th year. Girl in my school was doing 22 up to this year, cut to 15, and now has a cid just for the 15. Presume it ll be similar situation

implausible

mayp wrote: »

I am starting my third contract with a vec. I had 18 hours + for first two and now hvae been reduced to 16 for third. Does this mean my chances of an 18 hour CID are gone??

mayp wrote: »

....I have been told that if you have 18 hours + for first three years and hours are dropped on fourth year you are still entitled to 18 hour CID.

No to both. Your CID depends on your hours in the fourth year.

rainbowtrout

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

In our school you can wait a year to see can your hours go up, it's an unwritten rule that those heading into CIDs get as many hours as possible, almost all get 22, all get 18 or over. Mean newer teachers often take a cut but what harm when it will be them getting the hours in a few years.

Some contract related stuff has been niggling at me (not mine) and I knew I had seen something odd somewhere and this was it.

Are you saying gaeilgegrinds that when you start your fifth year in your school that if you weren't on full hours / above 18 in your fourth year that the teachers don't apply for their CID at the start of their fifth year but rather hold out to see what the fifth year brings and then if their hours have gone up, apply at the start of their sixth year and make a case for a contract based on the improved hours they had in their fifth year?

Debion

Hi I have a completely unrelated question that I am hoping you can answer. Some permanent jobs have come up in the VEC I work for and they were not advertised at all, rather a selection of staff were called to interview for them. I assumed that all permanent jobs had to be advertised? When I spoke to the union I was told that if the staff members interviewing for the permanent jobs were four years or more in the vec then the jobs did not have to be advertised as they were automatically entitled to them. I asked did the union not mean that they were not automatically entitled to a CID and my rep told me yes but CID and permanent are the same so they dont have to be advertised. Am now totally clueless, do permanent jobs in teaching have to be advertised?

gaeilgegrinds1

Sorry Rainbow Trout, I hadn't seen your post. Yes, if not satisfied with your hours going into year 5, some people wait. Our place is far from fair though!

rainbowtrout

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

Sorry Rainbow Trout, I hadn't seen your post. Yes, if not satisfied with your hours going into year 5, some people wait. Our place is far from fair though!

Very interesting. I'll bear it in mind.

Rosita

Debion wrote: »

Some permanent jobs have come up in the VEC I work for

I thought there was a freeze on permanent teaching jobs?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1126/teachers.html

gaeilgebeo

Rosita wrote: »

I thought there was a freeze on permanent teaching jobs?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1126/teachers.html

As did I, but there must be a "loophole" somewhere.
I have a relative in a neighbouring VEC who was made permanent this school year.
There is very little transparency it seems.

Miss Lockhart

We have had 2 teachers who already had CID for 22 hours interviewed for, and given, permanent positions this year.

This is difficult to understand in the context of CID being supposedly the same as permanency.

gaeilgebeo

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

We have had 2 teachers who already had CID for 22 hours interviewed for, and given, permanent positions this year.

This is difficult to understand in the context of CID being supposedly the same as permanency.

Out of interest, are you a VEC school?