Article: Government to outline €39.4bn capital plan

Sponge Bob

veryangryman wrote: »

Ok to look at this logically, anything that he hasnt mentioned as safe (Newlands a good example) will likley be announced as cut in ~6 months.

Newlands is safe, it is part of an MIU and the EIB has agreed to part fund it.

The PPP projects that are not safe are those where EIB funding has neither been asked nor secured. M20 south and Enniscorthy/New Ross would come to mind.

Therefore you are broadly correct VAM!!

The Word Is Bor

It would be very unlike this 'government' to make announcements about jobs that they have previously created, isn't it?

Anyhoo, it's all smoke and mirrors. This NDP/T21 Redux Part Deux will not create any new jobs. It might retain some jobs but it will not create any jobs.

D'Peoples Voice

dannym08 wrote: »

just thought I'd post a few more articles about it, in case ye missed any of em

Fin Facts - Irish Indo

Although the Cabinet will not make any Budget-related decisions until later in the year, one cutback which is expected is a reduction in the number of diplomatic staff in smaller embassies abroad.

Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin plans to have more 'model embassies', with just an ambassador or diplomat -- instead of having two or three other diplomats as support staff.

not more model embassies!
http://www.maccom-ireland.ie/millions-spent-on-embassy-site-offices/

Neworder79

Dempsey on News at 1 now claiming the Navan phase 2 is going ahead, for today anyway.

Communications isn't this Governments forte. Omnishambles.

D.L.R.

This govt is a tragicomedy.

Pete_Cavan

Neworder79 wrote: »

Dempsey on News at 1 now claiming the Navan phase 2 is going ahead, for today anyway.

Communications isn't this Governments forte. Omnishambles.

Thats just Dempsey protecting his seat because this project is in his constituency. He says the project will go ahead once the railway order is granted. It is unlikely he will be Minister for Transport when it is granted (mainly because it is very unlikely FF will be in government) and a Minister for Transport from anywhere other than Meath (be they FF or not) will axe this project straight away, not that they will have to because as it currently stands the project is already axed.

DWCommuter

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Thats just Dempsey protecting his seat because this project is in his constituency. He says the project will go ahead once the railway order is granted. It is unlikely he will be Minister for Transport when it is granted (mainly because it is very unlikely FF will be in government) and a Minister for Transport from anywhere other than Meath (be they FF or not) will axe this project straight away, not that they will have to because as it currently stands the project is already axed.

Listen to the spin here;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0727/budget_2011_av.html?2794160,null,209

westtip

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Thats just Dempsey protecting his seat because this project is in his constituency. He says the project will go ahead once the railway order is granted. It is unlikely he will be Minister for Transport when it is granted (mainly because it is very unlikely FF will be in government) and a Minister for Transport from anywhere other than Meath (be they FF or not) will axe this project straight away, not that they will have to because as it currently stands the project is already axed.

Its axed in two because the bridges were not built over the old alignment when the M3 was built - perhaps they are thinking of putting railway crossings on the motorway???? dempsey and his predecessor should be in the dock for the M3 cutting through this alignment.

veryangryman

DWCommuter wrote: »

Listen to the spin here;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0727/budget_2011_av.html?2794160,null,209

I do love the way the presenter ends with

"Apologies for the quality of that broadcast"

Nuff said. Dempsey your a dope and your constituents are the worse for giving you that throne

spacetweek

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Thats just Dempsey protecting his seat because this project is in his constituency. He says the project will go ahead once the railway order is granted. It is unlikely he will be Minister for Transport when it is granted (mainly because it is very unlikely FF will be in government) and a Minister for Transport from anywhere other than Meath (be they FF or not) will axe this project straight away, not that they will have to because as it currently stands the project is already axed.

Exactly - it's easy to say the project is going ahead - all you have to do is faff about with the railway order for years and years. Electorate satisfied, transport users not.

However I don't totally agree about a MfT not from Meath axing the line - it's not just a Meath issue, the line is a critical piece of *Dublin* infrastructure.

westtip wrote: »

Its axed in two because the bridges were not built over the old alignment when the M3 was built - perhaps they are thinking of putting railway crossings on the motorway???? dempsey and his predecessor should be in the dock for the M3 cutting through this alignment.

I remember us talking about that but I thought it turned out there were underbridges for the railway at Cannistown. So are there or aren't there?

murphaph

veryangryman wrote: »

Nuff said. Dempsey your a dope and your constituents are the worse for giving you that throne

This is the problem with Ireland...it's not the politicians, it's the electorate. Politicians will get away with as much as they can, if it is permitted by their constituents. Dempsey will be re-elected, despite being an idiot without a clue about his portfolio.

Wild Bill

....Of course it has,its has gotten way more and for a region of way less regional and national importance.
The 2 areas might have the same population on paper but Galway is a city on a much smaller area.

Eh...so? Why is Galway "more important" than East Wicklow? Not to me it ain't!

Classing the region as a "(de facto a suburb of Dublin)" is being ambitious to say the least it more a series of commuter towns into Dublin (where else!).

Bray is a suburb, not a commuter town, ditto Greystones/Delgany; not even a new one. I said "de facto" as distinct from "de fiction".

Galway has got the motorway running into it from Dublin but badly needs a orbital route to get cars into the west.

I support that - blame yer Greens for the fact it isn't already built - not the Dubs. As for Claregalway and other tiny commuter villages - bring out the violins!

I was originally going to reproach those posters using the sneering "Wesht" approach (I was especially offended by some dolt who managed to get "the famine is over" into the thread) - but reading this kind of anti-Dublin nonsense almost makes me wanna join them. :cool:

DWCommuter

spacetweek wrote: »

I remember us talking about that but I thought it turned out there were underbridges for the railway at Cannistown. So are there or aren't there?

The alignment is blocked at many other places by the M3. Cannistown was literally just one spot that got noticed by locals and sunsequently became the focus of attention during the ABP hearing.

The line is blocked without any provision as follows;

1. Black bull - The realigned Trim road is built on an embankment across the rail alignment with no provision.

2. Drumree - A link road is built across the alignment on an embankment with no provision.

3. Just south of Navan town a link road in a deep cutting severs the alignment without any provision.

4. Before the M3 was even finished the design stage, sewer mains were installed along the alignment. MCC have admitted that this sewer main would need to be moved.

All of this happened while Fianna Fail were promising to reopen the rail route since 1999.

Furthermore MCC refused the Station House Hotel (on the alignment at Kilmessan) permission to redevelop on the basis on the line reopening. MCC were subsequently sued and lost the case, hence the much mentioned diversion at Kilmessan. And lets not forget the housing estate that was built on the alignment in Kilmessan as well.

The final analysis clearly shows that MCC never had any real intention of reopening the line and that Fianna Fail promised it without any detailed knowledge of the route and eventually pile drived a motorway across it after it became Government policy. Is it a scandal? Yes it is, but unfortunately the media don't care and I live on this particular island alone.:D

In the future it will be an enormous scandal considering the amount of houses sold in Navan on the basis of a rail connection before the M3 was even conceived.

Sponge Bob

Didnt Tom Finn from CIE say it would cost €560m plus to open this line...minus the €160m spent already of course. €400m left to spend then !!!

Only a cynic would say that Dempseys mates are holding out for the CPOs to make a few squiddlies on worthless property plays though

johnnyc

ah some national development plan, it should be renamed the dublin development plan?.. For god sake i live in kerry and the road, basic infastructure are rubbish. The goverment should be developing other cities in ireland cork,limerick etc to counter the massive population on the east coast.

murphaph

johnnyc wrote: »

ah some national development plan, it should be renamed the dublin development plan?.. For god sake i live in kerry and the road, basic infastructure are rubbish. The goverment should be developing other cities in ireland cork,limerick etc to counter the massive population on the east coast.

Then you'd likely just complain that Cork and Limerick get all the investement and Kerry gets nothing...

It's time Dublin had the infrastructure IT needs instead of just pumping money out to the regions.

Wild Bill

And Sponge, this place has no cynics....though I'd simply not believe Dempsey would do that...he's from the Good Wing of FF, Irish Times-friendly and prone to politically correct outbursts.

Amazing the story of the blocked railway line never made it into the media as a major issue when the anti-M3 folk were mentioning just about every objection that anyone could imagine. And the meeja reported the "save Tara" cribbage relentlessly - so I can't see a conspiracy here.

Why not simply link the existing Navan branch line into the suburban rail system?

A cynic might even think that CIE deliberately blocks cheap solutions in order to build the case for new railways. (They still won't use the Phoenix Park tunnel in case the begrudgers used it as an excuse to oppose the DART underground).

Of course, given the level of begrudgery in this country I can't really blame them.

Wild Bill

I supported Knock Airport when it was neither fashionable nor profitable. In 1980s Bray anyone who veered from the "foggy boggy mountain" consensus was not welcome in polite society.

I signed Frank Fahey's online petition for the Galway Orb (and he wrote me nice emails till he twigged I could not vote for him).

I have never opposed by word or deed any regional or rural infrastructure scheme. (I even flew to London quietly to avoid the Shannon stopover rather than complain about it).

And the thanks for such empathy with my rustic roots?

None.

Zebra3

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0728/1224275615184.html

So we are getting Navan + the WRC completed after all. :rolleyes:

Wild Bill

Zebra3 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0728/1224275615184.html

So we are getting Navan + the WRC completed after all. :rolleyes:

So they will have to dig up all those obstructing roads and pipes? This has the makings of a row that will run and run .

BluntGuy

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0728/1224275616458.html?via=rel

Not a massive fan of Frank McDonald but he makes some good points about the fallacies of the document.

His point about the "justification" given for shelving Luas extensions is spot-on.

OPINION: The Government is putting too many of its transport investment eggs in the wrong basket, writes FRANK McDONALD

SKEWED NOTIONS permeate the transport section of the Government’s revised public capital investment priorities, published this week. But it is clear that Fianna Fáil and the Green Party is putting nearly all of its public transport eggs into a basket containing two major rail projects – Metro North and Dart Underground.

“Having successfully focused on the delivery of major roads infrastructure over the past decade or so,” says the document from the Department of Finance (by building motorways to beat the band), “the focus of investment in transport infrastructure will increasingly shift towards public transport” between now and 2016.

In their renewed Programme for government last October, Fianna Fáil and the Greens pledged that sustainability and climate change would be “at the heart of our plan for national recovery”, as expressed in their revised public capital investment priorities – published on Monday by the Department of Finance.

But the 115-page document mentions climate change only in the context of forestry’s usefulness to Ireland as a carbon sink for offsetting our emissions. Its evaluation criteria merely includes a question about whether any proposed investment would “contribute to the development of the Green and/or smart economy”.

This rather nebulous goal would apparently be advanced by the two big-ticket public transport projects: Dart Underground, a twin-bore tunnel linking Heuston Station with the docklands, with intervening stations at the Civic Offices, St Stephen’s Green and Pearse Station; and Metro North, linking Swords with St Stephen’s Green. As planned by the Railway Procurement Agency, Metro North was to be the first phase of a metro system for Dublin. But the only other line proposed, Metro West (an orbital route linking Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown and Ballymun), has now been put on the back-burner. So all we’re left with is a single 18km line.

This would run from little-known and virtually unpopulated Bellinstown, north of Swords, underground through Dublin airport and then via Ballymun, Dublin City University, the Mater hospital, Parnell Square and O’Connell Bridge, terminating at St Stephen’s Green. Most of it would be in a twin-bore tunnel, with the rest running overground. Given that these two projects would obviously consume the lion’s share of €5.7 billion allocated for public transport investment over the next six years, it is quite extraordinary that no rationale for going ahead with them – as opposed to street-level Luas lines, for example – is given by the Department of Finance.

All it says is that “the Renewed Programme for Government commits to the advancement of Metro North and Dart Underground projects and, accordingly, the reprioritised envelope set out for the Department of Transport also includes the upfront exchequer funding for these projects”. In other words, they’re “done deals” – and that’s it.

There is no mention in the document of the strategic importance of Dart Underground in terms of integrating the disparate collection of suburban rail services and turning them into a network. Neither is there any reference to the still-unpublished cost/benefit analysis of Metro North or to the number of passengers it is likely to carry. By contrast, the Department of Finance enthuses about the billions of euro spent on motorways over the past 10 years, saying “there is strong evidence of a high economic return on this investment”. Not only that. It also says that “the provision of roads needs to be understood as a public utility that requires ongoing State investment”.

With a further €6 billion to be spent on motorways and other roads, the “significant” benefits would include reduced journey times on all major inter-urban routes, such as just two hours from Dublin to Belfast (M1), Dublin to Galway (N4/N6) and Dublin to Limerick (N7), two hours 30 minutes from Dublin to Cork, and 50 minutes from Cork to Limerick.

In every case, these journey times are faster than train services, even though there has been considerable investment in upgrading track and rolling stock on all the main lines. For example, it takes two hours 10 minutes from Dublin to Belfast, two hours 50 minutes from Dublin to Cork, and two hours 40 minutes from Dublin to Galway.

It is no wonder, as the document notes, that rail passenger numbers fell in 2008 and again in 2009. Given that the substantial investment in mainline rail has not been matched by more patronage, it says investment should now focus on maintaining infrastructure, removing speed restrictions and carrying out essential safety-related work.

Passenger numbers are also in decline on Luas, falling by one million in 2008 and by nearly two million in 2009. This has given the excuse for saying: “It is therefore reasonable to conclude that no new expansion of capacity on the existing Luas lines should take place in the medium-term as existing capacity will be sufficient to cater for demand.”

That kills off until at least 2016 further consideration of advanced plans to connect the Tallaght and Sandyford lines in the city centre, a new line from Lucan into town and an extension of the Sandyford line beyond Cherrywood to Bray; along with Metro West, these will only be built “when economic circumstances allow and demand necessitates”.

The document is equally gloomy about buses. With passenger numbers down by 4 per cent in 2008 and 10 per cent in 2009, it says: “The contribution of the private sector to providing bus-based transport should be fully explored before any consideration is given to further investment in increasing capacity on the publicly-owned bus fleet.”

Curiously, there is no reference whatever to falling traffic levels on the motorways. The NRA is so embarrassed by the relatively few drivers using the new M3 (cost: €900 million) that it hasn’t published a count. On the N20 (Cork-Limerick) and N21 (Limerick-Kerry) roads, figures show that traffic has dropped by 8 to 10 per cent since 2008.

The decline in public transport (and road) use is a direct result of the recession, of course. As the document says: “A significant fall in house completions and a reduction in numbers of people commuting owing to increasing unemployment will serve to dampen demand for public transport infrastructure in the short to medium term.”

Yet the Government is preparing to take a complete stab in the dark with Metro North, which would be the most expensive public transport project in the history of the State (its estimated price-tag in 2005 was €4.58 billion) – subject to making a final decision after it clears the hurdle of An Bord Pleanála and, presumably, vetting the tenders.

Whatever economic rationale underpins Metro North, this was a project conceived during the boom and based on population (and, therefore, patronage) projections for its corridor that are now wildly unrealistic. Indeed, with so many people now emigrating, it would be prudent to wait for the census next April before making a final decision.

DWCommuter

Wild Bill wrote: »

And Sponge, this place has no cynics....though I'd simply not believe Dempsey would do that...he's from the Good Wing of FF, Irish Times-friendly and prone to politically correct outbursts.

Amazing the story of the blocked railway line never made it into the media as a major issue when the anti-M3 folk were mentioning just about every objection that anyone could imagine. And the meeja reported the "save Tara" cribbage relentlessly - so I can't see a conspiracy here.

Why not simply link the existing Navan branch line into the suburban rail system?

A cynic might even think that CIE deliberately blocks cheap solutions in order to build the case for new railways. (They still won't use the Phoenix Park tunnel in case the begrudgers used it as an excuse to oppose the DART underground).

Of course, given the level of begrudgery in this country I can't really blame them.

In fairness to the Save Tara gang, the damage was already done before they were made aware of the problem. The matter wasn't helped by local politicians and even pro rail campaigners who played down the issue of obstructions. At one public meeting that I addressed I was immediately silenced when I mentioned the sewer main at Dunsany. Denials followed. Eventually MCC admitted it would have to be moved if the line was to be reopened. We all knew it would. Its called ultility diversion. But why MCC put it there in the first place when they were actively supporting the reopening of the line is open to debate.

The rest of the obstructions just sum up the lack of real committment to the Navan railway. Dempsey is either full of **** or just thick.

Son of Stupido

The above article needs to be read in the context of a few points

IN MY OPINION.....

• He has ALWAYS been firmly against the metro, or any form of metro. Since the early 1990's he has championed trams, and the way of life associated with them (he used to use Grenoble as an example).
• He supported the trams running down Grafton street
• He lives in the centre of dublin and, I would suggest, does not fully appriciate what it is like to move around in this city. The comment about Belinstown is a case in point. There was a reason why the line was extended there (1-the need for a depot, 2-huge development planned along with swords and 3-a future extension to Donabate to tie in with dart & northern line)
• Consistantly claims the budget for metro north will come from central government (i.e. annual budgets), when most will come from ticket sales & concessions. This is misinformation. Dart underground will be centrally funded tho.
• He was always calling for future planning in transport, yet seems to argue against this now. Strange?

However he is also a breath of fresh air compared to other journalists, but I can't help feeling he has an agenda that is outdated and a bit of an old record.

Zebra3

The article also makes it seem like MN will be isolated from the rest of the public transport system.

fresca

murphaph wrote: »

Then you'd likely just complain that Cork and Limerick get all the investement and Kerry gets nothing...

It's time Dublin had the infrastructure IT needs instead of just pumping money out to the regions.

I don't doubt that Dublin needs the infrastructure.
I congratulate dublin on being lucky enough to have obtained funding for it's projects.

However, I also live in Kerry.
The simple fact of life for me is that this government is running down Kerry General Hospital (KGH) in Tralee. To attend Cork University Hospital (CUH) in Cork city is a journey of about 110km and can take between 2 and 3 hrs by road.

Now somebody who does not know the topography may look at the map and say "tralee is not so far from cork - one hospital would do".
But quite simply, with the existing N22, people will die before they get to CUH.
Now, I'm not trying to be emotive, but please understand, for us in kerry, both the N21 and N22 roads are lifelines for us.

westtip

I don't know about you folks I just think the whole thing in the last 48 hours has been the usual shoot yourselves in the foot politics from this shower of idiots. Dempsey should be sacked for his utterances yesterday - he completely undermined what Biffo had to say the day before; don't get me wrong they are both a pair of prize bankers, but a government makes a major announcement and then next day one of its key ministers involved in infrastructure spending starts making contradictory statements and saying specific projects will be completed - Boy it really is a big cock up of the highest proportions!!! Headless chickens.

Amtmann

westtip wrote: »

Dempsey should be sacked for his utterances yesterday

Agreed. And, amongst other things he called the Shannon Tunnel scheme a motorway (it isn't). A small point perhaps, but he should no better. Methinks he doesn't really have a handle on his brief.

invinciblePRSTV

fresca wrote: »

I don't doubt that Dublin needs the infrastructure.
I congratulate dublin on being lucky enough to have obtained funding for it's projects.

However, I also live in Kerry.
The simple fact of life for me is that this government is running down Kerry General Hospital (KGH) in Tralee. To attend Cork University Hospital (CUH) in Cork city is a journey of about 110km and can take between 2 and 3 hrs by road.

Now somebody who does not know the topography may look at the map and say "tralee is not so far from cork - one hospital would do".
But quite simply, with the existing N22, people will die before they get to CUH.
Now, I'm not trying to be emotive, but please understand, for us in kerry, both the N21 and N22 roads are lifelines for us.

Sadly the Southwest lost out again in this latest round of brokerage politics. Cork City is well on target to having the most dilapidated N roads infrastructure of any of the regional cities (despite generally paying its own way and adding more to the national coffers then anywhere else bar the GDA).

At the risk of having the parochial tag attached to me i don't think asking for the SRR interchanges, Dunkettle upgrade & the Cork - Mallow line stations project brought back onto the agenda is asking for too much considering the volumes of traffic and potential for passenger usage is factored in, as well as the limited costs involved compared to plans for yet more greenfield Motorways.

There is certainly more merit to funding at least some of these projects then WRC 2nd phase, M18 Section AC section, the Derry/Strabane M-way or even the M/N11 upgrades. Although i'd consider a Galway City bypass essential ahead of sections of the AC as well.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

The final analysis clearly shows that MCC never had any real intention of reopening the line and that Fianna Fail promised it without any detailed knowledge of the route and eventually pile drived a motorway across it after it became Government policy. Is it a scandal? Yes it is, but unfortunately the media don't care and I live on this particular island alone.:D

.

I'm Spartacus.

Hogzy

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Sadly the Southwest lost out again in this latest round of brokerage politics. Cork City is well on target to having the most dilapidated N roads infrastructure of any of the regional cities (despite generally paying its own way and adding more to the national coffers then anywhere else bar the GDA).

Agreed.

At the risk of having the parochial tag attached to me i don't think asking for the SRR interchanges, Dunkettle upgrade & the Cork - Mallow line stations project brought back onto the agenda is asking for too much considering the volumes of traffic and potential for passenger usage is factored in, as well as the limited costs involved compared to plans for yet more greenfield Motorways.

In relation to the SRR interchanges. They have to be done. They just have to. Traffic at rush hour at both Bandon and Sarsfield is an absolute nightmare. Do politicians realise just how much traffic the SRR actually has to deal with on a daily basis. Im absolutely flabbergasted that they havnt been grade separated yet.
Although i would imagine it being pointless upgrading the SRR without making Dunkettle freeflow (or just better able to cope with the traffic) and, correct me if im wrong, but there doesnt seem to be any progress Re: Designs etc, in relation to dunkettle