Gardai battle crime gangs in rental cars

Turner

From the Evening Herald.ie

GARDAI are battling crime gangs in Dublin – in rented cars.

The cash-squeezed force is now issuing its detectives with hire cars.

Unable to replace many of their clapped-out patrol vehicles with new models, finance chiefs in the force are turning to rental companies.

Undercover officers in two of Dublin’s busiest divisions are operating the hire cars – the same type of vehicles used by tourists. The idea is being piloted in the North Central and South Central divisons.

“In North Central our guys are battling to keep the Christy Griffin feud under control.

“Five lives have already been lost in that feud, including the latest, Stephen ‘Madser’ Byrne. Yet now some of the DOs (detectives) investigating the case are being issued with hire cars,” said a source.

“It’s the same in the south city. Some of the officers investigating Fat Freddie and the other gangsters are going around in rentals,” the source added.

A Garda Representative Association (GRA) source revealed that one rental car was clamped, as council workers had no idea it was a garda vehicle.

"What we really need is money for new cars. The Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern needs to give the force the cash to replace the terrible state the garda fleet is in," said the GRA source.

The hire cars are being used to supplement the stations' fleet of bought vehicles. Instead of buying new cars ---kitted out with the necessary communications and lights -- the force is sourcing civilian vehicles from private companies.

The cars are being driven by some plain-clothes detectives and not by uniformed gardai who continue to drive marked squad cars, according to information received by the Herald.

DECISION

No decision has been made yet on whether to extend the project to stations across the country, it is understood.

But a nationwide roll-out of the policy is being considered by senior garda management, the Herald understands.

A Garda spokesman said they were "not in a position to respond" when contacted by the Herald.

The issue of the cost of squad cars was in the news last month when it emerged more than 700 of the vehicles were bought by the State in 2006 without any discount being secured.

At that time, there was a surplus of garda cars so some of the vehicles ended up in storage for a year and a half.

An Garda Siochana bought the cars after getting a late allocation of €17m from the Exchequer. However, there was no provision for a discount in the contract with the supplier, the Ford Motor Company.

Some 300 of the 726 cars bought in the last two months of 2006 were not used for up to a year-and-a-half.

Nevertheless, gardai say they are being forced to drive around in a rickety old fleet of cars, most of which haven't passed the NCT.

Members of the Garda Representative Association (GRA) recently slammed the Minister for Justice, Dermot Ahern, after it emerged nearly half of the garda fleet is over four years old, and unsuitable for fighting crime.

Figures released by the Department of Justice stated that, on May 6, the Garda fleet was 2,014, of which 957 are over four years old.

Garda Ultan Sherlock, a member of the GRA, said that the minister's assertion last year that Ireland was the best-resourced police force in Europe was a "farce".

Garda Thomas Keane, of Ennis station, said: "Until 2008 we had a fleet of vehicles in An Garda Siochana that we were proud of. With no budget for replacement vehicles, the fleet had deteriorated rapidly."

Minister Ahern said that there had been a "sustained programme of investment in garda vehicles" amounting to some €72m in the period 2007 to 2009. He said Garda authorities were developing a request for tender with a view to purchasing more new cars this year.

hnews@herald.ie


I actually cannot believe that this could be rolled out nationwide.

And i still cannot believe that Garda cars do not have to undergo the NCT for safety inspection.

Taxi's are required to undergo the test yearly.

However Garda cars that are required to partake in high speed driving and in some cases dangerous pursuits never get tested for safety, apart from regular main dealer servicing.

gardatrafficop

know of one car thats not far off the 350K km mark

gardatrafficop

gardatrafficop wrote: »

know of one car thats not far off the 350K km mark

Whoever is driving that is a fúckíng idiot. The manufacturer won't stand over the cars after 300k so why would anybody be stupid enough to drive that? If it is because of a threat to withdraw somebodies chiefs then they have no idea.

Delancey

Surely this will see an increase in occurences of the ludicrious situation of Gardai calling for Urgent back up and doing pursuit commentaries on a mobile phone after dialling 999 - crazy !

stop

Now, more than ever, the Gardai need McNulty..

msg11

Why do they need to be brand new? Can they not just by low milage private cars? This would, enable 2-3 cars to be bought for the price of 1 new one?

Scan Man

delancey42 wrote: »

Surely this will see an increase in occurences of the ludicrious situation of Gardai calling for Urgent back up and doing pursuit commentaries on a mobile phone after dialling 999 - crazy !

Hardly. If they were issued with a TETRA handheld which had pre-existing authorisation on the network to it's local "Alpha" set it would work the same as if used by a uniform on foot patrol, as unlike the old VHF/UHF system the range is cellular, rather than being based on Line-of-Sight and repeaters. It's also statistically more secure than a mobile and the network coverage functions in the same way, which must be fairly high in the DMR given the investment in the network.

Of course this is all theory, whether the €100 million to €300 million system is actually working is very much a secret, but there doesn't seem to be many complaints.

mathepac

Where are the crims getting the dough to rent the cars?

Locust

mathepac wrote: »

Where are the crims getting the dough to rent the cars?

Quote from the above article:-
"GARDAI are battling crime gangs in Dublin – in rented cars."

Note it does not read "CRIMINALS are battling Gardai in Dublin - in rented cars."

cushtac

msg11 wrote: »

Why do they need to be brand new? Can they not just by low milage private cars? This would, enable 2-3 cars to be bought for the price of 1 new one?

Because no garage currently doing the servicing will stand over the history of a second-hand car. If they can't guarantee the work previously done on a vehicle they won't touch it.

mathepac

Locust wrote: »

Quote from the above article:-
"GARDAI are battling crime gangs in Dublin – in rented cars."

Note it does not read "CRIMINALS are battling Gardai in Dublin - in rented cars."

Quote from the above thread title :- Gardai battle crime gangs in rental cars

Note it does not read "Gardai in rental cars battle crime gangs"

trad

Not that new a phenomenen. A fleet of Granada's were leased in for an EU summit around 1990 and were used by ERU. At least one of them was shot up in a bank robbery and the leasing company wouldn't take it back as far as I can recall.

Delancey

trad wrote: »

Not that new a phenomenen. A fleet of Granada's were leased in for an EU summit around 1990 and were used by ERU. At least one of them was shot up in a bank robbery and the leasing company wouldn't take it back as far as I can recall.

Ah ,Ford Granadas which were the first instance of product placement on British T.V. via ' The Sweeney '.

shakin

trad wrote: »

Not that new a phenomenen. A fleet of Granada's were leased in for an EU summit around 1990 and were used by ERU. At least one of them was shot up in a bank robbery and the leasing company wouldn't take it back as far as I can recall.

they got a fleet of audis for the EU presidency a few years ago also.

Ziycon

Didn't AGS not buy a massive batch of cars from Ford a few years ago, I was under the impression that they where currently in storage!?

trad

Have you any idea how quick the Gardai go through cars? I worked on the border during the troubles and you could put 100,000 miles up on a cortina in 12 months and that was 30 years ago.

belacqua_

Ziycon wrote: »

Didn't AGS not buy a massive batch of cars from Ford a few years ago, I was under the impression that they where currently in storage!?

I read that somewhere too :rolleyes:

Leo Demidov

Ziycon wrote: »

Didn't AGS not buy a massive batch of cars from Ford a few years ago, I was under the impression that they where currently in storage!?

They're in storage alright, just behing the e-voting machines and the HSE consignment of toilet paper and brian cowens new merc!

pah

We got a 2007 mondeo in Jan 2008. As of last week there was 260k kms on it. It's spent as much time in the garage in the last 6 months as it has on the road.

People do forget that these cars are going 24/7 even a road sales man goes home in the evening and sleeps at night while his car is parked up, the mileage racks up pretty fast.

msg11

cushtac wrote: »

Because no garage currently doing the servicing will stand over the history of a second-hand car. If they can't guarantee the work previously done on a vehicle they won't touch it.

What ? I don't understand that. I have a car there I service it myself, if for some reason I needed to go a main dealer for a service. I really cannot see them refusing to service it.

I am sure you would find a garage that would happly take the business. You know it's just an idea. Money is not exactly flush at the moment, take advantage of value for money get 2-3 instead of one brand new one.

End of the day, it's car they all do the same thing, take you from A to B .

pah

End of the day, it's car they all do the same thing, take you from A to B .

Ours take us from A to Z

cushtac

msg11 wrote: »

What ? I don't understand that. I have a car there I service it myself, if for some reason I needed to go a main dealer for a service. I really cannot see them refusing to service it.

They will refuse because they won't put themselves in a position to guarantee the work of other, possibly unknown mechanics. Garda vehicles are serviced & repaired by main dealers from day one, so all work done can be attributed to specific garages and they stand over that work. If the work isn't up to scratch the Gardaí know what garage to attribute it to. If the Gardaí were to buy second-hand cars and then present those cars to a contracted garages for servicing, the garages would not be in a position to say that all previous work was done properly & won't touch them for fear they get the blame for previous shoddy work.

msg11 wrote: »

I am sure you would find a garage that would happly take the business. You know it's just an idea. Money is not exactly flush at the moment, take advantage of value for money get 2-3 instead of one brand new one.

It's not just a question of the Super taking the car down to Mick the mechanic who's working out of a lock-up. Vehicles are bought directly from the manufacturers and part of the contracts involve maintenance from the main dealers.

For the discounted price Gardaí generally buy new cars for, you would not get anything like 2 or 3 decent second-hand cars. Money's not flush, but you can't scrimp on some things.

msg11 wrote: »

End of the day, it's car they all do the same thing, take you from A to B .

Most Garda vehicles are on the go for anywhere between 15 and 20 hours a day, every day. The only days they're not in use are the days they're in a garage. On top of that they're frequently driven harder than your average family runabout, the inside is often damaged by uncooperative prisoners and sometimes deliberately rammed during pursuits.

petergfiffin

Might be a stupid suggestion but would it not make sense (where a barracks is close) for the army to service Garda cars? After all they have qualified mechanics, fully equipped garages and a lot of their vehicles are Fords too, even if was just for major overhauls surely it would save some money.

For that matter does anybody know if each dept (Justice, Defence) buys their own vehicles or whether the govt compiles a list of all the vehicles needed and then goes out to tender?

cushtac

Ziycon wrote: »

Didn't AGS not buy a massive batch of cars from Ford a few years ago, I was under the impression that they where currently in storage!?

726 were bought from Ford at the end of 2006, 300 of which were in storage for about a year & a half after that. All of these have long been issued by now.

civdef

As regards prisoners damaging vehicles, are vans with cages used for this job much?

In other countries, where patrol cars are used to carry prisoners, they can be modified for the job - hard plastic seats with no handy gaps between cushions, screens separating prisoner from driver etc - has this ever been tried here?

cushtac

civdef wrote: »

As regards prisoners damaging vehicles, are vans with cages used for this job much?

They are used when available. There are less vans available than cars and less van drivers, so often the van is not available & the car must be used.

civdef wrote: »

In other countries, where patrol cars are used to carry prisoners, they can be modified for the job - hard plastic seats with no handy gaps between cushions, screens separating prisoner from driver etc - has this ever been tried here?

It's been asked for time & again, but never delivered.

msg11

cushtac I feel what you are saying here. And it's not that I disagree with you, there just suggestions on getting more for your money, you could even get a high performance car second hand for the price of one new family saloon.

Suppose if you want to put it this way, I am coming from the value for money side of things.

A second hand 07 with 30,000 on the clock is not going to have anything major done mechanical wise, the odd oil change etc..

cushtac

msg11 wrote: »

cushtac I feel what you are saying here. And it's not that I disagree with you, there just suggestions on getting more for your money, you could even get a high performance car second hand for the price of one new family saloon.

How many cars would you get that fit the current fleet with a full service history from a main dealer? I wouldn't say you'd get enough to make it worth the effort of looking for them.

msg11 wrote: »

Suppose if you want to put it this way, I am coming from the value for money side of things.

I'm coming from the health & safety side of things.

msg11 wrote: »

A second hand 07 with 30,000 on the clock is not going to have anything major done mechanical wise, the odd oil change etc..

Says who? The owner?

Delancey

civdef wrote: »

As regards prisoners damaging vehicles, are vans with cages used for this job much?

In other countries, where patrol cars are used to carry prisoners, they can be modified for the job - hard plastic seats with no handy gaps between cushions, screens separating prisoner from driver etc - has this ever been tried here?

Anyone remember the famous incident in Portlaoise a couple of years back when due to the non-availability of a van a prisoner had to be transported to the station in the back of a trailer ? Widely reported at the time.

Zambia

civdef wrote: »

As regards prisoners damaging vehicles, are vans with cages used for this job much?

In other countries, where patrol cars are used to carry prisoners, they can be modified for the job - hard plastic seats with no handy gaps between cushions, screens separating prisoner from driver etc - has this ever been tried here?

Sadly the crewman is no longer in production in four doors and vicpol have switched to this



The back comes of so when you buy your new ute you use the same prisoner cage as the old one. Well so I hear. The prisoner cannot really damage the interior that much.

deadwood

Zambia232 wrote: »

The back comes of so when you buy your new ute you use the same prisoner cage as the old one.

A new ute? Streuth. Only seems loike a wiggleboogle in the billabong since we bought the laaaaaaaaast one, cobbah!

Andrew33

pah wrote: »

We got a 2007 mondeo in Jan 2008. As of last week there was 260k kms on it. It's spent as much time in the garage in the last 6 months as it has on the road.

People do forget that these cars are going 24/7 even a road sales man goes home in the evening and sleeps at night while his car is parked up, the mileage racks up pretty fast.

I don't know where you're based (nor do I want to!) but drive by Pearse St station any night of the week and you'll see patrol cars (and unmarked mondeos) parked up for hours on end so I'd question your statement re Garda cars being on the go 24/7. I reckon this whole rented car story is bullsh1t "leaked" to the press to generate some kind of rumour that gardai are in rented cars so you'll never be able to spot them:rolleyes:
What rental company in their right mind would rent a fleet to a police force???

Locust

Andrew33 wrote: »

I don't know where you're based (nor do I want to!) but drive by Pearse St station any night of the week and you'll see patrol cars (and unmarked mondeos) parked up for hours on end so I'd question your statement re Garda cars being on the go 24/7.

I'd back up that man's statement i work in Dublin and there is always a heap of cars out trying to cover the areas and do calls at any one time. Where i work our cars are like he said, on the go 24-7, bar calling back to station with prisoners/enquiries/break etc other than that they are on the go. The demands of police driving by nature are hard on the vehicles. Breaking/Accelerating/Gear,clutch changes, long distance, tires, oil etc...

I won't say the mileage on our cars, but i'd love to see all the parts that have gone through the cars since i worked there all laid out on the floor, now that would be some sight!

pah

Andrew33 wrote: »

I don't know where you're based (nor do I want to!) but drive by Pearse St station any night of the week and you'll see patrol cars (and unmarked mondeos) parked up for hours on end so I'd question your statement re Garda cars being on the go 24/7. I reckon this whole rented car story is bullsh1t "leaked" to the press to generate some kind of rumour that gardai are in rented cars so you'll never be able to spot them:rolleyes:
What rental company in their right mind would rent a fleet to a police force???

Well I don't mean 24 hrs non stop.
Let's say 20 hours in the day.
260000 kms over 30 months so say 900 days
That!s an average of 290kms a day or just over 2000kms a week

It,s a lot of mileage on a two and a half year old car by any standards

Andrew33

Andrew33 wrote: »

I don't know where you're based (nor do I want to!) but drive by Pearse St station any night of the week and you'll see patrol cars (and unmarked mondeos) parked up for hours on end so I'd question your statement re Garda cars being on the go 24/7.

The point being made is that the cars being used by the regular units are on the go for almost every hour out of 24. You do not have the option of taking another units car just because you want to spread the mileage out nicely across a stations fleet. :rolleyes:

Andrew33

foreign wrote: »

The point being made is that the cars being used by the regular units are on the go for almost every hour out of 24. You do not have the option of taking another units car just because you want to spread the mileage out nicely across a stations fleet. :rolleyes:

Whats with the roll eyes?
Are you trying to tell me that a unit couldn't take a car that was sitting outside the door if their own car was unavailable. Horse apples.

pah

You'd be surprised how much common sense isn't utilised in Favor of organizational culture.

opti76

Andrew33 wrote: »

Whats with the roll eyes?
Are you trying to tell me that a unit couldn't take a car that was sitting outside the door if their own car was unavailable. Horse apples.

thats exactly the situation. regular cant use branch cars .traffic cant use regular cars and vice versa.

Andrew33

opti76 wrote: »

thats exactly the situation. regular cant use branch cars .traffic cant use regular cars and vice versa.

Fair enough.

Zambia

deadwood wrote: »

A new ute? Streuth. Only seems loike a wiggleboogle in the billabong since we bought the laaaaaaaaast one, cobbah?

fyp all aussies end their sentences with a question. Well it sounds that way.

Zambia

opti76 wrote: »

thats exactly the situation. regular cant use branch cars .traffic cant use regular cars and vice versa.

What are all the keys not in a big bowl at the front desk ....:D

Next you will be telling us K-9 cant use a yaris ?

Zambia232

Zambia232 wrote: »

What are all the keys not in a big bowl at the front desk ....:D

Next you will be telling us K-9 cant use a yaris ?

Of course they can't. Dogs can't drive stupid. :P

Andrew33

opti76 wrote: »

thats exactly the situation. regular cant use branch cars .traffic cant use regular cars and vice versa.

Just coming back on that, I've seen uniforms on patrol in an unmarked car on more than one occasion, what's that about?

Hooch

Andrew33 wrote: »

Just coming back on that, I've seen uniforms on patrol in an unmarked car on more than one occasion, what's that about?

Unmarked cars are attached to regular units and Traffic units......

Terrontress

Andrew33 wrote: »

What rental company in their right mind would rent a fleet to a police force???

The sort which will inspect the car afterwards and present an itemised bill for each piece of damage, running in to the thousands.

Andrew33

Terrontress wrote: »

The sort which will inspect the car afterwards and present an itemised bill for each piece of damage, running in to the thousands.

Na, I still don't buy it. But! if it turns out to be true, the genius in whichever dept(finance or justice??) who signed off on this should be sacked without pension. You can be sure that the final bill for a rental car after 3 years would be much higher than the cost of purchasing and maintaining a car over the same period, specially when the rental company knows its being paid for from the public purse.

deltaromeo82

Our car is in for repair every week. The other night we had to push start it in front of members of the public on a public road. What an embaressment

Zambia

deltaromeo82 wrote: »

Our car is in for repair every week. The other night we had to push start it in front of members of the public on a public road. What an embaressment

Oh thats bad .....:o

ivabiggon

sorry correct me if i'm wrong but did i read some where on Boards.ie that this is common practice in britain, not rental cars but fleet leasing, and when they reach a certain milage they're returned and sold off, hence the reason for the silver colour patrol cars,(better resale value). so why wouldn't that work here if done correctly?

http://www.leaseexperts.com/POLICE_CAR_LEASING.htm

fatcontroler

The met police have tested Skoda's for use in their force.
All car have passed their test's so why arent we using them they are alot cheaper to purchase than ford or toyota's and can be done on 3 year lease deals. Have alook at the following link for met test results

http://www.skoda.co.uk/PDF/emergency-services-report.pdf

Delancey

The P.S.N.I. have used Skoda Octavias for some time now and I believe have found they perform well.