women in wrestling today

paddyismaddy

whats your take on the current situation in tna and wwe about women wrestlers or does it matter at all as long as they look fine

tna had a decent knockout division while kong, victoria/tara and hamada were there but now there are gone and they are left with the bps, angelina, taylor, daffney (very underrated for me, she deserves a title push) and sarita i think. i think tara is coming back.

wwe have beth out injured, laycool (not a fan of mrs taker but layla is getting better) natayla (she needs to wrestle more) eve, alicia both who have gotten better, maryse (she dont even need to wrestle i'd watch her all day), tiffany and kelly kelly aka token blondes, gail kim wasted since her return from tna, melina (will be back soon) rosa mendes and now tamina and of course excuse me vickie

mickie james and katie lea releases were shocks even though james did get very clumsy and sloppy in the ring

i wish they would scrap the diva title

remember when a divas match headlined raw (i miss trish and lita)

anyways thoughts opinions

Diabhal Beag

I really liked the Eve - Alicia Fox match. Nobody gave it any credit but it was great for a woman's match.

Rosa Mendes is my fave Diva

HBK

None of them can wrestle a lick, bring back Bertha Fay and Alundra Blaze!

dlofnep

Women wrestling is shíte. They can't wrestle. Even the best woman wrestler, is terrible.

GTR63

Womens Wrestling is terrible now.They get 3 minute matches & still screw up.Look at the Womens match at Mania a Carwreck.
Melina & LayCool act like they're unique but they're as bad of as Eve Torres or Alicia fox in my opinion. Then you've women like Maryse who gets a reaction for Posing & dressing like a tart.
Trish & Lita were Hot but they could actually wrestle.Kong vs Gail Kim matches were a Highpoint for Womens Wrestling which hasn't been topped by any Garbage you see now in TNA or WWE.

irish_stevo815

paddyismaddy wrote: »

remember when a divas match headlined raw (i miss trish and lita)

anyways thoughts opinions

Yeah i remember that too. It was for the Women's title back in the good ol days (pre-PG). I think that match had something to do with a feud between the Hardys and who ever Trish was involved with at teh time (could be mistaken tho).

But these 2 divas, along with Chyna were actually well worth watching i must say. Now a days, divas matches for me are no more than filler / toilet break matches.

michael.etc...

dlofnep wrote: »

Women wrestling is shíte. They can't wrestle. Even the best woman wrestler, is terrible.

Absolute load of crap. You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.

To answer the OP,Women's wrestling in the US is in a terrible state. TNA developed a decent division for a while then stupidly let it die. WWE aren't interested in the slightest and have done more than anyone to cultivate the prehistoric notion that women cannot wrestle. They have this horrible habit of presenting the same feud over and over, and just rotating a different individual into the challenger role. It's really awful. Rarely is there a division as such. Shame really, given the efforts of Trish Stratus and the solid foundations laid by Finlay.
Eve vs Alicia Fox was actually decent in comparison to the rest of the stuff on TV right now, but given how awful it's been, that's not saying much. It's terrible that it can be looked upon as a fair go by two women, when really it was rather poor considering it was a title match. Essentially, turning wannabe celebrities into wrestlers is not the right approach, and fighting, whether it's fake or not, doesn't come naturally to them.

If you can cope with the production values, Shimmer is a fine product, good, old-school stories and feuds, that just happens to be a women's roster.

JP Liz V1

I think the fact that recently two former diva search winners held the Women's Title and Diva Title in WWE says alot :rolleyes:

My favourite was by far Lita I loved her feuds with Stephanie and Trish and her being part of Team Extreme also its a shame she got a crap exit

I hate McTool if she wasnt with Taker she would be long gone by now

Did TNA release Hamada, she was even better than some of the male wrestlers

GTR63

How many people were pissed off that wwe had 2 womens matches the MITB ppv.Just cause Alicia Fox & Eve Torres didn't injure each other everyones saying it wasn't bad.
Hardly a gripping match that had me demanding it last another 10 minutes.
Another thing that pisses me off is we get womens watches at every ppv,yet Christian or Bourne are lucky to get a match at every ppv.

Vince135792003

Yeah I think some of the woman are judged unfairly by alot of people including some of the major reporters like Dave Meltzer. It seems like however hard they try the general consensus is "Aw that was a crap match" which just isn't the case always.

For example, the Eve Torres/Alicia Fox match last Sunday was a decent match. Eves offence needs work but overall it was fine and enjoyable in my opinion.

Mr.Nice Guy

I think the loss of Beth Phoenix has hurt the division in WWE. She's the best they have on their books right now I'd say and certainly not a bad wrestler. Nattie Neidhart is good too. Sadly it looks like they have different priorities for the women though and want them to just be eye candy.

I do think there are talented women out there though. Jennifer Blake I think has a really great look and is improving all the time. Wouldn't surprise me to see her in a major promotion soon (Wrestlicious doesnt count :P).

dlofnep

michael.etc... wrote: »

Absolute load of crap. You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.

No I don't. I've only been watching professional wrestling for nearly 25 years.

Women just don't have the same athetlic ability as men, and will never be able to wrestle to the same calibre as men.

Machismo Fan

dlofnep wrote: »

No I don't. I've only been watching professional wrestling for nearly 25 years.

Women just don't have the same athetlic ability as men, and will never be able to wrestle to the same calibre as men.

You clearly do, Awesome Kong is more entertaining to watch than over half the WWE or TNA roster, male or female.

TNA still have the talent there, just the booking of the division and the talent they've lost has just been ridiculous. They still have enough talent to have a really strong womens division - I really hope they run with Sarita actually, she's been excellent since she turned heel.

And JP Liz, Hamada is technically still on the roster - she just hasn't been used in a long while (which is a shame as she's awesome).

dlofnep

Female wrestling is not interesting to me. And most of the ones who do wrestling, are just models who are taught to take a few bumps. The ones who can actually hold a match are few and far between.

In the same respect, talentless hacks like Batista also do not interest me. But just because terrible wrestlers exist in the WWE or any other organisation, does not mean I should desire to see them replaced by women wrestlers. On the contrary, I'd rather see them replaced by the likes of smaller, less-built guys who can actually wrestle. Guys with legitimate mat wrestling abilit like Shelton Benjamin, who was greatly underused.

Mr.Nice Guy

dlofnep wrote: »

No I don't. I've only been watching professional wrestling for nearly 25 years.

Women just don't have the same athetlic ability as men, and will never be able to wrestle to the same calibre as men.

There was probably a time when I felt the same way but having seen some of the wrestling from Japan such as in All Japan Women's Pro Wrestling in the late 80s, early 90s it really ended that misconception I had.

Have you checked out matches from the likes of Manami Toyota, Bull Nakano, Akira Hokuto etc? If you haven't I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. Worth a look on Youtube if you have the time.

michael.etc...

dlofnep wrote: »

No I don't. I've only been watching professional wrestling for nearly 25 years.

Women just don't have the same athetlic ability as men, and will never be able to wrestle to the same calibre as men.

It doesn't matter how long you've been watching it for, your statement is nonsense.

Plenty of women are of the same, or comparable athletic ability to men, and to say otherwise is an out-dated, sexist statement. And plenty of women have been able to work to the same calibre in wrestling. It just doesn't happen often in the US. Check out some All Japan Women's, particularly from the mid-Eighties to mid-nineties.

I agree with what Vince135792003 said about women's bouts being judged harshly, it can often be. However, I understand Dave's point of view. He's seen countless superb ladies matches, and the WWE should be presenting the cream of the crop, but instead their stuff is poor in comparison. But he can be overly dismissive of those in WWE who have good days.

starviewadams

Women's wrestling has always generally been ****e in the WWE with notable exceptions for the likes of Chyna,Trish,Lita,Jazz and Beth Phoenix.Mickie James was decent enough,Gail Kim's on the roster but doesnt seem to be arsed(cant really blame her)and Alicia Fox,Eve,McTaker and Rosa Mendes are the best of a mediocre bunch now.Thing's will stay exactly the same as long as the WWE keep hiring lingerie models instead of women with an actual interest in and aptitude for pro-wrestling.

Also another exception that I've only remembered: Molly Holly,she was awesome!

dlofnep

Yes I have, but Japan is a different kettle of fish. In America, they look for women with good looks - rather than those could have actual wrestling talent. Japanese fans are much more appreciative of mat-ability.

I probably should have limited my comment to American wrestling. But as a rule, I don't find female wrestling interesting and felt that they wasted TV time that could be used to push a spot for cruiserweights or lesser titles.

dlofnep

michael.etc... wrote: »

Plenty of women are of the same, or comparable athletic ability to men, and to say otherwise is an out-dated, sexist statement.

It's not sexist nor is it outdated. It's a fact. Men are by their very nature are more physical than women. Are there athletic women out there who are good, and passionate about what they do? Of course. But in most part - female wrestling is atrocious and a waste of TV time.

michael.etc...

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes I have, but Japan is a different kettle of fish. In America, they look for women with good looks - rather than those could have actual wrestling talent. Japanese fans are much more appreciative of mat-ability.

I probably should have limited my comment to American wrestling. But as a rule, I don't find female wrestling interesting and felt that they wasted TV time that could be used to push a spot for cruiserweights or lesser titles.

What you're saying about the difference between American and Japan is true definitely. However, it doesn't make your statement that

Women just don't have the same athetlic ability as men, and will never be able to wrestle to the same calibre as men

any more reasonable. It's simply wrong, whether you find them interesting or not.

It's not sexist nor is it outdated. It's a fact. Men are by their very nature are more physical than women. Are there athletic women out there who are good, and passionate about what they do? Of course. But in most part - female wrestling is atrocious and a waste of TV time.

Erm, it is sexist. It's also not a fact. It's a gross generalisation. Sure it may apply when you collate a bunch of figures and work out averages. But it does not mean there are not, or have not been female workers in the US capable of wrestling to the standard of men.

munsterrugby09

is trish stratus still around?she was a fine piece of gear:D:D

dlofnep

michael.etc... wrote: »

What you're saying about the difference between American and Japan is true definitely. However, it doesn't make your statement that

any more reasonable. It's simply wrong, whether you find them interesting or not.



Erm, it is sexist. It's also not a fact. It's a gross generalisation. Sure it may apply when you collate a bunch of figures and work out averages. But it does not mean there are not, or have not been female workers in the US capable of wrestling to the standard of men.

Yawn.

It's not sexist.

It's a fact.

michael.etc...

dlofnep wrote: »

Yawn.

It's not sexist.

It's a fact.

Surely someone who operates as a moderator here should avoid such worthless posts? Not wishing to go back-and-forth on this all day, but you did post a ridiculously sexist bunch of statements, based on a matter of your narrow-minded taste. They are not facts at all.

women...... will never be able to wrestle to the same calibre as men

How is that a fact?

Machismo Fan

Gail Kim's matches with Kong and Jacqueline along with The Beautiful People proved beyond all reasonable doubt that good womens wrestling can draw in North America. The Kong/Kim and Jackie/Kim matches are some of the most physical matches I remember - sure Gail even knocked a tooth of Jackie's out with a Kendo Stick. Just that WWE pay no attention to their womens division and that TNA have booked theirs into oblivion doesn't mean good womens wrestling doesn't exist.

starviewadams

So you're basically saying that a Gail Kim or Hamada will never be as good a wrestler as guys like Viscera, Big Show,Mark Henry etc??

To quote Gilesy ''Loada nonsense there bill!''

dlofnep

michael.etc... wrote: »

Surely someone who operates as a moderator here should avoid such worthless posts? Not wishing to go back-and-forth on this all day, but you did post a ridiculously sexist bunch of statements, based on a matter of your narrow-minded taste. They are not facts at all.

I haven't posted one sexist statement. Claiming that men are inherently more atheletic than women is not sexist. It is a well documented fact. This is because of various reasons - one of them being testosterone levels in men are higher than women.

That is why the strongest person, fastest person, quickest swimmer, best amateur wrestler, best boxer, best kick-boxer, best judoka, highest jumper and longest jumper is a male.

There's nothing to discuss. I don't have narrow-minded taste. Just because I'm not interested in female wrestling does not mean I am narrow-minded. You're unable to accept that not everyone subscribes to your view on women wrestling. Tough. Deal with it.

Machismo Fan

dlofnep wrote: »

There's nothing to discuss. I don't have narrow-minded taste. Just because I'm not interested in female wrestling does not mean I am narrow-minded. You're unable to accept that not everyone subscribes to your view on women wrestling. Tough. Deal with it.

There's a big difference between not liking something and completely dismissing it. There are plenty of things that I don't like personally but can still respect.

dlofnep

Machismo Fan wrote: »

There's a big difference between not liking something and completely dismissing it. There are plenty of things that I don't like personally but can still respect.

It doesn't appeal to me. I don't find it interesting. We're all offering our opinions here, aren't we? Was this not a thread created to gauge people's opinions on female wrestling?

michael.etc...

dlofnep wrote: »

I haven't posted one sexist statement. Claiming that men are inherently more atheletic than women is not sexist. It is a well documented fact. This is because of various reasons - one of them being testosterone levels in men are higher than women.

That is why the strongest person, fastest person, quickest swimmer, best amateur wrestler, best boxer, best kick-boxer, best judoka, highest jumper and longest jumper is a male.

There's nothing to discuss. I don't have narrow-minded taste. Just because I'm not interested in female wrestling does not mean I am narrow-minded. You're unable to accept that not everyone subscribes to your view on women wrestling. Tough. Deal with it.

Again,my issue has nothing whatsoever to do with your opinion on women's wrestling. I couldn' care less. If you don't enjoy it, I'm glad you stand up and say so. It's with your claim that women will never be able to wrestle to the standard of men. Opinions are fine, yeah, but you've been offering your sweeping statements as fact.

Machismo Fan

dlofnep wrote: »

It doesn't appeal to me. I don't find it interesting. We're all offering our opinions here, aren't we? Was this not a thread created to gauge people's opinions on female wrestling?

But what you said was:

dlofnep wrote: »

Women wrestling is shíte. They can't wrestle. Even the best woman wrestler, is terrible.

You didn't state is an opinion - you stated it as fact. You made a sweeping generalisation that all womens wrestlers are terrible which simply isn't true. There's a big difference between the two posts I quoted.

dlofnep

michael.etc... wrote: »

Again,my issue has nothing whatsoever to do with your opinion on women's wrestling. I couldn' care less. If you don't enjoy it, I'm glad you stand up and say so. It's with your claim that women will never be able to wrestle to the standard of men. Opinions are fine, yeah, but you've been offering your sweeping statements as fact.

Name one female wrestler that could wrestle to the calibre of a prime Kurt angle.

gimmick

Machismo Fan wrote: »

You didn't state is an opinion - you stated it as fact. You made a sweeping generalisation that all womens wrestlers are terrible which simply isn't true. There's a big difference between the two posts I quoted.

Even if it was offered as an opinion, it would still be wrong.

Vince135792003

dlofnep wrote: »

Women wrestling is shíte. They can't wrestle. Even the best woman wrestler, is terrible.

Objectively, that just doesn't hold up.

michael.etc...

dlofnep wrote: »

Name one female wrestler that could wrestle to the calibre of a prime Kurt angle.

I can't. You clearly then believe him to be, or have been, a great performer. That's fine, I agree. But It's entirely subjective, and any female worker compared against him can be theoretically agreed with or dismissed, because it's subjective.
Also, picking someone who you believe to be a "Great", doesn't mean that the entire female gender is rubbish in comparison. I believe Stan Hansen was a world-class, top-5 in the world in his prime. Does that mean Scott Hall was ****e? Does that mean anyone below his standard should be dismissed?
In addition, how could you make such a comparison when yout take into account that it's not a sport, and the skills of their opponents can make or break matches?

It doesn't make your statements about women's wrestling any more of a "Fact".

For the record, I do also believe there's been several female performers probably as good as Angle in their prime, but it makes no difference to what I'm saying, who they are.

Machismo Fan

dlofnep wrote: »

Name one female wrestler that could wrestle to the calibre of a prime Kurt angle.

There are very few wrestlers ever that could wrestle to the standard of Angle - that's irrelevant.

dlofnep

michael.etc... wrote: »

I can't.

Then my point is made.

I take my my comment that the best women wrestler is terrible. I was being slightly OTT. In most part, I find the level of wrestling to be subpar, and not worthy of TV time.

michael.etc...

dlofnep wrote: »

Then my point is made.

How so?

In your opinion, no female wrestler is as good as Angle, so what does that prove? women are not able to wrestle to the standard of men? Is that still your point?

I didn't name anyone, because it's irrelevant to your presentation of opinion as fact, not because I don't believe there to have been anyone his equal.

Machismo Fan

dlofnep wrote: »

In most part, I find the level of wrestling to be subpar, and not worthy of TV time.

Watch this match: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3zmbh_gail-kim-vs-awesome-kong_shortfilms

and tell me that it's subpar and that it's not worthy of TV time. And there's a lot more female wrestlers out there that can perform to that standard. What WWE present every week does not accurately represent the standard of womens wrestling in general.

Vince135792003

Just on the Kurt Angle thing, if Steffi Graff plays her husband Andre Agassi in a tennis match, she would likely loose. Does that make her any less of a great tennis player?

In other words just because woman physically can't do what men can, doesn't mean they still can't be great at whatever they do. Wrestling is a different ball game anyway.

It's not just about athleticism or moves. It's about psychology, playing your character well, mic work, knowing when to do what, how to get the crowd engaged etc...


There was a Raw house show on it 4 years ago. It had Triple H, Shawn Michaels, John Cena, Kurt Angle and Ric Flair on it.

As good as Cena/Angle match was, coming out of the show the best performed match was Lita and Trish Stratus in my opinion. The work in it was flawless and of ppv standard.

Without doubt, there is alot of bad woman's wrestling out there particularly in WWE because they don't care about the in ring as much as they did a few years ago. That's why they put them in the death spots on ppv.

But there is clearly still woman wrestlers who have talent in the WWE and there are some who show potential and want to get better.

Outside of the WWE, from what I have seen, there are plenty of female wrestlers who are excellent.

Rjd2

I can’t totally write off the WWE ladies. Why? Because girls like Layla entertain me hugely. What I admire about her, she gets her character perfectly. Morrison for example is someone who clearly has no idea what character he portrays, that’s hwy he looks so awkward. As long as she doesn’t start wrestling 20 minutes matches, she will remain one of my favourites. Her partnership with Michelle is awesome as well.

Win, oh and those who say they have ripped of Beautiful People? Get over it, nothing in wrestling is 100% original.

flahavaj

dlofnep: I stopped reading when you started stating your dubious opionions as fact. You can't be doing that and expect anyone with half a brain to take you seriously, sorry mate.

As for women's wrestling not being very good: there is a very strong argument to be made for AJW's run in 1993 as being the greatest calendar year of pro wrestling ever produced, from a purely in-ring perspective. Phenomenal stuff.

The Volt

Anyone notice how if in an inter-gender tag match the woman tags in the man, the woman on the other team now automatically has to get out of the ring? Damn PGWE

Rjd2

Meh, one of the most depressing moments of the attitude WWE was the crowd absolutely begging for The Dudleys to put Trish through a table and Austin stunning Kiebler because she wouldn’t drink a beer. I hated the fact that the crowd was so hot for those segements.

The Volt

Serves Kiebler right tbh :pac:

JP Liz V1

Machismo Fan wrote: »

You clearly do, Awesome Kong is more entertaining to watch than over half the WWE or TNA roster, male or female.

TNA still have the talent there, just the booking of the division and the talent they've lost has just been ridiculous. They still have enough talent to have a really strong womens division - I really hope they run with Sarita actually, she's been excellent since she turned heel.

And JP Liz, Hamada is technically still on the roster - she just hasn't been used in a long while (which is a shame as she's awesome).

Its a shame TNA dont use Hamada (she could have great feuds with Sarita and Tara) more but I guess she is not blonde with fake boobs (how the hell is Lacey still there) :rolleyes:

rossie1977

Voltwad wrote: »

Anyone notice how if in an inter-gender tag match the woman tags in the man, the woman on the other team now automatically has to get out of the ring? Damn PGWE

thats always been the case in the e

gimmick

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Its a shame TNA dont use Hamada (she could have great feuds with Sarita and Tara) more but I guess she is not blonde with fake boobs (how the hell is Lacey still there) :rolleyes:

Leys be honest here, I would imagine there is a far bigger market for fellas watching eye candy prance around in their skimpies than what there is for proper female wrestling, most certainly in the States. That is why the likes of Lacey still has a job.

Its a chicken and egg thing really, womens wrestling in the states generally has not drawn, therfore it is not going to be given a chance to draw.

jaykhunter

I have no respect for the Divas/KOs in WWE/TNA. Both companies have done a stellar job of firing/benching their best wrestlers and to me is nothing more than a toilet break.

What annoys me most about WWE Divas (the TNA ones seem to just wrestle basic moves) is that they try harder moves than they can comfortably do - and so end up botching. It's like they try in vain to not look awful, but what they do compounds the stereotype. They're not wrestlers, they're models who want to be on TV. And it shows.

That's not to say there aren't really talented women's wrestlers in 2010 - there are (Sara Del Rey and MsChif are great, and women like Kim, Sarita etc are underused) but there's no showcasing of talent, so I don't care. TNA have fired most of their best female workers and hide the rest.

I'm probably just an old coot for saying it, but when I see really hot girls like Maryse, I just wind on, because I'm not going to see anything skin, and she can't wrestle to a standard I care to watch. I'd maybe watch even Daffney or Velvet because I think they're super hot...but I still wind on most of the time. There's no point in it to me. If I want titillation I'll watch porn!

I also have to mention, those backstage promo segments with the KOs/Divas are deplorable. Worst acting in wrestling, which is saying a lot. Maria corpsing was horrible, but in general the standard is especially poor. They must take their acting lessons from Amazing Red! :pac::pac:

Wolfe Tone

Womens wrestling these days is just an excuse for a toilet break really. Or a chance to watch some attractive women rolling around. TNA had Kong, that was the only difference, they still had rubbish as well, were the only aim was to appeal to the teenage horny aspects of the audience. I always hated that rubbish, I wanted to watch wrestling. If I wanted that I could watch some porn.



On a physical level men will always be stronger,faster, quicker etc etc.


In a "sport" where all those attributes are necessecary men will excel. One of the few sports I can think of were men and women are equal and can compete against each other fairly is horse racing.

So the guys will always be better, thats just natural.

Personally I do not want to see women engage in faux violence at all. I remember a while back in TNA one girl got put through a table, and another into barbed wire(Daphne) and thumbtacks. I don't want to see that. Its bad enough when the guys do it. I think womens only role in wrestling should be to occupy the Ms Elizabeth role. Or, if they want to wrestle, don't have it so sexualized.

davrho

Don't mind the Diva/Knockouts. To be honest I fast forward through most of their matches.

Plenty of the younger female fans enjoy the matches and they look up to them. If it keeps them interested then fair enough.

All part of the show.

DM_7

WWE can do much better but they don't want to.

I loved Beth v Melina in the I quit match they had. There is room for good female wrestlers in the e just like good cruiser matches but they would prefer to use the time for bad comedy or z list celebrity guest hosts.