Davy Fitz - time for a bit of respect as a manager?

O Riain

When Davy took over waterford, everybody and their granny had already made up their opinion, they hated him, he was useless and had no clue of the game or how to train a team.
2 and a half years on he has got waterford to one (forgettable) All Ireland Final appearance, 2 Munster final appearances with 1 Munster championship title under their belt.
I remember when we first heard of his appointment everyone was crying "we want Anthony Daly instead "
Do people still feel the same or has Davy proven himself?

killbillvol2

O Riain wrote: »

When Davy took over waterford, everybody and their granny had already made up their opinion, they hated him, he was useless and had no clue of the game or how to train a team.

Speak for yourself.

I remember when we first heard of his appointment everyone was crying "we want Anthony Daly instead "
Do people still feel the same or has Daly proven himself?

Everybody?

Your post is such a stupid generalisation it's not worth debating the actual point.

O Riain

are you from waterford? seeing as though davy and daly are both clare men of the same generation, many people in waterford argued at the time we got the worse of the two and im just bringing it up now given Dalys lack of a breakthrough with dublin and Davys success with us.

And if your trying to tell me that davy fitz was a popular man in waterford when he took over then you are just kidding yourself, a hell of alot of people in the county resented him, im just wondering if people are finally warming to him since last years cries of "We've never hurled this bad under Justin!".

Magi11

I think a lot of people looked at Davy Fitz as a bit of a headbanger when he took over. Maybe a man for rousing speeches and pumping his fists but not great tactically. Also, there may have been a feeling that he was too fond of being in the spotlight. The 2008 AIF didn't help to stop this assumption as he seemed to send Waterford out to rough up Kilkenny in the opening exchanges. However, in a week that saw my own county of Monaghan forensically dissected by the greatest tactician of all time, you would have to say that Davy's performance with tactics, motivation and substitutions was the MAIN reason why Waterford won last Saturday.

O Riain

Magi11 wrote: »

I think a lot of people looked at Davy Fitz as a bit of a headbanger when he took over. Maybe a man for great speeches and pumping his fists but not great tactically. The 2008 AIF didn't help to stop this assumption as he seemed to send Waterford out to rough up Kilkenny in the opening exchanges. However, in a week that saw my own county of Monaghan forensically dissected by the greatest tactician of all time, you would have to say that Davy's performance with tactics, motivation and substitutions was the MAIN reason why Waterford won last Saturday.

2008 was a disaster in every manner of the word but asside from that what ive seen of waterford under davy, tactically, has been very impressive.
People tend to point out he's a bit slow on the sideline, which is funny as Justin McCarthy was essentially non-existent on the sideline.
Our forwards have lost a bit of glam, not neccesarily his fault but our defense under him is almost totally unrecognisable, the hooking and blocking in the last two games especially, its been a long time since I hav seen the amount of it from a waterford team.
ON another note in the past he did tend to mouth off a bit, but you'll notice he's a little bit more calm and reserved now.

Fentdog84

The jury is probably still out although he has done reasonably well, although you could argue our hurling has gone backwards, but the pretty stuff wasnt working anymore that we had under justin. Watched a few dvds recently of some of the older matches under Justin and the amount of speculative shots, aimless balls, wides & general wastefulness was unbelievable really and for sure cost us in the bigger games. We are seeing none of that with Davy he seems to be very clued in tactically. We now just dont try to outhurl teams we try to out muscle & outlast them. We seem to be hanging in & finishing games stronger now & there appears to be greater self belief. If we can keep this up, get to an all Ireland final & beat or at least get close to beating Kilkenny Davy will then have my unreserved respect..

O Riain

Fentdog84 wrote: »

The jury is probably still out although he has done reasonably well, although you could argue our hurling has gone backwards, but the pretty stuff wasnt working anymore that we had under justin. Watched a few dvds recently of some of the older matches under Justin and the amount of speculative shots, aimless balls, wides & general wastefulness was unbelievable really and for sure cost us in the bigger games. We are seeing none of that with Davy he seems to be very clued in tactically. We now just dont try to outhurl teams we try to out muscle & outlast them. We seem to be hanging in & finishing games stronger now & there appears to be greater self belief. If we can keep this up, get to an all Ireland final & beat or at least get close to beating Kilkenny Davy will then have my unreserved respect..

I reckon another final is very achievable, the final itself however could go one of two ways.
1. complete redemption for 2008 and a win
2. the fear of 2008 repeating itself actually being so great that it does end up repeating itself.

Magi11

Even last year was impressive. They gave Tipp 3 goals in the Munster final but still only lost by about 5 (I think) but the manner in which they ran KK close was a huge difference to 2008. If Eoin Kelly's volley hadn't been brilliantly saved by PJ Ryan, who knows what might have happened?

Fentdog84

O Riain wrote: »

I reckon another final is very achievable, the final itself however could go one of two ways.
1. complete redemption for 2008 and a win
2. the fear of 2008 repeating itself actually being so great that it does end up repeating itself.

Look, Kilkenny are awesome, there is no hiding away from that fact. Even if we get to the final & play well we could still get battered. davy is a cute hoor & knows this so he wont make any promises about beating them. But we would definitley in better shape now than we were 2 years ago so you never know.. no team is unbeatable

parish girl

I think Davy has done a terrific job. To a certain extent we are a team in transition and for me the best thing is his policy of giving youth its fling. we are so much prepared for the eventual departure of the Big guys Ken, Dan, Seamus. Compared with Cork the upcomming talent is great. I dont know how long Davy will stay/ reappointed but I guess he may not be around when this team hits maturity but he will definately leave us in a way better position than he got us. How many managers can say that? Gerald mc; yes

jordainius

O Riain wrote: »

When Davy took over waterford, everybody and their granny had already made up their opinion, they hated him, he was useless and had no clue of the game or how to train a team.
2 and a half years on he has got waterford to one (forgettable) All Ireland Final appearance, 2 Munster final appearances with 1 Munster championship title under their belt.
I remember when we first heard of his appointment everyone was crying "we want Anthony Daly instead "
Do people still feel the same or has Davy proven himself?

What the hell are you talking about??

Thread on boards from 2008 titled "Davy Fitz New Deise Manager". Vast majority of comments positive and happy with the appointment.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055310657

Tora Bora

I'm from Clare, and general opinion here is that Davy is a bit of a mouth, but has proven himself to be a good manager, coach and tactician at all levels so far from club scene in Clare at various grades with the poorest of clubs, to LIT and now doing it with Waterford. Go on the Deise, bring home the McCarthy this year:D
I think the Waterford man who has moved on the least since the infamous Clare / Waterford Munster final in the nineties, is Paul Flynn:p I get the distint impression, that it sticks in his craw to admit that Davy has brought something to the Waterford camp:pac:

megadodge

A very poorly thought out post OP.

Whether a person is from Waterford or not, if they knew their hurling they should have known the success Davy already had with Limerick IT and Sixmilebridge. That alone (not to mention his All-Ireland winning player experience) would have made any reasonable person realise that maybe there's something more than just passion inside that head.

Don't forget too that when he took over Waterford were in a very bad place - in the middle of the championship having lost their opening game miserably and a lot of talk of wasted talent and a team that were past it.

As for your point on Davy not being popular in Waterford, what has that got to do with anything? I doubt Brian Cody is too popular there either, but if he was appointed manager would you complain?

grenache

I agree that Davy has added a bit of mental steel to this Waterford side. The hurling style is similar in ways to Justin's with the main difference being the amount of pressure applied to opposition players when they have the ball. The intensity of Waterford's play against Cork in both game really impressed me, their 'in your face' mentality has made them a much more difficult side to hurl against. The defensive frailties seemed to have been sorted too. Noel Connors is a gem of a player, Liam Lawlor seems comfortable and at home at full back and Brick Walsh is now one of the top three centre backs in the land. One things for sure, had Davy been in charge in 07, they never would have shipped those five goals to Limerick.

Clareman

Hopefully he'll continue to do a good job down in Waterford cause I'd hate to have him in charge of Clare

Pappy o' daniel

Compare how they played last saturday to how they played under Justin, the beautiful hurling that won the neutrals hearts is gone. But it is effective.

And resting the older players during the league was a smart move.
As someone else said there are Pros and cons to Davys time there.

Royal Seahawk

O Riain wrote: »

are you from waterford? seeing as though davy and daly are both clare men of the same generation, many people in waterford argued at the time we got the worse of the two and im just bringing it up now given Dalys lack of a breakthrough with dublin and Davys success with us.

And if your trying to tell me that davy fitz was a popular man in waterford when he took over then you are just kidding yourself, a hell of alot of people in the county resented him, im just wondering if people are finally warming to him since last years cries of "We've never hurled this bad under Justin!".

I wouldn't compare Davey Fitz's work as Waterford manager to Anthony Daly's achievements as Dublin boss.
The ability and experience of the respective groups of players is vastly different and Dublin are playing in in a provincial competition which is far harder to win.

killbillvol2

O Riain wrote: »

are you from waterford? seeing as though davy and daly are both clare men of the same generation, many people in waterford argued at the time we got the worse of the two and im just bringing it up now given Dalys lack of a breakthrough with dublin and Davys success with us.

And if your trying to tell me that davy fitz was a popular man in waterford when he took over then you are just kidding yourself, a hell of alot of people in the county resented him, im just wondering if people are finally warming to him since last years cries of "We've never hurled this bad under Justin!".

Yes, I am from Waterford but I don't live there. So you and your barstool buddies didn't want Davy, big deal. You probably didn't want Justin McCarthy or Gerald McCarthy when they were appointed and you'd find a fair few who'd give out if Brian Cody took over. Daly has nothing to do with it - he has far less to work with in Dublin than Davy has.

Davy Fitz is a narky little boll** and always was. At the time he took over, not being in Waterford and listeniing to the perennial moaners, I was prepared to wait and see how he got on. He had absolutely nothing to lose in 2008 and did well, but trying to rough up Kilkenny in the final was downright stupid.

To his credit, he learned from that and I was glad he stayed on to have another go. He's continuing to learn and you can't ask much more from a young manager. He still makes tactical mistakes but they're fewer and smaller than they were and he still loses the head on the sideline, but less often.

He's taken no crap from the panel and has decided when palyers should have a lesser role. (I'd imagine he saw a few Clare players who kept their places for a season or two too long so he might be the right man to judge when someone is in decline).

I think, overall, he's made the team harder to beat and clearly has the players believing that they can win tight games. I'd fancy Waterford now if they're within a few points of anyone towards the end of a game.

I think he's done well (and anyone with a brain in 2008 would have been prepared to see how he got on for 3 months) and if he continues to learn he could do the impossible and win an All-Ireland.

deisedevil

Justin liked beautiful hurling, open and free flowing. Great to watch but when it came to the big games against the likes of Kilkenny we were still finding the scores ourselves but we were leaking in defence terribly.

Davy knew that couldn't continue and over time has changed that.

I didn't think he was a good choice to begin with. Over time I was still thinking he wasn't the right choice and that tactically he wasn't a bit sure of himself.

But he's doing as much as Justin has ever done and the key thing is he has now stopped some of the leaks. We don't play the beautiful hurling we once did but now we can stick with teams right until the end these days and give ourselves a fighting chance going into the last 5-10 minutes. The added belief he has installed mentally in the players is fantastic.

I'm still not sure about davy but more than any manager I'm still not sure about the team. They are still well short of Kilkenny and so are any of the other challengers to their crown. The only way Waterford or anyone else is going to beat Kilkenny this year is if Kilkenny beat themselves.

And that won't be Davy's fault, he's given us more of a fighting chance with the way he has layed things out but that's about as much as could be expected. To win an AI will be exceeding expectations in my mind and that's why Davy is keeping quiet on our chances of winning an AI as are the players for that matter in recent interviews.

Magi11

Clareman wrote: »

Hopefully he'll continue to do a good job down in Waterford cause I'd hate to have him in charge of Clare

Hi Clareman, could you explain why? Is it a personal thing? Are Clare still busy celebrating that last Munster senior title of a over a decade ago?

backrow67n8

Clareman wrote: »

Hopefully he'll continue to do a good job down in Waterford cause I'd hate to have him in charge of Clare

Is that your view or an overall opinion of most Clare people? I'm not being smart or anything when I ask that, I've heard a few Clare people say something along the same lines. If thats the overall feeling is it to do with Davy personally or is he not rated as a good coach in the Banner?

PTH2009

If he ever manages Clare the passion would make his head explode.

Wasant he Clare under 21 manager a while back and didnt do well with them ??

NufcNavan

Someone should tell him to calm the feck down and respect a linesman's decision.

deisedevil

NufcNavan wrote: »

Someone should tell him to calm the feck down and respect a linesman's decision.

That's all you have to add. The question was whether he deserves a bit of respect as a manager and you pull out one tiny incident from a match that had been replayed, gone to extra time, was minutes from being won and was still hanging in the balance and he lost the rag over a borderline decision (linesman got it right). Big deal.

Colm R

I think there is a bit of "Phileadelphia Here I come' to Davy.

The public side of Davy gives the impression that he talks, shouts and roars sentiment such as the whole world is against us. There is an impression that his half time team talk is right from d'unbelievables, such as 'Give em hell for leather lads' and 'I want blood on the jersey' and 'give 110% lads' and all that kind of useless banter. Things like Gift Grub don't help.

However, that public persona does not win Munster titles. So Davy clearly has another side which is probably of more benifit to the team. Tactically, Waterford were almost perfect against Cork, and to accomplish this, you need far more management skills that shouting 'Give a 110% lads'.


So its working for Waterford - they have it. Unfortunately for them, and indeed Cork and Tipp, we live in the age of Kilkenny.

O Riain

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Yes, I am from Waterford but I don't live there. So you and your barstool buddies didn't want Davy, big deal. You probably didn't want Justin McCarthy or Gerald McCarthy when they were appointed and you'd find a fair few who'd give out if Brian Cody took over. Daly has nothing to do with it - he has far less to work with in Dublin than Davy has.

Davy Fitz is a narky little boll** and always was. At the time he took over, not being in Waterford and listeniing to the perennial moaners, I was prepared to wait and see how he got on. He had absolutely nothing to lose in 2008 and did well, but trying to rough up Kilkenny in the final was downright stupid.

To his credit, he learned from that and I was glad he stayed on to have another go. He's continuing to learn and you can't ask much more from a young manager. He still makes tactical mistakes but they're fewer and smaller than they were
and he still loses the head on the sideline, but less often.

He's taken no crap from the panel and has decided when palyers should have a lesser role. (I'd imagine he saw a few Clare players who kept their places for a season or two too long so he might be the right man to judge when someone is in decline).

I think, overall, he's made the team harder to beat and clearly has the players believing that they can win tight games. I'd fancy Waterford now if they're within a few points of anyone towards the end of a game.

I think he's done well (and anyone with a brain in 2008 would have been prepared to see how he got on for 3 months) and if he continues to learn he could do the impossible and win an All-Ireland.

Do me a huge favor will you and point out once where I said I didn't want Davy from the start.
As for his credentials Many naysayers came to the conclusion that his success with LIT was mainly due to mr. Canning.
Ya all must think I'm mad but there was a hell of alot of animosity towards Davy at the start, I was hopeful when he came along and when he got us to the final, he had won me over already.

deisedevil

O Riain wrote: »

Do me a huge favor will you and point out once where I said I didn't want Davy from the start.
As for his credentials Many naysayers came to the conclusion that his success with LIT was mainly due to mr. Canning.
Ya all must think I'm mad but there was a hell of alot of animosity towards Davy at the start, I was hopeful when he came along and when he got us to the final, he had won me over already.

"When Davy took over waterford, everybody and their granny had already made up their opinion, they hated him"

That's simply not true.

From my point of view what I remember being generally said about him was that one way or the other the season is going to be a write off now anyway so it can't do any harm and that the players have asked for him specifically and now they have no excuses, they got what they want and they will go out and do everything they can to prove they were right.
There were very few thinking he was the best choice but there wasn't the hatred of him your talking about.

I'm not having a go, just can't remember there being an overwhelming feeling of animosity towards him. More dwindling hope if anything.

hardybuck

I don't buy into this theory that Davy won the Munster title via some sort of tactical masterplan. Consider the following...

1. We scraped past Clare, a poor team with hopes for the future. Division 2 team, and were well beaten by Dublin.

2. Beat Cork, but only just. His tactical meltdown in the last few mins of the drawn game nearly cost us the match. He repositioned the whole defense to replace Lawlor instead of making a direct change with O'Brien-the second choice full back.

Immediately after the changes Cork scored two goals, with one of the changes-Nagle, looking suspect for both goals.

3. The tactics employed against Cork will get us a hammering if we play KK. Isolating Mullane against their full backline would be suicide, as would pulling out the half foward line. KK's half back line would remain position and murder us with good ball into their forwards.

While I feel he has made many mistakes in his tenure, he seems to have learned from many of them, and to give him credit he seems to be improving as a manager.

megadodge

hardybuck wrote: »

1. We scraped past Clare, a poor team with hopes for the future. Division 2 team, and were well beaten by Dublin.

A win is a win. The style doesn't matter.

2. Beat Cork. but only just.

Again, a win is a win. The style doesn't matter.

Before the championship, Waterford were not expected to be anywhere near a Munster title and for both Cork matches they were the betting underdogs.

And while I agree re. the changes before the 2 Cork goals, he guided them to an unexpected Munster title. Whether they won it by a point or 20 points it's still a Munster title!!!

3. The tactics employed against Cork will get us a hammering if we play KK. Isolating Mullane against their full backline would be suicide, as would pulling out the half foward line. KK's half back line would remain position and murder us with good ball into their forwards.

Unless Davy came out and said "I'm going to use these exact tactics against Kilkenny if we meet them", that is a completely and utterly pointless statement.

aidan24326

hardybuck wrote: »

IWhile I feel he has made many mistakes in his tenure, he seems to have learned from many of them, and to give him credit he seems to be improving as a manager.

He is improving and that's all you can ask for. And you'd have to give him credit for staying on after 2008, alot of managers wouldn't have had the heart for it after a trouncing like that. Waterford have a great chance of getting into another final now. Everyone though a couple of years ago that Waterford were finished but he's kept them highly competitive and whether they're playing Galway or Tipp in the semi final they won't fear either. A final against Kilkenny would be a tall order but sure that's the same problem we all have.

hardybuck

megadodge wrote: »

Unless Davy came out and said "I'm going to use these exact tactics against Kilkenny if we meet them", that is a completely and utterly pointless statement.

Well Davy won't come out and say he is going to use any tactics, unless he is braindead, so your statement is even more completely and utterly pointless.

Before Championship we were seen as about the same standard as Cork. We still are. Tipp were expected to blow everyone away but were caught on the hop.

We could easily be taken apart in Croke Park within the next few weeks so people should be reserving judgement on him a while longer.

Daysha

At this stage I'm probably one of DF's biggest fans. So much so that, barring a 2008-esque capitulation in the semi finals, I'd happily sign him up for another 2 years tomorrow morning.

The fact is when he took over the squad was in turmoil. We had lost in the 1st round of Munster, shipping 2-26 against Clare....2-26!! The squad needed freshening up and as a guy who the players could seem to relate to more than Justin, it looked like he was the right man for the job. In the meantime we've lost 3 Championship matches. 2 of them were against the best team ever to play the game, the other we gifted them 3 goals because of a full-back performance that wouldn't be good enough for a junior game.

In every other Championship game we've played, if we were still within a chance of winning with around 10 minutes to go we've gone on to win the game, either in that original 70 minutes or the resulting replay. That is a never-say-die attitude that was non-existant under Justin. You'd lose count on the amount of games we lost by only a couple of points between 2002-2007 because of slack defending in the final quarter.

Granted, when we played well under Justin we were near-unstoppable. The 2002 Munster final, the 04 game against Clare, to a less extent the 07 Munster semi-final against Cork, those were days when everything just clicked. Unfortunately those days weren't near consistent enough for an All-Ireland title.

One of the Sunday Game lads put it well when he said Davy Fitz has done one of the toughest jobs in management, making the transition from one team to another almost seamless. Tipp went through a few barren years before showing their full potential, Galway are still waiting for their underage wins to translate to senior success, but we've gradully brought in those successful minor and U21 players into the setup while still keeping that same consistent level in the Championship.

That is in no small part down to Davy strifing for a competitiveness within the panel none of us have seen in Waterford for a generation. He used 40-something players in the league yet we only lost 2 games. Last weekend a large reason why we finally beat Cork was because of the strength of our subs bench, something that would've been almost laughable under Justin.

In the end of the day, we are 70 minutes away from reaching our 2nd All-Ireland final in 3 years. For a team in such disarray just over 24 months ago that is an unbelievable achievement.