I Drove one of the ESB ECars Today

Boots2006

I think I've seen a glimpse of the future.

It was one of the test Mistubishi i-Miev cars. Totally electric, plug in, no engine.
http://www.esb.ie/main/sustainability/ESB-ecars-news-003.jsp

No ignition key, just keep the keyfob in your pocket. You get a few lights on the dash and a beep when you "start" it. Put the autobox in Drive, release the brake and it creeps off. Silent. Prodding the accelerator gives a nice smooth wave of power. As in very smooth, no gearchanges. You get the same wave of power at any speed. Its nippy enough around town, and the steering is really light, so its a doddle to park with its short overhangs at each end. We didn't get out on the open road, but I reckon it would be happiest around town.

Best thing was the silence and the lack of vibrations. It felt like a much bigger, more expensive car. There was a proper stereo, and aircon, and 4 electric windows, and decent enough room for 4 adults, but leave the bags at home. When accelerating, there is a constant pull, so it is much more comfortable for the passengers. There's also no revving engine, just a slight increase in the whirring sound. Very nice. The several people who walked out in front of it obviously couldn't hear it though:eek:. Which brings us onto the brakes. They were quite soft and indistinct, I couldn't get used to them at all. They may have been busy recharging the batteries when I was busy trying not to mow down pedestrians.

All in all, I was seriously impressed. Once they get the price of these down, it'll be an ideal car for short hops around the city / daily commuting.

Absurdum

any idea what kind of range you were able to get?

Motorcheck

I'm test driving the Renault ZE next week - really looking forward to it!

Boots2006

The guy in ESB was saying they're getting 100 miles or so from a full charge.
It had 60km remaining on it while I was driving ... we only did 3 or 4 km though, so hardly indicative.

What impressed me was the 30 minute fast charge (0% to 80% in 30 mins)

Drummerboy08

Hoping to get a spin in a Nissan Leaf in the coming weeks, should be interesting to say the least!

jaffa20

Nothing like a car so. I wouldn't be able to bear it.

Heroditas

Boots2006

look at the grin on his face

CarMuppet

jaffa20 wrote: »

Nothing like a car so. I wouldn't be able to bear it.

I agree. But these quiet electric cars will be like mobile phones. You'll be able to download an exhaust ring/drive tone. That crazy frog is bound to make a big comeback!

Paparazzo

Any idea of the price? Some of these electric cars are quite expensive. Not to mention horrible looking!

Heroditas

Paparazzo wrote: »

Any idea of the price? Some of these electric cars are quite expensive. Not to mention horrible looking!

The Leaf is expected to be around €29,000 - that's after the various subsidies.
Not particularly cheap!

Boots2006

yeah, hefty I believe, as in 2 or 3 times the normal car price. But give it time...

kasper

plus rental of the batteries after that

irisheddie85

Boots2006 wrote: »

The guy in ESB was saying they're getting 100 miles or so from a full charge.
It had 60km remaining on it while I was driving ... we only did 3 or 4 km though, so hardly indicative.

was that definatley 100 miles not kilometers? that would actually be usable

Paparazzo

Heroditas wrote: »

The Leaf is expected to be around €29,000 - that's after the various subsidies.
Not particularly cheap!

I also heard the fast charge system is usually a quite expensive extra too. And it'll be interesting to see what ncap rating it gets

CarMuppet

Paparazzo wrote: »

Any idea of the price? Some of these electric cars are quite expensive. Not to mention horrible looking!

I do remember visiting the Millenium Dome in London back in 2000/2001 and Ford had a display of their electric car of the future. Is was basically an electric Ford Focus. It was called the "Fussion". But it looks like they have used that name for a different car! An electric Focus wouldn't be bad. ... right?

Boots2006

yep, definitely 100 miles, we were talking about 80 mile trips (with the fast charge to 80% to get you back home after 1/2 an hour charging).

Heroditas

Watch the 100 mile range drop in winter when you have the heaters on in the cabin!

Drummerboy08

The Leaf is set at €29995 and that includes your battery lease.

Think about it. You could buy a new Focus for 21/22k or so? I go through €65 petrol per week, so thats €260 per month, and €3120 per year. Over three years thats €9360, or more than the difference in the outright cost. Not to mention no servicing costs.

I know that I would have to pay for the electricity but it wouldnt add up to anywhere near the 9 and a bit k I've spent on petrol and servicing the car.

Just a thought.

-Corkie-

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The Leaf is set at €29995 and that includes your battery lease.

Think about it. You could buy a new Focus for 21/22k or so? I go through €65 petrol per week, so thats €260 per month, and €3120 per year. Over three years thats €9360, or more than the difference in the outright cost. Not to mention no servicing costs.

I know that I would have to pay for the electricity but it wouldnt add up to anywhere near the 9 and a bit k I've spent on petrol and servicing the car.

Just a thought.

I have planning in for a wind turbine behind my house so something like this would work out very well. I think we are looking at 3 years before this comes on stream..

Paparazzo

Heroditas wrote: »

Watch the 100 mile range drop in winter when you have the heaters on in the cabin!

And doesn't the cold effect battery performance? I wonder what the real range will be in winter?
Air con in summer, lights on, radio on, heaters in winter, windscreen wipers. Will they effect range? After buying phones and other consumer electronics with batteries, I don't trust manufactures battery run times!

Heroditas

Paparazzo wrote: »

And doesn't the cold effect battery performance? I wonder what the real range will be in winter?
Air con in summer, lights on, radio on, heaters in winter, windscreen wipers. Will they effect range? After buying phones and other consumer electronics with batteries, I don't trust manufactures battery run times!

Exactly! Factor in the cost of having to charge it every day and you'll start to see the alleged advantage of buying one of these things over a petrol/diesel car frittered away fairly fast.

KamiKazi

I really hope electric motorbikes never become mainstream, they're hard enough to notice as they are, they'd be practically invisible with only a whirring motor.

jock101

Only one answer to plug in electric cars:(, Hydrogen Fuel Cell:D! Its the only hydrocarbon alternative!:) Lucky Honda is investing shred loads of cash in that technology and Govn. Arnie is forcing Filling station in California to provide at least one Hydrogen pump! Let hope we follow in 20 years!

Cookie_Monster

will it do 600km+ on a charge and go at 120kph+?

if not why even bother...

Berty

Remember, The idea of bringing in Electric car or Hydrogen fuel cars was not to make things cheaper for us, it was to enable us to have a mode of transport once we scorched the earth of non renewable sources of energy.

Im still not convinced by the electric cars. I would like somebody of some type of authority and without bias to tell me how much it would cost per week, month, year if I had to charge my car twice a day?

kasper

we will just have to build a nuclear power plant to feed our car

mb1725

The i-car! Suppose it had to happen! Maybe you could download the vuvuzela ring tone to warn off pedestrians!

Paparazzo

Berty wrote: »

Remember the idea of bringing in Electric car or Hydrogen fuel cars was not to make things cheaper for us, it was to enable us to have a mode of transport once we scorched the earth of non renewable sources of energy.

Im still not convinced by the electric cars. I would like somebody of some type of authority and without bias to tell me how much it would cost per week, month, year if I had to charge my car twice a day?

Bang on! I want to see a proper review in a car magazine, with someone that will give real figures on it. Not e-car magazine, or greenmachines or something with a greenparty sounding name thats obviouslly biased.

How much energy does it take for them to run? Most of out electricity is made from burning oil/gas anyway.

Heroditas

Berty wrote: »

I would like somebody of some type of authority and without bias to tell me how much it would cost per week, month, year if I had to charge my car twice a day?

According to THIS, the i MiEV has 47kW of power in a fully charged battery.

So you need to use 47 units of electricity to charge it .... at about 16c per unit, that's about €7.52

Charge the car 7 times a week from, say 50% to full, you'll spend about €26.

A Yaris will cost €52 to fill. A Yaris will easily do well over 300 miles in city traffic in all sorts of weather all year round.

bladebrew

the nissan leaf seems like a great idea,
its €29,995 after the goverment grant, i think the grant is €5000, 109bhp, 0-62mph in 11 secs, then the problem, the range is 100miles and it take 8 hours to charge, so cork to dublin would take near 3 hours+8 hours charge,
that is pointless,

Heroditas

bladebrew wrote: »

the nissan leaf seems like a great idea,
its €29,995 after the goverment grant, i think the grant is €5000, 109bhp, 0-62mph in 11 secs, then the problem, the range is 100miles and it take 8 hours to charge, so cork to dublin would take near 3 hours+8 hours charge,
that is pointless,

They're not supposed to compete with cars you'd use for inter-city driving.
They're to compete with the likes of the Yaris and Micra for popping around the city. However, a few back of the envelope calculations show that a Yaris or Micra is still far cheaper to run!

Paparazzo

Heroditas wrote: »

According to THIS, the i MiEV has 47kW of power in a fully charged battery.

So you need to use 47 units of electricity to charge it .... at about 16c per unit, that's about €7.52

Charge the car 7 times a week from, say 50% to full, you'll spend about €26.

A Yaris will cost €52 to fill. A Yaris will easily do well over 300 miles in city traffic in all sorts of weather all year round.

So if it wasn't for the massive tax we pay on petrol (think it's over 70%) the old petrol car would be cheaper to run? A 1.3 polo would give it a run for it's money!

Heroditas

Paparazzo wrote: »

So if it wasn't for the massive tax we pay on petrol (think it's over 70%) the old petrol car would be cheaper to run?

Certainly looks like it!

Paparazzo wrote: »

A 1.3 polo would give it a run for it's money!

It certainly does.
If you were to work a lot of the figures out properly, I'd say the difference in running a Polo and an electric car would be practically negligible.
Take away the subsidies and grants and the Polo will probably be streets ahead.


Here's a question, surely Eamon Ryan must own one at this stage. There's a charging point outside his department's offices and he's constantly whinging about how great electric cars are.

Has he got one yet?

bladebrew

Heroditas wrote: »

They're not supposed to compete with cars you'd use for inter-city driving.
They're to compete with the likes of the Yaris and Micra for popping around the city. However, a few back of the envelope calculations show that a Yaris or Micra is still far cheaper to run!

sorry i meant to say i spend most of my time driving in cork city, but i do drive to dublin a lot so for me personally it would not be of any use,

there is a guy in west cork with a tesla roadster, it dosent have the range to get to dublin but someone mentioned him on hwist after seeing it driving on the quays in dublin
he must have a friend halfway up the country:D

robdsherlock

what ever happened to the bio fuel idea??

seems to me like it defeats its own purpose and chance of actually taking off if it costs more to run a electric car as opposed to a internal combustion engine

dont think i will ever get used to a electric engine!!:(

Paparazzo

KamiKazi wrote: »

I really hope electric motorbikes never become mainstream, they're hard enough to notice as they are, they'd be practically invisible with only a whirring motor.

I was driving out from Dublin city to Rathfarnham and some guy was driving what looked like an ugly 250cc scooter. It was an electric bike!

x in the city

Boots2006 wrote: »

I think I've seen a glimpse of the future.

It was one of the test Mistubishi i-Miev cars. Totally electric, plug in, no engine.
http://www.esb.ie/main/sustainability/ESB-ecars-news-003.jsp

No ignition key, just keep the keyfob in your pocket. You get a few lights on the dash and a beep when you "start" it. Put the autobox in Drive, release the brake and it creeps off. Silent. Prodding the accelerator gives a nice smooth wave of power. As in very smooth, no gearchanges. You get the same wave of power at any speed. Its nippy enough around town, and the steering is really light, so its a doddle to park with its short overhangs at each end. We didn't get out on the open road, but I reckon it would be happiest around town.

Best thing was the silence and the lack of vibrations. It felt like a much bigger, more expensive car. There was a proper stereo, and aircon, and 4 electric windows, and decent enough room for 4 adults, but leave the bags at home. When accelerating, there is a constant pull, so it is much more comfortable for the passengers. There's also no revving engine, just a slight increase in the whirring sound. Very nice. The several people who walked out in front of it obviously couldn't hear it though:eek:. Which brings us onto the brakes. They were quite soft and indistinct, I couldn't get used to them at all. They may have been busy recharging the batteries when I was busy trying not to mow down pedestrians.

All in all, I was seriously impressed. Once they get the price of these down, it'll be an ideal car for short hops around the city / daily commuting.

Id prefer one of these

http://media.photobucket.com/image/850csi%20engine%20bay/M_Alx/Alx_BMW_850CSI_20070124_2.jpg

BrianD3

Watch the 100 mile range drop in winter when you have the heaters on in the cabin!

Don't know about the cars but the electric vans that I've seen have an oil burning heater. Like a small oil stove. The heater has its own exhaust so if you see an ecar with an exhaust and smoke coming out of it...

In terms of cost, if a driver was using most/all of the range every day and fuel prices at the pumps were to shoot up, then it could start to make some sense.

So high mileage drivers would benefit most - but a high mileage driver is hardly going to buy a car with a 100 mile range.

For those that own their own batteries, the battery replacement cost is huge and the batteries will need replacing at some point.

But in ten years time when there are charging points everywhere and EV technology/batteries have improved and if fossil fuel prices have shot up then we won't be laughing at the ecars

Mr Benevolent

bladebrew wrote: »

the nissan leaf seems like a great idea,
its €29,995 after the goverment grant, i think the grant is €5000, 109bhp, 0-62mph in 11 secs, then the problem, the range is 100miles and it take 8 hours to charge, so cork to dublin would take near 3 hours+8 hours charge,
that is pointless,

That's not the point. You might want to go to Cork, I don't. Not many people do The point is that the electric car will suit some people and not others. It'd suit me, I'd probably drive 20km to work and back and 60 km at the weekend. That's a week's worth of driving charged up in 8 hours. I don't go down the country.

skelliser

Why are is our gov. pushing ahead with an unproven technology?

Hydrogen fuel cells are just getting started and with the infasturcture already there, petrol stations, seems like a cheap pr stunt from the greens which will ultimatly cost us when every other manufacturer and country moves ahead with other tech.

Hogzy

Can anyone tell me why Hydrogen isnt being pursued more than Electric. After all Electricity is still produced in a non eco way.

I remember seeing this on top gear and being fairly impressed.

Hydrogen seems more ahead in terms of being more related to our normal petrol/diesel car which IMO will result in it selling more.

hobochris

Why don't they have hydrogen power stations to feed the network instead of hydrogen systems in each car.

They should devise a power feed system for along main routes such as motorways between Dublin,limerick,cork etc..

Heroditas

BrianD3 wrote: »

In terms of cost, if a driver was using most/all of the range every day and fuel prices at the pumps were to shoot up, then it could start to make some sense.

If fossil fuels go up in price, so will the price of electricity due to the fact that ~90% of our electricity is generated using fossil fuels.

Even if we get to 40% of renewable electricity, the electricity price will still be determined to a large extent by fossil fuels.

Oil goes up -> electricity goes up.

A perfect example is when people installed wood pellet CHP plants or boilers a few years ago to stop being dependent on oil. The only problem was that all the pellets were being imported so once oil went up in price, the pellets tracked its rise due to higher importation costs.

dynamick

In Ireland, the Nissan Leaf batteries will not be rented separately. This was confirmed by Nissan.
http://www.nissan.ie/new_vehicles/nissan-leaf/nissan-leaf.aspx

bladebrew wrote: »

the nissan leaf seems like a great idea,
its €29,995 after the goverment grant, i think the grant is €5000, 109bhp, 0-62mph in 11 secs, then the problem, the range is 100miles and it take 8 hours to charge, so cork to dublin would take near 3 hours+8 hours charge,
that is pointless,

Fast charging points will be every 60km on interurban routes. Having to stop for 30 mins on the way to cork isn't great but it is feasible if the journeys are rare. Let's not get carried away with the 8 hour charge exaggerations. ESB is putting in 1500 charging points by end of next year and the electricity is free for the next couple of years.

The idea is to use Ireland as a t6est bed for electric vehicle infrastructure to attract all the companies producing electric cars and their ancillary businesses (software/charging stations/maintenance). The massive grants and free power is a research investment. Will it pay back? who knows?

I expect electric cars will only be of interest to those urban drivers who make rare rural journeys. Perhaps it will take some of the urban second car / shopping car market. I think they're only expecting 5,000 evs to sell by end 2011. It's an experiment and it's probably not for you.

A phev seems more useful and similar price.

Cookie_Monster

Hogzy wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why Hydrogen isnt being pursued more than Electric.

because its just as expensive and unclean to produce as petrol, if not more so, it not like its just lying around waiting to be harvested...

unkel

Heroditas wrote: »

Watch the 100 mile range drop in winter when you have the heaters on in the cabin!

This is not an issue. Think about it. A very small student bedsit / bedroom can be kept warm with a 1kW electric heater. So it would take that or less to heat a car. So say you drive around for 3 hours with the heat on full blast - you'll use up 3kWh of the total of 50kWh in the battery. You'd barely notice the difference!

BrianD3

Heroditas wrote: »

If fossil fuels go up in price, so will the price of electricity due to the fact that ~90% of our electricity is generated using fossil fuels.

Even if we get to 40% of renewable electricity, the electricity price will still be determined to a large extent by fossil fuels.

Oil goes up -> electricity goes up.

A perfect example is when people installed wood pellet CHP plants or boilers a few years ago to stop being dependent on oil. The only problem was that all the pellets were being imported so once oil went up in price, the pellets tracked its rise due to higher importation costs.

Even if 100% of electricity was generated from fossil fuels, burning oil in a small number of power stations to generate electricity for cars is a much more efficient use of oil than burning it in several million car engines. If oil goes up in price, it would affect the day to day running cost of a petrol/diesel car more than it would affect the running cost of an EV. If it takes say, 5 gallons of oil burned in a power station to move an EV a certain distance and 10 gallons to move an internal combustion car the same distance and oil goes up by 50%, which vehicle is more affected?

A Primal Nut

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

will it do 600km+ on a charge and go at 120kph+?

if not why even bother...

Why; do you drive to Britain every day? Ireland isn't even 600km long.

The ideal situation would be like A Better Place in Israel. You wouldn't charge your battery. Instead you would stop at an electric "filling station" hand them your near-empty battery, they give you a full battery, and you pay for the electricity. The filling station then charge the battery and give it to someone else...and so on!

Thats the obvious way it will work in the future.

pajo1981

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Why; do you drive to Britain every day? Ireland isn't even 600km long.

The ideal situation would be like A Better Place in Israel. You wouldn't charge your battery. Instead you would stop at an electric "filling station" hand them your near-empty battery, they give you a full battery, and you pay for the electricity. The filling station then charge the battery and give it to someone else...and so on!

Thats the obvious way it will work in the future.

Isn't that the model renault were pushing?

A Primal Nut

skelliser wrote: »

Why are is our gov. pushing ahead with an unproven technology?

Hydrogen fuel cells are just getting started and with the infasturcture already there, petrol stations, seems like a cheap pr stunt from the greens which will ultimatly cost us when every other manufacturer and country moves ahead with other tech.

Don't you need electricity to split the hydrogen from water? This is more inefficent than electrical cars - the technology for hydrogen fuel cells isn't ready yet like it is for electrical care.

Hopefully people will wake up and we will start using Nuclear power as soon as possible because right now electrical cars aren't very clean as long as fossil fuels are used for electrical generation. Cleaner, yes but not clean enough and obviously when fossil fuels run out...even more useless