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Gilmore rules out coalition with FF and predicts winning a seat in every constituency

  • 21-07-2010 06:29PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0721/1224275147229.html?digest=1

    1) Do we really need a formal declaration of no coalition with FF?

    2) A candidate in every constituency? The man is delusional if he thinks Labour can pick up seats in small rural 3 seaters where Labour has never had a real presence. Cork North West springs to mind as one I'm familiar with where Labour have never broken 10% of the popular vote in the last 20 years and genuinely struggle to break the 5% mark in the past 10 years.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    1) Do we really need a formal declaration of no coalition with FF?

    Didn't the greens say somthing similar?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    The man is a delusional idiot. He should be grateful to hit 30 seats. People will grow up closer to election time and realise that FG and Labour only ever criticise and are afraid of saying specifically what they would have done different. Labour would either have gone hard left (Which would have made this economic crash look like a picnic) or done the exact same thing as FF, which is what I suspect FG would have done anyway. Irish politics really is a cesspit, full of one group of deceitful idiots pulling the wool over the eyes of the people (Who are all to willing to be deceived and lied to.)

    Only Sinn Féin are without economic blame in this country, both because they consistently endorsed a different system and because they never stood realistic chance of political power. Now thats a real sad state of affairs. :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Didn't the greens say somthing similar?

    His exact quote gives a lot less wiggle room than the Green statement:

    “I want to be absolutely clear. I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about this. Fianna Fáil must be put out of government at the next election.”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 718 ✭✭✭dynamick


    The Irish Times article is misleadingly titled. Gilmore has not ruled out coalition with FF. He has expressed a preference for FG and stated that FF 'must' go.
    I want to be absolutely clear. I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about this. Fianna Fáil must be put out of government at the next election
    If he wanted to be unambiguous he would just say that Labour won't coalesce with FF under any circumstances. Also he would make a joint manifesto with FG.

    Paddy Power are today offering 5/1 on a FF/Lab coaltion. I think these are good odds and worth a punt as Gilmore will go in with FF if he is offered taoiseach. FF is more left wing than FG and in truth better suited to Labour.

    FF will probably do 60 seats and Labour 35.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23 Gravy Fanatic


    Ah sure the soldiers are too good for that boy and them reds, they wouldnt want to. Sure the electorate mad and all of that now, but sure they'll only be returning to the boys in a few months when they see things will be pickin up again.

    Labour are just trying to reap in their moment of glory, because they know theyll probably never have it again. The boys will be back soon enough ill bet you.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Ah sure the soldiers are too good for that boy and them reds, they wouldnt want to. Sure the electorate mad and all of that now, but sure they'll only be returning to the boys in a few months when they see things will be pickin up again.

    Labour are just trying to reap in their moment of glory, because they know theyll probably never have it again. The boys will be back soon enough ill bet you.

    Stop going on about the boys. All the boys are idiots in equal measure. That includes the delusional Gilmore.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    nesf wrote: »
    1) Do we really need a formal declaration of no coalition with FF?

    Yes. I got duped by The Greens and I've no intention of falling for the same trick again.
    dynamick wrote: »
    Paddy Power are today offering 5/1 on a FF/Lab coaltion.

    OK - who does that leave available for me to vote for, then ?

    I reckon (or maybe hope) this is a sneaky hatchet job to damage the level of support that Labour are getting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23 Gravy Fanatic


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Yes. I got duped by The Greens and I've no intention of falling for the same trick again.



    OK - who does that leave available for me to vote for, then ?

    I reckon (or maybe hope) this is a sneaky hatchet job to damage the level of support that Labour are getting.

    We all got duped by them greens let me tell you, but it wont be happening again cause they kiss goodbye to their last coalition. Sure look at the state of the place now.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Sure look at the state of the place now.

    ah sure would you quit, would you quit. Its a bloody disgrace, a bloody disgrace! rabble rabble rabble


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    @nesf
    His exact quote gives a lot less wiggle room than the Green statement:

    “I want to be absolutely clear. I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about this. Fianna Fáil must be put out of government at the next election.”

    Im impressed - its the closest thing to a political principle Ive seen Gilmore issue. Other than he is against "unfairness" and for "the most vulnerable in society".

    That said it does leave room for maneuvere - FF might rebrand themselves as the Soldiers of Destiny, or Gilmore might argue that whilst he votes with Fianna Fail and sits in cabinet it is on the basis of a national emergency, not in a normal government. The Greens have set incredibly low standards, which is quite impressive - even Fianna Fail arent as two faced as the Greens.

    I dont know with Labour - theyre definitly not idealogically suited for the current battle which will mean taking on powerful vested interests inside the state/public sector. They are far too closely connected with the public sector unions to be trusted with representing the taxpayers in renegotiating the social contract - theyre idealogically hostile to the taxpayer in fact, viewing us as some sort of cash cow to be milked to buy votes in their favourite constituencies in the trade unions and the various hard luck stories. Wage hikes for everyone. Boom level social transfers for everyone. In their own way, Labour are perhaps the most conservitive party in Ireland. They know how to grease the wheels.

    However, Fine Gael have thrown away the opportunity to define themselves by endorsing Enda Kennys leadership - whereas Bruton could have leveraged his leadership on new and younger members bringing fresh leadership to the country, Kenny's victory and the very bitter/parochial nature of his victory has advertised only more of the same sort of cute whoorism/up mayo! ****e. Kenny thinks his turn has come, and hes going to be the one up on the back of a lorry belting out the Mayo Rover to a crowd of adoring peasants next time out.

    I think the window for a serious revolutionary change in the Irish state and Irish democracy is closed. The insiders, be they in Labour or Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, the banks and the public sector are definitly in power. New voices will not be heard this time out. Theres not a whole lot of point in going to the polls - Fianna Fail will definitly be beaten out, the Greens will become extinct, the same sort of populist politics will continue, be it under Kenny's cute whoorism or Gilmore's Bertie impression.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    nesf wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0721/1224275147229.html?digest=1

    1) Do we really need a formal declaration of no coalition with FF?

    I'd like a formal declaration of what Labour actually stands for. You know, a policy document of some kind. I believe articulating one's policies, and taking a clear position on important issues, is a trend in other political systems, and even amongst other Irish political parties, and one perhaps that Labour might one day decide to emulate. Until then, anything Gilmore os Rabbitte say is really only so much political posturing.
    We all got duped by them greens let me tell you, but it wont be happening again cause they kiss goodbye to their last coalition. Sure look at the state of the place now.

    I'm not so sure about the oft stated impending demise of the Greens as a political force. They'll take a bit of a hammering sure, although they might be aided if there is any bit of an upturn in the next two years, but more importantly, they have a core constituency. Admittedly, it's been chipped away somewhat over the past few years, but unlike the PDs who had no comparably committed base, I think the Greens will continue to have the support of small, but crucial, proportion of the electorate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    Denerick wrote: »
    The man is a delusional idiot. He should be grateful to hit 30 seats.

    I think you may be surprised come the next election, alot of people have talked in the past about not voting FF at the next election etc but this time i think it really will be different.

    I voted FF every time i've went near a voting booth since i was 18 but not anymore.

    The definition of madness comes to mind...... doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    So vote FF in for the bulk of another 25 years and we can surely expect to stare bankruptcy in the face again!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    changes wrote: »
    I think you may be surprised come the next election, alot of people have talked in the past about not voting FF at the next election etc but this time i think it really will be different.

    I voted FF every time i've went near a voting booth since i was 18 but not anymore.

    The definition of madness comes to mind...... doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    So vote FF in for the bulk of another 25 years and we can surely expect to stare bankruptcy in the face again!!!


    I agree to an extent but I think people will vote for Fine Gael rather than Labour


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Essexboy


    Labour has split over the choice of candidate in Sligo -North Leitrim, and Pat Rabbitte had already kicked out the party's only member to be elected as TD, Declan Bree.

    Along with Cork North West and the Donegal constituencies, no joy there for Gilmore.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,952 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Einhard wrote: »
    I'd like a formal declaration of what Labour actually stands for. You know, a policy document of some kind. .

    LOL. Why dont you have a look at their website then?? In a similar vein have FF, FG od=r Greens come up with any formal declarations lately on what they stand for??? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Why dont you have a look at their website then??

    I have looked at their website, and I have looked at all their policies. I found a lot of issues with them, and I mentioned these on Boards.ie

    No one responded.

    Later on, one poster said that I wasn't worth responding to because I was "clearly anti-Labour" or something. Red herring. There seems to be a reluctance amongst Labour folk to get into economic detail.
    In a similar vein have FF, FG od=r Greens come up with any formal declarations lately on what they stand for???

    So Fianna Fail incompetency justifies Labour incompetency?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    They can certainly aim for a TD in every constituency, nothing wrong with setting lofty goals.

    In our area, there hasn't been a Labour TD since the 1980's and the same Labour candidate got beaten 3 times in a row in general elections
    She is high profile though so may get another go.

    Labour certainly are strong in many cities. Rural areas are different with a few exceptions.
    And even if other party has a meltdown I still can't see a Labour TD getting elected.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,952 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    I have looked at their website, and I have looked at all their policies. I found a lot of issues with them, and I mentioned these on Boards.ie

    Fair enough but he poster i was replying to wanted to know why they hadnt any policy documentswhen clearly they have, whether you disagree with them or not.

    [quote}So Fianna Fail incompetency justifies Labour incompetency?[/QUOTE]

    Of course not. I merel asked the poster why he wasnt looking for similar response from the other parties.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    So Fianna Fail incompetency justifies Labour incompetency?

    What does "what they stand for" have to do with whether or not they're competent ?

    We know (anecdotally) what FF stand for, but they'd be incompetent on top of that regardless of whether or not it's listed on their website.

    Likewise, Labour could well be incompetent, or not, regardless of what they stand for or what's listed on their website.

    We'll find out in time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    LOL. Why dont you have a look at their website then?? In a similar vein have FF, FG od=r Greens come up with any formal declarations lately on what they stand for??? :rolleyes:

    Actually, FG have come out with a whole raft of policy documents in recent months. I mightn't agree with them on every issue, but I can appreciate their honesty in putting their policies to the people. Labour on the other hand, seem to think it's enough to condemn every initiative of the present administration, without offering alternatives of their own. Their strategy basically boils down to "Vote for us. We're not FF". Which unfortunately, given the political engagement and maturity of the electorate in this country will probably be enough.

    Incidentally, I took you up on the offer to check their site for policies. It confirms my case. Thanks.

    Their document on education is not so much one of policy as of proposals. It's a measly two pages, most of which is taken up by graphics. There's no costing, no new initiatives, nothing.

    Of the other 9 documents, three are basically the same, relating to inquiry powers and committees. On health, perhaps the most important and pressing of issues facing any new government, Labour have no conrete proposals. All they offer is a press release on the desireability of universal coverage. And nothing on how it might be achieved, how much it might cost. In fact, nothing at all beyond vague and empty platitudes.

    They have no strategy on water charges. They have no economic strategy, beyond that of creating jobs, and even there, they have no concrete, achievable proposals. They outline none of the cuts or tax hikes they might have to implement. It's ridiculous. I actually feel somewhat insulted that anyone would seek my vote with such a paucity of policy proposals.
    Likewise, Labour could well be incompetent, or not, regardless of what they stand for or what's listed on their website.

    We'll find out in time.

    Well I don't think it's too much to ask that a party seeking a mandate from the elctorate to implement thier own ideas and reform, actually let us know what exactly their policies are. It's not really so much to ask is it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭kenco


    43 constituencies
    at least 3 they have no hopes of getting a seat in
    They might if they are clever and manage the votes (big if) get two in some urban 5 seaters but this again would be more than 3 of same

    43 is the absolute best they would do and that would be everything falling into place. More likely to be mid to high 30s as they wont take the chance on two candidates in most of the constituncies as they dont have the machine or the nous the FF had/have (vote management wise)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    kenco wrote: »
    they dont have the machine or the nous the FF had/have (vote management wise)

    Hopefully that "machine" will finally have been laid to rest after all the corruption, incompetence and downright unfair goings-on since the last election, added to the stuff that people seemed to ignore when they voted last time.

    I don't think we can un-brainwash the 20% (unfortunately) or remove their blinkers, but hopefully there'll be enough ethical voters (along with ethical and competent candidates) this time around to make sure it doesn't happen again.

    Labour need to say what they're going to do re the unions (in particular the self-serving, overpaid union leaders) and the public service before they'll be taken on board by most, but if they do this, combined with Gilmore's statement and FG's own-goal, they'll be in with a good shot of being the #1 party in the country.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Liam Byrne wrote: »

    Labour need to say what they're going to do re the unions (in particular the self-serving, overpaid union leaders) and the public service before they'll be taken on board by most, but if they do this, combined with Gilmore's statement and FG's own-goal, they'll be in with a good shot of being the #1 party in the country.

    I don't think Labour are realistically in with a chance of overtaking FF or FG. The fact is, they're too beholden to the unions to draw widespread support across the electorate, and were they to cut their ties with the unions, they'd lose support from that constituency. Also, unlike in the UK, a good few of the Labour big-hitters are genuine, old style socialists, and unlikely to water this down for any New Labour type rebranding which would be necessary to appeal to enough of the electorate for a plurality to be achieved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Einhard wrote: »
    I don't think Labour are realistically in with a chance of overtaking FF or FG.

    If they can't overtake FF after everything that shower have done to this country, then it's a bad state of affairs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Hopefully that "machine" will finally have been laid to rest after all the corruption, incompetence and downright unfair goings-on since the last election, added to the stuff that people seemed to ignore when they voted last time.

    No matter what you can lash FF with deservedly, they are by far the most efficient party at local Cumann level. Other parties could learn something from them.
    Every town in Ireland has a FF cumann, remember they were once the party of the laborer and small farmer. Or claimed to be...
    To be fair they did good work with social housing in the 1930's but that's ancient history now

    Now I'm aware they pissed off a lot of potential candidates as they had to be approved by Dublin HQ and then they left and went independent.
    No matter what party you are in, if Dublin HQ parachutes a candidate into your area you'd be raging if you were a local and worked hard to get considered.

    FF have a core vote, it will never change.
    And I confidently predict FF will trounce Labour in the next general election.
    Now I'm in a rural area with no Labour TD or tradition but I cannot see Labour overtake FF, I just can't see it.

    I vote FG before you flame me


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    If they can't overtake FF after everything that shower have done to this country, then it's a bad state of affairs.

    Sorry, let me re-phrase that- I don't believe Labour will overtake both FG and FF to become the biggest party. They may well supplant FF, at least in the short term. However, peoples' memories tend to be short, and minds receptive to good news, so if there's good news on the economic front before the next election, I wouldn't be surprised to see FF's figures improve somewhat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    I vote FG before you flame me

    I don't flame people. I might post in astonishment at some of the views posted here, but I don't flame.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Not aimed at you Liam, people do get defensive here.
    Sometimes if you post a comment, you know the response you'll get

    And even you'll admit, FF are very, very well organized at Cumann level.
    As the Americans say "they get the vote out", FG and Labour could learn a lot from them

    Realy Sinn Fein is a small party and they are the only ones I've seen with similar and good organization at local level
    Might get feck all votes (no votes from me!) but they put the effort in and work hard


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    And even you'll admit, FF are very, very well organized at Cumann level.

    Indeed. But surely no level of organisation will make people forget what they've been up to for the last number of years, or the state they've led the country into ?

    If it does, it'll be time to emigrate, because there'll be no hope for this country.


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