Gilmore rules out coalition with FF and predicts winning a seat in every constituency

nesf

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0721/1224275147229.html?digest=1

1) Do we really need a formal declaration of no coalition with FF?

2) A candidate in every constituency? The man is delusional if he thinks Labour can pick up seats in small rural 3 seaters where Labour has never had a real presence. Cork North West springs to mind as one I'm familiar with where Labour have never broken 10% of the popular vote in the last 20 years and genuinely struggle to break the 5% mark in the past 10 years.

Wolfe Tone

1) Do we really need a formal declaration of no coalition with FF?

Didn't the greens say somthing similar?

Denerick

The man is a delusional idiot. He should be grateful to hit 30 seats. People will grow up closer to election time and realise that FG and Labour only ever criticise and are afraid of saying specifically what they would have done different. Labour would either have gone hard left (Which would have made this economic crash look like a picnic) or done the exact same thing as FF, which is what I suspect FG would have done anyway. Irish politics really is a cesspit, full of one group of deceitful idiots pulling the wool over the eyes of the people (Who are all to willing to be deceived and lied to.)

Only Sinn Féin are without economic blame in this country, both because they consistently endorsed a different system and because they never stood realistic chance of political power. Now thats a real sad state of affairs.

nesf

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Didn't the greens say somthing similar?

His exact quote gives a lot less wiggle room than the Green statement:

“I want to be absolutely clear. I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about this. Fianna Fáil must be put out of government at the next election.”

dynamick

The Irish Times article is misleadingly titled. Gilmore has not ruled out coalition with FF. He has expressed a preference for FG and stated that FF 'must' go.

I want to be absolutely clear. I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about this. Fianna Fáil must be put out of government at the next election

If he wanted to be unambiguous he would just say that Labour won't coalesce with FF under any circumstances. Also he would make a joint manifesto with FG.

Paddy Power are today offering 5/1 on a FF/Lab coaltion. I think these are good odds and worth a punt as Gilmore will go in with FF if he is offered taoiseach. FF is more left wing than FG and in truth better suited to Labour.

FF will probably do 60 seats and Labour 35.

Gravy Fanatic

Ah sure the soldiers are too good for that boy and them reds, they wouldnt want to. Sure the electorate mad and all of that now, but sure they'll only be returning to the boys in a few months when they see things will be pickin up again.

Labour are just trying to reap in their moment of glory, because they know theyll probably never have it again. The boys will be back soon enough ill bet you.

Denerick

Gravy Fanatic wrote: »

Ah sure the soldiers are too good for that boy and them reds, they wouldnt want to. Sure the electorate mad and all of that now, but sure they'll only be returning to the boys in a few months when they see things will be pickin up again.

Labour are just trying to reap in their moment of glory, because they know theyll probably never have it again. The boys will be back soon enough ill bet you.

Stop going on about the boys. All the boys are idiots in equal measure. That includes the delusional Gilmore.

Liam Byrne

nesf wrote: »

1) Do we really need a formal declaration of no coalition with FF?

Yes. I got duped by The Greens and I've no intention of falling for the same trick again.

dynamick wrote: »

Paddy Power are today offering 5/1 on a FF/Lab coaltion.

OK - who does that leave available for me to vote for, then ?

I reckon (or maybe hope) this is a sneaky hatchet job to damage the level of support that Labour are getting.

Gravy Fanatic

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Yes. I got duped by The Greens and I've no intention of falling for the same trick again.



OK - who does that leave available for me to vote for, then ?

I reckon (or maybe hope) this is a sneaky hatchet job to damage the level of support that Labour are getting.

We all got duped by them greens let me tell you, but it wont be happening again cause they kiss goodbye to their last coalition. Sure look at the state of the place now.

Denerick

Gravy Fanatic wrote: »

Sure look at the state of the place now.

ah sure would you quit, would you quit. Its a bloody disgrace, a bloody disgrace! rabble rabble rabble

Sand

@nesf

His exact quote gives a lot less wiggle room than the Green statement:

“I want to be absolutely clear. I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about this. Fianna Fáil must be put out of government at the next election.”

Im impressed - its the closest thing to a political principle Ive seen Gilmore issue. Other than he is against "unfairness" and for "the most vulnerable in society".

That said it does leave room for maneuvere - FF might rebrand themselves as the Soldiers of Destiny, or Gilmore might argue that whilst he votes with Fianna Fail and sits in cabinet it is on the basis of a national emergency, not in a normal government. The Greens have set incredibly low standards, which is quite impressive - even Fianna Fail arent as two faced as the Greens.

I dont know with Labour - theyre definitly not idealogically suited for the current battle which will mean taking on powerful vested interests inside the state/public sector. They are far too closely connected with the public sector unions to be trusted with representing the taxpayers in renegotiating the social contract - theyre idealogically hostile to the taxpayer in fact, viewing us as some sort of cash cow to be milked to buy votes in their favourite constituencies in the trade unions and the various hard luck stories. Wage hikes for everyone. Boom level social transfers for everyone. In their own way, Labour are perhaps the most conservitive party in Ireland. They know how to grease the wheels.

However, Fine Gael have thrown away the opportunity to define themselves by endorsing Enda Kennys leadership - whereas Bruton could have leveraged his leadership on new and younger members bringing fresh leadership to the country, Kenny's victory and the very bitter/parochial nature of his victory has advertised only more of the same sort of cute whoorism/up mayo! ****e. Kenny thinks his turn has come, and hes going to be the one up on the back of a lorry belting out the Mayo Rover to a crowd of adoring peasants next time out.

I think the window for a serious revolutionary change in the Irish state and Irish democracy is closed. The insiders, be they in Labour or Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, the banks and the public sector are definitly in power. New voices will not be heard this time out. Theres not a whole lot of point in going to the polls - Fianna Fail will definitly be beaten out, the Greens will become extinct, the same sort of populist politics will continue, be it under Kenny's cute whoorism or Gilmore's Bertie impression.

Einhard

nesf wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0721/1224275147229.html?digest=1

1) Do we really need a formal declaration of no coalition with FF?

I'd like a formal declaration of what Labour actually stands for. You know, a policy document of some kind. I believe articulating one's policies, and taking a clear position on important issues, is a trend in other political systems, and even amongst other Irish political parties, and one perhaps that Labour might one day decide to emulate. Until then, anything Gilmore os Rabbitte say is really only so much political posturing.

Gravy Fanatic wrote: »

We all got duped by them greens let me tell you, but it wont be happening again cause they kiss goodbye to their last coalition. Sure look at the state of the place now.

I'm not so sure about the oft stated impending demise of the Greens as a political force. They'll take a bit of a hammering sure, although they might be aided if there is any bit of an upturn in the next two years, but more importantly, they have a core constituency. Admittedly, it's been chipped away somewhat over the past few years, but unlike the PDs who had no comparably committed base, I think the Greens will continue to have the support of small, but crucial, proportion of the electorate.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

changes

Denerick wrote: »

The man is a delusional idiot. He should be grateful to hit 30 seats.

I think you may be surprised come the next election, alot of people have talked in the past about not voting FF at the next election etc but this time i think it really will be different.

I voted FF every time i've went near a voting booth since i was 18 but not anymore.

The definition of madness comes to mind...... doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

So vote FF in for the bulk of another 25 years and we can surely expect to stare bankruptcy in the face again!!!

Bottle_of_Smoke

changes wrote: »

I think you may be surprised come the next election, alot of people have talked in the past about not voting FF at the next election etc but this time i think it really will be different.

I voted FF every time i've went near a voting booth since i was 18 but not anymore.

The definition of madness comes to mind...... doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

So vote FF in for the bulk of another 25 years and we can surely expect to stare bankruptcy in the face again!!!

I agree to an extent but I think people will vote for Fine Gael rather than Labour

Essexboy

Labour has split over the choice of candidate in Sligo -North Leitrim, and Pat Rabbitte had already kicked out the party's only member to be elected as TD, Declan Bree.

Along with Cork North West and the Donegal constituencies, no joy there for Gilmore.

Coillte_Bhoy

Einhard wrote: »

I'd like a formal declaration of what Labour actually stands for. You know, a policy document of some kind. .

LOL. Why dont you have a look at their website then?? In a similar vein have FF, FG od=r Greens come up with any formal declarations lately on what they stand for??? :rolleyes:

Eliot Rosewater

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Why dont you have a look at their website then??

I have looked at their website, and I have looked at all their policies. I found a lot of issues with them, and I mentioned these on Boards.ie

No one responded.

Later on, one poster said that I wasn't worth responding to because I was "clearly anti-Labour" or something. Red herring. There seems to be a reluctance amongst Labour folk to get into economic detail.

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

In a similar vein have FF, FG od=r Greens come up with any formal declarations lately on what they stand for???

So Fianna Fail incompetency justifies Labour incompetency?

mikemac

They can certainly aim for a TD in every constituency, nothing wrong with setting lofty goals.

In our area, there hasn't been a Labour TD since the 1980's and the same Labour candidate got beaten 3 times in a row in general elections
She is high profile though so may get another go.

Labour certainly are strong in many cities. Rural areas are different with a few exceptions.
And even if other party has a meltdown I still can't see a Labour TD getting elected.

Coillte_Bhoy

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I have looked at their website, and I have looked at all their policies. I found a lot of issues with them, and I mentioned these on Boards.ie

Fair enough but he poster i was replying to wanted to know why they hadnt any policy documentswhen clearly they have, whether you disagree with them or not.

[quote}So Fianna Fail incompetency justifies Labour incompetency?[/QUOTE]

Of course not. I merel asked the poster why he wasnt looking for similar response from the other parties.

Liam Byrne

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

So Fianna Fail incompetency justifies Labour incompetency?

What does "what they stand for" have to do with whether or not they're competent ?

We know (anecdotally) what FF stand for, but they'd be incompetent on top of that regardless of whether or not it's listed on their website.

Likewise, Labour could well be incompetent, or not, regardless of what they stand for or what's listed on their website.

We'll find out in time.

Einhard

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

LOL. Why dont you have a look at their website then?? In a similar vein have FF, FG od=r Greens come up with any formal declarations lately on what they stand for??? :rolleyes:

Actually, FG have come out with a whole raft of policy documents in recent months. I mightn't agree with them on every issue, but I can appreciate their honesty in putting their policies to the people. Labour on the other hand, seem to think it's enough to condemn every initiative of the present administration, without offering alternatives of their own. Their strategy basically boils down to "Vote for us. We're not FF". Which unfortunately, given the political engagement and maturity of the electorate in this country will probably be enough.

Incidentally, I took you up on the offer to check their site for policies. It confirms my case. Thanks.

Their document on education is not so much one of policy as of proposals. It's a measly two pages, most of which is taken up by graphics. There's no costing, no new initiatives, nothing.

Of the other 9 documents, three are basically the same, relating to inquiry powers and committees. On health, perhaps the most important and pressing of issues facing any new government, Labour have no conrete proposals. All they offer is a press release on the desireability of universal coverage. And nothing on how it might be achieved, how much it might cost. In fact, nothing at all beyond vague and empty platitudes.

They have no strategy on water charges. They have no economic strategy, beyond that of creating jobs, and even there, they have no concrete, achievable proposals. They outline none of the cuts or tax hikes they might have to implement. It's ridiculous. I actually feel somewhat insulted that anyone would seek my vote with such a paucity of policy proposals.

Likewise, Labour could well be incompetent, or not, regardless of what they stand for or what's listed on their website.

We'll find out in time.

Well I don't think it's too much to ask that a party seeking a mandate from the elctorate to implement thier own ideas and reform, actually let us know what exactly their policies are. It's not really so much to ask is it?

kenco

43 constituencies
at least 3 they have no hopes of getting a seat in
They might if they are clever and manage the votes (big if) get two in some urban 5 seaters but this again would be more than 3 of same

43 is the absolute best they would do and that would be everything falling into place. More likely to be mid to high 30s as they wont take the chance on two candidates in most of the constituncies as they dont have the machine or the nous the FF had/have (vote management wise)

Liam Byrne

kenco wrote: »

they dont have the machine or the nous the FF had/have (vote management wise)

Hopefully that "machine" will finally have been laid to rest after all the corruption, incompetence and downright unfair goings-on since the last election, added to the stuff that people seemed to ignore when they voted last time.

I don't think we can un-brainwash the 20% (unfortunately) or remove their blinkers, but hopefully there'll be enough ethical voters (along with ethical and competent candidates) this time around to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Labour need to say what they're going to do re the unions (in particular the self-serving, overpaid union leaders) and the public service before they'll be taken on board by most, but if they do this, combined with Gilmore's statement and FG's own-goal, they'll be in with a good shot of being the #1 party in the country.

Einhard

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Labour need to say what they're going to do re the unions (in particular the self-serving, overpaid union leaders) and the public service before they'll be taken on board by most, but if they do this, combined with Gilmore's statement and FG's own-goal, they'll be in with a good shot of being the #1 party in the country.

I don't think Labour are realistically in with a chance of overtaking FF or FG. The fact is, they're too beholden to the unions to draw widespread support across the electorate, and were they to cut their ties with the unions, they'd lose support from that constituency. Also, unlike in the UK, a good few of the Labour big-hitters are genuine, old style socialists, and unlikely to water this down for any New Labour type rebranding which would be necessary to appeal to enough of the electorate for a plurality to be achieved.

Liam Byrne

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think Labour are realistically in with a chance of overtaking FF or FG.

If they can't overtake FF after everything that shower have done to this country, then it's a bad state of affairs.

mikemac

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hopefully that "machine" will finally have been laid to rest after all the corruption, incompetence and downright unfair goings-on since the last election, added to the stuff that people seemed to ignore when they voted last time.

No matter what you can lash FF with deservedly, they are by far the most efficient party at local Cumann level. Other parties could learn something from them.
Every town in Ireland has a FF cumann, remember they were once the party of the laborer and small farmer. Or claimed to be...
To be fair they did good work with social housing in the 1930's but that's ancient history now

Now I'm aware they pissed off a lot of potential candidates as they had to be approved by Dublin HQ and then they left and went independent.
No matter what party you are in, if Dublin HQ parachutes a candidate into your area you'd be raging if you were a local and worked hard to get considered.

FF have a core vote, it will never change.
And I confidently predict FF will trounce Labour in the next general election.
Now I'm in a rural area with no Labour TD or tradition but I cannot see Labour overtake FF, I just can't see it.

I vote FG before you flame me

Einhard

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If they can't overtake FF after everything that shower have done to this country, then it's a bad state of affairs.

Sorry, let me re-phrase that- I don't believe Labour will overtake both FG and FF to become the biggest party. They may well supplant FF, at least in the short term. However, peoples' memories tend to be short, and minds receptive to good news, so if there's good news on the economic front before the next election, I wouldn't be surprised to see FF's figures improve somewhat.

Liam Byrne

feelingstressed wrote: »

I vote FG before you flame me

I don't flame people. I might post in astonishment at some of the views posted here, but I don't flame.

mikemac

Not aimed at you Liam, people do get defensive here.
Sometimes if you post a comment, you know the response you'll get

And even you'll admit, FF are very, very well organized at Cumann level.
As the Americans say "they get the vote out", FG and Labour could learn a lot from them

Realy Sinn Fein is a small party and they are the only ones I've seen with similar and good organization at local level
Might get feck all votes (no votes from me!) but they put the effort in and work hard

Liam Byrne

feelingstressed wrote: »

And even you'll admit, FF are very, very well organized at Cumann level.

Indeed. But surely no level of organisation will make people forget what they've been up to for the last number of years, or the state they've led the country into ?

If it does, it'll be time to emigrate, because there'll be no hope for this country.

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hopefully that "machine" will finally have been laid to rest after all the corruption, incompetence and downright unfair goings-on since the last election, added to the stuff that people seemed to ignore when they voted last time.

I don't think we can un-brainwash the 20% (unfortunately) or remove their blinkers, but hopefully there'll be enough ethical voters (along with ethical and competent candidates) this time around to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Labour need to say what they're going to do re the unions (in particular the self-serving, overpaid union leaders) and the public service before they'll be taken on board by most, but if they do this, combined with Gilmore's statement and FG's own-goal, they'll be in with a good shot of being the #1 party in the country.

Are you Liam claiming that the people of Ireland were brainwashed. By the party machine or was it individual FF'ers. Why can't people just accept the democratic wishes of the people rather than using soundbites. It's too easy to say that the last election was fought on brainwashing. The reasons are more complex. Also, for a man that doesn't claim to bash, you're not very convincing, are you?

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

Why can't people just accept the democratic wishes of the people rather than using soundbites. It's too easy to say that the last election was fought on brainwashing.

There are 20% that will vote FF regardless of what the hell they do.

Those the ones I was referring to.

Yes, the same applies to other parties, but the fact is that those parties haven't ruined the country and condoned corruption, so there hasn't been as much to rock that blind allegiance.

Denerick

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There are 20% that will vote FF regardless of what the hell they do.

Those the ones I was referring to.

Yes, the same applies to other parties, but the fact is that those parties haven't ruined the country and condoned corruption, so there hasn't been as much to rock that blind allegiance.

Fine Gael would have done the same in power. This circus is very boring at this stage.

'FF ruined the country lads!'

'Fecking bastards'

'rabble rabble rabble'

'Its ****e so it is'

'rabble rabble rabble'.

Make your own combination.

Liam Byrne

Denerick wrote: »

Fine Gael would have done the same in power.

Prove it.

Denerick wrote: »

'FF ruined the country lads!'

'Fecking bastards'

'rabble rabble rabble'

'Its ****e so it is'

'rabble rabble rabble'.

Make your own combination.

No need. What you've said above is spot-on and covers all the facts.

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There are 20% that will vote FF regardless of what the hell they do.

Those the ones I was referring to.

Yes, the same applies to other parties, but the fact is that those parties haven't ruined the country and condoned corruption, so there hasn't been as much to rock that blind allegiance.

Are we selective again? No mention of brainwashing or bashing.

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

Are we selective again? No mention of brainwashing or bashing.

They're brainwashed / blindly loyal and don't look at the alternatives, so that's that already covered.

Stating facts isn't "bashing".

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

They're brainwashed / blindly loyal and don't look at the alternatives, so that's that already covered.

Stating facts isn't "bashing".

Prove they are brainwashed and don't look at the alternatives. Why not state facts regarding another party re phone license.

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

Prove they are brainwashed and don't look at the alternatives.

Just have a look around here at people who are "staunch FF", etc.

Wide Road wrote: »

Why not state facts regarding another party re phone license.

Because unless that's Labour, it's off-topic. Feel free to start a thread about it.

ANXIOUS

I'm am fully of the beleif that, labour knew that ff wouldn't want to go in to goverment with them. Labour are happy to plod along at the moment with ff/gn parties making the tough decisions they know aren't popular with the voters.

Labour are spoofers of the highest order, having spoke to gilmore. I found that he was more about laying the blame than finding a solution.

Having a pint with my favourite former taoiseach if anyone is in the area.

Eliot Rosewater

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Fair enough but he poster i was replying to wanted to know why they hadnt any policy documentswhen clearly they have, whether you disagree with them or not.

In fairness, just because they have a number of policy documents doesn't mean they have coherent and comprehensive policies. Labour have a policy document on the economy, but this doesn't about to anything comprehensive and/or coherent.

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Of course not. I merel asked the poster why he wasnt looking for similar response from the other parties.

Because it's a thread about the Labour Party?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What does "what they stand for" have to do with whether or not they're competent ?

A party that is unwilling to cut social welfare and desires to increase public sector pay in a recession is not competent enough to govern, in my opinion.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If they can't overtake FF after everything that shower have done to this country, then it's a bad state of affairs.

It's not really. Just because FF are horrendously bad does not mean Labour are any better. When it comes to casting my ballot it looks like I'll be sticking FF above Labour. Much as I want to punish FF, voting in a trade union riddled party would only be cutting off my nose to spite my face. Cuts need to be made and Labour are simply not the party who will make them.

mikemac

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There are 20% that will vote FF regardless of what the hell they do.

Those the ones I was referring to.

Yes, the same applies to other parties, but the fact is that those parties haven't ruined the country and condoned corruption, so there hasn't been as much to rock that blind allegiance.

Compactly correct, "every party has vote until they die" supporters but FF are masters. I'll tip my hat, for all their sins they are organized.

That 20% voting block exists and will never go away, not in the next 20 years, people will vote FF and will not countenance any responsibility

Now FF are not alone, FG and to a lesser extent Labour have the very same but really, FF to their credit are masters at organization and have cumanns everywhere.
FG and Labour need to cop on and wake up and get organized.
As I said before, SF are tiny but they are organized and can pull off shocks in certain areas.

If FG and Labour cannot trounce FF in the next election then I don't blame FF, for shame FG and Labour, you can lead a government for decades and you won't grasp it???
For shame, now is your time so use it.

Personally I hate negative politics, hate it!
I don't want Kenny or Gilmore telling me what's wrong, I want to hear solutions, I don't want to hear problems

Liam Byrne

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

A party that is unwilling to cut social welfare and desires to increase public sector pay in a recession is not competent enough to govern, in my opinion.

I agree. But if the alternative is one that's corrupt and is "horrendously bad", then we've no choice but to go with the least worst option.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

When it comes to casting my ballot it looks like I'll be sticking FF above Labour. Much as I want to punish FF, voting in a trade union riddled party would only be cutting off my nose to spite my face. Cuts need to be made and Labour are simply not the party who will make them.

Weeding out corruption also needs to be done, desperately. And if you're sticking FF above Labour, there probably isn't much point in me discussing anything further with you, because you've indicated that you condone and support corruption.

ANXIOUS

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I agree. But if the alternative is one that's corrupt and is "horrendously bad", then we've no choice but to go with the least worst option.





Weeding out corruption also needs to be done, desperately. And if you're sticking FF above Labour, there probably isn't much point in me discussing anything further with you, because you've indicated that you condone and support corruption.

Weeding out courption is been done. You just have to look at the people who have been caught. I'd rather vote for a party that is changing instead of voting for a party that is afraid to make the necessary changes.

Eliot Rosewater

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I agree. But if the alternative is one that's corrupt and is "horrendously bad", then we've no choice but to go with the least worst option.

It depends on your definition of "least worst". My first priority in the next election will be to select candidates who I feel will pursue the best economic policies. Labour lag here.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And if you're sticking FF above Labour, there probably isn't much point in me discussing anything further with you, because you've indicated that you condone and support corruption.

Firstly, the sensationalist rhetoric doesn't help anyone.

More importantly, I'm flexible on the issue. A few months ago I had Labour above FF. If they came out with strong coherent and economically sound policies I would probably switch again. I'd love to punish FF. But I'm not living in the past, and I will only punish them so long as said punishment doesn't hurt me too.

It's about finding a balance between punishing corruption and looking into the future. FF fail on the former; Labour on the latter.

Scan Man

This is just hog wash fed to the media, a bit like Michael O'Leary and Ryanair's regular blustering except that no one makes Gilmore stuff his foot in mouth like Easyjet did to O'Leary recently.

None of the mainstream parties have a solution to the current situation, they're far too busy planning the blame game even though that became old about two years ago. I personally can't stand to watch any Irish news or current affairs programs because its always the same old crap.

Plus a vote for Labour, is really a vote for a Fine Gael dominated coalition, and that's possibly the worst thing since the Enabling Act of 1933 in Germany for the average person. Its amazing what short memories the Irish electorate have of the previous coalitions.

And no I won't be back to hear the snipes of those of shirts blue.

Shea O'Meara

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Weeding out courption is been done. You just have to look at the people who have been caught. I'd rather vote for a party that is changing instead of voting for a party that is afraid to make the necessary changes.

This is bologne. This is the same line FFail drag out after every spate of criminality. It's utter bull****. Anyone who buys into this is either an idiot or a liar.

It's only FFail who need to make these kind of changes.

It's actually quite insulting. They claim no wrong doing up to the last minute. Try wriggle out of it and finally when all else fails drag out the old chestnut...'We're cleaning house..that was then this is now.' Next time a FFail knocks on my door I'll be expecting an apology.

Liam Byrne

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Firstly, the sensationalist rhetoric doesn't help anyone.

It's not sensationalist rhetoric.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

More importantly, I'm flexible on the issue. A few months ago I had Labour above FF. If they came out with strong coherent and economically sound policies I would probably switch again. I'd love to punish FF. But I'm not living in the past, and I will only punish them so long as said punishment doesn't hurt me too.

You claim that Labour haven't the will to make the cuts. Well, FF don't have the moral authority to make the cuts, not when their members are ripping off the country to the tune of €81,000 without fear of eviction from the party.

So neither can make the cuts required.

I'll accept cuts and taxes from others in order to help out the country, but I won't accept paying a cent more to FF so that they can bogusly claim expenses and flush it down the toilets that are Anglo and NAMA.

Liam Byrne

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Weeding out courption is been done. You just have to look at the people who have been caught. I'd rather vote for a party that is changing instead of voting for a party that is afraid to make the necessary changes.

Weeding out corruption done, and yet you're having a pint with the weasel ?

And remind me again, Callely is still a member, yes ?
O'Donoghue is still a member and a TD, yes ?
Ahern is still a TD (although notable absent on speaking engagements and book tours while still claiming his wages and expenses) yes ?
O'Dea is still a TD and a member, yes ?

"Has been done" my arse! :mad:

mikemac

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

It's not really. Just because FF are horrendously bad does not mean Labour are any better. When it comes to casting my ballot it looks like I'll be sticking FF above Labour. Much as I want to punish FF, voting in a trade union riddled party would only be cutting off my nose to spite my face. Cuts need to be made and Labour are simply not the party who will make them.

I can see your point but remember what happened recently.
The unions cosied up to FF for the last ten years ,hey why not some say benchmarking was an ATM to the exchequer.

Now times are bad and the unions tried to reconcile to the Labour Party. And Labour told them to feck off, you cosied up to FF and now you come back to us?? The Labour Party have a point.

The unions and the Labour Party seemed to be allies but the unions were not slow to desert them to FF. Yeah, this was fine while times were good but those times were gone.

And realy, there were unions members on the board of directors of FÁS and the Central Bank and you expect me to pay subs to them??? **** off with their €125,000 salary while members are on the dole and union reps hassle with proof of unemployment before union subscriptions are reduced

Unions have a place in Ireland.
It's for exploited foreign workers in Ireland or that quiet lad on the factory floor with no confidence and needs help.
That is where unions belong

It is not for:

• Agreeing welfare rates with ministers, **** off that is goverment business and you were not on my ballot card
• Interfering in issues with social housing, also government business
• And hey, benchmarking is a two way process, if you want to get linked to private sector pay then it goes DOWN as well as up. What??? No premium for your job security and defined benefit pension

There are times in Ireland working in hotels when I got bullied by managemeet and so did everyone else. Did unions care, did they ****!
We tried to get SIPTU in and distributed memebership cards, once they learned we are part time casual they did not care.
Seems they only want full time staff in safe secure jobs, hey easy subscriptions every month

Unions are invaluable, it's a pity they abondan people in Ireland who need them most and represent the people in Ireland in permanent jobs who need them least :mad:
I know you'll say the unions secured these conditions, I realy do not see them aiming for areas where exploited workers are.

Denerick

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'll accept cuts and taxes from others in order to help out the country, but I won't accept paying a cent more to FF so that they can bogusly claim expenses and flush it down the toilets that are Anglo and NAMA.

FG and Labour will continue NAMA and the Anglo policy. There is no alternative now the gears are in motion. The only reason FG opposed NAMA was because they were cashing in on the discontent it caused. Absolutely spineless, the lot of them. I just wish a politician would stand up and tell the truth - 'we're fúcked because we bought shít we didn't need and now we have to keep shít we didn't need because we can't afford that shít we didn't need collapsing because then we'll be even deeper in the shít than we are now'.

Will somebody please stand up and say the fúcking obvious, not this constant pandering to idiots that passes for political dialogue in our party political hierarchy these days.