Sexist Dress Codes

Maguined

Inspired by a thread in the ladies lounge this reminded me what a bit pet peeve this is of mine.

Company dress codes, we all know they are sexist, that is a given, but I was wondering about how obviously one sided it is in peoples personal experiences.

I work in an investment bank so being an international company they have formal expectations when it comes to the dress codes so it is apparently obvious the differences between the genders. The men in my company are actually fairly lucky as formal dress codes standards goes, we don't have to wear jackets or ties, but we do have to wear suit pants, shirts and black or brown shoes. The women in the company can practically wear whatever they want and it is still accepted as "formal" business wear. Jeans, runners, t-shirts, shorts have all been worn ranging from the classier kinds to the downright casual old comfy pair of jeans with a care bears t-shirt which cannot be classified as anything but casual.

This is something that is just accepted by society and we just have to live with it and work away even if it is something that does annoy me. What really rubbed salt into the wound was the fact of casual Fridays. Casual Fridays was a fantastic idea, we all get to wear our normal casual gear to keep us nice and comfy for the start of the weekend and is especially appreciated when you are going out for a few drinks after work on a Friday, not having to wear your crappy suit makes a huge difference. However this became a slight point of contention of mine when they announced to boost staff morale we can wear casual gear for two months of the summer Monday to Friday, we were delighted. Then a few males in the office started throwing out some probing questions, could we wear shorts etc? that was deemed not acceptable so no shorts for the guys on some of these hot summer days, no flip flops for the guys either, yet women can wear shorts and flip flops, not to mention skirts or dresses above the knee so these are deemed professional for women but men's long board shorts below the knee are unprofessional for men.

So that's my little rant over, was wondering what personal experiences has anyone here had about this glaringly obvious yet accepted sexist double standard we have in society today?

Hogzy

F*ck that if women are walking around wearing shorts and short skirts id just wear shorts. What are they going to say to you?

Maguined

They say it is not allowed for men to wear shorts, if you point out that women are wearing shorts then the managers make some excuse that they are not really shorts, they are short capris pants or some nonsense like that.

If you openly point out that this is sexist to the managers, the managers in our section just laugh and agree it is sexist but those are the rules that come down from HR and no one wants to kick up a fuss and take it further fearing it could affect their jobs when the next round of redundancies comes to our section.

Hogzy

Fair enough it is kicking up a fuss but if you got in trouble in anyway for wearing shorts im sure you would have a nifty little lawsuit going in your favour!

Brendog

It all depends really...

In my job the dress code is "smart/casual"...that can be interpreted differently by different people.

for instance, some people wear black loafers, jeans, t-shirt and a shirt. Other people come in wearing shiny shoes, designer slacks, silk shirts and a sports coat. I don't know if this is a superiority complex where they need to show all this expensive clothing is "Casual" or if they are just very conscious about their appearance...

I myself have no problem wearing suits, sportcoats and what not but i choose not to because I don't find them comfortable.

Maguined

Hogzy wrote: »

Fair enough it is kicking up a fuss but if you got in trouble in anyway for wearing shorts im sure you would have a nifty little lawsuit going in your favour!

You see no one is willing to take that risk, I mean sure if you wore your shorts your manager would take you aside and tell you that they are not appropriate, at that point you have two choices, toe the lines or fight it, if you fight it then most managers these days would probably be smart enough not to give you warnings or fire you over something they know they would lose over. In my company and from what i have heard of others in the finance if you kick up a fuss and your manager wants to get rid of you they don't fire you over whatever you did to piss them off, they instead constantly increase your workload and deadlines so you eventually start performing badly according to these unrealistic demands so you either quit out of frustration or else then they can fire you for not doing your job and get away with it.

So no one is willing to take that risk over some shorts, but then i started this thread out of a more light hearted moan and rant to make myself feel better and hear other peoples stories of woes on their dress code divide.

CDfm

It is work and it is not school. If it needs to be explained to staff that when they go to work that they dress like they are in work then it is a bit sad.

Lots of people work in an environment where they can wear smart casual, teachers and doctors, for instance. Barmen too btw. Even Jedward dress for work.

So a few off the cuff comments here. If its a casual dress down day -it means - a jeans and t-shirt day is what is appropriate to the yacht club or the golf club and not the night club.

If it has to be explained to the ladies in the organisation that they need to dress to an equivalent standard to that of the men oops something wrong with the recruitment policy..

Now if you work it maintenance or IT there are acceptable standards too and you will probably be aware of what those are.

A good rule of thumb is to see what the managers wear because if you want to be a manager dress like one.

Ladies too. I expect most of them are graduates and can judge the gender equivalent.

I mostly wear casual in a work environment and suit it up when needed. If I meet a client or go out socially after work I need to be as business like in my casual as I would be in my office wear.

Its your profession and if you are in doubt visit a good gents outfitters.


Rant over.

Maguined

Oh I have no complaint against any of the women that dress this way, it is not that they are dressing below the standards imposed by the bank, its the fact that the standards are vastly different between men and women, a woman wearing jeans is allowed under management, a man is not. Our IT staff are allowed wear casual gear all the time, but that does not bother me as thats just the role of their job and it is applied equally to both men and women.

I completely support the women wearing whatever clothes they can get away with as they are normally more comfortable that more formal clothing and i will always try to push what i can get away with wearing, my problem lies with management and HR whom are imposing the sexist double standards, both the managers and the HR people responsible are a mix of men and women as well so its not the gender of those making the rules coming into play.

Again this is not a big issue really in the grand scheme of things, just getting my little rant out to relieve some of the annoyance.

CDfm

I worked for a financial institution in the UK years back and one one very hot day got a meno on my desk from the MD which said gentlemen are allowed to remove their jackets and loosen their ties and ladies may remove their cardigans.My jacket and tie were off hours before

Yes, the gender dress codes were a bit different but balanced out. It seems that the arbitrary method of enforcing the dress code is not working where you are.

Maybe, the ones that do not cotton on don't get promoted but it should be a matter for you to fit the part and not worry about others .

Mackman

Anyone else read the thread title as 'Sexyest Dress Codes'?

Odats

Well office etiquette from my experience is men (shirt,tie,slacks,shoes, V neck jumpers conservative colours, suit jacket optional but if going out to client/somewhere important full suit), women (trouser suit, cardigans, knee length skirts, blouses etc,them tshirt kinda things under suitjacket don't know what they're called)
Suppose each org is different.
Wouldn't tolerate jeans, runners combo.
If I was running an org men ties wouldn't be obligatory only when meeting clients, functions etc.
Smart casual Suit jacket, Shirt,Jeans clean cut dark denim, nice belt and nice shoes/boots.

BumbleB

Depends on company , but are you guys meeting clients ?. If thats the case its understandable. I actually did my interview for my present job in a budweiser t shirt.

Orlee

I think it's pretty unfair that guys are expected to wear a suit (without or without the jacket) and gals can pretty much wear what they like.

Some of the girls on my place shouldn't be allowed meet clients in the gear they wear! (me included probably!)

We're not even allowed have casual friday as it's deemed inapproriate for our line of work, yet most of the girls are pretty casual day in day out

matrim

Yeah these really annoy me too, although I'm lucky enough to work in IT where it's casual and jeans and a T-shirt are ok. In my last job shorts and flip flops were ok.

The closest I've come is actually to do with hair. I used to have long hair (kept neat and clean) and even though they hired me with long hair after a while they tried to get me to cut it. I refused pointing to the girls and luckily enough the manager just grumbled a bit but didn't do anything else about it.

But it works the other way too, especially in schools, where a lot of schools don't allow girls to wear trousers even in the depths of winter.

CDfm

I agree with you on the hair thing BTW -totally silly for an IT guy.

School uniforms and trousers for girls - + 1 100%.

We are not in the 1950's -we are in 2010. #

My work outfit today is a jacket with a velvet collar, stylish designer shirt,ralph lauren polo jeans and cowboy boots from Aldo. A bit in your face smart casual.

CDfm

Orlee wrote: »

Some of the girls on my place shouldn't be allowed meet clients in the gear they wear! (me included probably!)

Raise the bar and it may benefit your career.;)

Maguined

In my job we are not meeting clients at all, we never meet our external clients, we would only have other employees of the company from different branches worldwide coming over to meet us so that's not really an excuse.

Yeah a school that forces girls to wear skirts is pretty crappy and sexist as well my school let the girls wear slacks if they wanted. I wonder would any school let a guy wear the school skirt in?

CDfm

It would then depend on whether given the nature of the work if you are expected to give a particular image out\to "internal clients". If I ever visit one of the companies offices overseas I always suit up.

If I meet an accountant I expect a blue pinstripe and lawyer a grey pinstripe. You gotta look professional.

So in your case -careerwise - dressing up should be the thing. Look at what the internal clients from overseas wear and the dress code of those one step above you.

Michael O'Leary dresses down as his image to investors etc but he has proven himself. So who does the dress code need to impress.

Maguined

True but then this is not a thread about dressing to impress for your career.

This thread is about the sexist disparity between what is considered "acceptable business wear" between the different genders, what I can wear compared to what a woman can wear in the exact same job role as me, facing the exact same levels of client interaction are vastly different with that difference being purely sexist.

CDfm

But if the thread is about gender disparity -should you lower your standards or they raise theirs. What do you suggest.

An extention of what you are saying is that women are not dressing appropriately for work or as equals to their male colleagues and this would of course have some influence on their prospects for promotion.

Should the glass ceiling be replaced by a mirrored ceiling.

All the women I know who progressed have impecable dress taste. Sales people also dress well as a rule.

Khannie

BumbleB wrote: »

Depends on company , but are you guys meeting clients ?. If thats the case its understandable. I actually did my interview for my present job in a budweiser t shirt.

What is your current job if you don't mind me asking? That's my kind of job.

Hazys

In my office its Semi-Formal dress code, so that usually leaves a lot of leeway for people dressing more casual than semi-formal. So on my floor you see guys in suits and ties against guys in non-tucked in golf shirts, pants and runners. Although it is kinda sexist as women can get away with more when its semi-formal.

But none of that bothers me, appearance is very important in business for at least 1st impressions anyway. People who dress more professionally in a professional environment generally get more respect or appear more important. So if a women in my office wants to wear jeans to work, she is going to get less respect (sub-consciously) as if she was wearing a suit.

Just because you can get anyway with more doesnt mean you should. I prefer the fact that I as a guy cant get away with more because its a temptation to dress lazily.

BumbleB

Khannie wrote: »

What is your current job if you don't mind me asking? That's my kind of job.

engineer ,came straight out of the aptitude test , and shuttled to the job hq . I didn't have any time to change and I said it to my interviewer ,to tell the truth he didn't care .I must have looked like a total alco.

CDfm

fantastic thread Maguined.

Hazys

Hazys wrote: »

she is going to get less respect (sub-consciously) as if she was wearing a suit.
.

Why would she get less respect for wearing a suit

BumbleB

CDfm wrote: »

fantastic thread Maguined.

I agree +1.

Hazys

bluewolf wrote: »

Why would she get less respect for wearing a suit

If you walk into a meeting room, one guy is wearing a golf shirt and another guy is wearing is wearing a suit...on first impressions who would you think is more important/knows what he is talking about?

Subconsciuosly in most of people's interactions, appearance plays a strong part in what we think of people.

Mrmoe

Hazys wrote: »

If you walk into a meeting room, one guy is wearing a golf shirt and another guy is wearing is wearing a suit...on first impressions who would you think is more important/knows what he is talking about?

Subconsciuosly in most of people's interactions, appearance plays a strong part in what we think of people.

That is quite true. However, in my case I often have a strong suspicion of people in suits. The key aspect is to know the audience/people that you are working with. I would normally associate men wearing suits with politicians,bankers and sales men. These goups do not have a good public standing in general. If they were working within a closed such as witn other professionals then you would definitely need to wear a suit.

CDfm

Mrmoe wrote: »

That is quite true. However, in my case I often have a strong suspicion of people in suits.

Oh yes, teacherphobia. Your Ma said he was nice and he wore a suit .......;)

Hazys

Hazys wrote: »

If you walk into a meeting room, one guy is wearing a golf shirt and another guy is wearing is wearing a suit...on first impressions who would you think is more important/knows what he is talking about?

Subconsciuosly in most of people's interactions, appearance plays a strong part in what we think of people.

That's why I'm asking why you said a woman would get LESS respect from you for wearing a suit

Maguined

CDfm wrote: »

But if the thread is about gender disparity -should you lower your standards or they raise theirs. What do you suggest.

An extention of what you are saying is that women are not dressing appropriately for work or as equals to their male colleagues and this would of course have some influence on their prospects for promotion.

Should the glass ceiling be replaced by a mirrored ceiling.

All the women I know who progressed have impecable dress taste. Sales people also dress well as a rule.

Not at all, my point is that what the women are wearing is not negatively affecting their careers because it is considered "acceptable" by management even if it is different and of a lower formal standard to the men, so there is a gender disparity as if I as a male wear jeans and a tshirt it would affect my career negatively while a woman doing the exact same job as me would not be affected negatively at all.

All I am saying is that there should be an equal dress code, I do not mind what level that is as long as it is equal, if they said both men and women can wear jeans then that is equal and i am happy, if they say both men and women have to wear formal suits, hey i dont like my suit but its still equal so i can't complain, I do feel like i can complain (well have a moan online anyway) when I am told I have to wear my suit while a woman doing the same job can wear jeans and a thsirt or basically whatever else she wants and as far as the company and management are concerned its equally "acceptable" dress attire.

Hazys

bluewolf wrote: »

That's why I'm asking why you said a woman would get LESS respect from you for wearing a suit

What i said:

So if a women in my office wants to wear jeans to work, she is going to get less respect (sub-consciously) as if she was wearing a suit.

I can see the confusion, i should have said:

"So if a women in my office wants to wear jeans to work, she is going to get less respect (sub-consciously) than as if she was wearing a suit.

Mrmoe

CDfm wrote: »

Oh yes, teacherphobia. Your Ma said he was nice and he wore a suit .......;)

I think it is more bankerphobia these days:p

CDfm

Maguined wrote: »

Not at all, my point is that what the women are wearing is not negatively affecting their careers because it is considered "acceptable" by management even if it is different and of a lower formal standard to the men, so there is a gender disparity as if I as a male wear jeans and a tshirt it would affect my career negatively while a woman doing the exact same job as me would not be affected negatively at all.

Could it be your question has been answered

Mackman wrote: »

Anyone else read the thread title as 'Sexyest Dress Codes'?

:D:p

All I am saying is that there should be an equal dress code, I do not mind what level that is as long as it is equal, if they said both men and women can wear jeans then that is equal and i am happy,

Do you think its unfair and it gives the women an unfair advantage.;)

if they say both men and women have to wear formal suits, hey i dont like my suit but its still equal so i can't complain, I do feel like i can complain (well have a moan online anyway) when I am told I have to wear my suit while a woman doing the same job can wear jeans and a thsirt or basically whatever else she wants and as far as the company and management are concerned its equally "acceptable" dress attire.

Yup - campaign for a change but head to the gym so you become eye candy for the ladies

Giselle

Maguined wrote: »

if I as a male wear jeans and a tshirt it would affect my career negatively while a woman doing the exact same job as me would not be affected negatively at all.

Where I work (thankfully part-time), the men do wear jeans, but the women are expected to wear heels and make-up. Its not explicitly stated, but if you stray from this informal code, I have that same fear of the negative impact.

a woman doing the same job can wear jeans and a thsirt or basically whatever else she wants and as far as the company and management are concerned its equally "acceptable" dress attire.

I'm sorry thats your situation, but casual dress in my office comprises of jeans for men, and anything other than skirts, heels and make-up is unacceptable for the women. Casual just means less formal skirts, heels and make-up.

Its unfair, but its not consistently the case from office to office that men are discriminated against.

That skirts thing drives me up the wall. Any company trying to pull that crap, I'd be leaving fairly sharp :mad:
And heels? Dress code = damage your feet and back, great one. You should try reporting them for health + safety

Giselle

bluewolf wrote: »

That skirts thing drives me up the wall. Any company trying to pull that crap, I'd be leaving fairly sharp :mad:
And heels? Dress code = damage your feet and back, great one. You should try reporting them for health + safety

My problem is I'm spineless.:)

The job hours suit me so well that the last thing I want to do is rock the boat, so its bunions, cold legs and backache all the way. I do go in bare-faced as an act of defiance though:(

ragg

Maguined wrote: »

Inspired by a thread in the ladies lounge this reminded me what a bit pet peeve this is of mine.

Company dress codes, we all know they are sexist, that is a given, but I was wondering about how obviously one sided it is in peoples personal experiences.

I work in an investment bank so being an international company they have formal expectations when it comes to the dress codes so it is apparently obvious the differences between the genders. The men in my company are actually fairly lucky as formal dress codes standards goes, we don't have to wear jackets or ties, but we do have to wear suit pants, shirts and black or brown shoes. The women in the company can practically wear whatever they want and it is still accepted as "formal" business wear. Jeans, runners, t-shirts, shorts have all been worn ranging from the classier kinds to the downright casual old comfy pair of jeans with a care bears t-shirt which cannot be classified as anything but casual.

This is something that is just accepted by society and we just have to live with it and work away even if it is something that does annoy me. What really rubbed salt into the wound was the fact of casual Fridays. Casual Fridays was a fantastic idea, we all get to wear our normal casual gear to keep us nice and comfy for the start of the weekend and is especially appreciated when you are going out for a few drinks after work on a Friday, not having to wear your crappy suit makes a huge difference. However this became a slight point of contention of mine when they announced to boost staff morale we can wear casual gear for two months of the summer Monday to Friday, we were delighted. Then a few males in the office started throwing out some probing questions, could we wear shorts etc? that was deemed not acceptable so no shorts for the guys on some of these hot summer days, no flip flops for the guys either, yet women can wear shorts and flip flops, not to mention skirts or dresses above the knee so these are deemed professional for women but men's long board shorts below the knee are unprofessional for men.

So that's my little rant over, was wondering what personal experiences has anyone here had about this glaringly obvious yet accepted sexist double standard we have in society today?

Dude, nobody wants to see your hairy legs and crusty toes.
women dressed in summer gear is what makes working in an office during summer bareable. For the love of god and all that is holy, let it go....

CDfm

ragg wrote: »

Dude, nobody wants to see your hairy legs and crusty toes.
women dressed in summer gear is what makes working in an office during summer bareable. For the love of god and all that is holy, let it go....

Dont mind him Maguined -you go to the gym and become Diet Coke guy.

BumbleB

Honest to god the whole suit thing is so 19th century.I'm not one to fall for the BS and convention and following the ideals of some other individual.

Suits aren't for me though I will wear them out of respect for people on occassions like funerals and weddings.

When I was getting a mortgage.I went in an Ireland soccer jersey cause Ireland was playing that day and the first thing the bank manager said to me ,was "you must have a bit of money only the poor guys dress up".And yes I did get it.

Khannie

BumbleB wrote: »

engineer ,came straight out of the aptitude test , and shuttled to the job hq . I didn't have any time to change and I said it to my interviewer ,to tell the truth he didn't care .

I wouldn't have either. I've done interviews before and I couldn't give two farts what the interviewee is wearing. I had to wear jeans to the interview for my current job myself. I was coming straight from work in the last job and explained in advance that it would be the case (wearing anything else would have been suspicious and I didn't have time to change). For a knowledge worker job like that where you're never going to be customer facing your appearance really shouldn't count for anything IMO.

Khannie

ragg wrote: »

Dude, nobody wants to see your hairy legs and crusty toes.

I do.


*purrrrrr*

BumbleB

Giselle wrote: »

My problem is I'm spineless.:)

The job hours suit me so well that the last thing I want to do is rock the boat, so its bunions, cold legs and backache all the way. I do go in bare-faced as an act of defiance though:(

Well if you do have to wear high heels then get a pair of compression stockings as you may have varicose veins in later years as high heels do not allow your calves to squeeze the blood from your lower regions which is really important because your calves are your your secondary circulatory system, activa do ones that are just like tights. Try and get a pair but talk to your GP first , having varicose veins is no fun ...

CDfm

BumbleB wrote: »

Well if you do have to wear high heels then get a pair of compression stockings as you may have varicose veins in later years as high heels do not allow your calves to squeeze the blood from your lower regions which is really important because your calves are your your secondary circulatory system, activa do ones that are just like tights. Try and get a pair but talk to your GP first , having varicose veins is no fun ...

I cant believe you have the temerity to post here in tGC admitting using your gender, long legs & short skirts and high heels to get ahead. And advise other women (wink wink nudge nudge) on what stockings to wear.:p:D:p

BumbleB

CDfm wrote: »

I cant believe you have the temerity to post here in tGC admitting using your gender, long legs & short skirts and high heels to get ahead. And advise other women (wink wink nudge nudge) on what stockings to wear.:p:D:p

What ????.Do your research ?.

Giselle

BumbleB wrote: »

Well if you do have to wear high heels then get a pair of compression stockings as you may have varicose veins in later years as high heels do not allow your calves to squeeze the blood from your lower regions which is really important because your calves are your your secondary circulatory system, activa do ones that are just like tights. Try and get a pair but talk to your GP first , having varicose veins is no fun ...

I kick my shoes off under my desk and walk home in flats or low heels.

If I was on my feet all day I'd definitely kick up more of a fuss, its one thing having a dress code thats uncomfortable, but its too far to have one that damages your health.

One manager told me I was too short to take seriously without heels.

BumbleB

Giselle wrote: »

One manager told me I was too short to take seriously without heels.

Now I know why you went ballistic at me on a past thread.All makes sense now.

Macha

Giselle wrote: »

One manager told me I was too short to take seriously without heels.

Ok that's the point where I would go to HR.

On the dangers of high heels, research shows that they shorten your calf muscles, reducing their strength and your achilles heels will strengthen to compensate.

metrovelvet

My first job we weren't allowed to wear trousers. The men weren't allowed to wear skirts.

CDfm

BumbleB wrote: »

What ????.Do your research ?.

No way am I dressing up in drag for work

You are bang on about the work clothes BB and its a competition for looks and attitude as well as ability.

Maguined

Giselle wrote: »

Where I work (thankfully part-time), the men do wear jeans, but the women are expected to wear heels and make-up. Its not explicitly stated, but if you stray from this informal code, I have that same fear of the negative impact.

I'm sorry thats your situation, but casual dress in my office comprises of jeans for men, and anything other than skirts, heels and make-up is unacceptable for the women. Casual just means less formal skirts, heels and make-up.

Its unfair, but its not consistently the case from office to office that men are discriminated against.

Oh I agree there are probably plenty of cases of where women are discriminated against, as I said when I started this thread I just wanted to moan about my own personal issue which seems to be the same with any friends I have with all the other financial services companies around Dublin.