Brian Lenihan

trapsagenius

May as well start this thread as it has come up in a few other ones.

What is the opinion of my fellow boards.ie members of Brian Lenihan?The shining light of an otherwise poor government or just another man out of his depth when faced with such a massive crisis?

Personally, I really rate Lenihan.I think he is the perfect man, with the possible exception of Richard Bruton (and that's not going to happen now anyway), for the job.He has not shirked some of the hard decisions, like so many other politicians would have, such as cutting PS wages and setting up NAMA ( I know many people are fundamentally opposed to this, but I still firmly believe that it is the only show in town) and his willingness to continue in power despite his awful illness is, imo, admirable.Prospects for the Irish economy, growth wise at any rate, seem good, and Lenihan himself had no part in the creation of the crisis, unlike Cowen.

Regarding the banking guarantee-while it has been criticised recently, with reports showing that him and Cowen were advised not to introduce it, and while I still not exactly sure whether it was the right thing to do, let us not forget that at the time, many people were also in favour of such a guarantee-David Mcwilliams (I know, I know), being one that sticks out in my mind, if memory serves.I also seem to recall that it was a widely praised measure at the time.

Lenihan is well regarded domestically, by the media at any rate, with Miriam Lord and Sam Smyth both recently penning highly favourable articles about him.Ireland is also widely praised across the world for some of the actions taken in combating the crisis which prevented us from turning into another "Greece", and I believe that Lenihan deserves a lot of the credit for this.

Enough from me anyway.

N.B-While I accept that NAMA is obviously a big issue when judging Lenihan, I would ask that posters try and deal with other aspects of his tenure as Minister for Finance as much as possible also, to prevent this turning in to yet another pro-NAMA/anti-NAMA thread.

Gravy Fanatic

Its about time somebody stood up for Len, the communists and blueshirts aboard here have nothin good to say about a man that can help them.

trapsagenius

Well, that's my argument down the drain I think its safe to say.

Liam Byrne

I agree that the worst of the crisis was caused pre-Lenihan, by Ahern & Cowen, but I cannot agree that he's a shining light, or credit him with his handling, because he (being charitable) went way OTT with the guarantee and NAMA and also included zero safeguards for the taxpayer, allowing the banks to choose their new heads from the existing pool and allowing them massive pay rises and payoffs - ridiculous if we're footing the bill and he's asking others to take pay cuts that affect their standard of living.

I'm also not sure if Dukes was his choice to represent the public interest, but Dukes' two-fingers to Shane Ross showed that appointment up to be a complete failure.

Was Lenihan out of his depth and conned by the banks or is he in on it ? Hard to tell.

But either way he is unsuitable for the job; we needed someone who could look after the interests of the country while dealing with rogue banks and bankers, and he bottled it.

paddyland

Whatever else Lenihan may or may not be, he has one simple and unforgiveable failing.

He stands for the most corrupt party in the history of the state.

It wouldn't matter whether he had the golden touch to bring recovery to this country overnight, his own party colleagues would piss it all up against the wall again, just like they have always done.

If he had any real honour, he would walk away from a party that has dishonoured itself irrevocably, a party that as far as I can see, no man could redeem, the rot goes so deep. I am sorry for his health issues. I am sure he could do himself no end of good by looking after himself instead of worrying about a party that would drop him like a hot cake if it suited them.

Fianna Fáil have no honour, and neither does anyone who stands for them.

Colonel Sanders

Brian Lenihan? The architect of "the cheapest bailout in the world so far"

The man who didn't rush into the banks "without knowing precisely what the position is in those banks”

The man who has shown he is either inept or a liar re. the banking crisis and NAMA?

Another piece of FF filth, nothing more

galwayrush

As events unfold, he's looking more and more out of his dept , and a lot of his defence of his and his Governments response to the crisis is sounding quite pathetic at this stage.

Sand

One of the poorest Finance Ministers the country has ever had - Cowen was worse of course, but Cowen took several years to get things in a terrible mess. Lenihan managed to make things significantly worse in a single night.

As Morgan Kelly pointed out, Lenihan has time and time and time again got it wrong - at any given point throughout the crisis you could read a pronouncement/prediction by Lenihan and know that the exact opposite would happen. This has carried on throughout the entire debacle.

I dont think hes that strong either - Its not too hard to talk about the need for fiscal restraint when theres no money left and the ECB are breathing down your neck. Even in that context, for all his supposed strength Cowen forced him to accept the Croke Park deal, and Bord Snip Nua cuts were abandoned due to the fury of the quangocracy and the trade unions. He gives a good speech and projects himself well, but hes a lawyer - one would expect he could talk a good game.

I also find it hard to forget his fathers comments that this island was too small for us all to live and work here. Brian Lenihan Snr of course never even conceived that his own sons might have to emigrate to live and work. That was for the little people, the peasants. Lenihan and his brother are Fianna Fail aristocracy and symptomatic of the worst aspects of our feudalistic democracy. It might be cruel to say he got to his position on the basis of his name, but it surely didnt hurt - [EDIT Actually, calling a spade a spade...he did - he inherited his fathers seat like a family heirloom /EDIT]. You can be quite sure than none of the Lenihan children today will face the prospect of emigration.

I'm bemused by the popularity he has in the wider media and public - I assume he looks good in the company he keeps because hes one of the few FF members who dont pick their nose on live TV.

I think if we looked outside the various FF family lineages we might find a far better candidate for Minister of Finance.

Wolfe Tone

Give credit were credit is due, it would have been very easy to hide behind his illness or use it to deflect criticism yet he has done neither. Many more would have quit or retired when confronted with such a serious illness like he has been, but he hasn't, so credit to the man, he is obviously a very determined, dedicated man who wants to do the right things and in his mind is doing so. I sincerely hope he can, and we can, look back in 20 years time and say that he did a good job. I have my doubts though.

Liam Byrne

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Give credit were credit is due, it would have been very easy to hide behind his illness or use it to deflect criticism yet he has done neither. Many more would have quit or retired when confronted with such a serious illness like he has been, but he hasn't, so credit to the man, he is obviously a very determined, dedicated man who wants to do the right things and in his mind is doing so. I sincerely hope he can, and we can, look back in 20 years time and say that he did a good job. I have my doubts though.

His illness is irrelevant. He wasn't ill when he signed us up to the guarantee.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

His illness is irrelevant. He wasn't ill when he signed us up to the guarantee.

What I said still stands. He could have done what I said, yet he has not. Why do you think that is?

Liam Byrne

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What I said still stands. He could have done what I said, yet he has not. Why do you think that is?

Because it's his job, and he's getting paid for it, and if he's able to do it (debatable, but anyway) then he should be just like anyone else.

As for "deflecting criticism"; he's done PLENTY of that - blaming Lehman's, lying about NAMA and profits and the amount Anglo would cost and "advice" and getting credit flowing, etc, etc.

If he'd been honest about all those, maybe he'd have received the appropriate level of criticism.

Wolfe Tone

I meant using his illness to do so. I admire him for the strength of character he has shown.

Not for what he has done in office.

Het-Field

Lenihan will need to be judged at another time. The man has established a complex bank strategy, which is liable to make a large loss, but could be the answer to cleaning up the banks. The man has also commited himself, thus far to financial austerity. However, whether he choose to maintain this austier course will be articulated in the future.

The man is grappling with his protfolio. he was clearly out of his depth in the first 15 months, but then managed to take some control

doctorwu

The guy is out of his depth. He and the rest of the gombeens were sold pup after pup by the banks(staffed with all their cronies,Bertie "my good friend Seannie"). I wish him well with his illness, but you reap what you sow.

Byron85

He has done some good things but mostly bad things. He's a man far out of his depth. This was painfully evident after reading the chapter in McWilliams' book about the meeting between the two of them in the run up to the announcement of the bank guarantee. There was another part later on in the book where McWilliams asked Lenihan how the situation was developing and Lenihan replied, "The Brits are furious so we must be doing something right." The man has zero credibility.

sesna

Dont say anything bad about this man, he is a saint and can do no wrong.

paddyland

The essential requirement of the Minister for Finance is credibility.

Lenihan does not have credibility any more. It matters not whether he is up to the job, if he cannot be believed in his actions or public statements.

What this country needs now is someone credible in charge. FG and Labour have yet to prove their credibility, but FF have already proven they cannot be trusted, and need to be ousted.

Liam Byrne

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I meant using his illness to do so. I admire him for the strength of character he has shown.

I still don't agree, because his illness has no bearing on his ability..

Most people in this country who have a serious illness would have no choice but to continue working for as long as they are able; in fact, their employer would expect them to.

Lenihan has lied about the impact of his decisions every single step of the way, and has zero credibility or authority.

Which - as you seem to agree, given your "not for what he has done in office" caveat - is precisely what we don't need in this country.

trapsagenius

paddyland wrote: »

Whatever else Lenihan may or may not be, he has one simple and unforgiveable failing.

He stands for the most corrupt party in the history of the state.

It wouldn't matter whether he had the golden touch to bring recovery to this country overnight, his own party colleagues would piss it all up against the wall again, just like they have always done.

If he had any real honour, he would walk away from a party that has dishonoured itself irrevocably, a party that as far as I can see, no man could redeem, the rot goes so deep. I am sorry for his health issues. I am sure he could do himself no end of good by looking after himself instead of worrying about a party that would drop him like a hot cake if it suited them.

Fianna Fáil have no honour, and neither does anyone who stands for them.

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Another piece of FF filth, nothing more

These kind of comments are very discouraging when it comes to posting here.

Het-Field wrote: »

Lenihan will need to be judged at another time. The man has established a complex bank strategy, which is liable to make a large loss, but could be the answer to cleaning up the banks. The man has also commited himself, thus far to financial austerity. However, whether he choose to maintain this austier course will be articulated in the future.

In fairness, you're absolutely correct on this.I always say that you can only look back on someone's work and make a judgement after they are finished.I suppose you could say that the purpose of this thread is to hear different people's viewpoints on Lenihans suitability for the job, what kind of a job he has done so far and so on.

At the end of the day, it is as yet unclear how things like NAMA and the banking guarantee will look when we reflect on them in 20 years time, so from that point of view, it is difficult to really give an accurate account of how Lenihan will be judged.Everything in this thread is really only speculation-but I am speculating that he will be looked on very favourably.

doctorwu wrote: »

The guy is out of his depth. He and the rest of the gombeens were sold pup after pup by the banks(staffed with all their cronies,Bertie "my good friend Seannie"). I wish him well with his illness, but you reap what you sow.

Please, please tell me that you're not implying that he deserves the cancer.

Het-Field

trapsagenius wrote: »

These kind of comments are very discouraging when it comes to posting here.



In fairness, you're absolutely correct on this.I always say that you can only look back on someone's work and make a judgement after they are finished.I suppose you could say that the purpose of this thread is to hear different people's viewpoints on Lenihans suitability for the job, what kind of a job he has done so far and so on.

At the end of the day, it is as yet unclear how things like NAMA and the banking guarantee will look when we reflect on them in 20 years time, so from that point of view, it is difficult to really give an accurate account of how Lenihan will be judged.Everything in this thread is really only speculation-but I am speculating that he will be looked on very favourably.



Please, please tell me that you're not implying that he deserves the cancer.

Hence why it is easier to dismiss some of his fellow collegues, particularly the incumbent in the Taoiseach's office. I still find it incredible that people would back him up. After all, he was Minister For Finance, when the Irish Government chose to ignore international experiences in property bubbles, and proceeded to use property as the base for their electoral success in 2007. Historically he was a poor Minister. His only contribution to heath was his baptism of the department as "Angola", while taking on Foreign Affairs at a time when the most pressing issues in the North had been dealt with.

Lenihan was a Junior Minister at the time. He was a a Junior Minister who many felt was sidelined by Bertie Ahern. I recall seeing him in action in 2005, and pegging him as the "leader after Cowen". I believe that NAMA will never turn a profit, and i dont believe many of the assets purchased by NAMA are redundant. However, until this is made explicitly clear, I will reserve judgement. Equally, Lenihan's budgetary strategy for 2011 and 2012 will be an indication of his willingness to implement fiscal restraint, which has not been the staple for the Fianna Fail Party (a high ranking member of the PP stated to me that "I never thought I would see the day when FF would cut social welfare").

Essexboy

As John Stuart Mill said "His eminence was due to the flatness of the surrounding landscape".

Lenihan's colleagues are so poor that he looks good but he has allowed the bankers to continue as before which suggests a lack of will and also raises the question "if he yields so easily in public, what happens in private?"

Colonel Sanders

trapsagenius wrote: »

These kind of comments are very discouraging when it comes to posting here.

On what basis? FF have for the 2nd time in just over 30 years destroyed this country's economy and condemned generations of young people to a life outside these shores. They have sold the country out from under the feet of its citizens

I have nothing but contempt for the party and their TDs. It angers me every time I see that deluded moron Bertie Ahern's smug grin. I feel sick to the pit of my stomach every time I hear either of the 2 Brian's trying to bluff the country's problems away.

People belonging to that organisation are pretty low down the food chain in my opinion so I stand by my comment

maynooth_rules

Had a small bit of respect for him before this
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/now-600-escape-full-brunt-of-public-sector-pay-cuts-2000643.html

He is just another FF gumbawn but he is a little more in touch with the ordinary people than some of the clowns in that party

Liam Byrne

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Had a small bit of respect for him before this
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/now-600-escape-full-brunt-of-public-sector-pay-cuts-2000643.html

He is just another FF gumbawn but he is a little more in touch with the ordinary people than some of the clowns in that party

Yup....sickening!

A "bonus" is just that - a "bonus"....extra

It is not part of your basic pay.

Then again, in a party that objects to the definition of a "loan" / dig-out and the definition of "expenses" and the definition of "your normal place of residence", what the hell do you expect ? Hell, Cowen even tried to redefine "holidays", and NAMA is trying to redefine "profit", while Anglo is still viewed as an "investment" :mad:

Of course, FF look after those who are in a position to get bonuses and pensions and the like, and to hell with those who have just enough to get by, like the cleaner mentioned in that article.

FF are a cancer at this stage. Bend, twist and subvert every possible rule in the book and get away with it, while screwing ordinary people who have no choice but to file their PAYE and get walloped by extra taxes.

jmayo

trapsagenius wrote: »

These kind of comments are very discouraging when it comes to posting here.

Were you given the same hymm sheet as frankie "where's me trawler" fahy used this morning on RTE1 ?
Are we supposed to all stop with the depressing, cyncial, sceptical comments about our government and our future outlook ?
Lets all look on the bright side ehhh.

trapsagenius wrote: »

At the end of the day, it is as yet unclear how things like NAMA and the banking guarantee will look when we reflect on them in 20 years time, so from that point of view, it is difficult to really give an accurate account of how Lenihan will be judged.Everything in this thread is really only speculation-but I am speculating that he will be looked on very favourably.

Ah f**k it we have only got to suffer for 20 years and then shure it will all be worth it ?
You know where speculating got us. :rolleyes:

For anyone that claims lenihan is some new ffer with morals and ethics just listen to the speech he gave condoning, nay supporting, the actions of a fellow legal professional in lying on a sworn affadivit to the High court.
Please note lenihan is no ordinary lawyer, he is a senior consel that lectured in law and he is married to a ciruit court judge.
Obviously he has different take on the law and judicial system than us mere mortals who have always been told one must tell the truth. :rolleyes:

This was also the man who had no problems speaking at the funeral for the ex party leader and friend of his father that effectively stole from the fund raised to help his father get treatment for his liver failure.

He is just another dyed in the wool ffer, he was reared at the ff teat.

trapsagenius

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

On what basis? FF have for the 2nd time in just over 30 years destroyed this country's economy and condemned generations of young people to a life outside these shores. They have sold the country out from under the feet of its citizens

I have nothing but contempt for the party and their TDs. It angers me every time I see that deluded moron Bertie Ahern's smug grin. I feel sick to the pit of my stomach every time I hear either of the 2 Brian's trying to bluff the country's problems away.

People belonging to that organisation are pretty low down the food chain in my opinion so I stand by my comment

On the basis that slagging someone off for simply being a member of FF or describing someone as "FF filth" shows that you clearly are not even going to listen to the alternative viewpoint and therefore there is little point in trying to debate with you.

FF have done a lot of good since their foundation, and, (dare I say it) have many members who joined the party in the hope of doing Ireland some good rather than out of some hope of benefiting themselves and their "cronies".Same as any other party really, and I don't see how tarring very FF member with the same brush does any good.But in fairness, boards.ie was always good for generalisations.

jmayo wrote: »

Were you given the same hymm sheet as frankie "where's me trawler" fahy used this morning on RTE1 ?
Are we supposed to all stop with the depressing, cyncial, sceptical comments about our government and our future outlook ?
Lets all look on the bright side ehhh.

I don't mind someone criticising FF for x, y and z, but criticising someone for being a member of FF, or for being FF "filth" is a bit much.

jmayo wrote: »

Ah f**k it we have only got to suffer for 20 years and then shure it will all be worth it ?
You know where speculating got us. :rolleyes:

I only used 20 years as an example of how long it might take before we can properly judge Lenihan.Anyway, by engaging in the thread, you're engaging in a bit of speculation yourself, so you're guilty of the same crime as me.;)

jmayo wrote: »

For anyone that claims lenihan is some new ffer with morals and ethics just listen to the speech he gave condoning, nay supporting, the actions of a fellow legal professional in lying on a sworn affadivit to the High court.
Please note lenihan is no ordinary lawyer, he is a senior consel that lectured in law and he is married to a ciruit court judge.
Obviously he has different take on the law and judicial system than us mere mortals who have always been told one must tell the truth. :rolleyes:

I'm not going to defend this, because I was as disappointed with the whole O'Dea affair as everyone else, but I must point out that Lenihan was obliged to defend O'Dea due to Cowen's backing and if someone deserves the blame for this, it is Cowen.

jmayo wrote: »

This was also the man who had no problems speaking at the funeral for the ex party leader and friend of his father that effectively stole from the fund raised to help his father get treatment for his liver failure.

We've had this discussion before.I take it that you won't mind if I copy and paste something I previously posted?


I think he was asked to say a piece and it would have been poor form to refuse, imo.There is a time for recriminations, but immediately after someone's death is not the time.Also, if Brian Lenihan could find it in him to forgive Haughey even after what he did to his father (sorry to get sidetracked , but didn't Haughey only take the extra money from the fund?Obviously this is still completely indefensible, but its not as bad as taking money when it was still desperately needed.I am open to correction on this point, and I still think its repulsive), then doesn't that reflect well on him again?

jmayo wrote: »

He is just another dyed in the wool ffer, he was reared at the ff teat.

There are also many FG TDs in the Dail who were raised at the "FG teat".Is this their fault?Would you hold this against them as you seem to hold it against Lenihan?

On the subject of FG TDs, given your low opinion of Lenihan, what do you make of the fact that 2 of the 3 top guns in FG at present (Noonan and O'Reilly) have recently praised him and his capabilities?

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

I only used 20 years as an example of how long it might take before we can properly judge Lenihan.Anyway, by engaging in the thread, you're engaging in a bit of speculation yourself, so you're guilty of the same crime as me.;)

Realistic or pessimistic speculation based on facts is acceptable.

Unrealistic and overly-optimistic speculation is crazy (as has been proven).

trapsagenius wrote: »

I'm not going to defend this, because I was as disappointed with the whole O'Dea affair as everyone else, but I must point out that Lenihan was obliged to defend O'Dea due to Cowen's backing and if someone deserves the blame for this, it is Cowen.

No-one is "obliged" to defend corruption and dodgy activities.

In fact, if Lenihan had acted ethically and morally on this, he might actually be worthy of some of the praise that you and a few others bestow on him.

trapsagenius wrote: »

I think he was asked to say a piece and it would have been poor form to refuse, imo.There is a time for recriminations, but immediately after someone's death is not the time.

I'm not suggesting that Lenihan use the occasion to explicitly highlight what a weasel Haughey was, but a polite decline would have been enough to make a point.

Actually, when is the time for attributing blame and recriminations ? Obviously not at a funeral, but how about when corruption comes to light ? Or when banking reports highlight monumental screw-ups ? Or should we all wait 20 years, so that those responsible get off scot-free ?

paddyland

trapsagenius wrote: »

These kind of comments are very discouraging when it comes to posting here.

I appreciate your preference for balanced debate rather than one sided villification. However, when it comes to debating the future of this country and it's people, I do not wish to hear any utterance regarding policy from the people who were the primary cause of flushing the future of this country down the toilet.

How can you have a reasoned, balanced debate when one party continuously and relentlessly use LIES and SPIN rather than facts and honesty? The word of anyone in Fianna Fáil is not worth sh1te, considering the bald faced LIES we have been subjected to over the whole term of this government, not to mention the entire tenure of the Bertie government.

At this stage, a very sizeable proportion of the population distrust FF vehemently, and are sickened by the continuous pitiful attempts at self preservation of a party who harbour and condone chancers, charlatans and crooks. I am sorry if that discourages you, but it is a valid and widely held point of view.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Realistic or pessimistic speculation based on facts is acceptable.

Unrealistic and overly-optimistic speculation is crazy (as has been proven).

I don't view it as such.Anyway there's no money involved in this so it hardly matters.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No-one is "obliged" to defend corruption and dodgy activities.

In fact, if Lenihan had acted ethically and morally on this, he might actually be worthy of some of the praise that you and a few others bestow on him.

Well lets assume Cowen asked him to say a piece.Had he refused he could have had the party whip withdrawn, and you can't make any impact from the sidelines, and we all know that sometimes in politics, like in life in general, you have to do things you don't like and choose an option which is not ideal but which you might view as the lesser of two evils.Lenihan most likely did what he viewed as the better option in this situation.Still disappointing obviously, but somewhat more understandable.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that Lenihan use the occasion to explicitly highlight what a weasel Haughey was, but a polite decline would have been enough to make a point.

Well if he can forgive haughey (for what he did to his father, not for the corruption), I don't see why we should hold this against him.I think it actually reflects well on him.Anyway, I don't think any kind of decline would have been viewed as "polite" by the Haughey family.It was either he did and everything was fine, or he refused, which would have been a bit of a slap to the face to the Haughey family.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Actually, when is the time for attributing blame and recriminations ? Obviously not at a funeral, but how about when corruption comes to light ?

I don't have an answer to that tbh.I suppose it would vary on the case.Probably when it has been conclusively and definitely proved that "acts of corruption" (couldn't think of a better way of phrasing that) have taken place.That would be as good a guideline as any I suppose.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Or when banking reports highlight monumental screw-ups ? Or should we all wait 20 years, so that those responsible get off scot-free ?

The banking reports did not really highlight "monumental screw ups" in Lenihans case.In Cowen's yes, but not in Lenihan's.

Again, I only used 20 years as a yardstick.I could just as easily have said "it is as yet unclear how things like NAMA and the banking guarantee will look when we reflect on them in 5 years time" rather than 20.I was simply agreeing with Het-Field when he pointed out that it is still difficult to judge Lenihan given the fact that we don't yet know how things like the banking guarantee and NAMA will pan out.As I stated previously, we are only speculating.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

The banking reports did not really highlight "monumental screw ups" in Lenihans case.In Cowen's yes, but not in Lenihan's.

I presume the word "really" is in there to soften the denial ?

As in :

The state could have saved €10bn-€15bn if the bank guarantee had been structured to lessen its exposure to Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide, leading banking experts have calculated for the first time.

http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/jun/13/state-wasted-15bn-on-bank-guarantee-scheme/

€10bn - €15bn is a monumental screw-up!

trapsagenius wrote: »

I was simply agreeing with Het-Field when he pointed out that it is still difficult to judge Lenihan given the fact that we don't yet know how things like the banking guarantee and NAMA will pan out.

Well, NAMA will not do the 3 things that Lenihan promised, so either (a) he was lying or (b) it's crap. And those are the facts.