New changes to learner permit holders

Beanstalk

L-drivers face tougher training to get licence

From independent.ie

SWEEPING changes on how young motorists are taught to drive will be introduced before the end of the summer in an attempt to cut the carnage on our roads.

How L-drivers get licence now:

Learner drivers must pass the Driver Theory Test to get a learner permit. The test costs €35.60 and includes questions on rules of the road, risk perception, technical aspects of the car and driving behaviour.

Those who pass get a driver theory test certificate. This is valid for two years, meaning the test can be taken at 15 years.

A learner permit is a licence which allows inexperienced drivers to learn to drive and to apply for a driving test. A person must be aged 17 years to apply, and it is valid for two years. It costs €15.

Permit holders must be accompanied by a person with a full licence for at least two years. They must display 'L' plates and cannot drive on a motorway.
Candidates must wait six months after receiving their learner permit before applying to sit the driving test. The test for driving a car costs €75.


How they will get it in future:

Learner drivers will still have to pass the theory test before getting a learner permit, and wait six months before applying to sit the driving test.

They will also have to complete a number of hours of training given by an approved driving instructor.

The RSA has suggested that 20 hours' training could be needed. This could cost up to €700.

An approved syllabus from the Road Safety Authority would also have to be completed. This will include coping with road hazards and will set out the responsibilities of drivers.

A log-book showing the number of hours spent practising would also have to be kept. This would be filled in by the accompanying driver.

Measures that have been ruled out include imposing curfews and banning the carrying of passengers by inexperienced drivers.

Irish Independent

phasers

I can see a sudden surge of people furiously applying for their theory test this Summer :pac:

DreamC

Beanstalk wrote: »

A log-book showing the number of hours spent practising would also have to be kept. This would be filled in by the accompanying driver.

Lol :pac: I wonder if the accompanying driver will have to swear on the Bible (or the Rules of the Road, latest edition) that s/he was filling that log-book during the driving practice and not on the couch in front of the telly. :pac:

**Timbuk2**

I get the feeling that it will never happen, or at least not to the extent that they are suggesting. Not carrying passengers is an inconvience to single mothers, etc.

Also how could they enforce the accompanied driver logbook? What is to stop you from getting your friend to say that you have practiced for 2 hours when you actually haven't, etc?

robbie_998

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I get the feeling that it will never happen, or at least not to the extent that they are suggesting. Not carrying passengers is an inconvience to single mothers, etc.

Also how could they enforce the accompanied driver logbook? What is to stop you from getting your friend to say that you have practiced for 2 hours when you actually haven't, etc?

I'm sure it will have the instructors details or they have an official stamp or something

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Max Power1

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I get the feeling that it will never happen, or at least not to the extent that they are suggesting. Not carrying passengers is an inconvience to single mothers, etc.

Also how could they enforce the accompanied driver logbook? What is to stop you from getting your friend to say that you have practiced for 2 hours when you actually haven't, etc?

I think they said they were ruling out banning LP holders from carrying passengers

MascotDec85

DreamC wrote: »

Lol :pac: I wonder if the accompanying driver will have to swear on the Bible (or the Rules of the Road, latest edition) that s/he was filling that log-book during the driving practice and not on the couch in front of the telly. :pac:

It will be an ADI that will have to fill in the paperwork stating that the minimum number of hours have been completed not the learners dad/brother/sister/auntie/cousin.

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I get the feeling that it will never happen, or at least not to the extent that they are suggesting. Not carrying passengers is an inconvience to single mothers, etc.

Also how could they enforce the accompanied driver logbook? What is to stop you from getting your friend to say that you have practiced for 2 hours when you actually haven't, etc?

I think the RSA have stated that they won't bring in rules banning the carrying of passengers or having a curfew.

These new laws will make an improvement to road safety and anything that does so should be embraced.
However, I can't help thinking that proper enforcement of existing laws could show increased road safety results also.

**Timbuk2**

Ah thanks for explaining! I completely misread that! I think measures to improve driving are good, but I think 20 lessons are a bit much. I passed my test with 12 lessons, and I know people who passed their test with no lessons (although I think it's advisable to have at least a few lessons).

Isn't it a requirement in the UK to have a certain amount of lessons before sitting your test?

Love_Game

Ah need to get my a@@ is gear.

An automatic seems so much more appealing now!

MascotDec85

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Ah thanks for explaining! I completely misread that! I think measures to improve driving are good, but I think 20 lessons are a bit much. I passed my test with 12 lessons, and I know people who passed their test with no lessons (although I think it's advisable to have at least a few lessons).

Isn't it a requirement in the UK to have a certain amount of lessons before sitting your test?

I don't think it's a requirement to take a certain number of lessons in the UK, no. They now have a Hazard Perception Test as well as Theory Test.

The BIG difference between Ireland and the UK boils down to leaner driver attitude imo. It is generally accepted over there that you take structured driving lessons with an ADI then go for your test. It's a whole lot more hap-hazard here.

Faith+1

I'd say Driving Instructors are delighted with the news!

JP Liz V1

The RSA has suggested that 20 hours' training could be needed. This could cost up to €700.

:eek: expensive

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

DrivingMad

I think the independant were a little premature with this article.
This statement has just been issued on the RSA website:

19 July 2010

Statement on the Introduction of a Graduated Licensing System
An article has appeared in the Irish independent in relation to the proposed Graduated Driver Licence (GDL) and the RSA wish to clarify the position as follows;

A public consultation process was completed in the earlier part of this year. Following this, proposals were put to the Minister for Transport which have now been approved and work is underway to draft regulations which will cover the introduction of GDL. A formal announcement about the content and implementation date will be made before the end of August.


We will just have to wait n see what the final details are i guess....

beading

From independent.ie: "The changes will only affect new learner permit holders. Anyone who holds a licence now will not be affected."

Does it mean, that if I have learners permit from january, I don't need to obey these new rules and after few months, when I'll try to pass my driving test, no one will ask me for a log-book; 20 hours' training with adi etc. ?

MascotDec85

DrivingMad wrote: »

I think the independant were a little premature with this article.
This statement has just been issued on the RSA website:

19 July 2010

Statement on the Introduction of a Graduated Licensing System
An article has appeared in the Irish independent in relation to the proposed Graduated Driver Licence (GDL) and the RSA wish to clarify the position as follows;

A public consultation process was completed in the earlier part of this year. Following this, proposals were put to the Minister for Transport which have now been approved and work is underway to draft regulations which will cover the introduction of GDL. A formal announcement about the content and implementation date will be made before the end of August.


We will just have to wait n see what the final details are i guess....

It's only been a matter of time for a while now. It will happen, I'd say 10 lessons will become mandatory

MascotDec85

beading wrote: »

From independent.ie: "The changes will only affect new learner permit holders. Anyone who holds a licence now will not be affected."

Does it mean, that if I have learners permit from january, I don't need to obey these new rules and after few months, when I'll try to pass my driving test, no one will ask me for a log-book; 20 hours' training with adi etc. ?

All will become clear at the end of August.

No doubt there will be around 5 rules intertwined that takes a rocket scientist to figure it out

Generalissimo

This news was enough to shock me off my lazy backside and get me applying for my test this morning. I know now that it probably won't affect me (I have a learner permit already and have done lessons) but I've been slow to follow through with booking the test so it was nice to finally get motivated, even if it was by panic

With regards to what they implement I think a minimum of 20 hours with an ADI would be overkill. I did 10 hours and at the end of that my instructor told me I didn't need any more lessons and only needed to practice.

ha-ya-said-what

If you break it down say 10 hours to begin with, 2 more each 2months over the 6months to refresh and keep bad habits at bay until you can actually sit the test, then 4 more when you have a test date to cover the routes, pre-tests and what not. It really doesn't seem so bad and in my eyes would probably lead to higher pass rates and more passes on the first attempt.

But meeehhh that's just my view

Libero

Am interested in hearing from other learners who tried applying for the test today.

I simply couldn't get onto the RSA site this morning (at least not the book your test bit). By the time I got round to it now, I can bizarrely book a test at the end of August in Churchtown, but otherwise both it and Finglas are booked out until summer 2011!

This must be some sort of error, unless thousands and thousands applied today but rejected the idea (in Churchtown at least) of sitting the test as soon as next month. I would have checked other centres but didn't want the system hanging on me.

Midnight_EG

I'd be avoiding Churchtown too considering you can get lumped into Rathgar instead :pac:

ha-ya-said-what

All scream Ministerial Order for 2011 lol

Overature

this is absolute bollix, i only had 4 lessons and passed fine, where the **** are 17 and 18 years olds going to find €700, 20 lessons would have cost me a grand at what i paid for my lessons

MascotDec85

Overature wrote: »

this is absolute bollix, i only had 4 lessons and passed fine, where the **** are 17 and 18 years olds going to find €700, 20 lessons would have cost me a grand at what i paid for my lessons

Well done passing that quickly firstly, however even having done so you probably didn't gain a whole host of actual driving experience.

This move is about giving learners experience in a controlled environment gaining important tips and advice over a period of time from a person qualified to do so.

A 17 or 18 year old will happily spend time in the pub all weekend. In practice they don't pay out €700 in one go. They pay per lesson per week/as they go out.


You can't put a price on people's lives

daveharnett

Overature wrote: »

this is absolute bollix, i only had 4 lessons and passed fine

About the same for me, but that's not the point. From a road safety pov, driver education is not about passing the test.

Overature wrote: »

where the **** are 17 and 18 years olds going to find €700, 20 lessons would have cost me a grand at what i paid for my lessons

If the changes work (ie produce safer drivers), young/less experienced drivers will see this cost being offset by reduced insurance premiums.

Bear in mind that after these changes, getting a license here will still be much easier and cheaper than some other European countries.

**Timbuk2**

I'm 18, and it would be difficult to come up with the money for 20 lessons! Driving lessons don't necessarily make you increase your competence as a driver, but rather give you the skills and the knowledge to allow you to become a safe and skillful driver whilst practicing with an accompanied driver.

There are only a certain amount of lessons you can take before they are not productive. I took 12 lessons in total. After the 7th, the instructor said I was fine and for the remainder of the lessons (the last 10 were booked in a block) we were almost just running through the motions, going over routes, with very little corrections or comments about the driving. I passed my test with 0 Grade 2s and 4 Grade 1s. The key thing was that I got as much practice in with my parents. Every time my mother went to town to do the shopping, I would drive. Trust me, driving on small trips into town is much more beneficial than going on a long drive on a main road, at least for test purposes.

I think they should make a certain amount of accompanied driving practice compulsory, e.g. 30 hours, but to put a high minimum on the lessons only benefits the driving instructors. Maybe 5-10 lessons would be a more acceptable minimum.

MascotDec85

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I'm 18, and it would be difficult to come up with the money for 20 lessons! Driving lessons don't necessarily make you increase your competence as a driver, but rather give you the skills and the knowledge to allow you to become a safe and skillful driver whilst practicing with an accompanied driver.

There are only a certain amount of lessons you can take before they are not productive. I took 12 lessons in total. After the 7th, the instructor said I was fine and for the remainder of the lessons (the last 10 were booked in a block) we were almost just running through the motions, going over routes, with very little corrections or comments about the driving. I passed my test with 0 Grade 2s and 4 Grade 1s. The key thing was that I got as much practice in with my parents. Every time my mother went to town to do the shopping, I would drive. Trust me, driving on small trips into town is much more beneficial than going on a long drive on a main road, at least for test purposes.

I think they should make a certain amount of accompanied driving practice compulsory, e.g. 30 hours, but to put a high minimum on the lessons only benefits the driving instructors. Maybe 5-10 lessons would be a more acceptable minimum.

Ok. How would the compulsory driving practice be properly authenticated? Seriously.


I think the figure banded about this morning is an exaggeration and the true figure will be more like 10hrs

MascotDec85

goat2 wrote: »

i am a parent, who sent my offsprings forward for lessons as soon as they got their drivers permets, and these lessons were of great benefit, i am all for this, learning from someone who can make great drivers of them, they will have a better start

Agree 100%

skelliser

This scheme is utter bollox!
20hours for lessons! driving instructors christmas has come early!!

MascotDec85

skelliser wrote: »

This scheme is utter bollox!
20hours for lessons! driving instructors christmas has come early!!

Can you qualify that

Nasty_Girl

Can I get mine backdated I wonder
I've done heaps of lessons already (and I still can't pass a bloody test )

ha-ya-said-what

I don't see how people seem to think that ADI's will hike their prices up, any I have spoke to in the last year or so have said they have had to drop their prices due to non ADI instructors out there charging like €25 an hour, if anything bringing in the new log with ADI lessons will mean the learners ARE getting professional lessons, which in my eyes is well worth the money and also should even out the prices out there with regards to lesson prices.

Forgot to say that's if they make it so that only ADI's can stamp the log, be a bit rich for them to allow lessons from an instuctor not approved by the RSA, yet expect learners to take x amount of lessons. Don't get me wrong nothing agaisnt the new idea, but I don't see the point if they allow instructors not approved by them to carry out the lessons, when the instructors probably don't even meet their standard!

MascotDec85

Nasty_Girl wrote: »

Can I get mine backdated I wonder
I've done heaps of lessons already (and I still can't pass a bloody test )

It'll be for new learner permit holders only or those after a certain date

phasers

MascotDec85 wrote: »

A 17 or 18 year old will happily spend time in the pub all weekend.

Oh will they?

What a patronising post.

MascotDec85

phasers wrote: »

Oh will they?

What a patronising post.

It wasn't meant to be patronising and I'm sorry you took it that way. When I was that age it's pretty much all I wanted to do and pubs are pull of 18 year olds every weekend.

The point I was making is that money could be spent on lessons if that was the culture which existed

Nasty_Girl

Overature wrote: »

this is absolute bollix, i only had 4 lessons and passed fine, where the **** are 17 and 18 years olds going to find €700, 20 lessons would have cost me a grand at what i paid for my lessons

Where are they getting money for the car and insurance?

While I agree that it does seem excessive, I'm 26 and have had to wait until the last year to start learning because I never had anyone to teach me or practice with and had no money for lessons then anyway.
I'd seriously hate to think of what I've spent on lessons because it's the only way I can drive without breaking the law.

daveharnett

ha-ya-said-what wrote: »

Forgot to say that's if they make it so that only ADI's can stamp the log, be a bit rich for them to allow lessons from an instuctor not approved by the RSA, yet expect learners to take x amount of lessons. Don't get me wrong nothing agaisnt the new idea, but I don't see the point if they allow instructors not approved by them to carry out the lessons, when the instructors probably don't even meet their standard!

Only ADIs will be able to provide the required instruction.

jordainius

This won't improve road safety at all. The only people who will benefit from this are ADI instructors, they'll be laughing all the way to the bank.


Its unfair to set a minimum amount of paid lesson hours, some drivers won't need 20. I only took eight or nine lessons, and did more hours practising with my father or a good friend of mine beside me. I passed first time. And I absolutely will not entertain the notion that I am an inferior driver because I only took 9 hours rather than 20.

If I wasn't of the required standard, I would not have passed. I didn't need 20 hours. A lot of people wouldn't, some would need less than me, some would need more. These new laws fail to take into account that we're all different!

The driving test is the only true indicator as to whether or not you have enough lessons done, which is why I am failing to see these new laws as anything more than a money making exercise.

Who cares about saving lives when you can raise a bit of money, eh?:rolleyes:


Oh, and this "up to €700" doesn't go far enough, it would have cost me €800.

MascotDec85

jordainius wrote: »

This won't improve road safety at all. The only people who will benefit from this are ADI instructors, they'll be laughing all the way to the bank.


Its unfair to set a minimum amount of paid lesson hours, some drivers won't need 20. I only took eight or nine lessons, and did more hours practising with my father or a good friend of mine beside me. I passed first time. And I absolutely will not entertain the notion that I am an inferior driver because I only took 9 hours rather than 20.

If I wasn't of the required standard, I would not have passed. I didn't need 20 hours. A lot of people wouldn't, some would need less than me, some would need more. These new laws fail to take into account that we're all different!

The driving test is the only true indicator as to whether or not you have enough lessons done, which is why I am failing to see these new laws as anything more than a money making exercise.

Who cares about saving lives when you can raise a bit of money, eh?:rolleyes:


Oh, and this "up to €700" doesn't go far enough, it would have cost me €800.

The reason laws like the new ones suggested are required are because the learners of Ireland have not stuck to the existing laws i.e. driving unaccompanied etc. I think the Indo are exaggerating in relation to the number of mandatory hours that will be required.

Time and time again, listening to people and reading threads on here you see people ask, "How many lessons will I need?"
The answer is as many as it takes you to learn how to drive safely and pass the driving test. However, people here seem to want to do the bare minimum at best.

Why is it that very often here the attitude to learning to drive is very lackadaisical to say the least. It's a general culture and attitude problem that the RSA are trying to reverse. Similar attitudes are not prevalent in other countries. What makes Ireland so special?

Max Power1

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The reason laws like the new ones suggested are required are because the learners of Ireland have not stuck to the existing laws i.e. driving unaccompanied etc. I think the Indo are exaggerating in relation to the number of mandatory hours that will be required.

I cant see how the new laws WRT mandatory lessons have to do with the above tbh.

MascotDec85

Max Power1 wrote: »

I cant see how the new laws WRT mandatory lessons have to do with the above tbh.

As an example, driving unaccompanied in lieu of structured driving lessons from someone qualified to provide them and also as an example of a learner driving law which is broken every second in every town here

Max Power1

MascotDec85 wrote: »

As an example, driving unaccompanied in lieu of structured driving lessons from someone qualified to provide them and also as an example of a learner driving law which is broken every second in every town here

But HOW does this cut down on driving unaccompanied? Yes - it mandates that you must do so many lessons before applying for your test.

However - whats to stop (as happens now) drivers driving unnacompanied on an LP?

Unless im missing something there are no new measures to be introduced regarding increased penalties/clampdowns etc on unnacompained LP drivers.

MascotDec85

Max Power1 wrote: »

But HOW does this cut down on driving unaccompanied? Yes - it mandates that you must do so many lessons before applying for your test.

However - whats to stop (as happens now) drivers driving unnacompanied on an LP?

Unless im missing something there are no new measures to be introduced regarding increased penalties/clampdowns etc on unnacompained LP drivers.

I never said it would.

You took one part of my post and homed in on it. The point I was making it that leaner's here have flouted learner driver laws year in year out, one of them being the unaccompanied driver law.

Whilst mandatory lessons won't and can't prevent people do this it will ensure that learners take proper, structured driving lessons rather than being, in many cases self-taught.


The important thing to remember here is that the RSA cannot change the mentality of leaner's over night HOWEVER, this change in law should see a change in attitude over a period of time. If that then leads to improved road safety results, which it should, then fair play to them. To the next generation of learner driver, taking driving lessons with a qualified and approved instructor will be second nature. It works in other countries perfectly fine. Ireland should be no different

highlydebased

Personally, I think if someone wishes to drive wrecklessly to show off etc they are gonna do it anyway- Why do they think extra lessons and a logbook is going to stop them? To pass the full-test you need to have the required standard of driving, how does it matter how many lessons you need to reach that? You still have to reach it. Silly. They'd be better off enforcing the current rules I think.

MascotDec85

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Personally, I think if someone wishes to drive wrecklessly to show off etc they are gonna do it anyway- Why do they think extra lessons and a logbook is going to stop them? To pass the full-test you need to have the required standard of driving, how does it matter how many lessons you need to reach that? You still have to reach it. Silly. They'd be better off enforcing the current rules I think.

The point of it is to ensure a minimum amount of training in a bid to equip learner drivers with skills that they might not otherwise acquire.

I agree other rules should be better enforced too.

daveharnett

Neon-Circles wrote: »

To pass the full-test you need to have the required standard of driving, how does it matter how many lessons you need to reach that?

Not picking on you in particular NC, this seems to be a common theme among the objectors, and I have a problem with it.

Your argument seems to be based on the assumption that passing the test equals "mission accomplished". While it's natural that learners are keen to pass the test, it's not the real goal of driver education. The real goal is to consistently produce competent, confident, well-adjusted and safe drivers, and we all know plenty of fully licensed drivers who are not.

For argument's sake, lets assume that you are fit to pass the test after eight lessons. The remaining twelve could be put to great use improving your driving in conditions and circumstances that are not currently tested - slippery roads, country lanes, dual carrigeways, carparks, nighttime driving, emergency manouvers, whatever.

My fear is that the RSA's "20 hours" is actually a softening up measure to make an eventual mandatory 10 hours more palatable.

MascotDec85

daveharnett wrote: »

Not picking on you in particular NC, this seems to be a common theme among the objectors, and I have a problem with it.

Your argument seems to be based on the assumption that passing the test equals "mission accomplished". While it's natural that learners are keen to pass the test, it's not the real goal of driver education. The real goal is to consistently produce competent, confident, well-adjusted and safe drivers, and we all know plenty of fully licensed drivers who are not.

For argument's sake, lets assume that you are fit to pass the test after eight lessons. The remaining twelve could be put to great use improving your driving in conditions and circumstances that are not currently tested - slippery roads, country lanes, dual carrigeways, carparks, nighttime driving, emergency manouvers, whatever.

My fear is that the RSA's "20 hours" is actually a softening up measure to make an eventual mandatory 10 hours more palatable.

I think it's a case of The Independent's 20 hrs. But I agree that 10 is the most likely figure.

Good post btw

daveharnett

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Personally, I think if someone wishes to drive wrecklessly to show off etc they are gonna do it anyway- Why do they think extra lessons and a logbook is going to stop them?

So we should give up on driver education and do nothing but enforcement/detection?

Sorry, but that's just not an option. We have a huge road network for our population size. Even if the traffic corps was bigger than the HSE, detection rates would still be low. Just to illustrate, I live in Co Limerick (not the least policed roads in the country by a long stretch). In three years of driving (about 50,000 miles), I have passed a total of three active speed checks. If i had driven everywhere at 100mph for the last three years, I would still have my license. That's not mentioning all of the other driving offences I could have committed that are much more difficult to detect.

Apart from the technical/skills side of driving, any worthwhile instructor should be working to impart a positive, responsible attitude toward driving. The more time they have to work on the knuckleheads, the better their chances of success.

White_Wolf

Applying for mine at the moment, for as soon as I can get it.

g5fd6ow0hseima

White_Wolf wrote: »

Applying for mine at the moment, for as soon as I can get it.

I've just passed my theory test today so here's hoping that I could somehow escape these new proposals should they come in though. Im hoping that ill have my permit and a few lessons done by the time anything is enacted, although this 6-month wait it a joke and throws everything out the window.