Unfair Rail Fine

carrieflem

Hi , i wouldnt greatly appreciate your help and comments with my issue below:

On monday last I started getting the train to work as the girl I had gotten spins with started maternity leave. As it was monday I thought it made sense to get a weekly ticket. On the machine you had a choice of single, day return or weekly ticket. The sensible option was to get a weekly ticket as I would be getting the train all week. When I pressed the weekly ticket the option came up to buy pay cash etc, no other details (Bear this in mind for the rest of my story).

On the train on the way up to Cork a ticket inspector checked it and stamped it and the same on the way home. For the rest of the week my ticket wasnt checked until Friday morning, when this ticket inspector came around and was checking tickets. I took out mine and gave it to him and he asked me had I a travel pass card. I asked him what a travel card was and he said you get one from Irish Rail and that you cannot get a weekly ticket unless you have a travel pass card. I explained that it was my first week getting the train and how the other inspectors had checked it and never informed me of this and nor is there any signs in the station or the machine about this. But no he just kept saying I needed a pass. In the end he fined me and gave me a fine slip as there was no way he would back down. I had just presumed the fare was €50 as there was a girl one day on the train who had dodged buying a ticket and got fined €50 for not having a ticket. When I got to work I got ready to send them a letter and took out my fine and realised it was €100 fine? I dont understand how having the wrong ticket is twice the price of a fine for not having no ticket at all.


Sorry for the long post but it has just made me so mad!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:
carrie x

highlydebased

Seemingly you do need an ID card, Dont understand why

"Weekly Adults Weekly Tickets are valid for one week from Sunday to Saturday within the designated Zone. ID Cards required, which are available at any Iarnród Éireann Booking Office, on production of passport-sized photograph. No Yes Available from the InterCity Sales Office. Telephone: +353 (0)1 703 4639" (http://irishrail.ie/your_ticket/ticket_types.asp)

Given that the machine let you buy it and the first man said nothing to you I'd contest it really. You were genuinely unaware afterall

highnc

fines used to be €50, but they went up to €100 a few months ago

robbie_998

carrieflem wrote: »

Hi , i wouldnt greatly appreciate your help and comments with my issue below:

On monday last I started getting the train to work as the girl I had gotten spins with started maternity leave. As it was monday I thought it made sense to get a weekly ticket. On the machine you had a choice of single, day return or weekly ticket. The sensible option was to get a weekly ticket as I would be getting the train all week. When I pressed the weekly ticket the option came up to buy pay cash etc, no other details (Bear this in mind for the rest of my story).

On the train on the way up to Cork a ticket inspector checked it and stamped it and the same on the way home. For the rest of the week my ticket wasnt checked until Friday morning, when this unpleasant ticket inspector came around and was checking tickets. I took out mine and gave it to him and he asked me had I a travel pass card. I asked him what a travel card was and he said you get one from Irish Rail and that you cannot get a weekly ticket unless you have a travel pass card. I explained that it was my first week getting the train and how the other inspectors had checked it and never informed me of this and nor is there any signs in the station or the machine about this. But no he just kept saying I needed a pass. In the end he fined me and gave me a fine slip as there was no way he would back down. I had just presumed the fare was €50 as there was a girl one day on the train who had dodged buying a ticket and got fined €50 for not having a ticket. When I got to work I got ready to send them a letter and took out my fine and realised it was €100 fine? I dont understand how having the wrong ticket is twice the price of a fine for not having no ticket at all.


Sorry for the long post but it has just made me so mad!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:
carrie x

This is a bit mad alright

when i buy a Student ticket for the Dart.... (nobody slag the student D4 Dart thing !) I have to go to the ticket office where they check my student travel card and the machines have no option for student tickets.

its also the same on the Luas.

If you needed ID for that particular ticket then they shouldn't be on the machine if thats the case.

But why you would need ID for a weekly Adult ticket is beyond me.

Maybe a formal letter to the Irish rail head office outlining everything which you claim and what everybody else said should resolve this.

personally i don't think you did wrong here and i can see it as a genuine mistake.

Ham'nd'egger

robbie_998 wrote: »

But why you would need ID for a weekly Adult ticket is beyond me.

To stop multiples of people using the one ticket to travel on, the same as with other weekly passes. I have seen people on buses who had weekly tickets taken from them for this reason.

OP, did you get a ID card for this week or did you make alternative travel plans?

dearg lady

I'd imagine you need ID to link it to one person so it can't be transferred.

Any bus tickets I've ever used that need ID state this on the ticket...did it say that ID is required on the actual ticket itself?

You can buy tickets requiring ID from shops, the onus is on the person using the ticket to ensure they have the correct ID. It's a bit lousy as you genuinely didn't realise, unfortunately it's impossible for the ticket checker to be sure if you're genuine or not.

stinkle

When buying IR student tickets at machines or online, it asks you for your travelcard number which is then printed on the ticket so that the inspector can check. It's a bit odd that the same thing doesn't happen for the ticket you bought ie need ID card number on your actual ticket. In my case I only ever used my card on intercity routes ex Heuston, so maybe commuter tickets are different

BenShermin

I've travelled on weekly tickets for the DART a while back for a few months with no ID, I thought you only needed them for monthly and annual tickets:eek:. No member of IÉ staff told me this, even though I bought the ticket from a member of staff on a few occasions when the ticket office was quiet.

I'd say have a look at the Iarnród Éireann automatic ticketing machine again and ensure that there is nothing on the screen when purchasing said ticket about needing ID. I'd also closely scrutinise the ticket itself to make sure there's nothing on the ticket about needing ID or any strip on the ticket in which to write an ID number. Take photos of all this for proof.

If there's no mention of ID in this process I'd contest it. While the onus is on you to have the correct ticket it is mentioned in the IÉ charter that IÉ will always try to sell you the best ticket for your journey. In this case they didn't, even though they had serveral means of telling you that it wasn't the best ticket.

dave wilson

Hi there,
If you buy a season ticket from a tvm, check the ticket and under a blank box, it says to enter your id number in this box.

Hope this helps,
Dave.

dRNk SAnTA

Hi OP

I was fined once for a similar misunderstanding, so I sent the cheque with a letter explaining how the whole thing came about. I asked for their understanding and said I'd hope they'd return my cheque to me. They did, with a letter of apology. It was quite nice actually!

Carawaystick

Carrie, I'd go through the procedure of buying a new ticket and photographing each screen on the ticket machine as they appear on my phone. If it doesn't mention having an id card then how would you have known? I'd write to IÉ and mention this and mention that the inspector on the first day didn't say anything.

As the inspector said you cannot get a weekly ticket without an ID card and you did, then the inspector was incorrect.

Given that you describe the second inspector as "unpleasant" I'd point you to the customer charter which states:
"We expect our staff to:
be polite and helpful;"

which didn't happen also.


I'd also say that IÉ's conduct, if it was as stated by the OP may breach section 46 of the Consumer protection Act, as "A commercial practice is misleading if the trader omits or conceals material information that the average consumer would need, in the context, to make an informed transactional decision (“material information”) and such practice would be likely to cause the average consumer to make a transactional decision that the aver- age consumer would not otherwise make."

If the information about ID was concealed, then this section seems to be in play

goingnowhere

The ticket machine says in a big red box

This ticket is valid from day x to day y and where the accompanying CIE ID no is written on the ticket

There is then a CIE ID box on the ticket to fill in

carrieflem

Hi , thank you all so much for your helpful comments. I have taken a photo of the relevant machine which doesnt have any info on it only single, return or weekly tickets. I note on the ticket option for Student tickets it says after it in brackets (ID Required). They really should have that for weekly tickets to.


I have wrote them a letter,emailed it and faxed it :) including details of the helpful comments above. I will keep ye all posted on the outcome, hopefully it will be good, because €100 fine is what my train costs for a month :)

Carrie x

foggy_lad

no wonder genuine people are moving back to their cars or onto busses or any other transport when the national rail carrier treats regular customers like this!

Bluetonic

Discussing similar on LiveLine now.

It'll be on the podcast later I presume.

I.S.T.

What's to stop you from refusing to give your details and just walk away? Can the inspectors stop you leaving the station by force?

carrieflem

Just sent a nice letter this morning to them as im sure they are used to get lots of abuse etc.. just got a phone call there and they accepted that it was a geniune case and error so no fine :):) thank you all for your help again.

carrie x

Dante

The ticket inspectors are little rats, desperate to squeeze as much money as possible out of the public. They must get commission or something on everyone they rat money out of or something...

foggy_lad

carrieflem wrote: »

Just sent a nice letter this morning to them as im sure they are used to get lots of abuse etc.. just got a phone call there and they accepted that it was a geniune case and error so no fine :):) thank you all for your help again.

carrie x

delighted they saw the error of their ways

Max Power1

foggy_lad wrote: »

delighted they saw the error of their ways

They didnt though - they accepted that the OP had made a genuine error! Different kettle of fish

foggy_lad

Max Power1 wrote: »

They didnt though - they accepted that the OP had made a genuine error! Different kettle of fish

on the machine the option for weekly ticket does not state anywhere that you need id but it does state this if you were buying a student single or return or monthly return so it seems it was their mistake, either way they must not give two hoots for the few passengers they have left if they carry on like this.

Max Power1

foggy_lad wrote: »

on the machine the option for weekly ticket does not state anywhere that you need id but it does state this if you were buying a student single or return or monthly return so it seems it was their mistake, either way they must not give two hoots for the few passengers they have left if they carry on like this.

I know. I used to always travel with IE, and purchase weekly passes and I never had an ID - the inspectors were always fine and never asked for an ID so I genuinely didnt know it was a requirment until I read this thread.

Vic_08

foggy_lad wrote: »

on the machine the option for weekly ticket does not state anywhere that you need id but it does state this if you were buying a student single or return or monthly return so it seems it was their mistake, either way they must not give two hoots for the few passengers they have left if they carry on like this.

Is that a fact or are you just assuming it to be correct?

This image I took today of the first weekly ticket I selected at random on a TIM at Connolly today suggests otherwise.

looksee

goingnowhere wrote: »

The ticket machine says in a big red box

This ticket is valid from day x to day y and where the accompanying CIE ID no is written on the ticket

There is then a CIE ID box on the ticket to fill in

So if you are required to give an ID number, why does it issue a ticket at all?

steve-o

Vic_08 wrote: »

Is that a fact or are you just assuming it to be correct?

This image I took today of the first weekly ticket I selected at random on a TIM at Connolly today suggests otherwise.

In fairness, that's a pretty vague statement. How about something a bit more informative: "You must have a CIE issued Photo ID to purchase this ticket. You must write your ID number on the ticket."

Carawaystick

steve-o wrote: »

In fairness, that's a pretty vague statement. How about something a bit more informative: "You must have a CIE issued Photo ID to purchase this ticket. You must write your ID number on the ticket."

Or even, not issue the ticket until you insert your ID into the card slot, it reads the number off the ID and prints that on the ticket for you.

Ham'nd'egger

Vic_08 wrote: »

Is that a fact or are you just assuming it to be correct?

He is all too fond of assuming stuff like that for the heck of it and to hell with the consequences.

foggy_lad

carrieflem wrote: »

Hi , thank you all so much for your helpful comments. I have taken a photo of the relevant machine which doesnt have any info on it only single, return or weekly tickets. I note on the ticket option for Student tickets it says after it in brackets (ID Required). They really should have that for weekly tickets to.


I have wrote them a letter,emailed it and faxed it :) including details of the helpful comments above. I will keep ye all posted on the outcome, hopefully it will be good, because €100 fine is what my train costs for a month :)

Carrie x

just what i have read here

carrieflem

Our ticket machine in our local station which is about a year old doesnt say that at all . the writing in Red that is on the above picture is not on our machine, i gave irish rail a photo of the one i took which only states pay by credit card, cash etc , if it did i wouldnt of bought the ticket , lets hope they update their machines now.

carrie

foggy_lad

Hamndegger wrote: »

He is all too fond of assuming stuff like that for the heck of it and to hell with the consequences.

i notice you have not posted here but maybe you have no conflict of interest? but you are posting in commuting and transport and some of your posts are critical of those that are critical of irish rail.

Mr. Presentable

steve-o wrote: »

In fairness, that's a pretty vague statement. How about something a bit more informative: "You must have a CIE issued Photo ID to purchase this ticket. You must write your ID number on the ticket."

You don't need the ID to purchase the ticket. This allows people to buy for others. You need ID to use the ticket. Which is what it says on the machine in unclear language.

WhodahWoodah

I think that the ticket checker here should have been more lenient in the first place. The OP had actually bought and paid for the correct ticket. It's not like they were on the train with no ticket or had a cheaper ticket than they ought to have had. There was no revenue to protect here. All the OP was missing was the ID card which is something that I'm sure many people are unaware of. I hadn't heard of it before I read this and I use intercity quite often. In fairness I usually just buy the return ticket online but if I was going to be travelling all week I'd buy a weekly ticket. If the rule about the ID card isn't clearly stated on ALL ticket dispensing machines, ticket offices and the website then the only penalty there should be for not having one is that the ticket checker tells you to get one. It's no use having it written on the ticket because if you're looking at the ticket then you've already bought it and it's too late. Unless they now have photo machines in every railway station you won't have an ID in time for your train. They're the ones doing the selling, it should be their responsibility to give you all of the relevant facts. They certainly shouldn't be allowed to fine people for not knowing something that's only displayed on some of their ticket machines.

ellen_16

I had the exact same fine issued to me last May. I was getting a late train form Athenry to Athlone, the ticket office was closed with no conductor present and the automatic machine had no change. I tried many times to put in my 20e but it refused it every time. It was essential that I got on this train as I had school the next day, last minute leaving cert revision! I boarded the train hoping to explain my situation and the fact that I had no power over not being able to buy a ticket. He issued me with a fine and told me to appeal it. I rang the rpu the next day and e-mailed them, with no reply. This morning i received a letter stating that I had 7 days to pay a 117e fine or face prosecution. Any thoughts on how to deal with this?

markpb

ellen_16 wrote: »

Any thoughts on how to deal with this?

You should check this with Rail Users but I think the rules say that you must buy a ticket from a ticket office but make no reference to vending machines. I think this is because they don't sell all the types of tickets available.

Send a registered letter to them saying that the ticket office was closed, that you tried to use the vending machine but it wasn't working.

ellen_16

I had no feasible way of paying for a ticket which is the real problem which I have with them.

I intend on sending them a strongly worded letter, hopefully they will reply much sooner.

corktina

WhodahWoodah wrote: »

I think that the ticket checker here should have been more lenient in the first place. The OP had actually bought and paid for the correct ticket. It's not like they were on the train with no ticket or had a cheaper ticket than they ought to have had. There was no revenue to protect here. All the OP was missing was the ID card which is something that I'm sure many people are unaware of. I hadn't heard of it before I read this and I use intercity quite often. In fairness I usually just buy the return ticket online but if I was going to be travelling all week I'd buy a weekly ticket. If the rule about the ID card isn't clearly stated on ALL ticket dispensing machines, ticket offices and the website then the only penalty there should be for not having one is that the ticket checker tells you to get one. It's no use having it written on the ticket because if you're looking at the ticket then you've already bought it and it's too late. Unless they now have photo machines in every railway station you won't have an ID in time for your train. They're the ones doing the selling, it should be their responsibility to give you all of the relevant facts. They certainly shouldn't be allowed to fine people for not knowing something that's only displayed on some of their ticket machines.

There is revenue to protect here as it was a cheaper ticket purchased than should have been. Anyone knowingly buying that ticket hoping to get away with it would seem exactly the same as someone not reading the notice on the machine.

WhodahWoodah

I don't see how the OP had a cheaper ticket than they ought to Corktina. They bought a weekly ticket for a week's worth of journeys. Also the OP stated that on the particular machine that they bought the ticket from there was no red box with the warning about needing to have an accompanying ID. So they had the correct ticket, didn't have all the information and so ended up on the train wihout the ID. They weren't "knowingly" trying to get away with anything. If they had the ID Irish Rail wouldn't have ended up with any extra money as the weekly ticket was already paid for regardless. If Irish Rail update all of their machines so that without exception every single one gives the warning about the ID before the customer parts with any money then fair enough, but as long as some machines warn you and some don't then I don't think they have a leg to stand on.

loobylou

ellen_16 wrote: »

I had the exact same fine issued to me last May. I was getting a late train form Athenry to Athlone, the ticket office was closed with no conductor present and the automatic machine had no change. I tried many times to put in my 20e but it refused it every time. It was essential that I got on this train as I had school the next day, last minute leaving cert revision! I boarded the train hoping to explain my situation and the fact that I had no power over not being able to buy a ticket. He issued me with a fine and told me to appeal it. I rang the rpu the next day and e-mailed them, with no reply. This morning i received a letter stating that I had 7 days to pay a 117e fine or face prosecution. Any thoughts on how to deal with this?

This thread from Legal Discussions may be of interest to you, a somewhat similar situation.