fluke dose for dairy cows

whelan1

going to start this again - hope no one trolls it again:mad:- went to local co-op today , so trodax and flukiver are out i assumed you could give a white dose that does for fluke and worms nilzan says do not use in cows that produce milk for human consumption was another white dose , cant remember than name it was the same , so are we supposed to let the cows die of fluke ... now i dont want to go in to the discussion of copper/cobalt or whatever ,but on an animal welfare point of view i think they have got it wrong this time

Pacoa

Zanil is the only one now i think.

whelan1

the fella in shop said nilzan is the same as zanil , also zanil has been hard to get for the last 2 months

LostCovey

Whelan1,

It is very unsatisfactory, but no need to panic.

I think the only flukicides you can now use in dairy cows are ones that have oxyclozanide or albendazole as their active ingredient. Albendazole has a short withdrawal time, but as far as I remember from using it in the past you need to use a higher dose rate to target fluke (maybe double the standard worm dose? better check the label, it will all be there).

I don't know why Nilzan is contraindicated in dairy cows. In any case, Zanil/Nilzan will continue to be hard to get because their production was scaled down - they were about to go off the market - and then the whole rumen fluke story kicked off demand, and I don't think the manufacturers are geared up for that level of output.

See below from the Irish Medicines Board website - dated March 2010. i don't think there has been any change since.

Incidentally, white drenches are not OK, triclabendazole is also contraindicated for dairy cows.

It's a pity not to have the convenience of an injection for fluke any more, dosing adults cows is no fun unless you have good help and/or facilities.

Interesting that you would take the part of someone blithely offering dangerous, misleading advice and regard the person who points that out as a troll.

But there ya go.

LostCovey





MEDICINES THAT CAN CONTINUE TO BE USED WITH STRICT ADHERENCE TO WITHDRAWAL PERIODS INDICATED

Name of product Active ingredient

Albex 10% Albendazole

Albex 2.5% Albendazole

Endospec 10% SC Albendazole

Endospec 2.5% SC Albendazole

Keelogane SC Albendazole

Osmonds Flexiben 10% SC Albendazole

Tramazole 10% Albendazole

Tramazole 2.5% Albendazole

Valbazen 10% Albendazole

Zanil Oxyclozanide

Pacoa

Its a pity closamectin pour on can't be used. I used it on the cows this winter and it was a hell of a lot easier than dosing or injecting.

kake

Hi whelan1,

Zanil is readily available in Northern Ireland. My dad has not had a problem sourcing it and he has a good demand for it. But its on prescription.

My Ma keeps a few organic dairy cows and she uses a copper supplement to treat for fluke. Dad sources it from a manufacturer in England. They are literally just bluestone bullets, quite similar in size to all trace bullets and can be administered with the same gun. They are approved for organic cattle and are pretty effective. We have slaughtered a few cull cows and none have shown any traces of fluke. I can get you the name of them if you are interested???

Kat

LostCovey

kake wrote: »

Hi whelan1,

Zanil is readily available in Northern Ireland. My dad has not had a problem sourcing it and he has a good demand for it. But its on prescription.

My Ma keeps a few organic dairy cows and she uses a copper supplement to treat for fluke. Dad sources it from a manufacturer in England. They are literally just bluestone bullets, quite similar in size to all trace bullets and can be administered with the same gun. They are approved for organic cattle and are pretty effective. We have slaughtered a few cull cows and none have shown any traces of fluke. I can get you the name of them if you are interested???

Kat

They work best in cattle that never had liver fluke. Can you let us know the brand and manufacturer that is making these claims?

LostCovey

kake

LostCovey wrote: »

They work best in cattle that never had liver fluke.
LostCovey

That's not what the Organic Advisers in the Ag Dep in northern Ireland say, nor is it what my dad said, and he should know, he is a vet.

Can you let us know the brand and manufacturer that is making these claims?

The brand that he sources is called Coppersure (I think that's how its spelled) and it is sourced from an organic supplier called Cenetaur in Essex. It is stamped and approved for use by the british veterinary council on the box that it comes in.

leg wax

whelan how come you did not do the milking cows when they were dry.

whelan1

leg wax wrote: »

whelan how come you did not do the milking cows when they were dry.

if you read my opening post that is when i do them but you cant do them anymore with the products i had been using , sorry just re read it i hadnt stated that there it was on another thread

leg wax

whelan1 wrote: »

if you read my opening post that is when i do them but you cant do them anymore with the products i had been using , sorry just re read it i hadnt stated that there it was on another thread

if you used them before in the dry period why can you not use them now

whelan1

flukiver and trodax are not licensed to be used in lactating cows or during the dry cow period

LostCovey

kake wrote: »

That's not what the Organic Advisers in the Ag Dep in northern Ireland say,

Can you point me to where they have published such advice, because this would be totally off-the-wall advice to give out - if they did.

kake wrote: »

That's not what the Organic Advisers in the Ag Dep in northern Ireland say, nor is it what my dad said, and he should know, he is a vet.

Well he should, but he obviously doesn't. This is pure fiction, and dangerously misleading in the face of the epidemic of liver fluke that has been seen for the last three years

kake wrote: »

The brand that he sources is called Coppersure (I think that's how its spelled) and it is sourced from an organic supplier called Cenetaur in Essex.

All I can say is I can't google either, but that proves nothing either way.

kake wrote: »

It is stamped and approved for use by the british veterinary council on the box that it comes in.

This is worrying. There is no such entity as the British Veterinary Council.

LostCovey

leg wax

whelan1 wrote: »

flukiver and trodax are not licensed to be used in lactating cows or during the dry cow period

whats stopping you from useing them. whats the withdraw time for slaughter.

whelan1

afair its 42 days for slaughter , my cows get bovaclox extra dry cows which have a 42 day milk withdrawal anyways

LostCovey

leg wax wrote: »

whats stopping you from useing them. whats the withdraw time for slaughter.

They have been banned in cows producing milk for human consumption

snowman707

LostCovey wrote: »

They have been banned in cows producing milk for human consumption

you can't say you weren't forewarned, I mentioned it last February


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055832106

kake

This is worrying. There is no such entity as the British Veterinary Council

Hey Lost,

Don't stress your wee head there with worry. I do apoligise if I misquoted the BVA as the British Veterinary Council. I'm not an expert, not do i claim to be. I also have to rectify another spelling mistake that i realist that i made, after speaking to the da. The copper Bolus is called Coppasure and it is manufactured under licence by cenetaur.

Well he should, but he obviously doesn't. This is pure fiction, and dangerously misleading in the face of the epidemic of liver fluke that has been seen for the last three years

How polite you are!! I can assure you that my dad is a professional in his work. Not alone does he do everything by the book, but he always ensures to research any products that he uses on animals or sells to farmers to use on animals to ensure that they are safe and approved by the BVA. While he does agree with your point that there has been an epidemic of fluke in the last number of years and he would recommends that non-organic farmers use an approved Fluke treatment for all animals succeptable to fluke.
He would point out that the epidemic of fluke that has been seen in recent years stems from the over use of fluke treatments that end in "AZOLE" to which a lot of fluke have become immune. Research by NF Suttle which was published in Volume 17 pages 67 to 74 of the British cattle Veterinary Association Journal in 2007 goes into great detail on this.

Can you point me to where they have published such advice, because this would be totally off-the-wall advice to give out - if they did.

Hopefully i can give you these details correctly and not confuse you and cause you further worry.

Laven, R. A. Livesey, C. T. (2005) The diagnosis of copper related disease, Part 2: Copper responsive disorders. Cattle Practice. British Cattle Veterinary Association, Frampton-on-Severn, UK 13: 1, 55-60.

The above named document can be obtained from the the BVA, its their Journal and its volume 13 (just in case you can't figure that out). It gives detailed results of lab research carried out on over 10,000 organic cattle over a 10 year period in the uk. Their research gives detailed information about copper levels in various types of soil. They provide scientific research on how low copper levels in animals make both the rumen and the liver weaker and more prone to infestation from fluke. They link low levels of copper in animals to fluke. They tested thousands of animals and found that a shortage of absorbable copper leads to a rapid depletion of liver stores and a drop in plasma copper levels. There is a lowering of caeruloplasmin synthesis (around 90% of plasma copper is found as caeruloplasmin) and a reduction in cuproenzyme activities in the erythrocytes and tissues which ultimately leave the liver prone to attack from fluke. They carried out clinical trials which increased the copper available to animals and found a high percentage success rate. This involved 3 different methods which included the most successful, administering a copper bolus to cattle which gave a controlled and measured dose of copper. The second method that they trialed and monitored was the spreading of bluestone on land that had been tested as being low in copper. The third method was adding copper to the drinking water. All 3 methods were successful, but obviously the first method was most controlled and considered to be the safest.

Other research has also been carried out on the links between copper and fluke and published in various veterinary Journals. These include:

Cerone, S. I. Sansinanea, A. S. Streitenberger, S. A. Garcia, M. C. Auza, N. J. (1998a) The effect of copper deficiency on the peripheral blood cells of cattle. Veterinary Research Communications 22: 1, 47-57.

Cerone, S. Sansinanea, A. Streitenberger, S. Garcia, C. Auza, N. (1998b) Bovine neutrophil functionality in molybdenum-induced copper deficiency. Nutrition Research 18: 3, 557-566.

Du, Z. Hemken, R. W. Harmon, R. J. (1996) Copper metabolism of Holstein and Jersey cows and heifers fed diets high in cupric sulfate or copper proteinate. Journal of Dairy Science 79: 10, 1873-1880.

Davies, D. G. Baker, M. H. (1974) Blood copper status of beef herds in mid-Wales. Veterinary Record 94: 24, 561-563.

Gengelbach, G. P. Ward, J. D. Spears, J. W. Brown, T. T., Jr. (1997) Effects of copper deficiency and copper deficiency coupled with high dietary iron or molybdenum on phagocytic cell function and response of calves to a respiratory disease challenge. Journal of Animal Science 75: 4, 1112-1118.

Givens, D. I. Hopkins, J. R. (1978) The availability of copper to grazing ruminants in parts of North Yorkshire. Journal of Agricultural Science, UK 91: 1, 13-16.

Greene, L. W. Kasari, T. R. Herd, D. B. (1995) Organic sources of mineral for ruminants. Veterinary Clinical Nutrition 2: 1, 22-27.

Hemingway, R. G. Parkins, J. J. Ritchie, N. S. (1997) Sustained-release boluses to supply trace elements and vitamins to cattle. Veterinary Journal 153: 2, 221-224.

Leech, A. Howarth, R. J. Thornton, I. Lewis, G. (1982) Incidence of bovine copper deficiency in England and the Welsh borders. Veterinary Record 111: 10, 203-204.

MacDonald, D. C. (1980) Trace element deficiencies in north-east Scotland: to control or prevent. Veterinary Annual 20: 209-214.

MacNaeidhe, F. S. (2001) Pasture management and composition as a means of minimizing mineral disorders in organic livestock Proceedings of the 5th NAHWOA Workshop, Rødding, Denmark

Reid, R. S. Attaelmannan, M. A. (1998) NMR studies of copper speciation in the bovine rumen environment. Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry 69: 1/2, 59-65.

Suttle, N. F. (1992) Trace element disorders. In: Bovine medicine: diseases and husbandry. Ed. Andrews, A. H. Blowey, R. W. Boyd, H. Eddy, R. G. Blackwell Scientific Publications Ltd, Oxford, UK: 1992. 261-270.

Suttle, N. F. (2002) Copper deficiency - how has the disease and its diagnosis changed in the last 15 years? Cattle Practice. British Cattle Veterinary Association, Frampton-on-Severn, UK 10: 4, 275-278.

Ward, J. D. Spears, J. W. (1999) The effects of low-copper diets with or without supplemental molybdenum on specific immune responses of stressed cattle. Journal of Animal Science 77: 1, 230-237.

PS. Its a bit long winded I Know, but he sent me an email and I didn't want to leave any of it out :P
Kat

leg wax

LostCovey wrote: »

They have been banned in cows producing milk for human consumption

this is my point so what whos going to know, if the meat is all right after 42 days so will the milk, but sure you go off and buy the more exspencive products that will do the same job and be back on here moaning theres no money in farming:P:P:P lost please dont rise to it not interested in your answer.:D

blue5000

I can see where we are going (AGAIN) with this thread......

whelan1

yup the usual :rolleyes:

reilig

Not even going to get involved cause as soon as i post it'll be locked!!!!

Sh1t......

Sorry folks :eek:

leg wax

sorry folks

LostCovey

leg wax wrote: »

this is my point so what whos going to know, if the meat is all right after 42 days so will the milk, but sure you go off and buy the more exspencive products that will do the same job and be back on here moaning theres no money in farming:P:P:P lost please dont rise to it not interested in your answer.:D

It's banned because there are detectable residues in the milk afterwards. These are tested for and there are fines/penalties if they are detected.

LostCovey

LostCovey

kake wrote: »

Hey Lost,

Don't stress your wee head there with worry. I do apoligise if I misquoted the BVA as the British Veterinary Council.

No need to apologise, but you also implied the BVA endorse the product for treating cattle for liver fluke. If it is endorsed by the BVA, it is as a treatment for copper deficiency. Not as a flukicide. Copper treats copper deficiency, no problem with that. Giving copper to animals that are not copper deficient risks copper poisoning. Ask your dad.

This is about liver fluke (see the title of the thread).

kake wrote: »

Not alone does he do everything by the book, but he always ensures to research any products that he uses on animals or sells to farmers to use on animals to ensure that they are safe and approved by the BVA. While he does agree with your point that there has been an epidemic of fluke in the last number of years and he would recommends that non-organic farmers use an approved Fluke treatment for all animals succeptable to fluke.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I never questioned any of that. What I challenged was your claim that your dad (the vet) approved of copper as a treatment for liver fluke disease. It's not, and I do not believe he gives out such advice.

kake wrote: »

He would point out that the epidemic of fluke that has been seen in recent years stems from the over use of fluke treatments that end in "AZOLE" to which a lot of fluke have become immune. Research by NF Suttle which was published in Volume 17 pages 67 to 74 of the British cattle Veterinary Association Journal in 2007 goes into great detail on this.

Only one actually - triclabendazole. There is no evidence of resistance to the other one, albendazole.

kake wrote: »

I didn't want to leave any of it out :P[/SIZE][/FONT]
Kat

Obviously. But instead of blowing up the font size to motorway roadsign dimensions, maybe you should have actually READ IT YOURSELF?

All of those papers relate to using copper to treat copper deficiency, and the effects of same. This is a discussion about liver fluke disease for which you advocated the use of copper sulphate. NONE of those papers you quote make ANY reference to that. There is no basis for believing that, and it's ill-informed, misleading and dangerous to give out such advice.

I have no quibbles with using copper to treat copper deficiency and have done it myself.

LostCovey

LostCovey

kake wrote: »

He would point out that the epidemic of fluke that has been seen in recent years stems from the over use of fluke treatments that end in "AZOLE" to which a lot of fluke have become immune.

He is mistaken about the overall point you make here by the way, the fluke epidemic has been mostly down to weather - mild wet winters, and wet wet summers. Fluke resistance to triclabendazole is very localised.

It does occur, in some localities, but it is not the cause of the epidemic.

LostCovey

reilig

Will you give it a rest. You asked her to provide documented evidence that backs up her post and she did. If you don't agree with it, then say it straight out instead of trying to discredit her post by talking about font size and telling her that her references are misleading when you haven't even read it yourself. The only person that you have discredited with a post like that is yourself and you have brought another thread to a low point when Whelan specifically asked you not to.

Well Done!!!!!!

LostCovey wrote: »

No need to apologise, but you also implied the BVA endorse the product for treating cattle for liver fluke. If it is endorsed by the BVA, it is as a treatment for copper deficiency. Not as a flukicide. Copper treats copper deficiency, no problem with that. Giving copper to animals that are not copper deficient risks copper poisoning. Ask your dad.

This is about liver fluke (see the title of the thread).



I never questioned any of that. What I challenged was your claim that your dad (the vet) approved of copper as a treatment for liver fluke disease. It's not, and I do not believe he gives out such advice.



Only one actually - triclabendazole. There is no evidence of resistance to the other one, albendazole.




Obviously. But instead of blowing up the font size to motorway roadsign dimensions, maybe you should have actually READ IT YOURSELF?

All of those papers relate to using copper to treat copper deficiency, and the effects of same. This is a discussion about liver fluke disease for which you advocated the use of copper sulphate. NONE of those papers you quote make ANY reference to that. There is no basis for believing that, and it's ill-informed, misleading and dangerous to give out such advice.

I have no quibbles with using copper to treat copper deficiency and have done it myself.

LostCovey

LostCovey

reilig wrote: »

Will you give it a rest. You asked her to provide documented evidence that backs up her post and she did. If you don't agree with it, then say it straight out instead of trying to discredit her post by talking about font size and telling her that her references are misleading when you haven't even read it yourself. The only person that you have discredited with a post like that is yourself and you have brought another thread to a low point when Whelan specifically asked you not to.

Well Done!!!!!!

Reilig,

She claimed copper is a treatment for liver fluke. It's not.

She said she had references to prove it. They don't.

Copper is a treatment for copper deficiency. Her references prove that. Nobody questioned that.

Giving copper/copper sulphate to animals that are not copper deficient risks copper poisoning which is fatal.

Advising people that copper treats liver fluke is dangerous
- because it does not
- because it is a poisoning risk

Let me worry about my credibility, you have enough on your hands.

Whelan1 started the thread, she doesn't own it, and if she wants to decide the content of the discussion in advance, this might not be the best forum for her to start them.

Especially if the copper fans are in town.

LostCovey

whelan1

give me strength:rolleyes:

reilig

thank you, i agree with you. You're the best!!!!!!!!!!!

LostCovey wrote: »

Reilig,

She claimed copper is a treatment for liver fluke. It's not.

She said she had references to prove it. They don't.

Copper is a treatment for copper deficiency. Her references prove that. Nobody questioned that.

Giving copper/copper sulphate to animals that are not copper deficient risks copper poisoning which is fatal.

Advising people that copper treats liver fluke is dangerous
- because it does not
- because it is a poisoning risk

Let me worry about my credibility, you have enough on your hands.

Whelan1 started the thread, she doesn't own it, and if she wants to decide the content of the discussion in advance, this might not be the best forum for her to start them.

Especially if the copper fans are in town.

LostCovey

whelan1

reilig are you well ?

reilig

whelan1 wrote: »

reilig are you well ?

Never better. Come on, you have to agree with the man, he's obviously an expert in his field. Did he post on your thread about about off farm jobs??? I bet he's an animal pathologist or something and farms 200 head of cows on the side.

How can you disagree with the guy. I bet if we took more of his advice on board, we'd all be better farmers. His posts in the shooting section are inspirational and a lot of people go onto the nature and bird watching forum on a daily basis just to see if he has posted some new inspirational post.........some days there are even 2.

How can you not agree with the guy.

whelan1

yes this guy obviously has a better knowledge than everyone else on this forum

LostCovey

Careful Now.

Down With This Sort Of Thing

This is an irony-free zone.

Not iron-free, in case someone suggests giving it copper.

LC

reilig

LostCovey wrote: »

Careful Now.

Down With This Sort Of Thing

This is an irony-free zone.

Not iron-free, in case someone suggests giving it copper.

LC

Totall correct, as usual. Great post!!!!!

LostCovey

kake wrote: »

Its a bit long winded I Know, but he sent me an email and I didn't want to leave any of it out
Kat

Well Kake, it's been over a month. Did he come up with any evidence for copper sulphate killing liver fluke yet.

LostCovey

5live

Meeeeooooowwwww. Take a deep breath guys. And again. Dont you think we have enough to fight with ouyside the farm gate without eating the face off each other inside. If people want to treat liverfluke with copper then go ahead. It cant be any more psychotic than useing homeopathy!!!! Copper sulphate is approved for killing the snail that hosts the fluke. I am intregued about copper curing acute fluke though. My vet reckons that it could be next year before trials on residues are finalised and approved. And not all will be approved or have useful withdrawls for dairy stock. According to him it was our beloved friends in teagasc who improved the testing. Strange that we could get procecuted for not looking after stock properly and also for dosing them to look after them properly. LOVE THIS COUNTRY:o

reilig

5live wrote: »

Meeeeooooowwwww. Take a deep breath guys. And again. Dont you think we have enough to fight with ouyside the farm gate without eating the face off each other inside. If people want to treat liverfluke with copper then go ahead. It cant be any more psychotic than useing homeopathy!!!! Copper sulphate is approved for killing the snail that hosts the fluke. I am intregued about copper curing acute fluke though. My vet reckons that it could be next year before trials on residues are finalised and approved. And not all will be approved or have useful withdrawls for dairy stock. According to him it was our beloved friends in teagasc who improved the testing. Strange that we could get procecuted for not looking after stock properly and also for dosing them to look after them properly. LOVE THIS COUNTRY:o

Yea, I helped a neighbour administer a copper dose for fluke treatment on organic cattle earlier this week. He has been using it for the last 50 years on his farm. He's very confident of the results that it brings (proven or not). He slaughters and sells his organic meat at local market (keeeping in mind appropriate withdrawal times as recommended in Organic Farming) and claims that he or his butcher has never seen traces of fluke in the livers of the animals that he is slaughteriing.

Copper sulphate is approved for treatiing the snail allright. And despite some people claiming that it is a harsh chemical, it is still listed as an antidote in the World Health Organization's ATC code V03.

LostCovey

reilig wrote: »

Yea, I helped a neighbour administer a copper dose for fluke treatment on organic cattle earlier this week. He has been using it for the last 50 years on his farm. He's very confident of the results that it brings (proven or not). He slaughters and sells his organic meat at local market (keeeping in mind appropriate withdrawal times as recommended in Organic Farming) and claims that he or his butcher has never seen traces of fluke in the livers of the animals that he is slaughteriing.

Copper sulphate is approved for treatiing the snail allright. And despite some people claiming that it is a harsh chemical, it is still listed as an antidote in the World Health Organization's ATC code V03.

As an antidote to what, Reilig?

LostCovey

LostCovey

reilig wrote: »

Copper sulphate is approved for treatiing the snail allright.

By whom?

I don't think any molluscicides are approved to control snails in Ireland.

I think this is inaccurate advice, Reilig.

LostCovey

LostCovey

reilig wrote: »

Yea, I helped a neighbour administer a copper dose for fluke treatment on organic cattle earlier this week. He has been using it for the last 50 years on his farm. He's very confident of the results that it brings (proven or not). He slaughters and sells his organic meat at local market (keeeping in mind appropriate withdrawal times as recommended in Organic Farming) and claims that he or his butcher has never seen traces of fluke in the livers of the animals that he is slaughteriing.

Copper sulphate is approved for treatiing the snail allright. And despite some people claiming that it is a harsh chemical, it is still listed as an antidote in the World Health Organization's ATC code V03.

Reilig,

This is the second time you have mentioned this copper dose for liver fluke. What is it and is it a licenced product?

LostCovey

older by the day

Ordering doses here, I usually gives the cows a fluke dose and worm injection. But what about albex at drying and zanil later. Catch the stomach fluke as well