Eating, eating, eating like a carniverous horse.

Waestrel

How do you do it? To be serious about putting on the muscle I have read that I need to eat (for my weight 85kg) about 150 g of protein a day! How can any normal person get that into themselves? its about 20 eggs a day, or three steaks, or 10 cans of tuna!

I just cant see how it can be healthy to eat that much! How do you guys do it? Or is it that i need to man up and convert my oesophagus into a high velocity hose pipe direct to my gut?

colman1212

ok well say for example you eat
3 eggs = 37.5g
3 chicken breasts = 3 x 30g = 90g
protein shake = 50g

---

Total = 177,5g

Also you get loads of protein from milk, cheese, oats, nuts.
To be honest I eat a hell of a lot more than 150g of protein per day I'd say!!
Whats your diet like generally?!

Waestrel

My understanding is eggs are at best 7g each.

Chicken breast about 25g

My diet could be considered healthy, ( lots of veggies, little junk food) but dont eat enough protein, or often enough per day. Possibly the no 1 sin of weightlifting.

Tragamin2k2

ive found digestive enzymes help me eat alot more.usually i would finish a dinner and be bloated etc and not want to eat for another 4ish hours but now i finish a meal and go looking for more food about 10 mins later and constantly snacking. trec digest plus are the ones i have

AntiVirus

Drink lots of milk and eat peanut butter with a spoon!

cc87

Tie down your exercise program first before worrying about your diet. If your training hard enough to make the gains you want to make you will be hungry enough to eat enough

Waestrel

This is basically my workout.

I don't follow it exact, but its pretty much what i do. A fairly standard three day split.


Monday (Chest/Shoulder/Triceps)

Flat Bench Press – 3x8
Incline Dumbbell Bench – 3x8
Skull Crushers – 3x8 (similar to lying tricep extensions)
Close Grip Bench Press – 3x8
Seated Dumbbell Military Press -3x8
Lateral Dumbbell Raises – 3x8


Wednesday (Back/Biceps)

Dead lifts – 3x8
Bent over one arm Dumbbell rows – 3x8
Chin Ups 3x8 (Or Lat pull downs if you can’t do chins yet)
Barbell Bicep Curl -3x8
One arm Dumbbell hammer Curls – 3x8


Friday (Legs/Abs)

Barbell Squats – 3x8
Dumbbell Lunges – 3x8
Calf Raises-4x10
Abdominal workout (Crunches, leg raises, whatever)

taken from

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17401146

Creasy_bear

Waestrel wrote: »

This is basically my workout.

I don't follow it exact, but its pretty much what i do. A fairly standard three day split.


Monday (Chest/Shoulder/Triceps)

Flat Bench Press – 3x8
Incline Dumbbell Bench – 3x8
Skull Crushers – 3x8 (similar to lying tricep extensions)
Close Grip Bench Press – 3x8
Seated Dumbbell Military Press -3x8
Lateral Dumbbell Raises – 3x8


Wednesday (Back/Biceps)

Dead lifts – 3x8
Bent over one arm Dumbbell rows – 3x8
Chin Ups 3x8 (Or Lat pull downs if you can’t do chins yet)
Barbell Bicep Curl -3x8
One arm Dumbbell hammer Curls – 3x8


Friday (Legs/Abs)

Barbell Squats – 3x8
Dumbbell Lunges – 3x8
Calf Raises-4x10
Abdominal workout (Crunches, leg raises, whatever)

taken from

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17401146

where do ye learn all the names for all these things

Is there anyone on this forum that would do up a programme for someone that wants to put on weight ?

Waestrel

Creasy_bear wrote: »

where do ye learn all the names for all these things

Is there anyone on this forum that would do up a programme for someone that wants to put on weight ?

Wikipedia is a good place to learn the names, most of them are self explanatory anyway.

d'Oracle

Waestrel wrote: »

How do you do it? To be serios about putting on teh muscle i have read that i need to eat (for my weight 85kg) about 150 g of protein a day! How can any normal person get that into themselves? its about 20 eggs a day, or three steaks, or 10 cans of tuna!

I just cant see how it can be healthy to eat that much! How do you guys do it? Or is it that i need to man up and convert my oesophagus into a high velocity hose pipe direct to my gut?

5 large eggs for breakfast, a half-pound of chicken breast and about 2 litres of milk will get you over 150g of protein.

Milk is a very easy way to get more calories and protein.

If you have to ask this then it wouldn't be a big step to say you probably dont need the curls, skull crushers, two of the bench variations or calf raises.

Creasy_bear

How do you do it? To be serious about putting on the muscle I have read that I need to eat (for my weight 85kg) about 150 g of protein a day!

how do you work that out , what would it be for a person weighing 70kg

cc87

Creasy_bear wrote: »

how do you work that out , what would it be for a person weighing 70kg

I might be wrong but depending on what source you use its 1.5-2g of protein per Kg bodyweight.

So in your case it would be between 105-140g per day.

Like i said opinions differ and AFAIK no scientific study has found the "perfect" number.

Greenmachine

Waestrel wrote: »

How do you do it? To be serious about putting on the muscle I have read that I need to eat (for my weight 85kg) about 150 g of protein a day! How can any normal person get that into themselves? its about 20 eggs a day, or three steaks, or 10 cans of tuna!

I just cant see how it can be healthy to eat that much! How do you guys do it? Or is it that i need to man up and convert my oesophagus into a high velocity hose pipe direct to my gut?

Tuna contains about 27gr of protein per 100 grams. A can contains baout 130 grams drained for a gorgeous 35 grams of protein. So using your figure of 150grams of protein 4 cans would be closer to the mark.

Armedocr

cc87 wrote: »

I might be wrong but depending on what source you use its 1.5-2g of protein per Kg bodyweight.

So in your case it would be between 105-140g per day.

Like i said opinions differ and AFAIK no scientific study has found the "perfect" number.

I dunno where you heard that dude. The norm for gaining mass is at least 1.5g of protein per POUND of bodyweight.

At 85kg that's about 280g of protein a day. Really it isnt that hard to get in. 130g of tuna has around 31g of protein. I usually have about 260g of tuna in a salad with some milk. It all adds up.

cc87

Armedocr wrote: »

I dunno where you heard that dude. The norm for gaining mass is at least 1.5g of protein per POUND of bodyweight.

At 85kg that's about 280g of protein a day. Really it isnt that hard to get in. 130g of tuna has around 31g of protein. I usually have about 260g of tuna in a salad with some milk. It all adds up.

Like i said sources and opinions differ, some say per Kg others say per pound but in general these are based on anecdotal evidence or opinion not fact. IMO the need for protein is exaggerated because the supplement industry is worth ridiculous amounts of money.

Finding articles seems to be the cool thing here these days

A Critical Examination of Dietary Protein Requirements, Benefits, and Excesses in Athletes.
International Journal of Sport Nutrition & Exercise Metabolism

There is likely no other dietary component that inspires as much debate, insofar as athletes are concerned, as protein. How much dietary protein is required, optimal, or excessive? Dietary guidelines from a variety of sources have settled on an adequate dietary protein intake for those over the age of 19 of ∼0.8-0.9 g protein·kg body weight. According to U.S. and Canadian dietary reference intakes, the recommended allowance for protein of 0.8 g protein·kg< is "the average daily intake level that is sufficient to meet the nutrient requirement of nearly all [∼98%]… healthy individuals". The panel also stated, "in view of the lack of compelling evidence to the contrary, no additional dietary protein is suggested for healthy adults undertaking resistance or endurance exercise". Currently, no group or groups of scientists involved in establishing dietary guidelines see a need for any statement that athletes or people engaging in regular physical activity require more protein than their sedentary counterparts. Popular magazines, numerous Web sites, trainers, and many athletes decry protein intakes even close to those recommended. Even joint position stands from policy-setting groups state that "protein recommendations for endurance athletes are 1.2 to 1.4 g/kg body weight per day, whereas those for resistance and strength-trained athletes may be as high as 1.6 to 1.7 g/kg body weight per day". The divide between those setting dietary protein requirements and those who might be making practical recommendations for athletes appears substantial, but ultimately, most athletes indicate that they consume protein at levels beyond even the highest recommendations. Thus, one might conclude that any debate on protein "requirements" for athletes is inconsequential; however, a critical analysis of existing and new data reveals novel ideas and concepts that may represent some common ground between these apparently conflicted groups. The goal of this review was to provide a critical and thorough analysis of current data on protein requirements in an attempt to provide some guidance to athletes, trainers, coaches, and sport dietitians on athletes' protein intake. In addition, an effort was made to clearly distinguish between "required" dietary protein, "optimal" intakes, and intakes that are likely "excessive," perhaps not from the standpoint of health, but certainly from the standpoint of potentially compromised performance

Armedocr

Tbh I think that's a pretty silly statement. Most people with any cop on know not to listen the bs sup companys say.

But there are plenty of trainers/coaches/contest prep guys who talk about the need for a good amount of protein. Iron addict, Dante Trudel, Poliquin state that 1.5g per lb should be the minimum amount of protein consumed. Others like Shelby Starnes would also agree.

The advice from qualified professionals that have decades of experience training clients and the BS that companies like Muscle Tech spew are worlds apart.

cc87

Armedocr wrote: »

Tbh I think that's a pretty silly statement. Most people with any cop on know not to listen the bs sup companys say.

But there are plenty of trainers/coaches/contest prep guys who talk about the need for a good amount of protein. Iron addict, Dante Trudel, Poliquin state that 1.5g per lb should be the minimum amount of protein consumed. Others like Shelby Starnes would also agree.

The advice from qualified professionals that have decades of experience training clients and the BS that companies like Muscle Tech spew are worlds apart.

Like i said, anecdotal.

But, for the craic, IronAddicts, sponsored by supp companies; Poliquin, has his own sup company; Bodybuilders.....dietary requirements far removed from the average gym goer.

I have other studies to show that the extra protein requirement is based in opinion and not fact as well. Oh and all the studies do say per Kg BW not lb

Armedocr

Have you ever read any of Iron Addicts stuff?? He doesn't get paid to use any companies stuff and never mentions companies in his articles. Infact he doesn't even use whey, mainly milk, egg and gemma protein along with BCAA's.

He has often stated that if you get more than 30/40% of your daily protein intake from supplements your doing it wrong....seems kinda counter intuitive from someone sponsored by supp companies.

You can use the company excuse all you want but a high protein diet is one of the only things strength coaches constantly agree on.

Honestly I would be astounded if a 70kg male was able to make serious gains on 105gs of protein a day. That's 420 calories, I'd hate to see the rest of the diet.

cc87

Armedocr wrote: »

Honestly I would be astounded if a 70kg male was able to make serious gains on 105gs of protein a day. That's 420 calories, I'd hate to see the rest of the diet.

Are you saying he needs more protein in order to aid recovery or that more of his daily calory intake needs to come from protein?? They are 2 different things.

zenno

Waestrel wrote: »

How do you do it? To be serious about putting on the muscle I have read that I need to eat (for my weight 85kg) about 150 g of protein a day! How can any normal person get that into themselves? its about 20 eggs a day, or three steaks, or 10 cans of tuna!

I just cant see how it can be healthy to eat that much! How do you guys do it? Or is it that i need to man up and convert my oesophagus into a high velocity hose pipe direct to my gut?

well if you want to put on weight fast you might want to bake a few hash brownies, the one's that are the forbidden herb. it will exite the appetite and believe me you will get the munchies forsure.

Armedocr

cc87 wrote: »

Are you saying he needs more protein in order to aid recovery or that more of his daily calory intake needs to come from protein?? They are 2 different things.

You need a sufficient amount for recovery, more to gain. For recovery alone I would stick with at least a gram per lb of BW.


As for the diet, taking me as an example. At 90kg taking in 135g of protein a day would leave me with at least 2300calories to make up. That's way too much carb/fat for my liking.

Brian?

Waestrel wrote: »

This is basically my workout.

I don't follow it exact, but its pretty much what i do. A fairly standard three day split.


Monday (Chest/Shoulder/Triceps)

Flat Bench Press – 3x8
Incline Dumbbell Bench – 3x8
Skull Crushers – 3x8 (similar to lying tricep extensions)
Close Grip Bench Press – 3x8
Seated Dumbbell Military Press -3x8
Lateral Dumbbell Raises – 3x8


Wednesday (Back/Biceps)

Dead lifts – 3x8
Bent over one arm Dumbbell rows – 3x8
Chin Ups 3x8 (Or Lat pull downs if you can’t do chins yet)
Barbell Bicep Curl -3x8
One arm Dumbbell hammer Curls – 3x8


Friday (Legs/Abs)

Barbell Squats – 3x8
Dumbbell Lunges – 3x8
Calf Raises-4x10
Abdominal workout (Crunches, leg raises, whatever)

taken from

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17401146

What are you lifting for squat, deadlift and bench?

You might be wasting time doing a split, you'll gain alright, but there's every chance its not optimal.

Brian?

Armedocr wrote: »

You need a sufficient amount for recovery, more to gain. For recovery alone I would stick with at least a gram per lb of BW.


As for the diet, taking me as an example. At 90kg taking in 135g of protein a day would leave me with at least 2300calories to make up. That's way too much carb/fat for my liking.

Edit: I thought I was responding to the OP here, I was not. But I stand by it nonetheless.
You're looking a little too closely at it. Take a step back from it and forget about macro nutrients for a sec.

In order to gain weight you need to be eating a calorie surplus for start. A good place to start would be to work out your maintenance calories and add 500. Plan your meals to meet this level of calories.

Write this out, look at every meal and ask yourself is there a good balance of protein, fats and carbs. If not tweak it. Start eating and tweak again based on weight gained, tiredness, flab gained etc.......

You're not going to start off with the perfect diet, so try starting somewhere and tweak as time goes on.

Waestrel

briankeating wrote: »

What are you lifting for squat, deadlift and bench?

You might be wasting time doing a split, you'll gain alright, but there's every chance its not optimal.

bench: about 35kg
Squat: about 65KG
deadlift: still working on my form, so not much. Terrified of injuring myself with this exercise

Brian?

Waestrel wrote: »

bench: about 35kg
Squat: about 650KG
deadlift: still working on my form, so not much. Terrified of injuring myself with this exercise

That could well be a world record squat .


I'd drop the split and do a linear progression strength training program like starting strength.

Never fear the deadlift, the deadlift is your friend. Are you working out at home or can you get someone to check your form? If you're at home, video it and post it up.

Armedocr

briankeating wrote: »

Edit: I thought I was responding to the OP here, I was not. But I stand by it nonetheless.
You're looking a little too closely at it. Take a step back from it and forget about macro nutrients for a sec.

In order to gain weight you need to be eating a calorie surplus for start. A good place to start would be to work out your maintenance calories and add 500. Plan your meals to meet this level of calories.

Write this out, look at every meal and ask yourself is there a good balance of protein, fats and carbs. If not tweak it. Start eating and tweak again based on weight gained, tiredness, flab gained etc.......

You're not going to start off with the perfect diet, so try starting somewhere and tweak as time goes on.

Don't worry man I have my diet. I was just writing that in response to the other lad. Right now I'm working on a recomp diet. High protein and fats. During the week I consume carbs immediately pwo and that's it. Then I carb up 1/2 days at the weekend depending on how I feel/look.

Brian?

Armedocr wrote: »

Don't worry man I have my diet. I was just writing that in response to the other lad. Right now I'm working on a recomp diet. High protein and fats. During the week I consume carbs immediately pwo and that's it. Then I carb up 1/2 days at the weekend depending on how I feel/look.

Ah yeah, I realised that after I posted, hence the edit note at the top.

Armedocr

briankeating wrote: »

Ah yeah, I realised that after I posted, hence the edit note at the top.

Damn sorry man. I got slightly confused there :P

Waestrel

okay, this was todays workout

Bench 3 x 10 @ 35
skullcrushers 3 x 10 @ 12kg
Dips: 3x 15 no weight
behind the head DB raise: 3 x 10 @ 30
Flys: 3x10 @12kg

Some practise of dead lifts at 30kg, watching form in the mirror, felt good.


It did not feel all that intense, should I include some supersets or pyramids to really **** my self up in the gym?

10 am: porridge with protein powder
2 pm: chicken tandoori
6pm: Protein bar, apple, hard boiled egg.

the day so far.

I suspect the diet is lacking, but today was a meal out with the family, and i probably had two chicken breast in one sitting.

d'Oracle

Waestrel wrote: »

okay, this was todays workout

Bench 3 x 10 @ 35
skullcrushers 3 x 10 @ 12kg
Dips: 3x 15 no weight
behind the head DB raise: 3 x 10 @ 30
Flys: 3x10 @12kg

Some practise of dead lifts at 30kg, watching form in the mirror, felt good.


It did not feel all that intense, should I include some supersets or pyramids to really **** my self up in the gym?

10 am: porridge with protein powder
2 pm: chicken tandoori
6pm: Protein bar, apple, hard boiled egg.

the day so far.

I suspect the diet is lacking, but today was a meal out with the family, and i probably had two chicken breast in one sitting.

Why are you doing skull crushers and flys?

Waestrel

d'Oracle wrote: »

Why are you doing skull crushers and flys?

why would i not, are they not a good and useful routine?

d'Oracle

Waestrel wrote: »

why would i not, are they not a good and useful routine?

Depends on the routine.
If your bench is only 35kg, then they are probably not useful.
Adding weight to your bench regularly would be much more useful.

Waestrel

d'Oracle wrote: »

Depends on the routine.
If your bench is only 35kg, then they are probably not useful.
Adding weight to your bench regularly would be much more useful.

Not useful, how so?

d'Oracle

Waestrel wrote: »

Not useful, how so?

Well, in the case of Flys, because they are (imo) frickin stupid.
The stimulus from pulling your upper arms towards the front of your body can be achieved with horizontal presses (Bench presses) which are basically pushing stuff. There is no actual activity I can think of which involve the action of a fly. Except maybe flying, which humans cant do.

As for skull crushers, they are useful for working the triceps, which is great for intermediate or advanced lifters/athletes/trainees.
But Horizontal and vertical pressing also strengthens and builds the triceps.

The thing being that Intermediates need a bit more to ilicit growth.
You don't. Pressing exercises will help you to grow because you are a beginner. Isolation exercises on small muscles are largely a waste of time for you, as they are for me. Infact, because they tire out the muscles, the limit the ability to add more weight next workout. Which sucks and stops you growing.

Here is an article:

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/training-articles/the-best-training-for-muscle-mass-for-beginners/

Here is a blog post:

http://www.70sbig.com/?p=2113

shootermacg

I bench pretty decent for my weight and I still think there's a place for flys, or at least DB bench press, I've been mostly using the BB bench but noticed it wasn't hitting my chest as much as my triceps. Following a mates advice I've been doing DB press lately and wow! it's really better for the chest IMO.
I was all over the place the first time I tried it wobbly arms and all, so start light, I'd say if you're benching 100kg, you'd be better starting with 35kg DBs, it's amazing how little you can bench with DBs and retain some form.
My only regret is that I decided to try the DBs in a crowded gym lol must have looked hilarious with wobbly arms etc.
Back to flys, I get a nice burn from cable flys, great to finish with IMO. Nothing wrong with a little variation i the gym.

d'Oracle

shootermacg wrote: »

I bench pretty decent for my weight and I still think there's a place for flys, or at least DB bench press, I've been mostly using the BB bench but noticed it wasn't hitting my chest as much as my triceps. Following a mates advice I've been doing DB press lately and wow! it's really better for the chest IMO.
I was all over the place the first time I tried it wobbly arms and all, so start light, I'd say if you're benching 100kg, you'd be better starting with 35kg DBs, it's amazing how little you can bench with DBs and retain some form.
My only regret is that I decided to try the DBs in a crowded gym lol must have looked hilarious with wobbly arms etc.
Back to flys, I get a nice burn from cable flys, great to finish with IMO. Nothing wrong with a little variation i the gym.

Cool. I wouldn't do them.
But hey, its your workout not mine.
I'm no expert.

shootermacg

Waestrel wrote: »

This is basically my workout.

I don't follow it exact, but its pretty much what i do. A fairly standard three day split.


Monday (Chest/Shoulder/Triceps)

Flat Bench Press – 3x8
Incline Dumbbell Bench – 3x8
Skull Crushers – 3x8 (similar to lying tricep extensions)
Close Grip Bench Press – 3x8
Seated Dumbbell Military Press -3x8
Lateral Dumbbell Raises – 3x8


Wednesday (Back/Biceps)

Dead lifts – 3x8
Bent over one arm Dumbbell rows – 3x8
Chin Ups 3x8 (Or Lat pull downs if you can’t do chins yet)
Barbell Bicep Curl -3x8
One arm Dumbbell hammer Curls – 3x8


Friday (Legs/Abs)

Barbell Squats – 3x8
Dumbbell Lunges – 3x8
Calf Raises-4x10
Abdominal workout (Crunches, leg raises, whatever)

taken from

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17401146

I don't see much wrong with this except for bench day, way too many pressing movements IMO, you'll be fine with the first exercise but the others will suffer.
I'd prioritize a different exercise like flat bench 1st one week and incline the 1st the next.
I've done similar splits myself but I concentrate on reps for the second exercise with lighter weights and switch it the next week.
Even the starting strength is a split concentrating on one main exercise for the day.
I agree compounds are where it's at but if someone has time on their hands then why not really go for it. No split is complete without deadlifts, squats, bench and chins but after that I say do whatever you like.
For me it's a 4 day split, I sit at a keyboard all day so I look forward to the workouts. The good thing about splits is they spread the load and give you the optimum recovery time.

Some of the splits are really well thought out and even if you don't agree with them initially and then try them, you'll see the sense and balance to them.
I used to do dips and chins at home most days, but now I watch that because I don't want to exhaust a muscle I'll be working the next day. In the gym I'll be doing weighted dips and chins so you'll never catch me doing them the day before at home.
I've just done 2 sets of 20 chins and 30 dips here tonight because it's shoulder/triceps day on Monday(laugh if you will) so I'll be fine + I had a little extra in the tank tonight.
It really is good to have a few days rest for muscles especially when the DOMS set in.
The OP is interested in size, he's got the compounds covered pretty much in his split (maybe overly so on chest day ^ ^) so I guess my advice is eat clean, get lots of protein and complex carbs, ensure you get a post workout shake: whey + simple carbs (I use glucose), take a good multivitamin and some fish oil.
Typical meal would be in the 40/40/20 range, example chicken breast, plenty of veg and some brown rice (spice how you like).
I start the day with an omelette (1 egg + roughly 5 egg whites-2 chicks do pasturised egg whites can be bought in Dunnes) and a bowl of porridge with some dried fruit, if I'm feeling lazy I mix casein in with the porridge and forget the eggs.
I get dinner at work, I try to keep it clean, but I take the red meat option whenever possible.
I get home at 5:30 and eat straight away, maybe chicken, veg and quinoa or rice), take some creatine and hit the gym at 8 or 8:30, usually drink 4 litres of water at the gym (especially in summer), straight ater I take my post workout shake in the car on the way home.
I'll have some cold turkey/chicken/ham slices at 10, play some battlefield and hit the hay.
It's not the frequency of the meals that counts IMO, just make sure that you don't over eat before the gym, you can make it up after ^ ^.
A mate of mine who's a bloody tank (120kg bent over BB rows, 100Kg seated military press-no cheating there!) would rather workout on an empty stomach than feel lazy when he's in the gym (although he swears by desiccated liver tablets, takes 10 in the morning).

Scuba Ste

shootermacg wrote: »

I agree compounds are where it's at but if someone has time on their hands then why not really go for it. No split is complete without deadlifts, squats, bench and chins but after that I say do whatever you like.
For me it's a 4 day split, I sit at a keyboard all day so I look forward to the workouts. The good thing about splits is they spread the load and give you the optimum recovery time.

How do you know what's optimum, if the OP can only bench 35kg I'd say waiting a week to bench again is far from optimum tbh. I also disagree about 'going for it' after compounds and prefer going for it on the actual compounds like squats.

OP your 85 kg and benching 35kg and squatting 65kg. Imo get those numbers up before going into splits and bodybuilding style routines. That's a crap routine tbh. Eg. your doing 4 presses one day but only 2 pull on another. You have a back and hamstrings use them more. The routine in the link by d'Oracle is better as is Starting Strength (which does not concentrate on one main exercise a day shooter ).

I like this type of routine.

Squat/Bench/Row
Deadlift/OH press/Pull up

Simple and covers all the bases. You can add in any prehab or accessory exercises like curls or skull crushers, but I'd keep it to 6 exercises max.

Also why are deadlifts always back exercises in these splits.