Your opinions on how Capcom F***ed up Guy in SSF4

J0hnick

He's supposed to be a lightning fast Ninja, so you'd expect him to have one of the fastest walk speeds in the game , nope .... 17th meaning half the cast (some of which make no sense) can walk faster then him.

He has a 4 frame jab, wtf ?, 3 frames would have at least put him on equal footing with the shoto's. He does surprisingly well against the odd High tier character like Sagat due to Sagat's height making him Bushin Flip bait, but for anyone who has played guy for a while, you'll know how insanely difficult his matchup's versus Honda (probably 8:2) Balrog and Guile (7:3) are just to name a few

I love playing as him, but my god, he's on par/maybe slightly worse then Makoto and Gen who desperately need a buff as it is, I honestly think he's the 3rd worst character in the game just above Hakan and Dan. He's barely tournie worthy, like twelve in 3s, Yamazaki was able to do some amazing stuff with him but its not like it wasn't a huge up hill struggle.

Ken B

Guy is ridiculously powerful against certain characters....

Doctor DooM

I played Guile in vanilla. I have no pity for you


Chunkis put a good show in with Guy against redman at Qcon, I don't think he's so bad.

J0hnick

Ken B wrote: »

Guy is ridiculously powerful against certain characters....

Yes, unfortunately he's ridiculously **** against most others (especially the 3 I mentioned), With the exception of Deejay and Vega Guy has trouble against charge characters full stop. As mentioned he fairs very well against Sagat due to his height, unfortunately the same cannot be said for other big characters like Hawk or especially Gief seeing as their grapplers.

Doom: Even if Guile was exactly the same as Vanilla, Guy would have almost as much trouble with him, the 2 hit armour on Guy's EX run slide negate most fireballs so guiles faster booms (his main buff) arent an issue. Just because Chunkis put on a good show with him doesn't mean Guy is a great character, it just means Chunkis is a good enough player that he could beat his opponents with a low tier character. Did he happen to play any Boxers or Honda's ?.

bush

Whos guy good against?

unky chop chop

Yep Capcom did make a balls out of him. That jab is just terrible.That being said, all you need is one or two openings to land the bushin combo into tatsu/elbow or super/ultra and its good night Vienna for your opponent.
In super he seems to be all about making your opponent make mistakes and capitilising on punishment. Also that Bushin flip/throw does serious damage,about 200 i think.
All in all I think he's great fun to play

unky chop chop

Bush80 wrote: »

Whos guy good against?

Himself..that's it.Mirror matches with guy are actually great fun

Doctor DooM

J0hnick wrote: »

Yes, unfortunately he's ridiculously **** against most others (especially the 3 I mentioned), With the exception of Deejay and Vega Guy has trouble against charge characters full stop. As mentioned he fairs very well against Sagat due to his height, unfortunately the same cannot be said for other big characters like Hawk or especially Gief seeing as their grapplers.

Doom: Even if Guile was exactly the same as Vanilla, Guy would have almost as much trouble with him, the 2 hit armour on Guy's EX run slide negate most fireballs so guiles faster booms (his main buff) arent an issue. Just because Chunkis put on a good show with him doesn't mean Guy is a great character, it just means Chunkis is a good enough player that he could beat his opponents with a low tier character. Did he happen to play any Boxers or Honda's ?.

You're missing the point.

Guile is the third worst character by the last tier list in vanilla.

I just worked with what I was given. Ken B worked with Vega, who's even lower than Guile.

Some character has to be the worst.

EDIT: I'm not saying he shouldn't get a buff, just... you can complain about it, or choose another character, or learn to work with it.

Sairus

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'm not saying he shouldn't get a buff, just... you can complain about it, or choose another character, or learn to work with it.

I like to mix option 1 and 3.

unky chop chop

Stop playing that low tier Guile vanilla card Doom.
You're living in the past you top Tier whore bag:D

Placebo

Doctor DooM wrote: »

EDIT: I'm not saying he shouldn't get a buff, just... you can complain about it, or choose another character, or learn to work with it.

same way i stuck with chunli after sf3
even though she was so poor in vanilla

r3sp3ct

J0hnick

unky chop chop wrote: »

Yep Capcom did make a balls out of him. That jab is just terrible.

Agreed, he's nothing like he was in Alpha 3

unky chop chop wrote: »

That being said, all you need is one or two openings to land the bushin combo into tatsu/elbow or super/ultra and its good night Vienna for your opponent.

I wouldn't go that far, bushin combo into HK tatsu rocks but only works in the corner, target combo into MK tatsu/lp Elbow or run slide however will work full screen.

Comboing into his Ultra 1 scales the damage BIG TIME!, and U2 is only good for a handful of matchups and purely as a punish, its a 3 frame grab and every character can jump out of it just like Akuma's U1.

unky chop chop wrote: »

In super he seems to be all about making your opponent make mistakes and capitalizing on punishment.

Yup, he's all about run stop/slide and bushin flip shenanigans.

unky chop chop wrote: »

Also that Bushin flip/throw does serious damage,about 200 i think.

It does, Akuma and Seth say Ouch and scared to jump at you (even beats Akuma's Demon Flip grab), easily Guy's best weapon.

unky chop chop wrote: »

All in all I think he's great fun to play

Me to, but he's nothing like his previous incarnations, I haven't seen his ending for arcade mode but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he actually Guy's older/fatter asthmatic twin brother posing as him.

J0hnick

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Some character has to be the worst.

Thats Dan's Job :P, and he's still better then Hakan and on par with Makoto.

But seriously, have you played A-Ism Guy in Alpha 3 ?, he was as mid tier as mid tier could get and one of the best A-Ism characters in a game dominated (almost broken) by V-Ism characters.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

EDIT: I'm not saying he shouldn't get a buff, just... you can complain about it, or choose another character, or learn to work with it.

I know, I know, Akuma's in the back of my mind but ive been maining Shoto's since SF2 and they kinda get stale after almost 20 years.

The Hound

I think Guy's fine, he has an excellent corner mix up. I play him a lot. Gief was always going to be a difficult match up for him. Not sure about T hawk. Guy does well against shotos and most of the cast if you ask me. Balrog isnt too bad, its too early to say as balrog is top tier. Not sure about Honda, it cant be that bad. Everyone has to hav a bad match up of some sort. Guile isnt too bad, just put him in the corner and dont let him out. As for him being slow! he can wall jump and jump full screen, instant elbow drop as well. To say that Capcom F****d up is a bit much.

J0hnick

Placebo wrote: »

same way i stuck with chunli after sf3
even though she was so poor in vanilla

r3sp3ct

How was Chun poor in Vanilla ?.

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

SF3 Chun is a totally different animal to SF4/SSF4 Chun. In SF3 she had the best normals in the game and 2 stocks of an incredible super that could be canceled into a bazillion ways, and followed up with a super jump cancel, she was top tier beside Yun for a reason. She's still good in vanilla and even better in super, nothing compared to the tank she was in 3rd strike but come on, she was almost broken tier in 3rd strike and now shes gone from mid/upper mid tier in vanilla to almost top in Super.

Id say something if you were using Ryu in 3s, who was totally mid tier, and then stuck with him in Vanilla (when he was a monster) and now super (were he's not quite as good but still near the top).

GorySnake

I could multi-quote but they're all over the place.

His game isn't centred around Run/Flip shenanigans. He aint Fuerte. Super Guy is all about getting your opponent to the corner and setting up his crossup/elbow drop mixups. His damage output in the corner is huge, 300+ damage from either option.

Bushin Flip is not his best weapon. I barely use it. Opponent can backdash - punish. Only good as a surprise move mid blockstring imo. j. down.mp is his best weapon.

My only complaints are his poor AA options and his space gravity jump, though if he had a quicker jump his corner mixups would be even better. If he had a decent AA and a better jump, I'd have Guy as my secondary.

unky chop chop

GorySnake wrote: »

My only complaints are his poor AA options .

Have you tried his Standing HK yet as an AA. only found it recently..its quality and stuffs many attacks
I think his standing fierce punch can be used as an AA as well unless I'm mistaken?( and his tatsu which is a bit crappy)

GorySnake

Not sure if I have or not. I usually use cr.mp (which I heard is his best) which is a bit inconsistent, but I once used his slide as an AA, since he's so low to the ground during that move. Im just fussy from Cody's AA options.

ayjayirl

Placebo wrote: »

same way i stuck with chunli after sf3
even though she was so poor in vanilla

r3sp3ct

No she wasn't, you're just saying that to account for your dismalness............ oh its a word!

J0hnick

The Hound wrote: »

he has an excellent corner mix up.

True, they had to give him something though.

The Hound wrote: »

Gief was always going to be a difficult match up for him. Not sure about T hawk

Hawk's a bad (though not terrible) matchup for the same reason as Gief, he has all the same tools gief has to make the matchup hard for Guy, he just happens to be lower on the tier list then Gief. Abel isnt a matchup thats in Guy's favor either to a lesser extent, he just doesnt dish out and cant take as much damage as Gief or Hawk. Grapplers in general have an edge against Guy, but not as much as most charge characters.

The Hound wrote: »

Guy does well against shotos and most of the cast if you ask me.

Lets face it, 60% of online play is flowchart Ken/Ryu, any character who knows their arse from their elbow will do well against them. Assuming you mean good shoto's, Guy (like the rest of the cast) has an easy time with Dan, goes even with Gouken and surprisingly well against Akuma seeing as his Bushin Flip beat out Akumas demon flip most of the time and hurts him HARD if you connect with a throw. The Ken matchup isnt to bad though still slightly in Ken's favor, even more so for Ryu.

The Hound wrote: »

Balrog isnt too bad, its too early to say as balrog is top tier. Not sure about Honda, it cant be that bad.

http://shoryuken.com/f334/master-bushinryu-consolidated-guy-matchup-thread-234647/

Compare the notes for the matchup's against Boxer and Honda, then explain why Honda "cant be that bad". Honda is practically the anti Guy, While Boxer and Guile arent as bad but still very tough matchups.

The Hound wrote: »

As for him being slow! he can wall jump and jump full screen, instant elbow drop as well. To say that Capcom F****d up is a bit much.

You make him sound like he had Fuerte's wall jump, he has a wall jump but his floaty jump gives your opponent all the time in the world to AA you, its not super high either like Viper's super jumps or even Dan's jumping taunt. Plus 4 frame jab for a character whos supposed to be fast is just dumb, In Final Fight he was the fastest selectable character but the weakest as his trade off, Hagger was the strongest but the slowest and Cody mediocre at both. In SF4, its like he retains weakness but with Cody's speed, actually I think Cody's jab is 3 frames (lol) and he was more health/stun regardless.

The Hound

Abels surely a fair match up. As for akuma players doing a demon flip on any character that is standing is crazy, demon flip is used as a mix up for wake ups. His wall jump is mainly used to get him out of bad situations. Maybe honda is tough as you said. Guy is good and not that slow. He doesnt walk like makoto! His run is ok. Imo hes better than elf. Its crazy to think someone made a thread complaining about a character who is decent, has good moves and great mix ups and dishes big damage. Hes good fun and certainly not bottom tier imo. The game is very balanced and guy is one of those balanced characters.

GorySnake

Guy is mid tier in my opinion. He's far from F***ed up. He was never going to play like any version of Alpha Guy anyway, completely different engines. It's been said plenty of times, but his corner mixups are SO good. With proper spacing and timing, it can be very hard to react to which side you're going to eat a 300+ damage combo from. Also U1 gets scaled like hell because Bushin in the corner already does around 200 damage anyway. J.d+mp - Bushin - U1 does 400 damage if I remember correctly. Only works in corner but as Guy, thats where the fight should be and thats good damage for a meterless Ultra.

J0hnick

GorySnake wrote: »

I could multi-quote but they're all over the place.

His game isn't centred around Run/Flip shenanigans. He aint Fuerte. Super Guy is all about getting your opponent to the corner and setting up his crossup/elbow drop mixups. His damage output in the corner is huge, 300+ damage from either option.

Bushin Flip is not his best weapon. I barely use it. Opponent can backdash - punish. Only good as a surprise move mid blockstring imo. j. down.mp is his best weapon.

My only complaints are his poor AA options and his space gravity jump, though if he had a quicker jump his corner mixups would be even better. If he had a decent AA and a better jump, I'd have Guy as my secondary.

I wont Multi quote you seeing as your not a big fan :-P

Yes there's the conventional way of playing guy, there's more then one way to play most characters. But then there's stuff like Guy's unteachable ex bushin flip setups that can still grab crouching opponents on wakeup, even if your holding down every character is standing for 1 frame after wakeup and this is enough to be ex bushin flipped but the timing is extremely strict.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVqHheN7ND8

check out 40 seconds in, Daigo was crouching and still got flipped, course Kiryu still lost the match (Lol)

Im not saying your wrong, but when I thing of Fuerte I think of 50/50 wakeup command grabs.

GorySnake

That's Fuerte though, his whole game relies on his Run mixups and RSF.

I wouldn't say Guy's entire playstyle is centred around a trick, unblockable Bushin setups, especially since Daigo could have DP'd it.

Also, that makes your argument for Guy being "F***ed up" a little harder.

J0hnick

GorySnake wrote: »

Daigo could have DP'd it.

True, bad choice of vid, I figured if I could show it being done against the best player in the world it would strengthen my case.

Having said that, what about a character with no DP ?, ive seen a video of it being done to Juri 4 times in a row (ill post it if I can find it again)

GorySnake wrote: »

that makes your argument for Guy being "F***ed up" a little harder.

He's not all bad, otherwise he'd be below Dan, I could list all the things he doesn't have going for him (like almost no good pokes) but Id be here all day.

For s***s and giggles, here's Valle run -> stop to ultra 2 against JR RODRIGUEZ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j65oj8fdh8&feature=related

2:16 in, sick stuff but more shenanigans i spoke about earlier

PS - Just noticed Guy also loses in that vid to, lol!

Ramza

While we're talking about Guy let's talk about the other 20 or so characters Capcom ****ed over

:pac:

Azza

Ramza wrote:

While we're talking about Guy let's talk about the other 20 or so characters Capcom ****ed over

How did they **** over 20 characters?

Just because they characters don't play 100% the same as their ST And 3S counter parts doesn't mean they have been screwed over. Its a different game after all.

The Hound

RopeDrink's right. Stop comparing him to how he played in other games or other characters for that matter. Oh, and lets be honest, Valle was extremely unlucky in that video. Stupid ending!

GorySnake

Especially when he's still solid in this one.

Ramza

Azza wrote: »

How did they **** over 20 characters?

Just because they characters don't play 100% the same as their ST And 3S counter parts doesn't mean they have been screwed over. Its a different game after all.

I was joking, merely having a stab at the thread title :pac:

I'm agreeing with you. I just wanted to post "it's a different game"

Doctor DooM

unky chop chop wrote: »

Stop playing that low tier Guile vanilla card Doom.
You're living in the past you top Tier whore bag:D

I'm convinced that as the tier lists settle down Guile will be decidedly and happily mid tier.

Placebo wrote: »

same way i stuck with chunli after sf3
even though she was so poor in vanilla

r3sp3ct

Chun was pretty good in vanilla. She was definitely at least mid tier.

People were upset she wasn't 3s chun but frankly 3s chun would have ruined sf4!

Mr. K

I like Guy. I may lose with him on a regular basis...but it's always fun.

Azza

Chun was not far off top tier in vanilla. Giving the nerfs others recieved and the buffs she got she's in the top few now.

Doctor Doom wrote:

I'm convinced that as the tier lists settle down Guile will be decidedly and happily mid tier.

Play the character you like playing as regardless of tier. Don't be put off just because a character is suppose to be top tier and people give you stick for it.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

Play the character you like playing as regardless of tier. Don't be put off just because a character is suppose to be top tier and people give you stick for it.

Did... did...


did you just encourage me to play Guile? :eek:

Placebo

Azza wrote: »

Chun was not far off top tier in vanilla. Giving the nerfs others recieved and the buffs she got she's in the top few now.

her ultra wiffed almost half the cast ?

Doctor DooM

Placebo wrote: »

her ultra wiffed almost half the cast ?

It also shut down every projectile character in the game and could punish f headbutt on reaction among others.

Compare it to say Vega, Guile, Honda, Bison among others. Guile's for example has no practical use.

Azza

Placebo wrote:

her ultra wiffed almost half the cast ?

The ultra isn't everything, I mean it still had its uses. Her mix up was and still is excellent, she can zone certain characters very well, her pokes are probably the second best in the game, (only Vega has better) she's pretty god like in the air. Her only remaining downside is she's not great on wake up (but alot of the non shoto cast is like that)

She had like what 4 bad match ups in SF IV.

Sagat was one but everyone had him as bad match up. Its no doubt alot more even in SSF IV.

Akuma and Rufus where also very strong in vanilla as they are now.

C.Viper, well she isn't top tier herself and has quite a few bad match ups herself.

Most of characters just outside the top tier had about 4 bad match ups if not 5. So they where all in a similar boat to Chun.

Sisko

I don't really think people think that way rope. I don't even think farz for example was expecting SF4 chun to be 3s chun.

J0hnick

New Tier list out

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

Turns out I wasn't far off, 4th worst just above ... Dan ! :eek:

Doctor DooM

J0hnick wrote: »

New Tier list out

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

Turns out I wasn't far off, 4th worst just above ... Dan ! :eek:

As always though, pinch of salt with a tier list.


For example, there's no way in hell Honda is better off than Bison in a fight with Guile. That's ludicrous. With meter Bison has tools to slow Guile down whereas Honda's got nothing.

BTW I did plenty fine with a character in your position for over a year, 7/3 matches are still winnable if you know your character (and even then I only see 3 for Guy).

J0hnick

I dont agree with Rose being a 7:3 disadvantage to Guy or Guile only being 6:4, other way round imo.

And way to go Capcom on making Gen, who was already Low tier, even worse!

K.O.Kiki

Gen was low-tier in SFIV until guys like Yeb showed us his power.

Similarly Adon is still dismissed by many players, yet came 3rd at Evo2k10.

J0hnick

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Gen was low-tier in SFIV until guys like Yeb showed us his power.

Yes, and for his rewards, Capcom took away the one combo that got Gen that far (S.MK -> EX Hands).

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Similarly Adon is still dismissed by many players, yet came 3rd at Evo2k10.

I thought he came 5th ? (not that that makes huge difference), well he's mid tier now and I don't think people will be taking him lightly anymore, especially Justin Wong :P

K.O.Kiki

My bad, he came 5th.

K.O.Kiki

But are tier list numbers as bad as when people complain about the score for a videogame?

"Oh, you scored this a 6.3, I totally disagree it's at least a 7.9, you suck".
LOL

The Hound

So you agree with the tier list? That Chun, Honda, Bison and Guile are top? That the standings in the list are accurate and that Guy is indeed 4th from bottom? i know you said rose isn't a 7-3 is rose favor but the rest of the list?

Cobelcog

It's the console characters all over again. People are too lazy to bother sticking with characters and showing what they can do. They look at the first tier lists then run away, not exploring the less-than-obvious strengths of these characters.

Doctor DooM

Cobelcog wrote: »

It's the console characters all over again. People are too lazy to bother sticking with characters and showing what they can do. They look at the first tier lists then run away, not exploring the less-than-obvious strengths of these characters.

Last time I went online I got approx 6 bisons 3 hondas 4 chuns and 5 Guiles.

Bloody tier lists.

Play a character that you like.

Sagat06

Have capcom been following you personally Cobelcog thats a ridiculous jump up the rankings for Cammy.

Cobelcog

Sagat06 wrote: »

Have capcom been following you personally Cobelcog thats a ridiculous jump up the rankings for Cammy.

Hmm. Yes. That was all me. No-one else. Just Irish Cammy showing what's what.

Placebo

Cobelcog wrote: »

Hmm. Yes. That was all me. No-one else. Just Irish Cammy showing what's what.

im clearly number 1
had to let u win at last inferno so cammy would go up atleast a small bit