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Where do I start

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    #62
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,127 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Not every novel needs research and I'd bet that most of them change plot ans structure dramatically as they're written and rewritten so to me it seems a bit of a waste to spend too much time on that early on.

    The other point is that it's easy to convince yourself you're structuring your novel or researching while you're actually arsing about on the internet or staring at a half-full page but harder to make yourself believe you've written something you haven't. Also, how many times has an idea seemed great until you actually put it down on paper and realise it's unworkable or plain dull?


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    #63
    The Sparrow
    Registered Users Posts: 3,614 ✭✭✭The Sparrow


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Not every novel needs research and I'd bet that most of them change plot ans structure dramatically as they're written and rewritten so to me it seems a bit of a waste to spend too much time on that early on.

    What novel doesn't require any research?? And if you prepare properly there is a lesser chance that you will need big plot changes.

    pickarooney wrote: »
    The other point is that it's easy to convince yourself you're structuring your novel or researching while you're actually arsing about on the internet or staring at a half-full page but harder to make yourself believe you've written something you haven't. Also, how many times has an idea seemed great until you actually put it down on paper and realise it's unworkable or plain dull?

    It's also pretty easy to waste time writing something that is badly paced and doesn't make narrative sense because you are too busy being a 'writer' and not willing to spend enough time on the key point of a novel... the plot.

    As I mentioned before a novel will sell if it has bad writing but a gripping plot (take a bow Mr. Dan Brown) but the opposite is rarely true. It doesn't matter how great your writing is, if the story doesn't make sense then nobody will want to read you book. So that seems to suggest to me that the story is the most important element of a novel and therefore it should receive a lot of your attention. And it is very difficult to do that if you are worrying about prose and various rules at the same time as coming up with a plot.


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    #64
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,127 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    The Sparrow wrote: »
    What novel doesn't require any research?? And if you prepare properly there is a lesser chance that you will need big plot changes.
    Anything written directly from personal experience. I can't imagine there's much research you could do for a fantasy or sci-fi novel either.
    It's also pretty easy to waste time writing something that is badly paced and doesn't make narrative sense because you are too busy being a 'writer' and not willing to spend enough time on the key point of a novel... the plot.
    True enough, but you can at least salvage/recycle much of it or at worst rule out a possible plotline by elimination.
    As I mentioned before a novel will sell if it has bad writing but a gripping plot (take a bow Mr. Dan Brown) but the opposite is rarely true.

    I can't agree. For a start it will be nigh on impossible to get a publisher to read, let alone publish a novel that's not well written. It'll be discarded long before anyone can even work out what the plot is. Same goes for the bookshop - a reader will have no idea what the plot is beyond a basic back clover blurb until (s)he has read a good chunk of it, which will not happen if it's badly written.


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    #65
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    The Sparrow wrote: »
    It's actually not ironic at all. Would you not agree that the thing that sells Dan Brown novels is not the writing skill but the plot line? The same plot that he must have spent so long coming up with and researching?

    Also I didn't bash rules per se. I bashed the idea that when someone asks how they should approach writing a novel, all they get is rather pointless discussion on what rules should or shouldn't be broken.

    And unless you are just writing for yourself (and fair play if you are) it doesn't matter how many novels you have completed. It only matters how many you have had published and how succesful they were.

    Finally, I didn't preach any rule about outlining. I just wrote how I would approach writing a novel. Which was what the OP asked.

    My advice about basic story structure is quite pertinent to writing a novel, especially if someone is stuck about where to start.

    It's hard to publish a novel if you can't complete it, so errr, in that context it does matter very much if you can finish your novel.

    Also my statement about finishing a novel was in direct response to your assertion that outlining is necessary. And there are countless successful authors who don't outline.

    So feel free to take your snide snipes and please shove them somewhere impolite.


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    #66
    The Sparrow
    Registered Users Posts: 3,614 ✭✭✭The Sparrow


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Anything written directly from personal experience. I can't imagine there's much research you could do for a fantasy or sci-fi novel either.

    I disagree. Even if you are writing directly from personal recollection, there is no way you can remember everything and you will still have to research incidental things like places and how certain things work. A sci-fi novel would need a tonne of research. You need to understand science to make it believable. So if you are writing a sci-fi novel set on Mars, you would have to do a load of research on space travel and Mars itself.
    pickarooney wrote: »
    I can't agree. For a start it will be nigh on impossible to get a publisher to read, let alone publish a novel that's not well written. It'll be discarded long before anyone can even work out what the plot is. Same goes for the bookshop - a reader will have no idea what the plot is beyond a basic back clover blurb until (s)he has read a good chunk of it, which will not happen if it's badly written.

    How do you explain the Da Vinci Code? Or what seems like most of the chick lit around?


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    #67
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    greengirl31 wrote: »
    So I suppose my question is can anyone recommend such a course or give any tips or advice ?

    Forget courses, forget writing groups, find yourself a 'space' and just write.

    If it's in you, it will come out.


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    #68
    The Sparrow
    Registered Users Posts: 3,614 ✭✭✭The Sparrow


    Memnoch wrote: »
    So feel free to take your snide snipes and please shove them somewhere impolite.

    That's the best insult you can come up with? Jeez maybe if you had done a bit of an outline and gave a little thought to it, you would have come up with something better! :D


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    #69
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,127 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Memnoch wrote: »

    So feel free to take your snide snipes and please shove them somewhere impolite.

    Less of that please.
    The Sparrow wrote: »
    I disagree. Even if you are writing directly from personal recollection, there is no way you can remember everything and you will still have to research incidental things like places and how certain things work. A sci-fi novel would need a tonne of research. You need to understand science to make it believable. So if you are writing a sci-fi novel set on Mars, you would have to do a load of research on space travel and Mars itself.
    You can write a novel set in your own house, in a magical land of your own invention... Maybe I'm being naive, but how exactly would you research a Harry Potter book?
    How do you explain the Da Vinci Code? Or what seems like most of the chick lit around?
    The Da Vinci code was certainly well written. It might not use particularly elegant language or well fleshed-out characters but the pacing was phenomenal. I don't really read chick-lit but it must be well-written for its audience in that it pushes the buttons of the paying public who lap it up. It's probably safe to say the writing is at least as good as the plots.


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    #70
    The Sparrow
    Registered Users Posts: 3,614 ✭✭✭The Sparrow


    pickarooney wrote: »
    You can write a novel set in your own house, in a magical land of your own invention... Maybe I'm being naive, but how exactly would you research a Harry Potter book?

    Off the top of my head and after only seeing the films, they get an old steam train to Hogwarts. So surely you would have to do some research on steam trains.
    pickarooney wrote: »
    The Da Vinci code was certainly well written. It might not use particularly elegant language or well fleshed-out characters but the pacing was phenomenal. I don't really read chick-lit but it must be well-written for its audience in that it pushes the buttons of the paying public who lap it up. It's probably safe to say the writing is at least as good as the plots.

    IMO the pacing in the Da Vinci code is as much about the fast moving plot as it is about the writing.


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    #71
    EileenG
    Registered Users Posts: 5,775 ✭✭✭EileenG


    For what it's worth, I write first, research after. Any time I come to a point in my story where research is needed, I stick in ??? and keep writing. Later I go back and replace all my ??? with the appropriate information. Researching first can be so fascinating you never end up putting pen to paper. Or you become determined to share all the fascinating stuff you found, and bog down your story as a result.

    I'm in the middle about outlining. I think you need to know your characters, and in particular, whose story you are telling, and you have to have a good idea of how they get from the beginning to the end, but I like to let them work out some of the details on the way.

    Right now, my characters are cold wet and tired, and stuck out on a mountainside for the night. They are about to be hunted by some nasty aliens. I know they survive, but I have no idea how they are going to manage it. Should be interesting....


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    #72
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,127 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Explosions and heli.... never mind :D


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    #73
    EileenG
    Registered Users Posts: 5,775 ✭✭✭EileenG


    Just met Eoin Colfer today, and among the funny stuff (he gets his ideas out of Philip Pullman's rubbish bin etc), he said that he always had an outline and a plan before he started work. The one time he wrote a novel because he had a great idea but no plan, it turned out be a waste of six months work: it just didn't go anywhere.


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    #74
    desolate sun
    Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭desolate sun


    EileenG wrote: »
    The one time he wrote a novel because he had a great idea but no plan, it turned out be a waste of six months work: it just didn't go anywhere.

    Writing organically didnt work for Eoin, but it does work for other writers. I've written 2 novels, one was outlined(ish, as in I knew the beginning and ending and some of the middle beforehand but there was room for change) and the other wasn't. I had more fun with the un-outlined one. In fact I will approach my next book the organic way as it suits me much better.


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