.223/5.56mm ammo prices and availability? Also is a S/A restricted?

ivanthehunter

As above what sort of prices are ye all paying for .223 ammo and are you have any difficulty sourcing it??

Also was thinking of going down the semi auto route for a 223! I'd be right saying that these are restricted?

I was in a gun dealers the other day and he insisted that a s/a 223 was not restricted any thoughts about that or how he might have drawn that conclusion??

If i was going down the S/A route then ammo prices would be a major issue!

PS I would think that a 223 would be the cheapest option for a center fire S/A??

It wasn't me!

Yes, it is restricted.

Hibrion

Hi Ivan, I was considering the same thing myself. Definitely restricted but it would seem not unattainable.

I had a bolt action 223 for a few years and I fed it 50 gr Remington hollow points which were pretty cheap and done a great job. They run about 12 quid a box so I don't think you would have a problem paying for them if you were looking at it as a long range bunny/ foxing rig. Plus, if you're buying in bulk you can always get a discount.

What S/A were you thinking of?

4gun

I use Wolf 55gr for plinking its 10 eu a box.... russian stuff its allright if you just want to make some noise

ivanthehunter

10 Euro a box! Hay that sounds like a good bang for yer buck:D

fish slapped

Bang for your buck is about all the wolf stuff is good for from my experience, as I would only recommend it for sound effects, as if you want it to group its a case of wrapping them in an elastic band and throwing them at the target!!

Again its just my experience of them!

If your looking to hit something for cheap money out to 200 meters American Eagle flat base fmj is cheap €11 a box and can group reasonably well.

Fish

ivanthehunter

Hibrion wrote: »

Hi Ivan, I was considering the same thing myself. Definitely restricted but it would seem not unattainable.

I had a bolt action 223 for a few years and I fed it 50 gr Remington hollow points which were pretty cheap and done a great job. They run about 12 quid a box so I don't think you would have a problem paying for them if you were looking at it as a long range bunny/ foxing rig. Plus, if you're buying in bulk you can always get a discount.

What S/A were you thinking of?

Cheap and reliable unit S/H - accuracy at 100yards sub 2" would be fine TBH

Im not going to be punching paper! TBH I'm not to sure about any S/A models as i know very little about them in 223cal and i have only set my sights on such a firearm as of this evening..:rolleyes:
Reliability is the number one concern and accuracy comes next but on the whole I'm going to have to sell something to buy it and i want to go as cheap as the reliability will allow.
TBH I not going to be shooting any further than 150yards 98% of the time....so cheap ammo and a cheap gun will do!

Any ideas on what might be classed as cheap and reliable????

ivanthehunter

fish slapped wrote: »

Bang for your buck is about all the wolf stuff is good for from my experience, as I would only recommend it for sound effects, as if you want it to group its a case of wrapping them in an elastic band and throwing them at the target!!

Again its just my experience of them!

If your looking to hit something for cheap money out to 200 meters American Eagle flat base fmj is cheap €11 a box and can group reasonably well.

Fish

Out of interest what sort of avg groups would you say each brand gives at a set distance of either 100 or 200 yards.
TBH if they are only 10% more expensive and they group anyway decent then they might be the bangers of choice:)

Sparks

There's at least one semi-auto .223 rifle in the country, though it's an SL-7 not an AR-15 as you might expect. Not sure if any have been licenced for hunting though. Haven't heard of any Mini-14s, but I think someone said there was an AR-15 around.

Tackleberrywho

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Out of interest what sort of avg groups would you say each brand gives at a set distance of either 100 or 200 yards.
TBH if they are only 10% more expensive and they group anyway decent then they might be the bangers of choice:)

The .223 @ 100 yards 3 shot group

Remington VSSF II recrowned barrel €90

4gun

fish slapped wrote: »

Bang for your buck is about all the wolf stuff is good for from my experience, as I would only recommend it for sound effects, as if you want it to group its a case of wrapping them in an elastic band and throwing them at the target!!

Again its just my experience of them!

If your looking to hit something for cheap money out to 200 meters American Eagle flat base fmj is cheap €11 a box and can group reasonably well.

Fish

I'd agree but we aint all target shooters fussin over inches and half inches...there just fine for farting about
why does it always have to be about tight groups ...there enough in shooting already:D

Hibrion

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Cheap and reliable unit S/H - accuracy at 100yards sub 2" would be fine TBH

Im not going to be punching paper! TBH I'm not to sure about any S/A models as i know very little about them in 223cal and i have only set my sights on such a firearm as of this evening..:rolleyes:
Reliability is the number one concern and accuracy comes next but on the whole I'm going to have to sell something to buy it and i want to go as cheap as the reliability will allow.
TBH I not going to be shooting any further than 150yards 98% of the time....so cheap ammo and a cheap gun will do!

Any ideas on what might be classed as cheap and reliable????

In terms of ammo the remington stuff is good and cheap enough.

Might be difficult to get a s/a purely for hunting. But if you make your case you might be lucky.
I'm sure you know of the Remington R-15, but after checking around I can say they are far from what you would call cheap.

The bushmaster is basically the same thing as an R-15 but a bit cheaper. The company who owns bushmaster also own Remington. It comes black rather than in real tree camo so looks a bit more "evil". On the basis of "it looks like an assault rifle", it might not go down well when it comes to licensing it.
The mini 14 by all accounts is grand for short distances but not near as accurate as the r 15 or an AR 15 variant. It did have a cheap price tag going for it but ruger have raised that in recent years.

I think what ever you choose it might be difficult to get a license for it. I'm not even sure whether to apply in the local station or directly to where the chief super is based. I think I'll ave to ring the FPU and ask a few questions.

Another option is a 22 mag. ruger 10 22. But to be honest if your going to go to the trouble of licensing a semi bigger than 22 lr you might as well get a 223.

Its a tough one.

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

why does it always have to be about tight groups

'cos if it was just about getting lead downrange, this lad wins every time:

dCorbus

Doesn't dwighet have a nice Remmy R15 in .223 S/A like this one?:



And I know of one other, this one:



These are both S/A .223 rifles which are restricted but have definitely been licenced in recent months. I'm sure theres more out there - but these are the two I know about for definite.

clivej

fish slapped wrote: »

Bang for your buck is about all the wolf stuff is good for from my experience, as I would only recommend it for sound effects, as if you want it to group its a case of wrapping them in an elastic band and throwing them at the target!!

Again its just my experience of them!

If your looking to hit something for cheap money out to 200 meters American Eagle flat base fmj is cheap €11 a box and can group reasonably well.
Fish

And American Eagle flat base HP is cheap @€;12.50 a box shoots well from my CZ 223

4gun wrote: »

I use Wolf 55gr for plinking its 10 eu a box.... russian stuff its allright if you just want to make some noise

This stuff will not chamber in my CZ varmint 223.

It wasn't me!

There are a reasonably surprising number of them out there, so if you can make your case and have the boys in blue on your side, it's doable. I've even seen a semi-auto Steyr AUG or a clone thereof.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

There are a reasonably surprising number of them out there, so if you can make your case and have the boys in blue on your side, it's doable. I've even seen a semi-auto Steyr AUG or a clone thereof.

So have I , 2 of them. Why anyone would want one

Hibrion

Lads, there have been some mad things licensed in the last few years. I know of a Beretta Cx4 storm carbine in 9mm that was licensed as a target pistol.:eek:

There is just so much variety between districts, it really is ridiculous.

Remmy

Sparks wrote: »

'cos if it was just about getting lead downrange, this lad wins every time:

ha x2.

"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

FISMA

The 223 is a great all around round. It's price to performance ratio could be the most bang for the buck.

Try not to visit American webSites selling 1000 rounds of wolf for $240. Just too depressing.

With that said, I greatly caution you on the use of any Russian ammo: Wolf, Brown Bear... They are notorious for poor quality control. Please google.

You do not have to feed it Hornaday everyday, however, some Remington is nice.

Problem with the American manufacturers is that there loads can be a little light - too many lawsuits means a little, not a lot, less powder.

But the 223, again, is a great round, flies fast and flat, and doesn't cost much. I believe the 223's like a lighter round. I'll have to check and do a bit of HW

SPARKS
Did you say an SL-7? Who makes it H&K? Anything like the SL-8?

I cannot imagine them letting something like this in.

As for the day you hear someone having a Mini14, or other variant, please advise. I would love to have one.

It wasn't me!

I know of one SL8 that was definitely licensed and I'm fairly certain of another, though no idea whether they've been relicensed under the new regime. There are a good few centrefire semi autos out there though. Nice to see.

Sparks

FISMA wrote: »

SPARKS
Did you say an SL-7? Who makes it H&K? Anything like the SL-8?

Yes, but I was getting the SL-7 and SL-8 confused there (the SL-7 does exist, it's a sporting model, the SL-8 was the one modelled off the G36)

Dats der bunny.

I cannot imagine them letting something like this in.

Yet they did. It's just a .223 at the end of the day (and yeah, .223 rather than 5.56 unless you ask for 5.56):

As for the day you hear someone having a Mini14, or other variant, please advise. I would love to have one.

Dunno why, it only ever was a cheap alternative to an AR15.

Hibrion

Sparks wrote: »

Dunno why, it only ever was a cheap alternative to an AR15.

It does have its place and I think it performs well in some areas. It is a good ranch rifle, something for the yanks to bring along when there trekking around there HUGE farms on the off chance that they might come across a varmint causing trouble:cool:.
There are however some 'tacticool' versions available now and I don't think they can compete with the AR variants in terms of accuracy. The fact that ruger put their prices up isn't helping them either.

Hibrion

That yolk looks awfully bulky lads. Like something out of starship troopers!:eek:

Sparks

Hibrion wrote: »

The fact that ruger put their prices up isn't helping them either.

Well, didn't ruger completely redesign them recently as well? (And start selling them under the phrase "ranch rifle"?)

Hibrion wrote: »

That yolk looks awfully bulky lads. Like something out of starship troopers!:eek:

That's kindof the point, it's the AR-15 to the G36's M-16. By law you can't fit the G36 folding stock to it, though the rest of the hardware is swappable...

gunhappy_ie

Sparks wrote: »

There's at least one semi-auto .223 rifle in the country, though it's an SL-7 not an AR-15 as you might expect. Not sure if any have been licenced for hunting though. Haven't heard of any Mini-14s, but I think someone said there was an AR-15 around.

Only 1 ....................... ****e .... i dont know you at all !!! :P::P:P:P

To the OP.... there are quiet a few ! Lots of OAs, i know of 2 hk Mr223s, SIGs in verious models as well as saber defences.


As regards ammo... i buy .223 at 8.50 a box (but i bulk buy). grouping arent the best but i put that down to the rifle.

As regards Wolf...... I have been doing alot of reading on this there are many opionins being shared both on and off the net.
I personally believe that alot of the beliefs about wolf are internet based and not from real experience ( I dont blame Irish shooters as our community is so small) wolf to be good pinking ammuntion IF you are not looking for ultra accurate ammo OR you are using a classic AR designed rifle. If using a piston driven rifle it is very reliable. Personally i have put some cheap S**Te through my South African R4.... and it has eaten it all... because its a piston driven. I have heard of mates with OAs complaining that wolf is so dirty that it causes FTFs etc.... but i put this down to there design.

Sparks

Geez gunhappy, "at least" != "only"

Hibrion

Sparks wrote: »

Well, didn't ruger completely redesign them recently as well? (And start selling them under the phrase "ranch rifle"?)

Ya. They have several variants though. The ranch rifle is just the basic one I think.
They have target models and folding stock models with weaver rails everywhere on them. Trying to be something they just aren't.

Ruger did bring our a 223 AR style rifle this year too I think.

Hibrion

Gunhappy you have some seriously nice rifles licensed. I had a hard time getting the 10 22!

gunhappy_ie

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but I was getting the SL-7 and SL-8 confused there (the SL-7 does exist, it's a sporting model, the SL-8 was the one modelled off the G36)

Dats der bunny.

Yet they did. It's just a .223 at the end of the day (and yeah, .223 rather than 5.56 unless you ask for 5.56):


Dunno why, it only ever was a cheap alternative to an AR15.

The SL7 and SL8 are actually nothin alike. while both are semi auto but the SL7 was as well as being .308 (you are possibly confused with the SL6 in .223) and is a delayed roller locking system ( same as Cetme and the Hk G3 rifle)

Yes the SL8 was a civilain copy of the G36 however its origional design was for the US market (hence the pic of the gray rifle above). Hk developed it to bypass the "Assault weapons ban" by puttin on a bullbarrel, thumbhole stock and modifying it to take low cap mags...

of the 2 that you know .. possibly 1 was mine :P i know of 1 other.

gunhappy_ie

Hibrion wrote: »

Lads, there have been some mad things licensed in the last few years. I know of a Beretta Cx4 storm carbine in 9mm that was licensed as a target pistol.:eek:

There is just so much variety between districts, it really is ridiculous.

An error.... it is a rifle under irish law.

Sparks

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

The SL7 and SL8 are actually nothin alike.

Except that one's just 1 larger than the other

gunhappy_ie

Sparks wrote: »

. By law you can't fit the G36 folding stock to it, though the rest of the hardware is swappable...

I dont get that statement .... in the US there are restrictions regarding where the parts were made...

here in ireland as its a restricted rifle any way 1 can do what ever they want with it so long as the conditions on there licence dont prohibit them from doing so

Hibrion

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

An error.... it is a rifle under irish law.

Definitely an error. I'd say it happened because it is a short restricted firearm.
Don't see any real use for it anyway. A pistol would be more fun:)

gunhappy_ie

Sparks wrote: »

Except that one's just 1 larger than the other

the only common grount they share is that there both semi autos....

SL7 roller locking.... Sl8 rotary locking bolt

SL7 .308...... SL8 .223

SL7 Wooden stock.... Sl8 polymer.

SL7 is designed as a hunting rifle..... SL8 designed as a target rifle.


I dont see the similarities

gunhappy_ie

Hibrion wrote: »

I'd say it happened because it is a short restricted firearm.
Don't see any real use for it anyway. A pistol would be more fun:)

It possibly happened because it wasnt known what was being licenced or the person was well up with there C/S


I do see the use for them... there a great pinker/target shooter and multicailber ... fired 1 years ago.... accurate too

Sparks

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

I dont get that statement .... in the US there are restrictions regarding where the parts were made...

Nope, there are restrictions on the rifle itself as it's an import:
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Heckler_&_Koch_SL8

here in ireland as its a restricted rifle any way 1 can do what ever they want with it so long as the conditions on there licence dont prohibit them from doing so

Yup, different jurisdiction.

Sparks

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

I dont see the similarities

8-7=1

At this hour of the morning, off-by-one errors happen

Hibrion

Having handled it I think I personally would prefer a pistol or a semi auto rifle. It does have a novelty factor to it though. Not something you see everyday.

gunhappy_ie

Sparks wrote: »

Nope, there are restrictions on the rifle itself as it's an import:
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Heckler_&_Koch_SL8



Yup, different jurisdiction.

Had a quick look over that but looks like its designed for US readers.....

Here in Ireland..... A perfect example wouls be a mossberg 500 shotgun....

You licence it as a restricted firearm because of its 5 shot cap.

a year into the licence you deside that you dont like the stock, theres nothin stopping you putting on a pistol grip as the firearm is already restricted.....

a year later you thing " feck i dont like this 24" barrel" and you but a 13" barrel" (remember to be a longarm it has to have a barrel over 30cm and over all length of 60 cm) it is still a restricted long arm... which you are licenced for.....

opposite end of the scale ... you buy and licence a mossberg 500 as a non restricted long arm... you cannot do ant of the above mentioned modifications as it will then class it as a restricted firearm.... to which you are not licenced for.

The SL8 under Irish law is a restricted firearm and although it is sold with 10 round mang there is nothin preventing some1 modifynig 30 rounders to fit.... as long as there licence doesnt prohibit them from doing so

Sparks

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

a year into the licence you deside that you dont like the stock, theres nothin stopping you putting on a pistol grip as the firearm is already restricted.....

Yes, but you can't put on G36 hardware on the SL8 receiver without serious modifications because the SL8 was developed for the US civilian market, so it was built to get round the gun control act.

Tackleberrywho

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Had a quick look over that but looks like its designed for US readers.....

Here in Ireland..... A perfect example wouls be a mossberg 500 shotgun....

You licence it as a restricted firearm because of its 5 shot cap.

a year into the licence you deside that you dont like the stock, theres nothin stopping you putting on a pistol grip as the firearm is already restricted.....

a year later you thing " feck i dont like this 24" barrel" and you but a 13" barrel" (remember to be a longarm it has to have a barrel over 30cm and over all length of 60 cm) it is still a restricted long arm... which you are licenced for.....

opposite end of the scale ... you buy and licence a mossberg 500 as a non restricted long arm... you cannot do ant of the above mentioned modifications as it will then class it as a restricted firearm.... to which you are not licenced for.

The SL8 under Irish law is a restricted firearm and although it is sold with 10 round mang there is nothin preventing some1 modifynig 30 rounders to fit.... as long as there licence doesnt prohibit them from doing so

Restricted is the way forward, I have 3 restricted firearms.
Once you satisfy the regulations it's fine.

.223 is a great little round. The .204 may be a better one though

I'm biased, I love my .223
I've shot hundreds of bunnies with my .223!

gunhappy_ie

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but you can't put on G36 hardware on the SL8 receiver without serious modifications because the SL8 was developed for the US civilian market, so it was built to get round the gun control act.

Its pi$$ easy do....

I say that because I have owned 1 .... and Im an armourer..... everything is easy when you know how :P

Legally though... there is nothin as sure stopping it benig dont in Ireland (only that a competitant gunsmith has to do it)

gunhappy_ie

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Restricted is the way forward, I have 3 restricted firearms.
Once you satisfy the regulations it's fine.

.223 is a great little round. The .204 may be a better one though

I'm biased, I love my .223
I've shot hundreds of bunnies with my .223!

Agreed.... I love .223.... and Ive never ised .204 I hear ( and im sure some1 will correct me) that it really goes through barrels... :P:P:P:P

but more variety IMO with .223

Grizzly 45

Am in the process of liscensing a Remington Semi auto R25 in 243.Which is basically an AR10 design.So YES they are out there and are liscenseable.
And kudos to Gunhappy.ie,he was a tremendous help in the liscensing court case.This man knows his S/A stuff.:D

The ruger mini 14.
I've always wanted one of these in stainless with the folding stock,ala the A team rifles that they had in the 80s TV seris.:D
well its a fine gun when you use it in it's design parameters.
It is a lightweight varmit/deer /plinker/patrolmans rifle.That has an exellent reloading mechanism based on the M1 Garand/M14 rifle.Idea was to flog it to ex GIs and early Nam vets who would be fammilar with the Garand and M14,as well as police depts who would have been trained on those guns as well.
It certainly will beat an AR15 hands down in reliabilityand price ,but the AR15 wins in accruacy.It NEVER was intended as a poor mans battle rifle.It can be tarted up with practically everything from useful to down right stupid.
Ruger did re design it a couple of times in its life.Started as the ruger mini 14 in both stainless and blued.There were a few Law enforcement versions in full auto,and equipped with bayonet lugs and flash hiders and folding stocks,The GB was the one set up for the bayonet,it had the sight further back down the barrel.It was issued to the RUC in NI for a time,and became notorious in Ireland being used by the Border Fox in the Darkley massacre in NI.

In the Early 80s Ruger brought out the Ranch rifle.Nothing more than a strengthened reciver for scope mounts and some other cosmetic changes,and more or less better sights.
They also brought it out in 7.62X39 AK,to cash in on the then extremly cheap ammo then starting to come out of the USSR with Glasnost.
Its only recently that Ruger brought in the design changes that have bugged the Mini for generations.
Bigger caliber[6.8]with a heavier barrel ,which still has barrel harmonic problems,a target version,and the stainless all weather version.
All INMHO too little too late.What with the AR15 in all versions and calibres nowadays.Ruger mucking around with what is admittedly a good AR copy
with a gas piston upper,is again just another drop in a flood of the AR15.

Ruger missed a trick when they dropped the XGI seris an experimental version in .243 and .308 .Had they kept it up it would have been an exellent deer brush rifle.Short,good calibre,and fast handling.

Grizzly 45

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

I dont get that statement .... in the US there are restrictions regarding where the parts were made...

here in ireland as its a restricted rifle any way 1 can do what ever they want with it so long as the conditions on there licence dont prohibit them from doing so

In the US it is a PARTS COUNT not where they are made.To satisfy BATFE ruling section 92[ii] R.Any firearm that is non import[generally prohibited now] must have ten or more US made parts.
So that is the buttstock,foregrip,sear,mainspring,trigger,hammer,bolt ,bolt carrier,trigger spring,Magazine,and recently the barrel.So ,IOW put genuine made in the USA bits in your AK parts kit with a semi auto only bolt and trigger group and you have a genuine sporting US made semi rifle.
depending in which state you live in you can have all the Evillll features on it or not .
totally irrevelant to Irish law.you have it restricted,you can hang what you please on it.


BTW www.Hera-arms.de do conversion kits for the HK SL8 to make it more like the G36.
They are very good quality,seeing they are made in Germany.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

totally irrevelant to Irish law

It's not a legal point at all grizzly, the point was that the original SL8 (gunhappy's since pointed out that the design's been altered) was built to comply with that law, so you couldn't plug in G36 hardware without milling and changing parts. That's a hardware design, which is the bit you have to go round when you're in Ireland (and the law here doesn't prevent it).

Grizzly 45

Yes,but what I am saying is now that there are kits for the SL7 to turn it into a G36,which cut out all the milling,and fabrication ,and they werent developed for the US market at all,they were developed for the German market,when S/As came off the German prohibited military arms list.So basically if you have an SL7 here ,even an early one.You can buy a "plug&play"kit and turn it into a semi G36.
The only reason the HK SL gets into the US is because of its hideous configuration for import.If you then apply the US "ten parts count rule"
You can have it in any config you want over there provided state and local laws allow it.

gunhappy_ie

Sparks wrote: »

It's not a legal point at all grizzly, the point was that the original SL8 (gunhappy's since pointed out that the design's been altered) was built to comply with that law, so you couldn't plug in G36 hardware without milling and changing parts. That's a hardware design, which is the bit you have to go round when you're in Ireland (and the law here doesn't prevent it).

There is no milling of parts required !

theres no bit that you have to go around here in ireland...... its simple .. you buy... you try.... you modify

you generally are under no legal oblication here so long as you dont change calibre and dont change its fire control.

change the stock and mount every accessory known to man and beast including a microwave on a pic rail for all the cops to see.... there is nothing stopping you.

gunhappy_ie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

In the US it is a PARTS COUNT not where they are made.To satisfy BATFE ruling section 92[ii] R.Any firearm that is non import[generally prohibited now] must have ten or more US made parts.
So that is the buttstock,foregrip,sear,mainspring,trigger,hammer,bolt ,bolt carrier,trigger spring,Magazine,and recently the barrel.So ,IOW put genuine made in the USA bits in your AK parts kit with a semi auto only bolt and trigger group and you have a genuine sporting US made semi rifle.
depending in which state you live in you can have all the Evillll features on it or not .
totally irrevelant to Irish law.you have it restricted,you can hang what you please on it.


BTW www.Hera-arms.de do conversion kits for the HK SL8 to make it more like the G36.
They are very good quality,seeing they are made in Germany.

There on my old SL8

Feckin fantastc rifle though !!!!!!! Id have another in the mornin if i could !

FISMA

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but you can't put on G36 hardware on the SL8 receiver without serious modifications because the SL8 was developed for the US civilian market, so it was built to get round the gun control act.

...comply Sparks, comply.;)