Review the pricing structure

Placebo

The pricing structure officially needs to be reviewed.
First and foremost, what is the absolute goal of Inferno ?
-Is it to expand the community?
-Play amongst our selves, as usual.

While both are important and i really couldn't give a toss about 15 euro, i think there is a grey area to how the money is being divided.

-venue price = €150 for 8 hours.
[if inferno is kept at €10, thats 15 guaranteed attendees that pay of that price]

The main issue here is encouraging new comers, asking some one to come pay 5 to have a few games of street fighter is ridiculous . If that is the case, some one needs to be at the door and charge standard 5 euros for ENTRY, this includes only casuals. Extra €10 euro for tournament.

Either way, since this current inferno is going to be a collaborated effort, i feel its slightly unfair to ask the main contributers to pay the full price as well.

Also 'extra' left over going for recording equipment, etc - i dont see this working. Lets just set up a donations page and im sure all the regulars would not mind chipping a bit in now and then. Its not a case that the equipment would be paid by all of us and some new comer is going to have his group match recorded for 'free'

In short, keep the price down. Maybe even lower the pot. Its not even about the pot, especially if chris takes it everytime anywway
and please dont compare this to EVO prices, that **** happenes every once a year and they have pro japenese players.

Orim

Just to point out, it has been reviewed before and voted on to keep it at €15.

There is no grey area as to how the money is being divided. at least for me.

€5 is the cost of renting equipment. This has been true for infernos in XGC and is true for casuals. Anything that is left over is being put into the community pot for anything that needs to be done to improve the community.
An example is better recording equipment, however there is other things that need to be bought. The venue has a 50% deposit required, we might need to buy some more monitors, various adapters need to be bought, posters/flyers being printed, another facebook ad campaign etc. All examples that this money could go towards so people don't have to pay out of their own pocket.

€10 is the cost of the tournament. All of this goes towards the prize pot.

Farz, if I recall you're generally the first person to compare to EVO prices since the tournament price is quite similar to our own but they have a greater overall cover charge.

The donation page is a terrible idea. It will still be the same people putting the money in but then it becomes something that has to be done rather then a natural building based on what we're doing anyway.

As for the price I have argued for a lower price in the past. The €15 isn't bad but it is a lot considering how much you get to play on the day.

My currents thoughts are :
1) Reduced price to new (possibly anyone non-regular) and people that bring new people. [Tricky one to police but might encourage some people who wouldn't normally come]

2) Increase prize distribution. Perhaps go to a top 8 prize structure.

Ramza

5 euro for casuals going from 2-sometimes 9-11PM seems fine to me

But if you're talking in terms of the total price of Inferno I think it is ok, if you want to come and just do casuals or spectate, but don't want to enter the tourney people don't mind

chopperbyrne

In the new venue with limited setups and time, not a lot of casuals will be played once the tournament starts. (Plus we may want to start running two tournaments in one day if we can.)

I'm personally against changing the prize structure and have no problem with the price itself. We could maybe offer a discount price for newcomers as an incentive though.

Dreddybajs

chopperbyrne wrote: »

In the new venue with limited setups and time, not a lot of casuals will be played once the tournament starts. (Plus we may want to start running two tournaments in one day if we can.)

I'm personally against changing the prize structure and have no problem with the price itself. We could maybe offer a discount price for newcomers as an incentive though.

Agreed with this, especially since as Orim said this was discussed before and it was agreed to keep the entry price as is.

Orim

chopperbyrne wrote: »

In the new venue with limited setups and time, not a lot of casuals will be played once the tournament starts. (Plus we may want to start running two tournaments in one day if we can.)

I'm personally against changing the prize structure and have no problem with the price itself. We could maybe offer a discount price for newcomers as an incentive though.

I still think it's important to keep the distinction of price on the day of Inferno. With general entry being €5 and the main tournament being €10. At the very least this leaves the door open for adding more tournaments/side-events on the day.

Placebo

Orim wrote: »

Just to point out, it has been reviewed before and voted on to keep it at €15.

There is no grey area as to how the money is being divided. at least for me.

€5 is the cost of renting equipment. This has been true for infernos in XGC and is true for casuals. Anything that is left over is being put into the community pot for anything that needs to be done to improve the community.
An example is better recording equipment, however there is other things that need to be bought. The venue has a 50% deposit required, we might need to buy some more monitors, various adapters need to be bought, posters/flyers being printed, another facebook ad campaign etc. All examples that this money could go towards so people don't have to pay out of their own pocket.

€10 is the cost of the tournament. All of this goes towards the prize pot.

Farz, if I recall you're generally the first person to compare to EVO prices since the tournament price is quite similar to our own but they have a greater overall cover charge.

The donation page is a terrible idea. It will still be the same people putting the money in but then it becomes something that has to be done rather then a natural building based on what we're doing anyway.

As for the price I have argued for a lower price in the past. The €15 isn't bad but it is a lot considering how much you get to play on the day.

My currents thoughts are :
1) Reduced price to new (possibly anyone non-regular) and people that bring new people. [Tricky one to police but might encourage some people who wouldn't normally come]

2) Increase prize distribution. Perhaps go to a top 8 prize structure.

Facebook ad campaign ? where is this equipment being bought with extra money going to be stored? How exactly do you see yourself enforcing a regular vs non regular policy ?
And whats the limit of this extra equipment, we will always need more things?

The whole idea is to have a wider community, i.e hopefully having up to 80-100 entrants in the near future to get us noticed.
As opposed to having closely knit, clique tournaments.
Pricing structure was agreed with XGC pricing in mind, which why i thought it needed to be re-viewed. It might be a better idea to have €5 entry and €10 for tournaments. So new comers can come and have a feel. Theres no set casual timing but there is always spaces/consoles available once the groups are over. Either way this all came to mind when i was making the poster, i dont feel strongly about putting €15 on the poster. Look at the demographic.

bush

Hasnt the pricing been voted on 3 times already? Im not into the idea of charging different people different prices either, kind of messy.

Doctor DooM

Lads, we've had this three times in the last few months.

Orim

Placebo wrote: »

Facebook ad campaign ?

I ran a facebook ad campaign to generate some interest when I set up the facebook. Lots of people joined and a few of them have become involved with the community.

Placebo wrote: »

where is this equipment being bought with extra money going to be stored?

Perhaps in Space 54, I foolishly forgot to ask today. Perhaps somewhere else. Needs to be looked at as we start to bring in equipment.

Placebo wrote: »

How exactly do you see yourself enforcing a regular vs non regular policy ?

I never said we would have a regular vs non-regular policy. It was simply a caveat. My preference would be to run it purely based on new people. I have the lists of entrants from the last two tournaments and prior to that it was fairly standard as to who was attending.

Placebo wrote: »

And whats the limit of this extra equipment, we will always need more things?

Why limit things? As long as we can grow, we should grow.

Placebo wrote: »

The whole idea is to have a wider community, i.e hopefully having up to 80-100 entrants in the near future to get us noticed.
As opposed to having closely knit, clique tournaments.

I agree with this and I'm working hard in my way to bring this about. It's why we have the website. It's why we have facebook and twitter. It's why I did the facebook ad mentioned above. It's why I made gave the tournaments a regular date rather then appearing semi-randomly on the forums so that only the regulars knew about in advance.

Placebo wrote: »

Pricing structure was agreed with XGC pricing in mind, which why i thought it needed to be re-viewed.

This new venue costs about the same as XGC so in theory the agreed price is still set for the same cost.

Placebo wrote: »

It might be a better idea to have €5 entry and €10 for tournaments. So new comers can come and have a feel. Theres no set casual timing but there is always spaces/consoles available once the groups are over. Either way this all came to mind when i was making the poster, i dont feel strongly about putting €15 on the poster. Look at the demographic.

That cost spilt is exactly what is in place.

Kirby

If the majority are happy with the current pricing structure, than we should leave it the way it is.

It's just important that people voice their concerns if they have any. 15 quid is nothing to me, but it might be alot to some people. And i'd hate to see people not come because they feel they can't afford it.

A-Trak

Why not have a reduced price for new entrants?

Offer a €10 price point for new attendees to an inferno tourny who've never entered before or have only been to casuals.

€15 could be off putting to some folk for possibly just 3 or 4 group matches is steep whatever way you look at it.
And as we all know sometimes it's hard to get in on a casual machine, unless you're willing to say "I got next" you could very well be standing there for ever when folks are using a machine, can be intimidating to some if they are there on there tod or know no-one else.

€10 for new challengers, entry to the tourney and all the casuals they can get in could get some new blood in and push some folk who are humming and hahing about going to a tourney,

To keep it from getting messy maybe ask folk who want to avail of the new blood price to register on SF.ie or on a thread here. Would make things fairly easy to manage.

Could be a double edged sword to both get new folk to tournies upping numbers and also involved in the community,

GorySnake

In my honest opinion, Inferno shouldnt be the focus to bring in new players, it should be casuals. At tournaments, everyone wants to come out on top, and with a big skill gap and the competitive nature of tournaments, it might scare off newcomers, unlike casuals, where everyone is more willing to teach new players and not go overkill (or was that just me?)

A-Trak

GorySnake wrote: »

In my honest opinion, Inferno shouldnt be the focus to bring in new players, it should be casuals. At tournaments, everyone wants to come out on top, and with a big skill gap and the competitive nature of tournaments, it might scare off newcomers, unlike casuals, where everyone is more willing to teach new players and not go overkill (or was that just me?)

Tournies are by far the bigger draw to new players.
Tournies draw in players from all over the country, and have attendances way over the biggest casual event.

Casuals are great for getting better, tournies are the reason for getting better.

GorySnake

It depends on the persons mindset and skill level. Brand new players could be put off.

Owwmykneecap

lol this is why i tried to run a league.

Placebo

as mentioned, i brought this up because i was told to do the poster and my sole point was that new comers will not pay 15 euros for a tournament, they might consider entering the venue cost to be 15 as well, which obviously raises the question

what is the point of the poster ?

i know the price has been discussed and agreed upon before but if you want to take 'this' further then things need to be addressed again, nothing is set in stone

anyway we can see how the 5/10 breakdown works in this inferno.

DarkTalant

I'm in favour of the €10 for new players idea...
For the poster why not put €15 as the entry cost and put a notice for special offer: €10 for new players as well.

Dreddybajs

Placebo wrote: »

anyway we can see how the 5/10 breakdown works in this inferno.

It'll work the same as it always has, since afaik this has been the way we've done it for Inferno anyway?

Owwmykneecap

The only question on breakdown i have is the €5 pays for the venue easily on a big turnout.

But what's the story with the extra, does it go into the pot, or this ever growing mysterious community fund? (funding a volcano island HQ run by FAS no doubt)

(btw i don't know the details but if Doom and Chunkis and or anyone else paid personal money to help azza's evo trip, they should be refunded from the community pot, it's only right)




Anyway here's a thought that's kinda related and not at the same time.

A spot prize.
In snooker The highest break/ 147 gets a bonus prize.

Why don't we give the person who gets the most perfects in competition on the day, a prize?

Dreddybajs

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

(btw i don't know the details but if Doom and Chunkis and or anyone else paid personal money to help azza's evo trip, they should be refunded from the community pot, it's only right)

As far as I'm aware only Doom paid personal money - he doesn't have intrinsic any right to be paid from the community money imo as it was a completely voluntary donation. However I gave Doom 20 euro of my own money as I felt he did deserve money back - feel free to do the same (I presume Doom doesn't have a problem with getting more of the money back).

That's just my opinion however, maybe it's something for the committee to discuss.

Placebo

Dreddybajs wrote: »

It'll work the same as it always has, since afaik this has been the way we've done it for Inferno anyway?

So any one new coming into XGC was asked to pay €5 euro?
regardless of any participation ? this is what i meant by the grey area.

Dreddybajs

Yeah, we've said specifically for a fairly long time that you can show up and play casuals for 5 euro on Inferno days.

There's no way we could've charged just for entry seeing as we were holding the tournaments in an open gaming centre.

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

As far as I'm aware only Doom paid personal money - he doesn't have intrinsic any right to be paid from the community money imo as it was a completely voluntary donation. However I gave Doom 20 euro of my own money as I felt he did deserve money back - feel free to do the same (I presume Doom doesn't have a problem with getting more of the money back).

That's just my opinion however, maybe it's something for the committee to discuss.

Just for full disclosures sake, 2 other people paid money into the Vegas thing and I am not sure if they want to be named and it's the only reason I am not doing so.

AFAIK I paid a bit more than anyone else, however.

Just to put the nail in the coffin- I am not expecting to get the momeny back.

While I gladly took Dreddy's money (a chinese had to be bought ) I do not want anyone to feel under a complement or feel they have to give money. As far as I am concerned, this issue is happily closed.

pdbhp

Just to get back on topic about the pricing structure, I have no problem paying the €15 and anyone who checks out boards or streetfighter.ie will be easily able to understand the structure.
New comers however could be put off by the fact that if you don't get out of the groups your €15 is gone. :mad:
Why not run a seperate non qualifiers competition after the groups with a lesser prize fund (maybe only paying out to the winner).
This wouldn't be difficult to achieve and would give an added incentive to lesser players like me to come to Inferno.:D

Dreddybajs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Just for full disclosures sake, 2 other people paid money into the Vegas thing and I am not sure if they want to be named and it's the only reason I am not doing so.

Oh, yeah, dunno how I forgot those two. Apologies to the two of you!

animaX

pdbhp wrote: »

Why not run a seperate non qualifiers competition after the groups with a lesser prize fund (maybe only paying out to the winner).
This wouldn't be difficult to achieve and would give an added incentive to lesser players like me to come to Inferno.:D

While this is actually a good idea, there are a few issues. One is time. The other is that reducing the prize pot for the winners make the tournament less attractive to the top players which we want participating.

If we did have the time and ran a "europa league" style thing for those who are knocked out, we could maybe offer the winner of that a seeding position in the next inferno? Its an idea

pdbhp

animaX wrote: »

While this is actually a good idea, there are a few issues. One is time. The other is that reducing the prize pot for the winners make the tournament less attractive to the top players which we want participating.

If we did have the time and ran a "europa league" style thing for those who are knocked out, we could maybe offer the winner of that a seeding position in the next inferno? Its an idea

Well is the idea not to get new blood to the tourneys, this would give players a better chance of getting something out of it. Or possibly we could give free entry to the next Inferno tourney for the winner of the non qualifiers.
However if time is the limiting factor and we can only run the main tourney then why not have a best newcomer award with free entry to the next inferno.

animaX

pdbhp wrote: »

Well is the idea not to get new blood to the tourneys, this would give players a better chance of getting something out of it. Or possibly we could give free entry to the next Inferno tourney for the winner of the non qualifiers.
However if time is the limiting factor and we can only run the main tourney then why not have a best newcomer award with free entry to the next inferno.

Yeah, these are all good suggestions but the decision will not be made by me. There is a committe that can decide on these things, i'm sure they will be reading.

Don't forget that for newcomers there are always the casuals every saturday/wednesday to show up to first if they want to get their feet wet. Much cheaper too!

Dreddybajs

animaX wrote: »

If we did have the time and ran a "europa league" style thing for those who are knocked out, we could maybe offer the winner of that a seeding position in the next inferno? Its an idea

I don't agree with the idea of seeding people who got knocked out of groups and then participated in another tournament that by definition didn't have the best competition in it

animaX

Dreddybajs wrote: »

I don't agree with the idea of seeding people who got knocked out of groups and then participated in another tournament that by definition didn't have the best competition in it

True, true, i was just bouncing ideas off the guy. His suggestion of free entry to the next one could be an incentive

Such a side-track tourny shouldn't be handled by the main organisers of course, it would cause a huge headache. Actually now that i think of it, it would also deflect attention away from the main games which really should be watched. I was disappointed last time to see others playing casuals while grand finals were on

Dreddybajs

Sure, though I'm wary of giving the OK on something like that especially when it's our first time in this venue, and it's basically a test run. I have a feeling things are going to be hectic enough as is, especially when we have to be done and out by 6.

pdbhp

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Sure, though I'm wary of giving the OK on something like that especially when it's our first time in this venue, and it's basically a test run. I have a feeling things are going to be hectic enough as is, especially when we have to be done and out by 6.

Twas only a suggestion for the future to get new bodies to the tourney.
Inferno 11 should go as usual and if the committee wish to look further into running a non qualifiers event then we can attack the problem when the time arises.
Me personally I think the events are run fine having only been to one event spectating it all looked ok to me so I am happy to proceed with the competition as is.

Sisko

Ah for feck sake I'm only seeing this thread now.

And I'm after already posting this:

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I've already said at least a dozen times that I can't understand anyone complaining about €15 entry fee. Put aside 50c every day and you have it.

Never the less many people voiced their opinions at the last inferno that it was too expensive.

I think it's healthy to have a look at the price every now and then. There doesn't need to be a massive debate , last time in the end we had a poll and 15 euro won. If the majority has changed its mind so be it, but this is not the time to bring this up I think.

Imo it should be looked at after inferno 11, for inferno 12.

The new venue is enough change for one event as it is.

Placebo

Exactly

First and foremost the issue is to entice new competitors, to grow the community. The amount €15 as already stated is not an attractive price for new comers.Looking at the demographic and going by the academic/working situation of the current 'competitors', its a FACT that the price is a bit much to attract new players.

The price may suffice the rental and prize pot and other circumstance but by no means it warrants it to be the RIGHT PRICE. If you explain that to a new face, his response would be along the lines of TOUGH.

While i'm not proposing a NEW solution, i'm WAS simply stating the fact, probably for the 4th/5th time that such a price on the poster will not do the event any favours but instead waste time and effort.

Also theory of putting 5Oc aside, lol.

and just to quote myself previously

i really couldn't give a toss about 15 euro,

I make more than that in an hour easy :rolleyes: but obviously the main point never really got addressed by the regulars, instead they jumped on me with 'been discussed before, next lolz'

ANYWAY whos getting the poster printed and where, would be a good test to see if we get any extra players.

Doctor DooM

I'm not in favour of doing anything to the price until we see if this area 346457643234534956 experiment works out.

TBH I think we should be focusing our efforts on helping the 'Chop and the 'Rim make it viable.

THEN we can worry about money. Especially considering there's already been multiple votes on it.

Sisko

Yeah I totally see where your coming from farz and generally agree after the last inferno a lot of people were talking about the price. I told them it was a little taboo to bring up but I will at the right moment (was waiting till after this one)

I'd also like to say, the fact there was votes before is not a reason to never vote again on something such as this.

Placebo

sure we can see how this inferno goes as brian said.
If we have a large turnout with new faces then there wont be much need to change anything.

Doctor DooM

Im not saying once something is decided it should be set in stone for a 1,000 years. Just I think literally right now all we should be thinking about it supporting this venture which could turn our little community into something a bit more. We're all talented people in our own ways and I really think we shouldn't be doing this at least until I X I (Inferno 11, see what I did there?) is done so we can help however it is we're able to help TO THE MAX.

Sisko

Yeah this is a discussion for after this next event.