Road Safety

si_guru

Okay.. Maybe this is a bit controversial.

But given the steady and extremely sad death toll of young drivers… is it time Ireland had a driving curfew?

(Sensible thoughts only please)

Gumbo

why discrimante because of age?
ive seen old men and old women nearly causing accidents many of time.

i think its better to restrict learners similar to the way motorcylce learners are restricted.

si_guru

kceire wrote: »

why discrimante because of age?
ive seen old men and old women nearly causing accidents many of time.

i think its better to restrict learners similar to the way motorcylce learners are restricted.

I hear your point... and you are right in some respects. But I would be for a curfew simply to save the lifes of young people. Too many night time accidents lead to the pointless waste of young lives.

Mr. Presentable

When was the last time you saw 8 old men or women in one car?

The trouble with curfew and similar solutions is enforcement. Not gonna happen. Education is also a waste of time for certain members of our society. You can't tell me there are still people who haven't seen the RSA adverts featuring young people in crashes.

Maybe if roads were a little better in rural areas, but I think certain people would just go faster.

Also, the condition of the roads has been cited by Donegal residents in reference to last nights tragedy. Is the irony of not paying VRT and tax lost on them?

robbie_998

si_guru wrote: »

I hear your point... and you are right in some respects. But I would be for a curfew simply to save the lifes of young people. Too many night time accidents lead to the pointless waste of young lives.

why should young drivers have to suffer just for the sake of a few muppets ?

mickydoomsux

Also, a curfew won't be obeyed by people who would drive a car with 8 people in it. And alcohol is quite often a factor in a lot of these late night multiple-youngster fatal crashes but he media tends to gloss over that and focus on the tradgedy.

Sometimes people do dumb stuff and get away with it. Other times 8 people die because of it. A lot of accident prevention is just being responsible and thinking about the consequences of you actions much like what the road safety advertisements are espousing.

si_guru

robbie_998 wrote: »

why should young drivers have to suffer just for the sake of a few muppets ?

You are right too. But we have to have speed limits too as a few muppets would drive at 200kph down the liffy bypass unless you told them the speed limit was 80kph.

Many US states have curfews to try and address these problems.

Also let's be honest about this, it is not some fat, bald, 42 yr old father (that's me) that does donuts all night on the N69!!!

Riskymove

si_guru wrote: »

Okay.. Maybe this is a bit controversial.

But given the steady and extremely sad death toll of young drivers… is it time Ireland had a driving curfew?

(Sensible thoughts only please)

like many other road laws......would it be enforced or abided by?

si_guru

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Also, a curfew won't be obeyed by people who would drive a car with 8 people in it. And alcohol is quite often a factor in a lot of these late night multiple-youngster fatal crashes but he media tends to gloss over that and focus on the tradgedy.

Sometimes people do dumb stuff and get away with it. Other times 8 people die because of it. A lot of accident prevention is just being responsible and thinking about the consequences of you actions much like what the road safety advertisements are espousing.

Yes I agree.. but because society allows it. Same way we used to sit in pubs and puff away giving each other lung cancer (ex-smoker talking).

..now if you light up in pub you'd be shot - no Gardai present.

MarkN

I'd love to know which is the worst county to drive in in this country. My guess is Donegal. I don't know what it is or why it is but it always seems to come off worst.

OldmanMondeo

A curfew would be unworkable. As it stands Drink Driving, speed, joy riding all still happen even with the laws we have against them.

Also on the Crash, may the people invovled Rest In peace, The Passat with the 8 lads in it was invovled in a minor crash 200 metres before hand, according to radio news reports. Lets face it, spped was a major factor in the 8 being killed. I woudl guess that the driver of the Corolla was in all probabality speeding and hit the passat. This is my view of the accident from hearing various news reports and would not expect this to be taken as was actually happened.

robbie_998

si_guru wrote: »

You are right too. But we have to have speed limits too as a few muppets would drive at 200kph down the liffy bypass unless you told them the speed limit was 80kph.

Many US states have curfews to try and address these problems.

Also let's be honest about this, it is not some fat, bald, 42 yr old father (that's me) that does donuts all night on the N69!!!

and im a sinigle 18 year old male with a part time job and im not doing it either !

stevenmu

I don't think time of night has been a causal factor in many crashes, the main causal factor IMHO would be stupid/reckless driving. There is already laws in place to prevent this, if these laws are not being obeyed and/or enforced enough then I don't think adding more laws which won't be obeyed and/or enforced will do much good.

djimi

No, I dont see what benefit a curfew would be at all.

The Gardai need to police the driving laws properly. Prosecute learners driving on their own, seriously clamp down on drink driving (I mean properly, not just one or two nights around bank holidays), be more aggressive with regards policing the driving laws in general in this country.

I also feel that the drivers license should be revised somewhat. Introduce various stages of progression, so that someone with 0-2 years experience can only drive certain cars, and then as you progress and build up more years conviction free you can drive bigger cars and more powerful cars. I honestly believe that there are a lot of cars being driven in this country that should require the driver to be at least 28 with 10 years full clean driving behind them before they are allowed behind the wheel of them. As it stands providing they can get insurance an 18 year old with bugger all driving experience can drive a car like a Skyline or a Supra, and that to me is just plain wrong.

djimi

si_guru wrote: »

You are right too. But we have to have speed limits too as a few muppets would drive at 200kph down the liffy bypass unless you told them the speed limit was 80kph.

Many US states have curfews to try and address these problems.

Also let's be honest about this, it is not some fat, bald, 42 yr old father (that's me) that does donuts all night on the N69!!!

So youre answer is to punish everyone who isnt over 40, married with kids and driving a 1.4l Focus?

si_guru

robbie_998 wrote: »

and im a sinigle 18 year old male with a part time job and im not doing it either !

..and neither did I at 18. So I know not all teens are a bad lot.. you know what them lads in Donegal were probably alright - they just made a bad choice due to lack of experience.

But we need to find a way to reverse number of youngsters being hurt or killed. Some times the measures need to be tough but we have to take them.

Crash helmets... back in the seventies I wonder how many bikers said that law was too draconian. We'd all find it laughable now not to wear one.

I am not saying a curfew is morally right, just questioning if it the only was to resolve the problem?

mickydoomsux

djimi wrote: »

As it stands providing they can get insurance an 18 year old with bugger all driving experience can drive a car like a Skyline or a Supra, and that to me is just plain wrong.

They'll be equally well able to wrap themselves around a telephone pole at 2am in their grannies 1.0L spoilered and bean-tinned up Corsa. It's an attitude thing. Some people are, unfortunately, pretty much destined to have an accident because of how they drive.

robbie_998

djimi wrote: »

So youre answer is to punish everyone who isnt over 40, married with kids and driving a 1.4l Focus?

which is why a curfew wouldn't work.... ok punish every under 40 is a bit silly but what your saying is the general jist of it and i agree with it completly.

i only want a car thats a reasonable size, diesel and will get me from A to B.

i don't want and of this bollox with spoilers, noisy exhausts , rims and all that ****e.

robbie_998

si_guru wrote: »

..and neither did I at 18. So I know not all teens are a bad lot.. you know what them lads in Donegal were probably alright - they just made a bad choice due to lack of experience.

But we need to find a way to reverse number of youngsters being hurt or killed. Some times the measures need to be tough but we have to take them.

Crash helmets... back in the seventies I wonder how many bikers said that law was too draconian. We'd all find it laughable now not to wear one.

I am not saying a curfew is morally right, just questioning if it the only was to resolve the problem?

I agree but clamping down on EVERYONE that is a young driver is a bit silly even if they dont do anything bad

djimi

mickydoomsux wrote: »

They'll be equally well able to wrap themselves around a telephone pole at 2am in their grannies 1.0L spoilered and bean-tinned up Corsa. It's an attitude thing. Some people are, unfortunately, pretty much destined to have an accident because of how they drive.

Yes but lets not give them 3.5L twin turbo RWD supercars to do it in! Someone with no experience driving a powerful RWD in wet conditions is far more likely to crash it than they would be driving a 1.2L FWD car. Its all about experience. Ive been driving for nigh on ten years and I drove a Supra not so long ago and struggled to keep the back from kicking out. No way someone with little or no experience should be allowed to drive such a thing.

djimi

si_guru wrote: »

..and neither did I at 18. So I know not all teens are a bad lot.. you know what them lads in Donegal were probably alright - they just made a bad choice due to lack of experience.

But we need to find a way to reverse number of youngsters being hurt or killed. Some times the measures need to be tough but we have to take them.

Crash helmets... back in the seventies I wonder how many bikers said that law was too draconian. We'd all find it laughable now not to wear one.

I am not saying a curfew is morally right, just questioning if it the only was to resolve the problem?

How about getting more guards on the roads first before we start considering downright lazy methods of policing? Bigger garda presence on the roads with a less tolerant attitude would a lot further than introducing curfews...

TestTransmission

robbie_998 wrote: »

which is why a curfew wouldn't work.... ok punish every under 40 is a bit silly but what your saying is the general jist of it and i agree with it completly.

i only want a car thats a reasonable size, diesel and will get me from A to B.

i don't want and of this bollox with spoilers, noisy exhausts , rims and all that ****e.

robbie_998 wrote: »

I agree but clamping down on EVERYONE that is a young driver is a bit silly even if they dont do anything bad

Doesn't make you any less likely to crash though.

You're young,male and unexperienced...this makes you far more likely to crash than say someone in their 30's driving 10 years.

si_guru

djimi wrote: »

So youre answer is to punish everyone who isnt over 40, married with kids and driving a 1.4l Focus?

No.. but you know what, statisically they are less likely to kill themselves or someone else.

Genuinely... and repeating myself. I just wonder if there is a way to keep a few more young lads alive and stop more parents having broken hearts.

I too agree that "policing" is the problem.. and ideally there would be a Gardai on every street to stop all this happening.

si_guru

LIGHTNING wrote: »

As tragic as the death is the driver cant take all the blame. After all the people werent forced into the car, you have to exercise some common sense.

I wont get into a car that if I think either a)the car isnt safe or b)the driver isnt up to the task.

But peer pressure is fierce right?

djimi

si_guru wrote: »

No.. but you know what, statisically they are less likely to kill themselves or someone else.

Genuinely... and repeating myself. I just wonder if there is a way to keep a few more young lads alive and stop more parents having broken hearts.

I too agree that "policing" is the problem.. and ideally there would be a Gardai on every street to stop all this happening.

So why not bring in a law that means you cannot get a drivers license until you are 40 years old? Following your logic it would be the safest thing to do; take the problem off the road altogether like.

Gumbo

what about young people that work shift hours?

you want to make them redundant now?

smemon

Perhaps for drivers who've passed their test in the last 6 months or something but it's just another rule that wouldn't be enforced.

Ignore last night's 'tragedy'... no amount of laws or rules would have stopped that so it's pointless bringing up this debate now.

People have to accept that zero deaths on roads isn't realistic in this day and age. In the future, maybe.

Where you have humans, you have bad judgement, complacency, ignorance etc... That's exactly what we seen last night and it's the main cause for most other fatalities too.

Rules of the road won't stop that... education in school, at a very early age might.

Anan1

smemon wrote: »

Ignore last night's 'tragedy'... no amount of laws or rules would have stopped that so it's pointless bringing up this debate now.

Enforcement of the current laws might have.

si_guru

djimi wrote: »

So why not bring in a law that means you cannot get a drivers license until you are 40 years old? Following your logic it would be the safest thing to do; take the problem off the road altogether like.

You know what curfew means right?

Cuddlesworth

I can't wait to see Gaybo's response to this.

"I vow to put twice as many speed cameras on motorways and dual carriageways to stamp out this back ally speeding"

si_guru

kceire wrote: »

what about young people that work shift hours?

you want to make them redundant now?

Of course they would need to be exceptions or employers provide transport..

congo_90

If a curfew was enforced what benefit would it have? Ok we (young male drivers) can't drive at night.
That immediatly puts me back onto the dole as I am a barman so getting home in the early hours isn't unusal.

young drivers can still speed and kill themselves no matter what time of day it is. The only thing is to try create awareness like the drink driving ad a while back where your man flattens a kid through a fence.

djimi

si_guru wrote: »

You know what curfew means right?

Of course I know what a curfew means. Im just taking it to the next logical step, which is lets just take everyone under the age of 40 off the road, seeing as how in your eyes they are statistically so much more likely to cause a fatal accident; irradicate the problem altogether like.

See how ridiculous blanket discrimination sounds? :rolleyes:

Cabaal

nipplenuts wrote: »

Also, the condition of the roads has been cited by Donegal residents in reference to last nights tragedy. Is the irony of not paying VRT and tax lost on them?

RTE's photo of the road is


More then 15miles of the road I drive twice a day is narrower then that and has no white line in the middle (can just about pass a truck on it),

In comparison that road in the photo looks great

elvis99

As a 20 year road user. I feel putting a curfew on drivers would be ridiculous, why? because so many people will break it. And the typical attitude among older people of it being ''grand to have a few pints'' has to change. To this day I still see it. Also garda enforcement must be improved, not just picking one or two drunk drivers every 6 months. I speak for my own rural area, which imo still has a ludricrious attitude.

Cabaal

djimi wrote: »

Of course I know what a curfew means. Im just taking it to the next logical step, which is lets just take everyone under the age of 40 off the road, seeing as how in your eyes they are statistically so much more likely to cause a fatal accident; irradicate the problem altogether like.

See how ridiculous blanket discrimination sounds? :rolleyes:

ah I see what your doing, trying to derail the thread by posting nonsense,

Good job
:rolleyes:

mailforkev

Anan1 wrote: »

Enforcement of the current laws might have.

This.

Also, I'm fed up having to stick to a limit of 60 km/h on the N11 driving past UCD for fear of getting points when some of the cruddiest backroads down the country have a higher speed limit which many still choose to ignore knowing they will never ever get stopped.

Some prioritising of what's more important by the gardaí is needed, is it safety or revenue they value most?

I don't know the age of the driver involved last night but younger/less experienced drivers should not be able to drive a car full of their mates straight off the bat, just too risky (to themselves and more importantly to the rest of us). Maybe a limit of 1 passenger for a year or two. A curfew would be too harsh on the decent young drivers IMO.

Cuddlesworth

si_guru wrote: »

Of course they would need to be exceptions or employers provide transport..

At 18 they should have the exact same entitlements as everybody else in this country. Imposed driving restrictions would do little to nothing to stop the minor amount of road deaths we get per year but cause huge amounts of difficulty and heartache for many people around this country.

Would you like to impose restrictions on Black drivers if the stats showed they were more likely to crash? How about drivers from council estates? While we are at it we could stick tracking bracelets on them because of the increased chance of violent crime. Kill two birds with one stone and all that.

Seriously, you more likely to die from a simple accident every year then a car crash. Maybe we should just lock everybody into padded rooms so we can bring down those stats as well. Monitor their food intake to stop them getting fat, we can bring down weight related obesity deaths as well.

At what point does removing freedom from one distinctive section of society become unacceptable in your eyes? And at what point does it stop being acceptable for somebody else?

MarkN

MarkN wrote: »

I'd love to know which is the worst county to drive in in this country. My guess is Donegal. I don't know what it is or why it is but it always seems to come off worst.

Yep, I also notice that loads of the AE86 Corolla, WRX Subaru, EVOs etc are Donegal registered. I've never actually been in Donegal myself. There is a huge interest in motorsport there I believe.

robbie_998

TestTransmission wrote: »

Doesn't make you any less likely to crash though.

You're young,male and unexperienced...this makes you far more likely to crash than say someone in their 30's driving 10 years.

I don't see how... i passed my test with no problems at all.. only 2 grade 2's ... being driving a year now.. (had license since 17) no problem, never speed, take law seriously and what not. never have i been in trouble and i've being stopped a few times for check points and breath tests and that.

this could end up being a debate just like women vs men for car insurance price.

my dad has being driving for 4 years and is over 50 and he has had 4 crashes ... two of them he crashed into poles and one of them he wrote off a car.

i have had no crashes so already based on that i am less risk than my dad but yet on the same car he pays 600 euro for insurance where im stuck with over 2000 !

daveharnett

si_guru wrote: »

But given the steady and extremely sad death toll of young drivers… is it time Ireland had a driving curfew?

I wouldn't accept any driving restriction which discriminates based on age.
WRT motoring law, fully licensed drivers are considered first class citizens regardless of age, and that's as it should be.

I have all sorts of problems with the state of driver education here, particularly the test, but that's a whole other thread.

As to comments about enforcement: while we'd all love to see more Gardai on the roads, all the enforcement on the world won't stop young lads in Donegal killing themselves. Even if you tripled the number of Gardai, they would still be facing

• A large road network with tiny population density.
• A long open border which Gardai can't generally cross.
• Laughable punishments when arrests and convictions are secured.
• Most significantly, a culture where it's cool to act the t*t behind the wheel.

The fact is that young people are easily led. In this part of the country, they are being lead by their peers into boxy starlets, and then into trees. IMO the motorsport community are the only group in a position to affect a real change in driver attitude here. There is a time and place for driving like a loon, and the middle of the night on an open road is neither.

djimi

Cabaal wrote: »

ah I see what your doing, trying to derail the thread by posting nonsense,

Good job
:rolleyes:

How am I posting nonsense? He is trying to suggest the way forward is to enforce a curfew based on age. Im trying to show how utterly ridiculous it is to discriminate against people solely based on their age.

TestTransmission

robbie_998 wrote: »

I don't see how... i passed my test with no problems at all.. only 2 grade 2's ... being driving a year now.. (had license since 17) no problem, never speed, take law seriously and what not. never have i been in trouble and i've being stopped a few times for check points and breath tests and that.

this could end up being a debate just like women vs men for car insurance price.

my dad has being driving for 4 years and is over 50 and he has had 4 crashes ... two of them he crashed into poles and one of them he wrote off a car.

i have had no crashes so already based on that i am less risk than my dad but yet on the same car he pays 600 euro for insurance where im stuck with over 2000 !

Yes,I'm sorry.You're driving a year,you are the greatest driver in the world.
My apologies.

daveharnett

Cabaal wrote: »

RTE's photo of the road is


More then 15miles of the road I drive twice a day is narrower then that and has no white line in the middle (can just about pass a truck on it),

In comparison that road in the photo looks great

Agreed, that road surface looks better than 90% of R roads in the country. Based on my very limited experience, I'd say that roads in donegal are of a higher standard than their equivalents (by traffic volume) elsewhere.

robbie_998

TestTransmission wrote: »

Yes,I'm sorry.You're driving a year,you are the greatest driver in the world.
My apologies.

nobody said that.

im just stating the facts here.

peasant

Road safety is still very much a mindset problem here, there is no consequent approach to it. We have:
- a man without a driving licence as RSA spokesman
- speed limit signs plastered all over the country that do not reflect the state of the road
- very little enforcement of existing rules (drive through a checkpoint with non-working lights as long as your tax is ok)
- gardai on provisional licences and gardai driving like idiots (without the sirens on)
- speed checks almost only in fish in the barrel locations
- as this forum shows, generally a very poor understanding of the rules of the road
- roads that are lethal with potholes, no markings and dangerous bends
- poor roadside maintenance (drainage !)

and list could made go on forever ...


In an environment where basically no-one gives a f*ck (other than a few TV ads) ...who can blame young fellas for taking liberties.

daveharnett

TestTransmission wrote: »

Doesn't make you any less likely to crash though.

You're young,male and unexperienced...this makes you far more likely to crash than say someone in their 30's driving 10 years.

That's not really true TT. A randomly selected (or perfectly average) person of his age is more likely to crash.

If you're talking about statistics, talk about statistics - don't personalize them. The guy you are fighting with seems to have a good attitude, which I would consider to be a much better predictor of safety than his age.

tommyhaas

I dont think anybody here can honestly say 'I never brake the speed limit', yet thats not to say all here are bad drivers.

Speed limits in certain parts of the country are ridiculously low (a good example being dual carrage-ways in Dublin with limits of 60 kmph), in many other parts of the country however, speed limits are far more sensable.

IMO, sensable limits should be applied through out the country, making complying with the spped limits far more practicable. Anyone who has ever attempted to comply with the 60kmph limit on the M50 can relate to this.

Speeding offences could then be dealt with more severely by increasing the fine and points. Insurance companies could increase the loading on points received as a result of speeding/dangerous driving.

By adjusting the speed limit to a realistic & safe limit, speeding convictions could become a stigma, in the same sense drink driving has over the last number of years.

The Gards also should be forced to conduct speed checks in a sensable manner. Focusing on accident black-spots and dangerous roads will have an effect. Catching someone doing 67 on a 60 dual carraigeway wont. Some common sense needs to be shown

WRT to the curfew. I reckon its bollox. By the same logic we could just ban the use of cars altogether, that'd reduce the number killed

robbie_998

daveharnett wrote: »

That's not really true TT. A randomly selected (or perfectly average) person of his age is more likely to crash.

If you're talking about statistics, talk about statistics - don't personalize them. The guy you are fighting with seems to have a good attitude toward, which I would consider to be a much better predictor of safety than his age.

Thank you.

The only time i actually do drive is very rarely when i need to go to work but that is very rare as i just get to use my dads car from time to time.

but regularly i pick him up from the local establishment to bring him home safely which is usually at about 1am.

Sunday night driving down by the wheatfield prison there was a fecking B&Q trolley on the road sitting on the left hand side of the left lane facing out... my reaction was quick...

my choice was to either slow down quickly and hopefully the guy behind me in the black saloon won't hit me.

or

look ahead for oncoming traffic and moving out very early down the road before the trolley to allow the guy behind me to see why i moved out to the right going over the dotted white line.

I chose the second option... it went well... there was no accident.

daveharnett

tommyhaas wrote: »

IMO, sensable limits should be applied through out the country, making complying with the spped limits far more practicable. Anyone who has ever attempted to comply with the 60kmph limit on the M50 can relate to this.

Speeding offences could then be dealt with more severely by increasing the fine and points. Insurance companies could increase the loading on points received as a result of speeding/dangerous driving.

By adjusting the speed limit to a realistic & safe limit, speeding convictions could become a stigma, in the same sense drink driving has over the last number of years.

While I absolutely agree that lots of speed limits are pretty farcical, I'd be doubtful enough about the part above in bold. To achieve that would require raising the limit to the highest conceivable safe speed (IE at least 160 on good stretches of Mway). That would mean that the posted limit would be unsafe (traffic conditions, weather) most of the time. I'm not sure the Irish motorist is evolved enough to pick a safe speed for themselves tbh.

ardmacha

Agreed, that road surface looks better than 90% of R roads in the country. Based on my very limited experience, I'd say that roads in donegal are of a higher standard than their equivalents (by traffic volume) elsewhere.

A local councillor interviewed described the road as a "fairly good one".
In any case it is up to driver to drive according to the road. Ireland is always going to have twisty roads.

In an environment where basically no-one gives a f*ck (other than a few TV ads) ...who can blame young fellas for taking liberties.

I blame them. Someone else doing it doesn't provide any justification for you driving dangerously.

I am all in favour of all the things mentioned in this thread e.g. better enforcement etc, but people have to have personal responsibility.