Does Ireland have too many local authorities?

Ren2k7

Hi all. First post on boards. I couldn't find a thread dealing with this topic so I went and created a thread regarding Irelands local authorities and whether there is too many of them.

Given the state of our countrys finances is it worth having 34 local bodies for a population of just under 4.5 million people and are we getting value for money from the various county and city councils.

Below is a map of Ireland I knocked together showing a "possible" amalgamation of local government into 9 regional authorities each centred around one major growth town/city as well as population figures.



This is only a suggestion of one possible scenario. Any thoughts?

Sulmac

First of all, welcome to boards.ie, OP - based on your first post, you seem to have a lot of good ideas.

Local government in Ireland is a mess. Almost everyone agrees with this. Local authorities are strapped for cash, have little power and are dependent on the central government for funding.

We have 34 county/city councils and 75 town/borough councils. That is quite a lot, given the vast differences in population and demography. I mean, look at these extremes:

Dublin City Council - 506,211
...
Leitrim County Council - 28,950

and

Dundalk Town Council - 29,037
...
Ballybay Town Council - 407

Another problem these authorities have is their borders. Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and (to an extent) Galway cities stretch far beyond their borders into neighbouring authorities, some towns (Athlone, Drogheda) are split by county boundaries. This GAA county mentality has got to stop. Local government should be based around urban areas (or, in rural areas, groups of villages), not the system given to us by the British over a hundred years ago.

I would favour something like you have proposed, OP, and have previously suggested having a two-tier system (like most European countries do) based around something like the eight regions (as all but one - Border - are based around a relatively large urban area), with smaller municipalities (similar to the old rural districts and based around cities, towns, certain large villages, groups of islands, etc.) inside each region.

Regions would be given a lot of power from the central government to run themselves (such as transport), and crucially, fund themselves. Municipalities would be pretty much similar to what local authorities are now - dealing with day-to-day issues such as refuse collection, local parks, etc. They could also raise their own revenue, but would also get money from the regional government.

The general idea is that we have a more streamlined system, and, more importantly, that we can get the national government to care about national issues - not local issues which could be dealt with at a municipal or regional level!

mikemac

You expect Kerry people to have their regional centre in Cork? :eek::eek::eek:
Oh, I predict riots on the streets of Tralee!

Ah no, it's seems a well worked solution, welcome to boards.

In our area we have a town council, an urban district council and a county council.
And it's often the same people on all of them, it achieves very little.
First two posts here are good and could work

As said, how are you going to overcome the GAA mentality though, it won't be easy but reform could be pushed through

Ren2k7

Thanks for the welcome. Both of your replies bring up a good point. Many councils and their constituents, especially in the rural heartlands, will oppose any changes to the death as they would feel it intrudes on their regional identity and culture, even if it may be beneficial to them in the long term.

A similar plan was made in the UK a few years ago with the then Labour government attempting to bring in "Regional Assemblies" but it was voted down in the first referendum as voters saw it as another unnecessary quango. Any attempt to regionalise Ireland would have to be done in a way that showed to the electorate that any boundary changes would be beneficial to them and not just another layer of bureaucracy but rather a more efficient form of local government.

As for Kerry having Cork as their regional capital they could always rename the city Kerry . I doubt that would placate the Healy-Rae family up in the kingdom though.

Wolfe Tone

Personally I think those regions are a bit too big.

Ren2k7

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I think those regions are a bit too big.

The idea I was getting at was to provide a more efficient form of local government based on population not on the physical size of the area. Each region would have a fairly uniform population size and would be self funding through municipal taxes controlled by the regional government, albeit with central government looking after stuff like Gardai, HSE, social welfare, etc.

Each region would have all the powers currently held by city and county councils but would also have certain revenue raising powers.

The map I put together is a rough idea but is based on the concept of regions in ireland as the second poster mentioned. The traditional 32 county structure would still be used in certain situations, after all the six counties in Northern Ireland were abolished years ago but are still retained for cultural and sporting events, eg. GAA. This would still be the case in the Republic.

By moving powers away from central government to the regions it would go some way in demonstrating to Unionists in the north that their own affairs could still be retained and not infringed upon in the event of a United Ireland and that they need not fear encroachment by the government in Dublin.:) Constitutional provisionals could be put into place to ensure the rights of regional governments is not interfered with.

In fact I would go further and say that the regions would constitute the federalisation of Ireland and provide far greater democracy and accountability than the mangled mess we have at the minute.

Overheal

and excuse the gov't to make Cork City the only maternity ward in the Southwest, for example?

From what I recall people were livid enough about the Ennis-Limerick situation, and their argument had merit when it came to A&E.

As it stands if you want to analogize yourself with the US, Ireland is already doing on par with State and County level local authority by land area. I think its more a question of better defining who is responsible for what; not consolidating.

Ren2k7

With regard health services I can see merit in the idea of centralising certain non-emergency services, e.g. outpatients appointments, cancer treatment, specialist care, etc in regional centres as is the policy of the HSE today. I live in the midlands so for major treatment I would be expected to travel to Mullingar and probably Tullamore once Mullingar is downgraded. This is unfortunate but is to be expected as there isn't the population density to sustain many of these services in many scattered locations.

However, I agree that A+E services should not be cut and centralised miles from many people. If fact, it should be the one health service that is kept as local as possible as common sense will tell you that in an emergency you don't want to be travelling miles to the nearest A+E department because the one in your town hospital was closed as what has recently happened with Monaghan Hospital and Louth County Hospital in Dundalk.

gandalf

I think 9 is still too many. I would suggest 4 or 5 based on the provinces with one LA around the great Dublin area. Far too much duplication and waste as its stands for the population we have in this country. Also give councillors more decision making power and make them full time paid positions.

chughes

On the face of it Op, what you are suggesting makes sense. However, this being Ireland, it hasn't a hope in hell of being implemented. If you look at what happened when the various health authorities were amalgamated into the HSE, you still had the same employee structures which meant that all the senior positions that were available before the HSE were still there afterwards. These senior positions are much coveted and I can't see a situation being allowed to happen where senior councils positions such as county manager would be allowed to disappear.

Too many people have a vested interest in keeping the status quo so while your idea makes a lot of sense, it's just not going to happen.

rugbyman

It is interesting to read this thread.
For some years now our County Council has been taking some functions from the three townCouncils
I believe that considerable efficiencies have been introduced. I have no doubt that hundreds of jobs could be eliminated by handing over much more to the County Council., I would imagine that retiring workers will not be replaced in many cases.the process of elimination of the minor councils is actually in train and may not be a bad thing.

the present crisis has made these changes both more necessary and easier to bring about.

the great changes referred to by others, doing away with counties may well be efficient but may be a bit much at one time.
Vive la Change.

regards,Rugbyman

rugbyman

Gandalf,
re your comments on more money and more decision making powers is a wo edged sword.

responsible civil servants can make good decisions on an issue and get it by the councillors, but more power to the councillors will make fudge decisions ,based on their localities.

Though i can see merit in your proposal.

Regards, rugbyman

silverharp

if you wanted efficiency gains from a local government structure, I'd go for a structure based roughly on the provences except 3 not 4. Anything smaller and you are into serious duplication of administration costs and local empire building.

Ren2k7

chughes wrote: »

On the face of it Op, what you are suggesting makes sense. However, this being Ireland, it hasn't a hope in hell of being implemented. If you look at what happened when the various health authorities were amalgamated into the HSE, you still had the same employee structures which meant that all the senior positions that were available before the HSE were still there afterwards. These senior positions are much coveted and I can't see a situation being allowed to happen where senior councils positions such as county manager would be allowed to disappear.

Too many people have a vested interest in keeping the status quo so while your idea makes a lot of sense, it's just not going to happen.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you on this . Wasn't the old health boards referred to as "The Eleven Kingdoms" due to the way senior roles within each board were coveted by local politicians and ruled them like their own personal fiefdoms.

That would be the biggest worry I would have if amalgamation of local bodies took place but a cull of public sector workers in duplicate roles did not occur.

Sulmac

My own idea for a regional system would be something like this:



The black dots would be the regional "capitals" (the Midlands one is Athlone).

murphaph

Fair play OP, have been in favour of serious reduction in the number of agencies involved in local government for ages.

Seriously, there are BILLIONS to be saved in ireland, the government has barely scratched the surface. The ugly word is redundancies but ultimately Ireland doesn't need 40 odd payroll departments processing pay for all those local authorities, such "admin" functions could be seriously streamlined with NO EFFECT on services to the end user (except those services becoming cheaper).

I think this reform will have to come some day tbh.

Ren2k7

Sulmac wrote: »

My own idea for a regional system would be something like this:



The black dots would be the regional "capitals" (the Midlands one is Athlone).

Your suggestion is quite similar to the current regions model used in Ireland.


From Wikipedia

I think having roughly 8 regions would be the optimum number. It's still important to ensure regions are not to large to be distant and remote from its citizens so I don't think having the counties merged into four provinces would be effective.

murphaph

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I think having roughly 8 regions would be the optimum number. It's still important to ensure regions are not to large to be distant and remote from its citizens so I don't think having the counties merged into four provinces would be effective.

I think the current setup leaves people feeling about as remote from democracy as it's possible to feel as they believe everything of importance is decided "up in Dublin" and Dubs think the rural clique in Leinster House pull all the strings. Nobody is happy with the current setup (except the vested interests).

At present, many people (a majority?) call their local TD about that pothole, before the council. This mentality has got to change.

Sulmac

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Your suggestion is quite similar to the current regions model used in Ireland.

I think having roughly 8 regions would be the optimum number. It's still important to ensure regions are not to large to be distant and remote from its citizens so I don't think having the counties merged into four provinces would be effective.

I based it off the current regions, which have the right idea (being based around large cities/towns), but are unfortunately themselves made up of the current county councils.

North Mayo has gone to the North West region, since it's closer to Sligo than Galway.

North Clare (around the Burren) gone to the West, since it's closer to Galway than Limerick.

North Kerry to the Mid-West, since it's closer to Limerick than Cork.

Parts of Roscommon have gone to the Midlands, so as to not "split" towns like Athlone.

Louth has gone from the Border region to the new "Capital" region, which emcompasses the current Greater Dublin Area and bits of neighbouring counties (like South Monaghan).

I don't like the current set up of not having all of the Greater Dublin Area as one region, since Dublin's influence (in terms of services and commuters) stretches far beyond the old "County Dublin" boundaries.

The general idea was to get rid of the "sticky-outy" bits that the current regions have, and trying to make sure no part of any region is more than, say, 100km from the "capital" (although that's hard to do with the "Border" region!).

Ren2k7

Sulmac wrote: »

I based it off the current regions, which have the right idea (being based around large cities/towns), but are unfortunately themselves made up of the current county councils.

North Mayo has gone to the North West region, since it's closer to Sligo than Galway.

North Clare (around the Burren) gone to the West, since it's closer to Galway than Limerick.

North Kerry to the Mid-West, since it's closer to Limerick than Cork.

Parts of Roscommon have gone to the Midlands, so as to not "split" towns like Athlone.

Louth has gone from the Border region to the new "Capital" region, which emcompasses the current Greater Dublin Area and bits of neighbouring counties (like South Monaghan).

I don't like the current set up of not having all of the Greater Dublin Area as one region, since Dublin's influence (in terms of services and commuters) stretches far beyond the old "County Dublin" boundaries.

The general idea was to get rid of the "sticky-outy" bits that the current regions have, and trying to make sure no part of any region is more than, say, 100km from the "capital" (although that's hard to do with the "Border" region!).

There is centainly a case to be made for establishing a boundries commission to look into this matter and take on these suggestions. I doubt we here on this thread have been the first to suggest such proposals. In fact I recall some time ago reading a report calling for a regions based approach to local government with each region centred around a high growth centre.

Though I doubt any of their recommendations will be implemented such as is Ireland.:(

Ren2k7

murphaph wrote: »

At present, many people (a majority?) call their local TD about that pothole, before the council. This mentality has got to change.

I know exactly what you mean. I've heard of people in my area ringing their local TD about getting a council house. Surely the name 'council house' would suggest you call the council you live in

Sulmac

Ren2k7 wrote: »

There is centainly a case to be made for establishing a boundries commission to look into this matter and take on these suggestions. I doubt we here on this thread have been the first to suggest such proposals. In fact I recall some time ago reading a report calling for a regions based approach to local government with each region centred around a high growth centre.

What needs to be done is for them to get a blank map and draw completely new boundaries, not taking into consideration the "traditional" provincial, county or city boundaries.

Many reports have suggested a city-region based approach to local government and infrastructural development, most recently this one from Engineers Ireland that says we should base development around key centres. It would appear to be a no-brainer but it would be hell to implement due to the prevailing GAA-mentality in a lot of the country.

edit: I forgot to say, a few months ago it was reported that the government was going to bring in regional assemblies based on the current eight regions from the map above. It's a step in the right direction, if it ever comes to pass, but I'm sure it'll be implemented in some half-hearted way and we'll just end up with another layer of bureaucracy and QUANGOs.

Ren2k7

A new system that would leave Ireland with three tiers of government is expected to be proposed in a white paper to be published before the summer. The new system of regional government would include elected regional assemblies, and would result in Ireland having local, regional and national government tiers - as in many European countries.
..
Some in Fianna Fáil fear that the new proposals would erode the power of the 34 existing local authorities, and the party has set up an internal group to examine the plans. There is particular unease among senators - who rely on county councillors for their support - about proposals that would limit the current councils’ powers.

Why doesn't any of this suprise me? Do politicians only care about their own job security instead of the good of the nation or am I being to cynical? :mad:

To be honest, these plans for regional assemblies can only work if each region completely replaces the amalgamated council areas instead of simply adding another layer of government to an already bloated public sector mess.

Below the regional level there would be the regional capital district council, e.g. Cork City Council in the South West Region and other towns of a minimum size in the region would have town councils. Apart from that villages, townlands and the countryside in general would be the responsibility of the regional government.

But this is Ireland we're talking about so these plans will never see the light of day . I guess we'll see what's in the details when if the white paper is presented soon.

Sulmac

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Below the regional level there would be the regional capital district council, e.g. Cork City Council in the South West Region and other towns of a minimum size in the region would have town councils. Apart from that villages, townlands and the countryside in general would be the responsibility of the regional government.

What I would do is have municipalities below the regions. I would base it off a system found in countries like the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark (in particular - they have just undergone huge reform of local government) and Sweden.

Each substantial urban area (say, population of over 10,000-15,000) would have a municipality covering all of it (so the Dublin urban area would be across one municipality, not four local authorities like now) plus neighbouring rural areas.

In less "urban" areas, smaller towns and villages would "group" together to form one single municipality and share services. This would cover both urban and rural areas.

Certain islands (e.g. Achill Island), groups of islands (e.g. Aran Islands) and peninsulas (e.g. Inishowen) would also form their own municipalities, due to geography.

I would also have "sub-municipalities" in Dublin, due mainly to the huge size the Dublin urban area has (over 1 million people), like they have in Amsterdam. Each would have around 100,000 people but would be answerable to the main municipal authority.

Basically, the idea is that every bit of territory is part of a municipality, a region and then the State.

The idea of municipalities is to deal with local issues at the lowest level - not at a regional or national level. Local roads (potholes!), local housing, local (primary) schools, waste management, etc. should all be dealt with at the local level.

At the regional level we would have regional roads, some health services (mainly provision in the form of providing hospitals and health centres), public transport, tourism, higher education, etc. dealt with.

The national level should be reserved to issues of national importance, such as the economy or justice.

Also, I would give regions and municipalities a degree of revenue-raising abilities.

I know that, on the face of it, it appears that my idea just creates a huge amount of bureaucracy and QUANGOs, but the idea is to streamline services and have clear places to go with certain issues - instead of running off to Leinster House or your local TD every time you have a problem!

nuac

Interesting topic.

Biggest problem with local government finances is that after abolition of rates on residences in 1977 the funding lost was never properly replaced.

central government controls the cash and the decision making.

It should be looked at from the bottom up. There are some very successful Town Councils ( former Urban District Councils ) who have achieved a lot for their towns.

Nijmegen

In Ireland the tendency has largely been towards centralisation of power in Government, with a large body of local quangos left behind to suck up money and throw it around.

There is no strategy, and it is correct to say that we follow a rigid "GAA County" approach, and one of the biggest immediate issues to any rationalisation of local government is thrown up immediately in the pissing contest that becomes Kerry getting rolled into a local area with a HQ in Cork.

Ireland is a very, very small country, and we could do things a lot more efficiently if we had better local government - larger control areas with the ability to make a real impact.

But our political class like to put all the power into Dublin.

Another issue, relating to Dublin, is how in a more "federal" system we would have to redistribute wealth of the country - we could not go to a largely local-tax system because Dublin and the East tend to subsidize a huge amount of what goes on out West.

All issues to be overcome. But in general a sensible look and solution to local government should be found.

But this being the banana republic of Ireland, don't hold your breath.

silverharp

Nijmegen wrote: »

Another issue, relating to Dublin, is how in a more "federal" system we would have to redistribute wealth of the country - we could not go to a largely local-tax system because Dublin and the East tend to subsidize a huge amount of what goes on out West.

Which should stop, people ought to create or follow opportunities rather then spending their time lobbying for other taxpayers to support them. It just adds to the cost of living or everyone.

Nijmegen

silverharp wrote: »

Which should stop, people ought to create or follow opportunities rather then spending their time lobbying for other taxpayers to support them. It just adds to the cost of living or everyone.

In any country, federal or otherwise, one part of the country subsidises another. Even in the US, home of the free market etc etc.

silverharp

Nijmegen wrote: »

In any country, federal or otherwise, one part of the country subsidises another. Even in the US, home of the free market etc etc.

it doesnt make it right or sensible. Most goverments have a habit of developing unsustainable practices which are based more on political lobbying rather then a prudent use of scarce resources.

Ren2k7

The regional assemblies approach will probably be implemented in a half-arsed manner due to massive lobbying by Fianna Fail TDs and councillors and other assorted rural sorts so at the very least the government should merge some of the counties together.

For example. Cavan and Monaghan already share some services like being part of the same HSE hospital group so they could be merged. It would be relatively easy to carry out and efficiency savings could be achieved. Likewise the Westmeath County Council National Roads Office is responsible for some Longford national routes (N4, N5) as well as the two counties forming a single Dail constituency would make the merger of these two practical and sensible.

Pittens

The real problem here is the GAA. The GAA has inspired an almost ethnic like belief in the county system. I suppose the "historic" counties could be maintained as a non-legal fiction for the GAA, and other events.

otherwise good idea, OP.

Pittens

it doesnt make it right or sensible. Most goverments have a habit of developing unsustainable practices which are based more on political lobbying rather then a prudent use of scarce resources.

The thing about the centralised Irish system is ( and most people get this wrong) that even though Dublin, with it's large population, subsidies the rest of the country - the West, say - the individual guy in the West paying the same tax as a Dubliner is subsidising the Dubliner. With a federal system Dubliners would be paying more, not less, although given the reaction in Dublin to "double taxation" I think that unlikely.

Ren2k7

People needn't be afraid of losing their local identity if councils were abolished. The six counties in the north were done away with years ago but there people still display a strong assocation with each county as can be seen at GAA games.

Also we already have something like this in the republic. Irish rugby teams are organised according to the provincial system. The provinces don't exist, yet that doesn't stop people in supporting their province. Just look at the rivallry at a Leinster/Munster match.

sarkozy

Interesting idea. I did a lot of work on this in 2008/2009 during my time in an Irish think-tank.

The view I and my project came to was to go bigger and smaller by rationally reallocating functions and financial sources based on the principles of subsidiarity and strengthened democratic participation.

The role of central government in legislating and establishing national-level plans/guidelines would be strengthened but involvement at constituency/local level would be weakened.
Four or five regional authorities (with a directly elected Regional Assembly) would be created; these would have certain functions with regard to regional integrated planning, provision of services necessating cross-county-border responses such as waste disposal, health and policing, and procurement of goods/services of larger magnitudes. Regional Assemblies would also hold lower tiers to account. Regional assemblies would have a critical role in coordinating County Councils and Area Authorities.

County Councils would remain, but their roles would be reduced, with functions moved up and down the governance hierarchy. Their functions would primarily be oversight, procurement and overseeing the design and implementation of county plans.

More activity would be delegated to newly created Area Authorities (based on existing Area Committee boundaries) with functions appropriate to this level transferred. Experience has proven Area Committees to be effective sites of real, rather than virtual, participation of communities in developing and finalising detailed plans of their immediate vicinity. These committees would be directly elected and have County Councillors involved in addition to planning and other officials sitting on them. Functions at this level would include governance in education and local health services, childcare and early education, etc.

All of this is motivated by certain analysis. Firstly, the conviction that we should have a bottom-up system of national governance - local government reform means 'whole of government reform'. Secondly, that it is at the lowest appropriate level that services are most accountable and therefore most effectively delivered. Thirdly, the increasing complexity of Irish society requires new responses that allow for improved integrated planning and delivery over larger territories and greater direct engagement and accountability at local level that are accountable. Fourthly, that this is also part of a wider view to restore the Oireachtas as a national-level legislating body, not centralised local government. Overall, it is about 'democratic renewal' and improved services for citizens, particularly the most disadvantaged.

As for funding, the taxation system would have to be reformed in a way that is revenue neutral; specifically, national-level income tax would be reduced and the corresponding amount levvied in Regional Income Tax where County Councils and Area Authorities engage in budgeting processes to decide how local tax revenues would be distributed. Local charges may also apply to influence human behaviour, but this also must be revenue neutral.

PS: Personally, I would like to see county councils abolished, but counties retained for Dáil elections. Regional and Area boundaries would be redrawn and therefore the link between local and central government would be broken, signalling a new footing on which national governance functions.

OP: yours is an alternative solution which I look forward to discussing. Also, what's your interest in all this? Clearly you've been very much involved in working on something.

Ren2k7

sarkozy wrote: »

OP: yours is an alternative solution which I look forward to discussing. Also, what's your interest in all this? Clearly you've been very much involved in working on something.

I haven't been involved with this issue in any real way on a professional level. Certainly not with a think tank anyway.:D But yeah, it is a subject which I'm interested with a lot and is an area which needs radical overhaul.

Since the days of independence successive governments have distrusted local government, in some cases justified due to corruption within rural district councils prior to their abolition. But now is the time for central government to begin trusting local bodies once more and move power away from Government Buildings to regional bodies.

The current regional authorities are a step in the right direction. I am now of the opinion that the best solution would be to ensure the regional authorities are given legitimacy by providing for direct elections to these bodies with a range of new powers given to them.

There should ideally exist three levels of government: Central Government, Regional Government and local District Councils.

Central Government would be tasked with matters such as:

• the economy
• justice
• defence
• fiscal policy
• foreign relations
• natural resources

Regional government would have powers which included but not limited to:

• Primary and community health services
• primary and secondary education
• emergency services such as fire, ambulance and civil defence
• housing
• planning
• roads (in coordination with the NRA)
• public transportation (in coordination with the NTA), for example in the Dublin region the regional body there would have responsibility for Dublin Bus, Dart and Luas services in a similar manner that Transport for London and the Greater London Authority has responsibility for public transport in the Greater London region.

Below regional authorities would be a system of district councils that existed prior to the abolition of the Rural District Councils in 1925 leaving just the Urban District Councils, today Town Councils. They would be tasked with issues that affected people at a local level such as the provision of community facilities (municipal parks, youth clubs, etc), group water schemes in rural areas, library services and swimming and leisure facilities amongst other needed services in the community.

expectationlost

we already have a regional government http://www.iro.ie/

water is the most important asset in any area, split the authorities up into the areas that they derive water from




you would split the areas up into existing hydromatic areas

and we can have the local government at a lower subsection of these maps based on more local water basins,

i did little research example here http://irlbioregion.wikispaces.com/


more maps of waste waster areas in law
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/si/0048.html

interactive maps http://watermaps.wfdireland.ie/

Ren2k7

expectationlost wrote: »

we already have a regional government http://www.iro.ie/

water is the most important asset in any area, split the authorities up into the areas that they derive water from


we can have the local governement a another subsection of this maps based on more local water basins i id little research example here http://irlbioregion.wikispaces.com/

more maps
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/si/0048.html

Interesting idea. I can't say I've seen that map before. Unfortunately this proposal would probably only work in the event of Irish unification as there are regions overlapping the border. Although it may be a useful concept if used by All-Ireland institutions such as Waterways Ireland.

expectationlost

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Interesting idea. I can't say I've seen that map before. Unfortunately this proposal would probably only work in the event of Irish unification as there are regions overlapping the border. Although it may be a useful concept if used by All-Ireland institutions such as Waterways Ireland.

don't think you could plan anything in ireland without attention to these maps, theres already a high level of cooperation between practical agencies north and south

could prevent this http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0714/1224274660568.html Council seeks to pump water daily from Shannon to Dublin

Sulmac

That water source map is very interesting! It reminds me of the Dutch waterschappen which are the oldest form of local governance in the Netherlands - mainly due to their responsibility of making sure most of the country that lies below sea level doesn't flood!

Also, the map might be a bit muddled in future as it looks like Dublin is set to take water from the Shannon. :pac:

Still, an interesting concept - water is the most important asset after all!

edit: @Ren2k7, I agree 100% with your post above (post 35). Though I would add that the national government should be responsible for a lot of policy (such as health and education) but the regional and local governments should be responsible for the delivery.

jd

Pittens wrote: »

The thing about the centralised Irish system is ( and most people get this wrong) that even though Dublin, with it's large population, subsidies the rest of the country - the West, say - the individual guy in the West paying the same tax as a Dubliner is subsidising the Dubliner. With a federal system Dubliners would be paying more, not less, although given the reaction in Dublin to "double taxation" I think that unlikely.

Could you please explain how this stacks up?

If there is a net subsidy of €X from Dublin to the West, how can you say "he individual guy in the West paying the same tax as a Dubliner is subsidising the Dubliner"

mikemac

jd wrote: »

Could you please explain how this stacks up?

If there is a net subsidy of €X from Dublin to the West, how can you say "he individual guy in the West paying the same tax as a Dubliner is subsidising the Dubliner"

Suppose the Dubliner and the Galweigan (no idea how to spell it ) have the same salary and pay the same tax.
Only the person in Dublin has far, far more facilities at their disposal.
A luas, an independent bus company dedicated to their city, an international airport capable of trans atlantic flights
All those facilities cost money and take hundreds of millions to fund.
Two taxpayers pay the same but only one gets use of them.

That's what I understood from it anyway

baztard

Pittens wrote: »

The real problem here is the GAA. The GAA has inspired an almost ethnic like belief in the county system. I suppose the "historic" counties could be maintained as a non-legal fiction for the GAA, and other events.

otherwise good idea, OP.

Ireland has too many local councils... and its the GAA's fault. Thats a highly intelligent argument, well done. This has nothing got to do with the GAA at all, so please stop bringing them up, its silly. We have county councils not GAA councils!

The EU parliament constituencies or sometihng very close to them would be ideal. The areas are small enough to keep some sort of local feel to them but big enough to make there be only 4 of them.

Sulmac

baztard wrote: »

Ireland has too many local councils... and its the GAA's fault. Thats a highly intelligent argument, well done. This has nothing got to do with the GAA at all, so please stop bringing them up, its silly. We have county councils not GAA councils!

The EU parliament constituencies or sometihng very close to them would be ideal. The areas are small enough to keep some sort of local feel to them but big enough to make there be only 4 of them.

The GAA isn't the cause of why we have the local government system we have, but it is one of the main obstacles to major reform. "County pride" and all that.

Pittens

Ireland has too many local councils... and its the GAA's fault. Thats a highly intelligent argument, well done. This has nothing got to do with the GAA at all, so please stop bringing them up, its silly. We have county councils not GAA councils!

I understand that some fans of the GAA have thin skins because of the attacks on "bogball" etc. Me, I love watching hurling and football in Summer albeit from England these days. I am not really blaming the GAA for this, just saying that peoples identity as Kerrymen, or Cork men is stronger than similar county identities around the world.

For instance the Republic does not have 26 counties: Dublin has 4 counties, Tipperary 2 ridings. But everybody sees Dublin County as still existing although it doesn't really.

Anyway, English cricket teams are formed from counties which dont exist anymore so the issue is not a big one.

jd

feelingstressed wrote: »

Suppose the Dubliner and the Galweigan (no idea how to spell it ) have the same salary and pay the same tax.
Only the person in Dublin has far, far more facilities at their disposal.
A luas, an independent bus company dedicated to their city, an international airport capable of trans atlantic flights
All those facilities cost money and take hundreds of millions to fund.
Two taxpayers pay the same but only one gets use of them.

That's what I understood from it anyway

Of course there are more facilities and services available, thats why people live in cities. It is much more cost effective to deliver services in cities, in other words it costs more to deliver the infrastructure and services for rural inhabitants. So when you add it all up, the GDA has a net transfer to other areas to provide poorer services and infrastructure in these (more rural) areas.

With a federal system Dubliners would be paying more, not less,

This is not true, the other regions would have to make up the shortfall in the transfers from Dublin (through taxation)

murphaph

feelingstressed wrote: »

Suppose the Dubliner and the Galweigan (no idea how to spell it ) have the same salary and pay the same tax.
Only the person in Dublin has far, far more facilities at their disposal.
A luas, an independent bus company dedicated to their city, an international airport capable of trans atlantic flights
All those facilities cost money and take hundreds of millions to fund.
Two taxpayers pay the same but only one gets use of them.

That's what I understood from it anyway

I would be perfectly happy if all taxes paid in Galway stayed in Galway and all taxes in Dublin stayed in Dublin tbh. I know that the end result would be a metro for Dublin and feck all for Galway though....

Aidan1

I think any proposal with even a hope of success will have to recognise certain cultural and spatial traditions as best possible. To that end, Sulmac's proposal has a lot of merit, not least in the mid west. There are certain counties that are going to be very difficult to deal with for example. Logically, splitting Kerry on a North-South basis would make a lot of sense; South Kerry has a lot in common with West Cork, and North Kerry has very close links with County Limerick (and similarities also). But can you imagine the uproar if South Kerry were to be governed from County Hall in Cork city? Similarly, whaht about Donegal and the North Midlands? Of course the counties themselves could continue to be used for sporting or other purposes, but the county jersey syndrome runs deep, and it would take a very severe wrench to reform local Govt on more logical lines.

Also, while there is an argument for greater devolution of responsibility from the capital to regional centres in the context of such a re-organisation, there are real problems with it. People often give out stink about how centralised Ireland is - however this has happened for two simple practical reasons.

Firstly, we're a very small country - re-inventing policy on a patchwork basis is both expensive and pointless. Ireland as a whole should be considered as a single region within the EU in that context.

Secondly, Local Government in Ireland has repeatedly proven itself to be incapable of running itself in an even marginally effective manner. Just look at the sheer amount of land zoned for housing, or the plethora of Housing Agencies (90 in a country our size!), and the colossal duplication of services entirely due to individuals and organisations empire building, entirely at the taxpayers expense. Functions have been centralised largely because they are too important to be left to LAs - central Govt has been far from perfect, but they've been a lot better than most LAs. Any devolution of power down to new regional type assemblies would have to be done on a very careful basis, and there would have to be extremely careful monitoring of their functions, together with an override at national level.

expectationlost

at the moment it seems they swap meetings between cork and kerry

http://www.swra.ie/

im guessing that the counties formation themselves were influenced a great deal by physical features, by rivers, mountains plains and defensible features, and as well as resources, ye good old nodal points, and kicked who's ass in battle

again you have to base it on rivers and mountains, although often rivers split two different areas but actually the person living 1 mile either side of a river have more in common with each other then one of them and person living 10 miles from the river on their side

i like this site for simple look at how the areas coalesced over time http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/map_index.html#historical

Sulmac

I think this article from the Fine Gael website is relevant to this thread.

In short:

€31.8 Billion in tax nationally – €16.8 Billion in tax from Dublin

That's over half the tax take from around one-quarter of the population (it's based on County Dublin/the Dublin Region - four local authorities).

sarkozy

Aidan1 wrote:

Secondly, Local Government in Ireland has repeatedly proven itself to be incapable of running itself in an even marginally effective manner. Just look at the sheer amount of land zoned for housing, or the plethora of Housing Agencies (90 in a country our size!), and the colossal duplication of services entirely due to individuals and organisations empire building, entirely at the taxpayers expense. Functions have been centralised largely because they are too important to be left to LAs - central Govt has been far from perfect, but they've been a lot better than most LAs. Any devolution of power down to new regional type assemblies would have to be done on a very careful basis, and there would have to be extremely careful monitoring of their functions, together with an override at national level.

Fine, local government has in so many places failed. But has local government in this country ever been given a chance? No. In other countries, there was demand for local self-rule. In Ireland, our postcolonial politics has vested that compulsion in Fianna Fáil (and Fine Gael as the anti-FF). Decade after decade, successive FF governments have centralised rule. When rule hasn't been centralised, it's been disaggregated through quangos and the creation of fiefdoms.

Real local government has never had a chance. Real local government means letting local governments fail and letting local polities hold those elected representatives and officials to account for their failures. It's only through the long haul that this can happen, but it's necessary if communities want any democratic control over their own lives.

Pittens

Sulmac wrote: »

I think this article from the Fine Gael website is relevant to this thread.

In short:



That's over half the tax take from around one-quarter of the population (it's based on County Dublin/the Dublin Region - four local authorities).

Yes we are over-centralised.