Grafton St. repaving

Rock of Gibraltar

I saw this the other day;
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/new-grafton-st-paving-to-take-four-years-2247596.html

Does anyone have any idea what the repaved Grafton will look like? More O'Connell Street style greyscale?

cson

Tbh they should pave from Grafton all around College Green and up to O'Connell Bridge. It'd add a lot to the city having that all pedestrianised imo. It s a ****ing glorified bus depot at the moment.

murphaph

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I saw this the other day;
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/new-grafton-st-paving-to-take-four-years-2247596.html

Does anyone have any idea what the repaved Grafton will look like? More O'Connell Street style greyscale?

Probably, shame as the grafton st. area is amongst the most pleasant in Dublin. What's wrong with a bit of colour, fcuking grey granite everywhere is depressing IMO.

irishdub14

The repaving of Grafton Street will take up to four years to complete, it has been claimed.

WHAT????

sdanseo

They better keep some redbrick, O'Connell St is nice but Grafton St has character that'd be lost if they took all the brick away.

KevR

Hope they just replace the red brick rather than changing it to a dull grey brick (which we have far too much of in this country already).

Zoney

They used nice yellow stone on the Thomas Street upgrade in Limerick - one particularly nice feature is that it is brighter and *more* cheerful in rain. Let's face it - that's pretty important here in Ireland!

I like the traditional dark-bluish stone that older kerbs etc. are often made from, again this actually gets more colour in the rain.

I agree that the lightish grey used in many recent street projects is very boring looking, only saved at all by a bit of variation in the tone of it with reflective flecks too (I guess it's some form of granite?)

One thing I also don't understand about Dublin is the use of cheap red/yellow stone or rubber for those bumped surfaces at lights - in Limerick and I think in Cork, there are metal studs embedded into the stone used in the streetscape instead - far more elegant.

Alun

Zoney wrote: »

One thing I also don't understand about Dublin is the use of cheap red/yellow stone or rubber for those bumped surfaces at lights - in Limerick and I think in Cork, there are metal studs embedded into the stone used in the streetscape instead - far more elegant.

Those metal studs can get very slippery in the wet, and especially as they're there to provide guidance to blind people, that's not really a very good idea.

jack presley

If it's not broken, don't fix it! Is there really a need for this? Couldn't the money be spend elsewhere?

Eglinton

jack presley wrote: »

If it's not broken, don't fix it! Is there really a need for this? Couldn't the money be spend elsewhere?

Well, DCC could certainly keep the swimming pools opens for a start!

My question is the same. What is wrong with what's there now? It doesn't seem damaged. Looks nice. Where's the issue!

uberwolf

Eglinton wrote: »

Well, DCC could certainly keep the swimming pools opens for a start!

My question is the same. What is wrong with what's there now? It doesn't seem damaged. Looks nice. Where's the issue!

they are constantly having to patch it up and the surface is uneven and slippy with pools of water forming when it's wet.

Mr Simpson

Alun wrote: »

Those metal studs can get very slippery in the wet, and especially as they're there to provide guidance to blind people, that's not really a very good idea.

Its not only the metal studs, the grey granite also gets very slippy in the rain, becomes absolutely lethal

Pete_Cavan

cson wrote: »

Tbh they should pave from Grafton all around College Green and up to O'Connell Bridge. It'd add a lot to the city having that all pedestrianised imo. It s a ****ing glorified bus depot at the moment.

This is exactly what the city needs. A pedrestrian corridor stretching from the top of O'Connell Street to St. Stephens Green would be a great addition to the city and make it so much more attractive. With improved public transport (metro, two Luas lines, Dart Underground) there would be less need for private cars anyway so the whole corridor could be given over to public transport and pedrestrians. With a large open green space at either end (Parnell Square to the north and SSG to the south), a civic plaza at College Green in the middle and a large shopping centre at either end (Dublin Central (eventually) and SSG Shopping Centre) it would once again be the main street of the city, instead of the M50!

df1985

just get rid of the white tiles, lethal when wet!

Telchak

Missed this

From the Herald

PLANS to repave the upmarket shopping mecca of Grafton Street are to be pushed through by the end of this year.

Dublin City Council and the Dublin City Business Association (DCBA) are embarking on an extensive "vision statement" for the Grafton Street quarter.

The last time the street was repaved was over 20 years ago -- when iconic redbrick was laid as part of the Dublin millennium projects with a cost of IR£500,000.

The extensive works are continuing despite a tightened budget in the council.

However, its understood that a number of the projects in the scheme may have to be put on the backburner.

"The vision statement will contain a number of improvement proposals including the repaving of Grafton Street, improved public lighting, street furniture and an improved environment and experience," said a council spokesman.

And this week, Dublin businesses are invited to provide their own thoughts.

"So far approximately 450 views on what people like, don't like or wish to improve have been taken through on-street surveys," the spokesman said.

"In addition the approx 1,500 business owners and residents in the area have been invited to workshops on Thursday and Friday to give their views.

"Departments in Dublin City Council including planning and Development and Roads and Traffic will also give their views. There will be a wider public consultation following publication of the vision statement."

The repaving is expected to be carried out over three to four years to reduce the disturbance along the route.


centenary
DCBA chief executive Tom Coffey said the move could be a significant boost by attracting more tourists to the area.

"There will be pain, but if these kind of projects are completed for the centenary of the 1916 Rising, then we can boost tourism and have a truly modern city," he said.

The repaving of Grafton Street will be included in a complete overhaul of the areas around George's Street and Grafton Street, but the city's most expensive thoroughfare may not be first on the list of streets to be done.

donvito99

The paving there at the moment is falling apart, and there are far mopre options than just the grey granite that they used on O'CS. The current paving is dated and ugly IMO.

My choice (if they could get it) would be the original paving stones found outside College Green and around Merrion Sq/Fitzswilliam Sq, it looks great and has lasted really really long! The paving across the city needs to be standardised also, along with other things, maybe bollards, benches etc.

Aard

I'm not sure about a standardised paving across the city. I think there needs to be some demarkation of "special" areas, namely shopping districts, or historic areas like Temple Bar. It let's people know in a subtle way that this is somewhere they should come to frequently and stay/shop/meet etc.

OTOH, I agree with a standardised (to a certain extent) urban furniture range. In addition, there's just too many signs around the place. A lot of it could be streamlined or removed entirely. I like the new Docklands style signs I've seen around.

As for Grafton St itself, I like the redbrick, and that the pattern is continued to some of the neighbouring streets. I hope the latter element is kept at least, as it creates a nice flow.

murphaph

Aard wrote: »

As for Grafton St itself, I like the redbrick, and that the pattern is continued to some of the neighbouring streets. I hope the latter element is kept at least, as it creates a nice flow.

Me too. It's somehow "cosy" compared to (IMO) cold granite ala O'Connell Street.

Aard

Now that you mention it, Grafton St and OCS couldn't be more different. Apart from the obvious northside-southside lark, there's the following contrasts:

1. GS is narrower which really adds to that cosy feeling, while OCS is a broad avenue reminiscent of a soviet plough-through;
2. GS has a bend in it which reduces sight lines and makes it seem smaller, while OCS is dead-straight like some military Haussmann street;
3. GS appears softer because of the colour, while OCS has a pointy needle in the middle of it;
4. GS buildings are small and higgledy-piggledy (in a good way), while OCS has the imposing (though fantastic of course) GPO.

Anyway my point I guess is that there's no doubt that Grafton St is the premier street of the country, and as such should be paved accordingly. Nothing avant-garde, nothing post-contemporary. Classy, understated, and maybe a little bit naive.

spacetweek

This project is urgently needed. Only a few wks ago I was pointing this out to the s0. The paving is in really bad shape and they appear to be constantly trying to patch it. Total rebuild needed as soon as possible.

AngryLips

Paving on Grafton Street has been in need of attention for some time. The ground beneath has subsided in many places making for an uneven surface with depressions and bumps everywhere.

What they really need to do is to pedestrianise everything between Grafton Street and Georges Street. Those streets get way more footfall than road traffic yet it seems the only reason to keep them open access is to keep the BT and Drury Street car parks in business.

Aard

@AngryLips:
There's a campaign called Dublin2Walk which aims at achieving exactly what you proposed. They keep access for the carparks though.

Imo, the entire area should be pedestrianised, and there could be a tunnel to the various carparks. A pipe-dream maybe, but having the street-level access is really a pain for peds. How many times I've nearly been killed passing the Brown Thomas exit I do not know.

Cathaoirleach

Aard wrote: »

Imo, the entire area should be pedestrianised, and there could be a tunnel to the various carparks.

Or we could just buy out the car parks. They should never have been given lifetime planning permission in the first place. They should be rezoned for mixed residential and retail use.

I hear the council are going to start repaving Fade Street first so they can test out the materials that will be used on Grafton St.

markpb

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Or we could just buy out the car parks. They should never have been given lifetime planning permission in the first place. They should be rezoned for mixed residential and retail use.

I don't think that's very realistic. I can't think of any major city that doesn't have car parks in the city centre. (Here are Paris and London for example.) As long as they're properly managed, there should be no problem with them. I disagree with the retailers who say that no-one would shop if they couldn't park nearby, likewise I disagree with people who think the city centre could survive without car parks.

Also, there's the small problem of cost. How much do you think it would be for the city to buy those car parks?

Aard

They could be closed down by alternative means, e.g. by putting a price cap on parking-rates so as to make them barely profitable. The owners would be likely to sell or convert them then.

But I think that would be cutting off our nose somewhat. I think multistorey carparks are good in the sense that they take cars that would otherwise be parked on the street. Many European cities have underground parking, or at the very least underground entry. The situation around Wicklow/Exchequer/Sth William is untenable. An example near me is this (http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.7009,7.266635&spn=0.001171,0.002411&z=19&layer=c&cbll=43.700889,7.266589&panoid=xOUpIPAZeY3pNrKfAzjk5A&cbp=12,81.68,,0,5.21): a street that used to intersect with the main thoroughfare has been made into a tunnel with pedestrian space around it. This could be done with the part of Exchequer St between George's and Dame Ct to allow access to Drury St Underground and Brown Thomas.

Tbh, the main problem is the Brown Thomas entry/exit system. Maybe we should just levy them on grounds of Health & Safety! It's not like they wouldn't have the money...

Cathaoirleach

It would be a longterm plan, but the council could move the 4 carparks from the Grafton Street area to new plots in and around Aungier St and Bride St under some sort of concession.

The old car parks would then be redeveloped into high desitiy residential / commercial and the car park owners could get a piece of the pie. It would have to be a sweet enough deal for them to budge.

I strongly believe that Wicklow/Exchequer and Clarendon should be fully pedestrianised. They have so much potential but are wasted because of access to these fecking car parks.

AngryLips

markpb wrote: »

I disagree with the retailers who say that no-one would shop if they couldn't park nearby

Actually, I think retailers in the area are generally in favour of padestrianising the area between Grafton Street and Georges Street ...for a change.

Cathaoirleach

markpb wrote: »

I disagree with people who think the city centre could survive without car parks.

It's the short-sighted gombeens like Colm Carroll and his plastic tat shop that don't want the removal of car parks, don't want Luas, don't want Metro, don't want bus gate, don't want anything that will stop them from making a cheap buck. All at the expense of the rest of the city that want to move forward.

superthingy

I have a crazy idea! How about they not pave Grafton st., and start fixing roads outside Dublin that are in a disastrous condition. The countrys border doens't end at the Dublin border

markpb

superthingy wrote: »

I have a crazy idea! How about they not pave Grafton st., and start fixing roads outside Dublin that are in a disastrous condition. The countrys border doens't end at the Dublin border

Dublin city council can't be expected to repave some other counties roads. Talk to your own local authority.

FreudianSlippers

superthingy wrote: »

I have a crazy idea! How about they not pave Grafton st., and start fixing roads outside Dublin that are in a disastrous condition. The countrys border doens't end at the Dublin border

The country has roads outside of Dublin... surely you mean the motorways?

hmmm

superthingy wrote: »

I have a crazy idea! How about they not pave Grafton st., and start fixing roads outside Dublin that are in a disastrous condition. The countrys border doens't end at the Dublin border

Grafton Street is one of the retail engines of Dublin, which in turn contributes tax to the Exchequer, which in turn spends a disproportionate amount of money patching up roads to nowhere located in the middle of nowhere.

The pavement on Grafton Street is awful at the moment, there is regularly bricks missing, when it rains the street is a disaster and the white paving has always been utterly lethal when wet.

They say it will take 4 years and seeing the speed Dublin council workers move at I can well understand it. Outsource it to the private sector and give them 4 weeks, and allow work between 10pm and 7am.

Cathaoirleach

The reason why it's going to take so long is because it's a revamp of not only Grafton Street, but all the streets between Grafton and Georges St.

As far as I know, DCC will be publishing a Public Realm Strategy for the entire area shortly.

dubhthach

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

The reason why it's going to take so long is because it's a revamp of not only Grafton Street, but all the streets between Grafton and Georges St.

As far as I know, DCC will be publishing a Public Realm Strategy for the entire area shortly.

Personally I'd pedestrianse the whole area between Grafton Street and George's street. However given the presence of BT carpark I don't know how they'd manage that.

Wild Bill

dubhthach wrote: »

However given the presence of BT carpark I don't know how they'd manage that.

Just get rid of the BT carpark?????

Cathaoirleach

Wild Bill wrote: »

Just get rid of the BT carpark?????

It'd be like buying out the West Link Toll Bridge - fúcking expensive.

Aard

It's not easy to just get rid of it. I'd imagine Brown Thomas would be up in arms, claiming it's an important revenue stream, and would be prepared to sue. I wonder how much they'd sell it for...

Pete_Cavan

dubhthach wrote: »

Personally I'd pedestrianse the whole area between Grafton Street and George's street. However given the presence of BT carpark I don't know how they'd manage that.

Dublin2Walk campaign, which Aard mentioned earlier in this thread, has proposals for accommodating the carparks in the area as part of the pedestrianisation.

Cathaoirleach

It would be a right pain the the ass to get rid of all those car parks, but BT's should be the first to go.

It's the only car park that prevents us from fully pedestrianising Clarendon Street and Wicklow Street. One retail store should not be allowed to hold back the development of an entire street.

bk

BTW most retailers in the area are massively in favour of pedestrianization.

A few months ago they had a reclaim the streets day where South William St was closed for the day to cars. Sales went up ten fold!!

mgmt

If there was plans to pedestrianise then the car park would probably voluntarily change business model given that there is more money in retail.

FreudianSlippers

IMO Exchequer and Clarendon street cannot and will not be without vehicular traffic. BT is not going to just give up their garage, but I'm actually OK with that if the rest of the streets were pedestrianised. It wouldn't be such a huge deal IMO to have somewhat of an access road.

Aard

bk wrote: »

BTW most retailers in the area are massively in favour of pedestrianization.

A few months ago they had a reclaim the streets day where South William St was closed for the day to cars. Sales went up ten fold!!

I'm not surprised that sales went up. Generally pedestrian traffic goes up around 30-40% once a street is pedestrianised. Obviously, the streets in question are prime targets for such a change, given the number of people on them and the difficulty of driving through them at certain times of the day.

Incidentally, if any retailers on Suffolk St begin to oppose the pedestrianisation plans, it's only because people will be drawn away from that car/bus-dominated street and into the safer, quieter streets.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

IMO Exchequer and Clarendon street cannot and will not be without vehicular traffic. BT is not going to just give up their garage, but I'm actually OK with that if the rest of the streets were pedestrianised. It wouldn't be such a huge deal IMO to have somewhat of an access road.

If they made the access roads a little ambiguous in their function too, it might slow the cars down and even discourage them, and cause Brown Thomas to think about redeveloping the carpark. I'm thinking like Sth William St in front of Powerscourt where the road is a kind of raised cobblestone setup that allows pedestrians to cross at will in this area of significant footfall.

hmmm

Wicklow street has turned into a gorgeous shopping street, full of quirky little shops that give a little character to Dublin, because otherwise it will look just like a British high street.

At busy times of the day the pedestrian flow is too much for the pavements as it is, and things aren't helped by idiots in cars pelting full throttle down the narrow road (or just as bad, cyclists going in the wrong direction up the street). Pedestrianisation would turn it into a fabulous area.

Godge

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

It would be a right pain the the ass to get rid of all those car parks, but BT's should be the first to go.

It's the only car park that prevents us from fully pedestrianising Clarendon Street and Wicklow Street. One retail store should not be allowed to hold back the development of an entire street.

What if Wicklow Street was made into access for Brown Thomas Car Park only i.e. on Clarendon St you had to turn into the car park and no through traffic was allowed?

pigtown

They should make it a pedestrian priority area like has been done on Lower Thomas St. and Little Catherine St. in Limerick.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/infomatique/5771303316/in/photostream/

Aard

That's pretty much what it's like at the Powerscourt entrance. Although I'd hope they wouldn't put road markings like that on the pavement.

JupiterKid

The red tiles on Grafton St are now really deteriorating and the paving is looking dated and tired. I well remember, as a 13 year old schoolboy, the red tiles being installed on Grafton St and they looked great back in 1988.

But that was 23 years ago and it's time for Grafton St. to move on. I would hate, hovever, to see dull grey granite replacing the tiles - how about a new surface of pink or red granite with a slightly rough surface for grip? The reddish colour distingiushed the street and gives it a sense of warmth that a grey surface does not. Also, a granite surface would be much harder wearing and require less maintenance work than small tiles.

I also think that the entire area between Grafton St and South Great Georges St should be pedstrianised but it is possible to over-pedestrianise an area as well. This will need to be thought out very carefully.

Ernest

The new paving shown in the photograph of Lower Thomas St. and Little Catherine St. in Limerick is HORRIBLE! Dull and dreary. Grafton Street's red tiles look nice and cheerful - unlike the ones in Henry Street ( Dublin ) all grey and black.
If the Grafton Street surface needs repair why not just do that: REPAIR what is broken instead of wasting money and FOUR YEARS to completely resurface it. And in replacing any tiles make sure the new ones are not slippery in the rain. And add a few yellow tiles too, as somebody suggested, to increase colour and brightness to the street.

Cathaoirleach

Well, that's what they've been doing all these years - repairing the brickwork, which has left us with patches, bumps and inconsistency. It's well over due an entire overhaul.

I'd also agree that they stick with the warm and cheerful red brick.

imme

pigtown wrote: »

They should make it a pedestrian priority area like has been done on Lower Thomas St. and Little Catherine St. in Limerick.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/infomatique/5771303316/in/photostream/

Cathedral Street beside the Pro Cathedral in Dublin looks a bit like that I think. Nothing too special, well done though, doesn't win my vote.