Blindfire in milsim

Stonewolf

I was chatting to a friend about this the other day and thought I'd stick up a thread about it.

So in skirmish for very good reasons there's no blindfire. It's no very fair if someone can spam out a hi-cap or boxmag around a corner with no scope for the enemy to return fire and in a skirmish fairness and balance are very important.

In most milsim though you're going to have limited ammo (all the ones I've played so far have used realcaps) and gunhits. Realcaps mean there's a limit to how much firepower a blindfirer can put out and gunhits mean it's possible (if difficult) to neutralise a blindfirer by hitting the gun.

With 20-40 rounds per magazine and the inherent inaccuracy of spraying around a corner at targets you can't see it's not likely to actually take anyone out but does work as a suppression tactic. In a milsim situation you're also striving for a more varied set of tactical options and this is something soldiers can and will do (along with shooting the opposite wall to create shrapnel).

So what do people think? Is there scope for allowing blindfire in a limited ammo, milsim environment where gunhits count?

Puding

personally blind fire is about safety more than anything else, just pointing an aeg with any capacity of magazine round a corner and firing without looking could possibility cause injury to someone just round the corner

blind firing is not really a tactical option in my eyes there is no reason in any game type for blind fire

FunkBlaster87

I thought people were against blind-firing in case you rammed your gun into someone's face. Or someones face just happened to be in front of your barrel.

Getting a mouth full of bbs would suck.

J.D.R

Also, I don't think marshals like it when they get sprayed by sombody sticking their M4 round the corner without looking.

Bernie Mac

yeah i have to agree with the top two statements from a marshals and players point of view blind fire has always been a safety thing more so than a tactical decision which in my mind is a very poor decision to make. if you have only limited ammo why try and waste that ammo by firing blindly when you could easily try and get some kills with your rounds as aegs or gbb for that matter not accurate.

Interesting point all the same i would say it should be allowed but for safety reasons frowned upon sort of like bang kills

Spetzcong

Interesting question, and an interesting point of view on blind firing, however, it is a safety decision to ban blind firing, so I reckon the rule is just as important in mil-sim as in a regular skirmish, it raises another question for me though, should riccochets count in milsim? In the real world riccochets kill and injure, in a regular skirmish with people spraying hi-caps all over the shop they don't count but with the emphasis in mil-sim on increased realism should hits from rebounding bbs be counted?

Puding

yes in real life ricochets and such can cause casualty's but its the same as taking cover behind a wooden door or a bush in airsoft, a some point practicality has to override, ricochets would be almost impossible to enforce and just confusing to plays, i watched bb easily bounce of a couple of concrete walls in sennybridge thought a window off a wall and into another room

also you just get far far to many ricochets in airsoft bb just bounce of everything

milsim from my experience is not about massive rule sets that replicate every facet of real life engagements the best ones i;ve come across are normally the most stream line and simple, if you have the right mind set of players there is no need for 101 rules, if you need all the rules then your more than likely doing something wrong, always say it but milsim is not defined by an ammo limit or rules set but by the plays and the mindset they bring to the field

TheDoc

Interesting topic, hopefully it can stay civil.

Playing devils advocate, I can entirely see the times you would want to blind fire and could to tactical use in games.

Obviously without doubt its a safety rule, without knowing you could be dropping your barell in some poor lads mush or nuts.

But in certain situations it cannot be faulted for its use. Bit of sporadic firing over the top will do a world of good keeping the enemy thinking twice about moving.

And we have all had those moments where we have had a peek and seen someones position, the easy safe option is sliping that pistol round the corner and letting some shots loose, rather then releasing your complete right/left side exposed to fire.

I guess it shout be pointed out that Stonewolf was part of the hrta ops weekend, and is part of a core of players who are trying to think outside the box, and its well commended. Puding is very correct in one aspect that its about the mindsets and players there.

Now theres no doubt that when paul first started pushing milsim in HRTA, things werent complicated, it was about getting people into the idea, the thought process of a milsim.

But after time its evident we keep seeing the same type of players coming back to the milsim games there, plus some added few. One of the things I was hearing positively from the new players over that weekend is that they embraced and enjoyed the indepth rule sets. I know me personally, I enjoy them more too.

Taking this building and that building, this point and that can be a bit, meh. Throwing some optional stuff in there to give people options is great and as I'm always saying, for me milsim isnt about a person taking players by the hand through a script, its about the organiser putting tools and rules in place, to let the players imaginations and creativity go wild.

Blind fire is a tough one. I can definitly see the advantages of allowing it, but I can fully understand the reasons why its not. And I know I'm always at times like " whatcha mean you cant use a rubber knife you bag of pussies" ( although never said it like that, but it seems how its interpreted) I can genuinely see the dangers of letting blind fire go rag tag.

Wolf its a very interesting concept, but one I think should be probably tested out in a closed game. Much like the rubber knife syndrome, once you allow it I dont think youd see everyone doing it every second, but it is a main stay in the safety rulesets for the game.

Nice to see interesting open minded conversations looking at some of the gameplay mechanics of the game, will watch this with interest

evilrobotshane

Does anybody actually know the reason for the no blind fire rule? Is it that people might get hit from short range by the BBs? That you might hit somebody with your gun? What?

When I play airsoft I'm prepared to get hit by BBs. They're not going to hurt me, they're going at less than a Joule.

I suppose the test required is when will it actually get used. Will it be when there's several positions pinning you? Great, go for your life, I reckon. Will it be almost exclusively when you're at a wall of a building and you think there's someone sneaking up on you along a perpendicular wall? That's likely to cause aggro.

It has potential to be an overpowered tactic, I think, with an abundance of ammo in the magazine, allowing you to spray for a long time. But I'd definitely like to try it out for real-capacity loads. People get use out of it in real life, and they're much better at gun combat than we are.

Inari

Specific to MilSim, I'd say it would be valid and not likely to cause safety issues, largely due to everyone being on the same page, and knowing that someone blind firing is a possibility, so to err on the side of caution.

I think it is only applicable in MilSim due to the ammo limitations, and the mindset of the players

Blazer

evilrobotshane wrote: »

Does anybody actually know the reason for the no blind fire rule? Is it that people might get hit from short range by the BBs? That you might hit somebody with your gun? What?

When I play airsoft I'm prepared to get hit by BBs. They're not going to hurt me, they're going at less than a Joule.

I was shot in the face at about 30 feet with about 5 bb's.
Yes it did hurt...and yes it drew blood as well.

So I can imagine some guy blindfiring and hitting a guy in the face at 5 or 10 feet is really really going to hurt..

Stercus Accidit

Blind fire is an obvious safety concern, people would dump a whole magazine, not seeing the people they would hose down with bb's.

If you empty a mag into someone from 2ft away you should be banned from ever playing the game again, doing that while waving an aeg round a corner is just as bad for the person on the receiving end.

It shows an utter lack of respect for others playing the game to disregard them so much. It should be so obvious why its not on, I have bled from short range face hits, only two of them, in cqb, swap that out for 30-40 hits from some idiot who doesn't even know how many people he has hit round the corner and you have really bad injuries, faces pumping blood and so on.

Its stupid and ignorant, that's why its banned. Its one less way people can be gobshites in airsoft, and that's to be welcomed.

gandalf

Blind firing is wrong because of safety. Getting hit in the face by bb's can be quite painful (and I have normally been shot in the face at around 30-50ft). I can only imagine how painful it is at point blank range.

Also shoving an AEG or GBB around the corner with no idea on whether someone is standing there is not a good idea. I don't think you need to look beyond those reasons tbh, they make sense to me.

Sod'o swords

I don't think the OP was questioning the rule, or demanding it be removed, he's well aware of the Safety aspect of it as are all of us here. His suggestion is for milsim games where people have been playing a while, know the rules, arn't window lickers and in games where they don't even have 30-40 rounds to fire blindly around a corner.

It's an interesting idea, but i think Pudding gave a good point, or so this is what i took from it. Yes in real life there might be situations where sticking your gun around a corner and firing off a shot or two would work well, and probably in airsoft too, but like trying to count Ricochets you have to dry the line sometimes in airsoft when it comes to realism.

Also of course taking into account the obvious safety concerns it's probably best not to allow in games.

Puding

Sod'o swords wrote: »

I don't think the OP was questioning the rule, or demanding it be removed, he's well aware of the Safety aspect of it as are all of us here. His suggestion is for milsim games where people have been playing a while, know the rules, arn't window lickers and in games where they don't even have 30-40 rounds to fire blindly around a corner.

It's an interesting idea, but i think Pudding gave a good point, or so this is what i took from it. Yes in real life there might be situations where sticking your gun around a corner and firing off a shot or two would work well, and probably in airsoft too, but like trying to count Ricochets you have to dry the line sometimes in airsoft when it comes to realism.

Also of course taking into account the obvious safety concerns it's probably best not to allow in games.

ammo capacity and rule type does not really come into it, i can fire 100bb from a mid in one go, a lot of hicaps do not allow that in one go without winding

blind fireing semi or auto of any amount for safety in all rules sets is best left on the bench, there is no safe ammo limit to do this with

hrta

The Blind fire rule, could not be taken out of a game, it's there in case the person you are shooting might have removed there eye wear, thats what the blind fire rule is for.

Paul.

Puding

hrta wrote: »

The Blind fire rule, could not be taken out of a game, it's there in case the person you are shooting might have removed there eye wear, thats what the blind fire rule is for.

Paul.

tbh thats circumstance had not really crossed my mind, but defiantly another good reason for the rule

Inari

That's a very fair point, and one I'd only briefly considered. Blind firing means you're completely blind, and unawares as to what lies ahead. You could be firing at an injured party, someone without eye-wear, or nailing someone close range.

However, don't a lot of people do the same thing with M203's? Firing where you cannot see everything etc? The power is lessened etc, but it can still be firing blind. And on the note of m203s, what would the consensus be with regard to blind firing using those? Lets say your penned down on a hill. Firing at an angle, where you can't technically see...could get you out of a tight spot

hrta

Inari wrote: »

That's a very fair point, and one I'd only briefly considered. Blind firing means you're completely blind, and unawares as to what lies ahead. You could be firing at an injured party, someone without eye-wear, or nailing someone close range.

However, don't a lot of people do the same thing with M203's? Firing where you cannot see everything etc? The power is lessened etc, but it can still be firing blind. And on the note of m203s, what would the consensus be with regard to blind firing using those? Lets say your penned down on a hill. Firing at an angle, where you can't technically see...could get you out of a tight spot

It's a good point, but as the rules state, you should only shoot at what you can see to be a player in game and have eye wear in place.

Sod'o swords

Puding wrote: »

ammo capacity and rule type does not really come into it, i can fire 100bb from a mid in one go, a lot of hicaps do not allow that in one go without winding

blind fireing semi or auto of any amount for safety in all rules sets is best left on the bench, there is no safe ammo limit to do this with

Well I was really replying to Sam's post about getting 30-40 bb's point blank, and as suggested by the OP the games where the rule would be removed would be Milsim games where ammo limits would be 30 rounds, and no one would ever really empty a mag in one go, let alone around a corner.

I still agree with everyone that the Safety issues largely out weight any dimension it would add to the game.

Just it seemed everyone was dismissing it as a silly idea and i could see where the OP was coming from.

Stonewolf

Sod'o swords wrote: »

Just it seemed everyone was dismissing it as a silly idea and i could see where the OP was coming from.

Thanks, I wanted to strike up a little constructive debate. The safety issues are all perfectly valid but it's good to sometimes question why we do things and if that way is right.

sliabh

Inari wrote: »

However, don't a lot of people do the same thing with M203's? Firing where you cannot see everything etc? The power is lessened etc, but it can still be firing blind.

From what I have seen of them, the range is so poor that to totally blind fire it would have to be something like shooting them in the air to rain down on the far side of a wall. Then the bbs would pretty much just be falling under gravity.

Genghiz Cohen

The rule, last time I was at HRTA was you must be looking down the sights of your gun.

But pieing a corner like that leaves your entire arm and half your head exposed.
Is it unreasonable to hold the gun lower than your shoulder and slightly away from you to get the muzzle and your eye around a corner to fire?

Gray

OP has a valid question in a milsim real cap scenario as blind fire is used as a suppression tactic in real life. However as we are only playing a game H&S considerations must come first no mater how realistic we would like to make it.

The thing is during a normal safety brief we are told blind fire is not allowed without elaborating on the reasons (could last longer than the game if we went into every detail). This can lead to people quite reasonably asking why do we do do this? & it is nice to see a reasoned debate on a subject.

Personally in a real-cap scenario I would not mind giving it a try as long as every one is happy with the risks mentioned above. Certainly more enjoyable than facing a 3000 rnd box mag on an AK47 (flank em while they can't see what your doing).

On a related subject of realism in game play why are you dead when shot in the foot? (carry on firing but can't move).There are plenty of extra rules we could put in place to add realism but would it make the game better or just more complicated?.

Just a few inebriated thoughts I may edit later

Zen 2nd

Gray wrote: »

On a related subject of realism in game play why are you dead when shot in the foot? (carry on firing but can't move).There are plenty of extra rules we could put in place to add realism but would it make the game better or just more complicated?.

It would make the game a lot more complicated. A shot to the leg for one person could just be a wound, a shot to the leg for another person could have hit an important vein and you bleed to death.

Also generally if you are shot anywhere in real life you are taken out of battle and seen by a medic.

Puding

it is hard enough at times to tell if you hit at times let alone its location, at the last few event it was more down to sound of impact, bb landing nearby or others being hit

but you can introduce this aspect in another way as ta events have done, they use a randon medic card you pick up at eash respawn to let you know where your hit and how this effects your bleed out time, movement and treatment type

have a read
http://www.ta-events.co.uk/battlesim/ -- bottom of the page

http://www.ta-events.co.uk/rules/#casualtiesmedics

StevieGriff

Shooting 101:
Know your targets foreground and background..

Plus blind fire would just promote camping, why move when you can throw your 30rps M4 with a 5000 round testicle mag over a wall and just hose every now and then.

Lemming

StevieGriff wrote: »

Shooting 101:
Know your targets foreground and background..

QFT.

If someone is around that corner, with eye protection removed for whatever reason (emergency or carelessness ... it doesn't matter), and you open up on them and maim them, how would you feel? Could you tell yourself "I was entitled to blind fire. It's a legitimate tactic and it's his fault for not having eye protection on despite the fact this is only a game and I couldn't see him and fired indiscriminately anyway" ?

What about if the target is facing theother way and you unload several shots point blank into the back of their head. How'd you feel about that? I've had someone carelessly fire at the back of my head point blank (i.e. from less than five foot) whilst I was clearly visible AND on their team at Ground-Zero's weekender event in 2007. It hurts like bollocks.

hrta

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

The rule, last time I was at HRTA was you must be looking down the sights of your gun.

But pieing a corner like that leaves your entire arm and half your head exposed.
Is it unreasonable to hold the gun lower than your shoulder and slightly away from you to get the muzzle and your eye around a corner to fire?

It has been the best way so far to get the point across to new players, as they seen to think if you can see miles down a field, it's not blind firing,
As for slicing the pie, thats a tactic that lets you get more sight around a corner, and you should have your gun at the ready, as your gun should be were your head is at, As reaction time is very important, so you Keep your gun in front of you at all times, And you never look away from your gun,
it's much easier to depress the trigger than to look, and have to swing your gun to your target, and then depress the trigger.

Stonewolf

StevieGriff wrote: »

Plus blind fire would just promote camping, why move when you can throw your 30rps M4 with a 5000 round testicle mag over a wall and just hose every now and then.

We were specifically talking about scenarios where such firepower is unavailable.

Hivemind187

Stonewolf wrote: »

We were specifically talking about scenarios where such firepower is unavailable.

Trust me ... you arent.

Once you make it ok in one kind of game people start to think they can do it in any game. It doesnt matter if you say "oh just experienced players" - they can be some of the worst offenders.

Introducing any leniency in the rules, any grey areas always results in a slackening of control throughout the system. I've seen this myself - I've even been guilty of causing it.

Blindfire has been against the rules since the start for the safety reasons given before, just like rubber knives and bayonets.

It is also begging to be exploited because the shooter cant observe if he has hit anyone and therefore those hits are more likely to be ignored by certain problem players (you know who you are MilSim player or not!).