Marathon Training Plan

RubyK

I'm looking for some advice as a marathon first-timer - DCM 2010. I've looked at the Hal Higdon plan, and it goes to a max of 20 miles. Are there any recommended guides that go nearer the 26.2 miles? I know people say on the day, you'll find the extra and get the 26.2, but I am the type of person, who needs to know they have done the distance before, iykwim. It's a confidence thing.

I did two 14 milers before the half-marathon, and really felt going the distance beforehand, helped me (even if it was just in my head ).

Obviously, I realise there is a big difference between the half and full. So am I just being stupid, should I just stick with Mr Higdon? Is it asking for trouble by doing the full distance 3 weeks or so before?

I'm hoping for sub 4 hrs. Any advice would be much appreciated.

meathcountysec

Like you I'm aiming for my first marathon this year. I looked at the HH plan but didn't like the fact that it only included one 20 mile run before the big day. I'm using an Advanced Beginner's plan from Glover's The Competitive Runners Handbook. It includes 1 x 18 mile and 3 x 20 mile.

I would be very wary of going the full distance (no matter what the pace) so soon before the day of your target race. 2 marathons in 3 weeks is a big ask of many longer-term runners and not a prospect that a first-timer should consider.

Good luck in your search for the perfect training plan.

MCS

NeedsTraining

Hi Ruby,

I am by no means an expert, but my experience is that going to 20 miles is sufficient.

I have rUn 5 marathons and for the first one I went to 24 miles, which was a big mistake. I did this 4 weeks before the marathon, and it took me nearly 3 of those to recover.
For each of the following marathons, I only went to 20 miles and felt a whole lot better.
Now, there could have been other factors, general fitness etc that affected me first time around.

Anyway, the Hal Higdon plan is good and I would recommend it.

Best of luck in your training.

NT

shels4ever

Hi there,
Unless your used to big miles or close to elite level i'd tend to stay away from doing 26 mile training runs. Mostly due to the fact that the recovery time for long runs will take a while .

I know the idea of knowing you can do the distance would help on the day,but also if you know you can do a 20/22 mile run and feel good after it will also help.l
Remember your long run during your plan will be part of a weekly training and marathon week you will be in taper mode so the extra 4-6 miles won't cause you too much trouble . Better getting to the starting linefresh then over trained or injured..

Krusty_Clown

RubyK wrote: »

So am I just being stupid, should I just stick with Mr Higdon? Is it asking for trouble by doing the full distance 3 weeks or so before?

Yes, yes and yes.
It's not the same as doing a half-marathon. Running the distance three weeks beforehand would be counter-productive and will just make the run much harder for you on the day. Instead of aiming to complete your first marathon, you'll still be recovering from your training run three weeks previous. Instead of focusing on covering the distance, try to run close to the amount of time you will be running for the marathon. So run your 20 mile runs at a pace that gets you close to four hours.

RubyK

Thanks for the replies

Re-reading my post, it does sound ludicrous to attempt the distance, as a first-timer I think I'll just have to get my head straight, and stick with Hals plan. I'm sure he knows what he's on about!

Best of luck with your training MCS!

NT, 5 marathons, that's a lot of dedication, fair play.

RubyK

Thanks Krusty & Shels4ever, sounds like great advice, appreciate it

NeedsTraining

Ruby, there are guys on here with a lot more than my 5. They would consider me to be a novice

Hope the training goes well and hope to be on the start line for DCM myself.

tunguska

RubyK wrote: »

Thanks for the replies

Re-reading my post, it does sound ludicrous to attempt the distance, as a first-timer I think I'll just have to get my head straight, and stick with Hals plan. I'm sure he knows what he's on about!

Best of luck with your training MCS!

NT, 5 marathons, that's a lot of dedication, fair play.

Can of worms probably being opened here but I cant resist throwing my own two cets worth in...............

I think you had the right idea in the first plce Rubyk but now youre doubting yourself after what others have said. But you have to trust your own instincts and yours were telling you that doing 26 miles in training would be a good idea. Go with that feeling and do your own thing. Its a 26 mile race so why would you not run 26miles in training? I think its crazy not to do the full distance in training, youre leaving too much to chance on the day of the race otherwise. For the 1984 olympics John Treacy ran 26 mile training runs and even a couple of 29milers.
Training plans are all well and good but I just think people can let a plan or what a so called expert says completely control what they do. I think you should always listen to yourself and do your own thing. I mean you may make mistakes but theres lessons you have to learn for yourself through direct experience. Somebody else might not be able to handle 26 miles training runs but you might but theres only one way to find out. Nobody can tell you that you cant do something, only you can determine your limits. It takes courage to go with your instincts and do your own thing when others are telling you not to go there. But he/she who dares wins. Go for it.

T runner

tunguska wrote: »

Can of worms probably being opened here but I cant resist throwing my own two cets worth in...............

I think you had the right idea in the first plce Rubyk but now youre doubting yourself after what others have said. But you have to trust your own instincts and yours were telling you that doing 26 miles in training would be a good idea. Go with that feeling and do your own thing. Its a 26 mile race so why would you not run 26miles in training? I think its crazy not to do the full distance in training, youre leaving too much to chance on the day of the race otherwise. For the 1984 olympics John Treacy ran 26 mile training runs and even a couple of 29milers.
Training plans are all well and good but I just think people can let a plan or what a so called expert says completely control what they do. I think you should always listen to yourself and do your own thing. I mean you may make mistakes but theres lessons you have to learn for yourself through direct experience. Somebody else might not be able to handle 26 miles training runs but you might but theres only one way to find out. Nobody can tell you that you cant do something, only you can determine your limits. It takes courage to go with your instincts and do your own thing when others are telling you not to go there. But he/she who dares wins. Go for it.

I think its best to look at it a different way.

John Treacy ran a few 3 hour training runs before his Olympic Marathon.

If John treacy had entered a 5 hour race for him (55 miles) then he would have not have ran 55 mile (5 hour) training runs or 6 hour training runs to prepare.

A 10 mile run will prepare you for a 13 mile run. And a 20 mile run will prepare you for a 26 mile run. A 26 mile run or higher will only prepare someone at the elite level and even at this level it is quite rare.

TheRoadRunner

tunguska wrote: »

Can of worms probably being opened here but I cant resist throwing my own two cets worth in...............

oh oh I'd have to disagree with tunguska but every man for himself.

While running the distance in training might work for some (and I'm guessing it is a small minority) I think the risks associated with injury could be quite high. You also run the risk of leaving your race performance in training. I know a person who was ran the full marathon distance 3 times in the last 8 weeks of her program and was flying them. But when it came to race day she bombed out. She had nothing in the tank

shels4ever

tunguska wrote: »

For the 1984 olympics John Treacy ran 26 mile training runs and even a couple of 29milers.

Everyone loves a can of worms

I do see where you coming from here but if you think about John Tracey is not really average joe . Not many people can win an olympic medal with the debut.

When it comes to elite level running your idea would be fine. If you think about it a 29 mile training run for John T would have still been well under a 3hour run i'm guessing.

For anyone looking to run a 4hour marathon a long run of 26 miles would be in around 4.30/4:40 level. Most people who are doing this would be doing maybe a weeking mileage of 30/40 miles and to do a 26 mile training run would take a huge amount out of them. Never mind almost 5 hours on your feet would take a huge amount out of you and eat into your gyclogen levels big time.

Over time if your body allows it well and good.But its just my view on the whole thing and i've never ran a good marathon.... yet.

The Hammer

i was speaking to a fella at Kilcoole 5k and he had ran a few marathons, he done a 22, 24, 26, 28 and 30 miler in training. and reckoned that it was the making of his marathon.
again im not one to say whether that's right or wrong. but it does makes sense to run the distance in training.

ecoli

Déjá vu i think i have been here before tunguska:p

I think regarding the John Treacy analogy you must also take into account the fact that he had spent years developing a high aerobic level even from an early age with his famous 12k runs to school every day. This is similar to the Kenyans in there high mileage at early age. These years develop the aerobic capacity to cope with these longer runs with less of a glycogen depletion (total GD usually begins around 18 mile hence the famous "wall" which people hit. The average western civilization runner does not have these years of aerobic development and most of the time the body cannot recover as easily.

there are exceptions to this of course (you being one) but given this is Ruby's first marathon i think it might be best to err on the side of caution for the first one and maybe try this in a later plan (maybe earlier in the plan to allow the body to properly recover before the target race).

Oryx

RubyK, you have two different camps here with two different suggestions for ya. But this is a personal thing. Ive only done one mara, DCM '09, so Im a baby compared to these guys, but you are where I was this time last year.

I used the training plan here, with --amadeus--. I think that was based on HH though. My longest run was 19.5 miles, and still, I had a great marathon, finished the bloody thing at a sprint. (then died with pain, naturally ).

The reason I didnt even do a 20 miler was because the marathon training took a huge toll on me, I was drained from it. A 26 mile run would have taken the good out of me and ruined the whole plan. You may find that happens, maybe not, but the latter stages before taper are tough, and you may find 26 mile plus training less appealing when your getting to that stage. There are many ways to train, some use mileage, some use time, some use shorter runs but more of them, etc. There is no perfect way.

All I would say is that if you want to throw in longer training runs, then find a plan that includes them NOW. Dont just go ahead as you are with HH and then extend the lsr runs later on. Youll need a plan that is designed with longer prep runs in it, imo.

Krusty_Clown

The Hammer wrote: »

i was speaking to a fella at Kilcoole 5k and he had ran a few marathons, he done a 22, 24, 26, 28 and 30 miler in training. and reckoned that it was the making of his marathon.
again im not one to say whether that's right or wrong. but it does makes sense to run the distance in training.

Was he a first timer heading into a 4 hour marathon?

The Hammer

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Was he a first timer heading into a 4 hour marathon?

no this is true, he is a 2:40 marathoner so horses for courses.
i probably should have read the full thread

RubyK

Thanks for the replies (and Tunguska, with his can of worms ).

I've taken all advice on board, and will continue with HH novice plan.

Thanks again for all your help

Krusty_Clown

I did think that the Hal Higdon Novice plan was a bit soft (more of a 'survival' program), so if you feel up to it, you could try and work up to doing a couple of 20 mile runs (instead of just the one). The more 20s you do, the better endurance base you will have, and will find it easier on the day. This is just my opinion, but I do come from a pretty similar running background to your own.

RubyK

Thanks Krusty, I'll do that alright. I might up week 13.

I'm nervous about it, and it's only July

RayCun

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I did think that the Hal Higdon Novice plan was a bit soft (more of a 'survival' program), so if you feel up to it, you could try and work up to doing a couple of 20 mile runs (instead of just the one).

I was a bit worried about that, so I added a mile or two to most of my long runs, giving me 3x20 runs in the Novice2 plan. (I think I'll end up dropping one of them for the half marathon)
Of course, they're still just on paper so far...

meathcountysec

RubyK

Attached is the bones of the Glover Advanced Beginner Plan. It’s a 16 weeker, starting last Monday 5th July. It includes 1 x 18 mile and 3 x 20 mile.

May be of some use to you.

RubyK

Thanks for that MCS, I'll have a look now!

RubyK

Looks like a good plan MCS, I've printed it off, and I'll be putting it on the fridge

BennyMul

Please forgive me here if this is incorrect I am new to marathons and the theory behind the training.

But my main concern with the assumption of 20 miles max will suffice, is that this leaves 6.2 miles of the unknown, that’s approx 50min of running where your body have never been.
Doing a number of 22's or ever a 24 reduces this unknown and you have the mental knowledge and believe that all that’s left is a “short” 3 mile run.

ecoli

BennyMul wrote: »

Please forgive me here if this is incorrect I am new to marathons and the theory behind the training.

But my main concern with the assumption of 20 miles max will suffice, is that this leaves 6.2 miles of the unknown, that’s approx 50min of running where your body have never been.
Doing a number of 22's or ever a 24 reduces this unknown and you have the mental knowledge and believe that all that’s left is a “short” 3 mile run.

With 20 mile runs during your plan you dont have 2-3 weeks of tapering to allow your body to be fully rested. Also take into account the race nerves which will give you a further boost and the fact that your 20 mile run is normally run alone/ in a small group as opposed to the atmosphere of a big city marathon with 1000s of supporting fans. These factors usually help to make up the allowance of the last 6 mile

Krusty_Clown

Well, here's the thing (my opinion from my limited experience only. I'm no self-proclaimed expert!). Tunguska's not entirely wrong in his can of worms suggestion. If you want to train for a marathon, then obviously the more mileage you do in preparation for the race the better. That's if, and only if you can avoid injury and you have enough time to recover before the all-important race (and as someone previously pointed out, don't peak too early).

If someone is approaching their first marathon, and like most of us here is new to running (last 1-5 years), you just quite simply won't be able to run a 26-29 mile run beforehand, without either causing injury or impacting performance. So at the end of the day, it's a trade-off. Maximize mileage while minimizing risk of injury and impact.

John Treacy can manage this as he typically would have run 120-150 miles per week, so in relative terms 26 - 29 miles is nothing. Tunguska may be able to manage this as he may have a significantly higher mileage base (I don't know). The one thing that is certain, as the mileage goes up, so does the risk of injury before you ever see the starting line.

The opposite end of the scale is also true. I think it was Hunnymonster herself who once posted that she ran her first marathon having never done a training run longer than 10k on the treadmill. The trade-off here is that you increase your risk of injury during the race and will likely not be sufficiently prepared for the physical demands of the race.

So again, it's a fine balance. Once you have completed a couple of marathons you get a feel for what kind of mileage you can do without hurting your chances. But without that knowledge you have to follow some kind of plan and impose some kind of minimum and maximum mileage constraints, to give yourself the best possible chance. Follow a plan as a template, and monitor your progress as you go along. Add or subtract mileage as you make progress. A plan is just a starting point rather than a guiding force.

TheRoadRunner

BennyMul wrote: »

But my main concern with the assumption of 20 miles max will suffice, is that this leaves 6.2 miles of the unknown, that’s approx 50min of running where your body have never been.
Doing a number of 22's or ever a 24 reduces this unknown and you have the mental knowledge and believe that all that’s left is a “short” 3 mile run.

True but the 20 mile runs are only part of a training week. Generally I do 10 miles the day before a long run and my legs are usually already tired from a longish mid week run, intervals etc. Also I run the following day. So while I never run 26 miles in one go (apart from race day) it is possible to simulate the tiredness you feel without running the risk of getting injured.

Having said all that, if I could run 30 mile training runs I would but I know my body would break down and get injured. I think the majority of runners and especially newbies would be similar. I suppose there is only one way to find out if this is true for you but you have to be willing to accept the consequences if it doesn't work out.

meathcountysec

RubyK wrote: »

Looks like a good plan MCS, I've printed it off, and I'll be putting it on the fridge

Also available in Kms if required:D

RubyK

meathcountysec wrote: »

Also available in Kms if required:D

Cheers MCS, but I work in miles Thanks again for the plan/help!

Krusty_Clown

meathcountysec wrote: »

RubyK

Attached is the bones of the Glover Advanced Beginner Plan. It’s a 16 weeker, starting last Monday 5th July. It includes 1 x 18 mile and 3 x 20 mile.

May be of some use to you.

Nice plan, but I don't understand the purpose of the 'actual' column.

meathcountysec

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Nice plan, but I don't understand the purpose of the 'actual' column.

Its so that you can record what distance you actually ran.

opus

I took a look at the training spreadsheet I kept for the Cork marathon & I did four 20 mile+ runs leading up to it :- 20.5, 21, 22 & 23. Last one was three weeks beforehand. Will admit it did boost my confidence that I'd make it to the finish line after I did the 23 mile one as figured I'd surely be able to mange another 3 and a bit miles on the day!

That was just my own experience, only running since last Nov so very much a newbie

Krusty_Clown

meathcountysec wrote: »

Its so that you can record what distance you actually ran.

That just sounds like weakness. you run what you plan to run. :rolleyes:

RubyK

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That just sounds like weakness. you run what you plan to run. :rolleyes:

Or maybe you'll go further than the plan, and get a little satisfaction in doing so

meathcountysec

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That just sounds like weakness. you run what you plan to run. :rolleyes:

I'm most dreadfully embarassed:o:o:o

However, in my defence, it is possible to run more than planned and it is nice to record that too.